Against Black's 4th File Rook
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Matt Hall
May 19, 2020, 5:21:01 PM5/19/20
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Hi folks,
Wondering if anyone has advice about responding to Black's 4th file rook, which is a strategy that I am (for some reason) seeing frequently these days.
I've been responding to it with a third file rook strategy, which seems to work ok, but I am worried that I am merely getting lucky and possibly playing a losing strategy. If sankenbisha is not a correct response to black's 4th file rook, if someone could offer a different ranging rook strategy, that would be great. One issue, in particular, that I struggle with, in terms of any ranging rook response to this strategy, is how to castle. If black were playing 3rd file rook, then I usually try to make Yagura on the right side, but with black's rook on the 4th file, Yagura does not feel natural. I seem to remember one option being making Mino castle, and then keeping the king on 71 instead of 82 -- like having a low built castle is somehow advantageous. I haven't been able to re-discover the reference I saw that tactic in, however. As always, any tips are greatly appreciated! kifu for reference: https://kifu.co/pJp9
Kind regards,
Matt
captbirdseye
May 20, 2020, 12:26:32 AM5/20/20
to SHOGI-L
On Tuesday, 19 May 2020 22:21:01 UTC+1, Matt Hall wrote:
Wondering if anyone has advice about responding to Black's 4th file rook, which is a strategy that I am (for
some reason) seeing frequently these days.
The Wikipedia article:
it is relatively brief, but may be of interest?
I have a digest of some of the articles in Shogi magazine which deal with Ranging Rook openings. I could post
a link here if you were interested...
RJH
Matt Hall
May 20, 2020, 4:27:43 PM5/20/20
to SHOGI-L
RJH, thank you very much. I'll check out the Wikipedia article, and I would love to read the digest from Shogi Magazine. Is it still in print? Always looking for more Shogi resources to devour!
-- Matt
captbirdseye
May 21, 2020, 1:25:19 AM5/21/20
to SHOGI-L
On Wednesday, 20 May 2020 21:27:43 UTC+1, Matt Hall wrote:
RJH, thank you very much. I'll check out the Wikipedia article, and I would love to read the digest from Shogi Magazine.
Is it still in print? Always looking for more Shogi resources to devour!
The digest of articles to which I refer is available on my Shogi archive:
Look for the document:
Shogi Openings Ranging Rook.pdf
There is a section in there about 4th file Rook
There is a lot more material there including DIY templates to make your own boards/pieces, rules leaflets, etc.
Digests of copyright material have been prepared with the permission of the copyright owners. Other copyright
material is included because it is freely available elsewhere on the internet.
Shogi magazine is no longer published. A (paid-for) zipped download of PDF page scans of all 70 issues of
the magazine is available from Angela Hodges (george dot hodges at talk21 dot com).
Matt Hall
May 22, 2020, 3:33:21 PM5/22/20
to SHOGI-L
RJH,
What an absolutely fantastic resource you have posted. With emphasis, thank you!
It is a shame that Shogi magazine is no longer in print -- I'd love to see a resurrection some day.
captbirdseye
May 23, 2020, 2:36:03 AM5/23/20
to SHOGI-L
On Friday, 22 May 2020 20:33:21 UTC+1, Matt Hall wrote:
RJH,
What an absolutely fantastic resource you have posted. With emphasis, thank you!
We do our best. Thank you for those kind words. Please tell all your friends...😎
It is a shame that Shogi magazine is no longer in print -- I'd love to see a resurrection some day
Remember, I said "A (paid-for) zipped download of PDF page scans of all 70 issues of
the magazine is available from Angela Hodges (george dot hodges at talk21 dot com)."
I have paper copies of the magazine myself, but I have no reason to suppose that this mechanism
will not work.
Roger
captbirdseye
May 23, 2020, 4:37:41 AM5/23/20
to SHOGI-L
On Saturday, 23 May 2020 07:36:03 UTC+1, captbirdseye wrote:
Remember, I said "A (paid-for) zipped download of PDF page scans of all 70 issues ofthe magazine is available from Angela Hodges (george dot hodges at talk21 dot com)."
A follow-up to my own message. For any who don't know, Shogi was published from the mid-70s to the
mid-80s. 70 20-page issues. If you subtract 200-300 pages for front/back covers and advertisements,
that makes ~1100 close-packed A4 pages of information about Shogi. OK, it's 'dated', but any amateur
Shogi player who absorbs even 10% of the material here, will be a pretty strong Shogi player! The download
is strongly recommended!
To Matt Hall: I forgot to say, if you find any typos, etc. in the 4th File Rook stuff (or anywhere else for that
matter), please let me know - it takes time but I always respond to that sort of feed-back.
Roger
johnnymam
Jul 14, 2020, 10:31:11 PM7/14/20
to SHOGI-L
Ranging rook openings may be a bit overrated or their advantages not well understood scientifically. Best bet is to analyze
how high-level AI programs play and respond to ranging rook openings, since these programs are superior to human
players. The emphasis in shogi openings is usually defensive, with players being careful to work on shoring up defenses
and making sure that each piece, particularly pawns, are protected, often by moving generals to the second rank. Moving
a rook is often of minor importance in the opening, although sometimes an opening is played where a rook pawn
is advanced far enough to be captured by the opponent's pawn, after which the rook moves to capture the opponent's
pawn. Castling can be overrated as well. The problem with castling is that multiple turns are needed to form a castle,
and these turns instead can be used for shoring up defenses, or for low-level offense attacks. There is the opportunity
cost of using up turns to form castle structures, versus using those turns to shore up defenses or to attack. However,
if an opponent is using up many turns to form a castle, a player may not incur a tactical disadvantage by also using
up turns to form a castle. One should not automatically form a castle, but evaluate the cost/benefit of using up turns
for forming a castle at a particular point in the game. High level AI players seem to go against classical theories in
some situations.
how high-level AI programs play and respond to ranging rook openings, since these programs are superior to human
players. The emphasis in shogi openings is usually defensive, with players being careful to work on shoring up defenses
and making sure that each piece, particularly pawns, are protected, often by moving generals to the second rank. Moving
a rook is often of minor importance in the opening, although sometimes an opening is played where a rook pawn
is advanced far enough to be captured by the opponent's pawn, after which the rook moves to capture the opponent's
pawn. Castling can be overrated as well. The problem with castling is that multiple turns are needed to form a castle,
and these turns instead can be used for shoring up defenses, or for low-level offense attacks. There is the opportunity
cost of using up turns to form castle structures, versus using those turns to shore up defenses or to attack. However,
if an opponent is using up many turns to form a castle, a player may not incur a tactical disadvantage by also using
up turns to form a castle. One should not automatically form a castle, but evaluate the cost/benefit of using up turns
for forming a castle at a particular point in the game. High level AI players seem to go against classical theories in
some situations.
Matt Hall
Jul 15, 2020, 2:50:00 PM7/15/20
to sho...@googlegroups.com
Hi,
Thanks for the reply. While you and the AI may be right, I find that AI kind of kills the fun of shogi. The game is only fun because it stretches the limits of human capacity. For an AI, I imagine playing shogi is about as fun as it is for me to play tic-tac-toe. As to Ranging Rook in general, the main reason why I play it is because it just feels right. Maybe it is the underdog aspect or something like that ;-)
As an update, lately, the 3rd file response has been working against black's 4th file rook, if I can get my rook to the 6th file in time. I realize it is probably a rather low level strategy, so I am waiting for someone to really wallop me with a great counter. I find losing is the best way to get better, anyway.
Cheers!
Matt
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