meaning of "narikomi"

[Marc, shogi.de]

Hi all,
a japanese translator of manga magazines asked me to help her.
She is translating a manga to german language which includes some
shogi scenes.

In one scene, a character says:
"No matter which kin dashs away, kaku makes NARIKOMI. This keima is
just disgusting...."

What is the meaning of "narikomi" here? I didn't heard this word
before.
Can one translate just as "promote" ?

thanks for your help,
regards
Marc

[Daniel Toebbens]

Marc, shogi.de schrieb:

I think there is some additional meaning - promoting, which will
compensate you for losses you incurred through those moves that made the
promotion possible in the first place. Just an educated guess, though,
based on komi in Go being the points you get as compensation for playing
with white.

[kiroh]

According to Jim Breen's WWWJDIC, 成り駒 (narikomi) translates to "promoted chessman".


--
Gerald Horula (kir...@gmail.com)
Playing With Light and Shadows - http://horula.ca/

[bogin]

I don't think "narikomi" has anything to do with Igo. My guess is that "narikomi" is just the noun form of the Japanese verb "narikomu". "Narikomu" is a compound verb: a combination of two Japanese verbs "naru" and "komu".

 

In a shogi sense, "naru" means to promote and "komu" mean to enter. So, "narikomu" would be to promote by entering your opponents position. Of course, the only way to promote a pice is by entering into your opponent's position so you could just say "nari". But,  I think the "komi" is just added to emphasis to entering part a little bit more.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Bill Gaudry

Daniel Toebbens <Daniel....@uibk.ac.at> wrote:

---

Yahoo! JAPAN - Internet safety for children and parents.

[Gergely Buglyo]

Dear Marc,

 

"Narikomi" (成り込み) comes from the Japanese compound verb "narikomu" (成り込む). It is actually the nominal form of this verb. "Naru" (成る) in this case means "to promote", while "komu" (込む) means in this context "to enter". "Narikomi" is a common word in shogi that refers to promotion by entering the opponent's territory. The difference from "naru" which simply means "to promote" is that "narikomu" is not used for cases when the piece is dropped inside enemy territory and promotes from there - it is only used if the piece enters the promotion zone from outside.

 

Notes:

成り駒 is pronounced "narikoma", not "narikomi". It is a noun, referring to a promoted piece.

 

Although I'm not familiar with go, I just looked up how "komi" is spelled in go out of curiosity. "Komi" in go is actually an abbreviation for "ko-midashi" (小見出し), so it doesn't come from the verb 込む.

 

Best regards from Hungary:

 

Gergely

 

 

> Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 03:52:47 -0800
> Subject: meaning of "narikomi"
> From: marc....@googlemail.com
> To: sho...@googlegroups.com

[Daniel Toebbens]

Gergely Buglyo schrieb:

>
> "Narikomi" (成り込み) comes from the Japanese compound verb "narikomu"
> (成り込む). It is actually the nominal form of this verb. "Naru" (成
> る) in this case means "to promote", while "komu" (込む) means in this
> context "to enter". "Narikomi" is a common word in shogi that refers
> to promotion by entering the opponent's territory. The difference from
> "naru" which simply means "to promote" is that "narikomu" is not used
> for cases when the piece is dropped inside enemy territory and
> promotes from there - it is only used if the piece enters the
> promotion zone from outside.
>

> Although I'm not familiar with go, I just looked up how "komi" is
> spelled in go out of curiosity. "Komi" in go is actually an
> abbreviation for "ko-midashi" (小見出し), so it doesn't come from the
> verb 込む.
>

Yes, from the kanji it is obvious that the two terms are unrelated. I should have taken my time to look up the kanji used in narikomi (which I could not do on my workplace machine ;-). But now I am curious: Is there a term for "compensational promotion"?

[Gergely Buglyo]

Well, I don't think there is a term for compensational promotion.
 
But getting back to how "komi" is spelled, komidashi written like 小見出し also sounds strange for a game like go, it is typically used in the meaning of "secondary title" or "subtitle". So, when I saw "komidashi" in an explanation I checked out online, the first word that came into my mind was 小見出し, but it hardly fits into the context. "Komi" refers to some kind of compensation for white, right? So I tried googling the Japanese web, but nobody writes "komi" with kanji, it is written always with katakana: コミ出し. So there is no telling what origin this word is, but I doubt it is 小見出し after all, as the meaning doesn't seem to fit. So I'm sorry if I gave you the wrong explanation - it is because I hardly know anything about go.
 
Best regards:
 
Gergely

> Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 14:34:24 +0100
> From: Daniel....@uibk.ac.at
> To: sho...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: meaning of "narikomi"

[Marc, shogi.de]

hi all,
thanks a lot for all of your comments, they have all been very
useful.

kind regards
Marc

On 5 Feb., 14:56, Gergely Buglyo <gbug...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Well, I don't think there is a term for compensational promotion.
>
> But getting back to how "komi" is spelled, komidashi written like 小見出し also sounds strange for a game like go, it is typically used in the meaning of "secondary title" or "subtitle". So, when I saw "komidashi" in an explanation I checked out online, the first word that came into my mind was 小見出し, but it hardly fits into the context. "Komi" refers to some kind of compensation for white, right? So I tried googling the Japanese web, but nobody writes "komi" with kanji, it is written always with katakana: コミ出し. So there is no telling what origin this word is, but I doubt it is 小見出し after all, as the meaning doesn't seem to fit. So I'm sorry if I gave you the wrong explanation - it is because I hardly know anything about go.
>
> Best regards:
>

> Gergely> Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 14:34:24 +0100> From: Daniel.Toebb...@uibk.ac.at> To: sho...@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: meaning of "narikomi"> > > Gergely Buglyo schrieb:> >> > "Narikomi" (成り込み) comes from the Japanese compound verb "narikomu"> > (成り込む). It is actually the nominal form of this verb. "Naru" (成> > る) in this case means "to promote", while "komu" (込む) means in this> > context "to enter". "Narikomi" is a common word in shogi that refers> > to promotion by entering the opponent's territory. The difference from> > "naru" which simply means "to promote" is that "narikomu" is not used> > for cases when the piece is dropped inside enemy territory and> > promotes from there - it is only used if the piece enters the> > promotion zone from outside.> >> > Although I'm not familiar with go, I just looked up how "komi" is> > spelled in go out of curiosity. "Komi" in go is actually an> > abbreviation for "ko-midashi" (小見出し), so it doesn't come from the> > verb 込む.> >> Yes, from the kanji it is obvious that the two terms are unrelated. I should have taken my time to look up the kanji used in narikomi (which I could not do on my workplace machine ;-). But now I am curious: Is there a term for "compensational promotion"?> > > _________________________________________________________________
> Drag n’ drop—Get easy photo sharing with Windows Live™ Photos.
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[bogin]

Gergely Buglyo <gbu...@hotmail.com> wrote:

 

AT 22:05 (JST) on February 5, I wrote the following.

 

 

"I don't think "narikomi" has anything to do with Igo. My guess is that "narikomi" is just the noun form of the Japanese verb "narikomu". "Narikomu" is a compound verb: a combination of two Japanese verbs "naru" and "komu".

 

In a shogi sense, "naru" means to promote and "komu" mean to enter. So, "narikomu" would be to promote by entering your opponents position. Of course, the only way to promote a piece is by entering into your opponent's position so you could just say "nari". But,  I think the "komi" is just added to emphasis to entering part a little bit more.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Bill Gaudry"

 

Maybe my message didn't get through to everyone but my guess about "narikomi"must have been right because Gergley posted essentially EXACTLY THE SAME THING at 22:12 (JST) on Feb. 5 which btw was AFTER I posted my answer.

 

So, maybe my message didn't get through and he just unknowingly just repeated everything I just posted. But, if my answer did go through then a little acknowledgment would've been good manners. Don't you think?

 

Bill Gaudry

[Gergely Buglyo]

Sorry, Bill, your answer was right. I was typing my own answer simultaneously with yours, so I didn't your message until I have posted mine. Best regards:
 
Gergely

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Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 06:29:50 +0900
From: bo...@yahoo.co.jp
Subject: RE: meaning of "narikomi"
To: sho...@googlegroups.com

> </HTML

[bogin]

Gergely,

 

No blood no foul. I shouldn't have been so curt with my response. I don't post very often on the Shogi-L BBS so I thought I might have done something wrong and my post didn't go through.

 

Bill Gaudry.

Gergely Buglyo <gbu...@hotmail.com> wrote:

[Alexei]

Hi.  I'm pretty sure that 成り駒 is pronounced "narigoma".  Sometimes it is impossible to tell the furigana reading just by looking at the kanji.  I looked it up on the terms list and it also gives that as the proper reading.

 

Names and place names can also be difficult.  A long time ago, I talked to Aono Teruichi about Edo jidai players and he said that one of the more popular ones was Amano Sofu.  Of course he had in mind Amano Soho but I thought it was interesting that he didn't say the proper reading of the name even being a native speaker and a strong player. 

 

 

Sincerely,

Alexei

----- Original Message -----

From: Gergely Buglyo

To: sho...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 3:12 AM

Subject: RE: meaning of "narikomi"

[Gergely Buglyo]

Dear Alexei,
 
Your insticts are right, "k" often becomes "g" in compound words. In this case, however, 成り駒 is pronounced "narikoma" (also according to the official Shougi Yougo Jiten, 将棋用語辞典). The rule of thumb is that in some words which are special or sophisticated, "k" stays "k" and doesn't become "g" even in compound words. The Japanese Google also gives 8 hits for "narigoma", however, so maybe some people pronounce in that way.
 
天野宗歩 is pronounced both "Amano Sofu" and "Amano Soho". We don't know how he actually pronounced his name. See this link:
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%A4%A9%E9%87%8E%E5%AE%97%E6%AD%A9
 
Best regards:
 
Gergely

---

From: ale...@hawaii.rr.com
To: sho...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: meaning of "narikomi"

[Gergely Buglyo]

Dear Bill,
 
It was my fault. It took me a lot of time to research "komi" in go while writing my message, and I should have checked if a correct answer was given in the meantime. Sorry again, and best wishes:
 
Gergely

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Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 15:32:12 +0900