Blindfold shogi
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Bernhard
Jul 8, 2009, 8:07:56 AM7/8/09
to SHOGI-L
Hi,
can you play blindfold shogi?
(I can do it with tsume, but I need a lot of time first "learning" the
position.)
Can you play blindfold chess?
(I can't.)
Do you believe, that the ability of playing blindfold shogi will
increase your playing strength?
(I believe so, because for calculating moves, you also have to do it
in your brain without moving the pieces. Furtheremore, than you can
learn everywhere at everytime, even with closed eyes. ;-) )
Do you believe it will HELP or make it more DIFFICULTY to learn
blindfold chess before?
(I'm not sure: at one side it will help, because it's easier to learn
and you will get practice, but on the other side it will maybe
confuse, special by the different coordinates: e4 or 4e,5f.)
Do you think it will be a good idea to make (at least in brain) the
shogi-board also two-coloured, which makes it (much) easier for the
(very important) bishop moves?
Do you think learning in 3x3 chunks (splitting the board into 9 parts)
is the best way?
I believe the bishop moves would be harder in this case, but how to
use 4x4 chunks instead?
That's all for now,
Bernhard
can you play blindfold shogi?
(I can do it with tsume, but I need a lot of time first "learning" the
position.)
Can you play blindfold chess?
(I can't.)
Do you believe, that the ability of playing blindfold shogi will
increase your playing strength?
(I believe so, because for calculating moves, you also have to do it
in your brain without moving the pieces. Furtheremore, than you can
learn everywhere at everytime, even with closed eyes. ;-) )
Do you believe it will HELP or make it more DIFFICULTY to learn
blindfold chess before?
(I'm not sure: at one side it will help, because it's easier to learn
and you will get practice, but on the other side it will maybe
confuse, special by the different coordinates: e4 or 4e,5f.)
Do you think it will be a good idea to make (at least in brain) the
shogi-board also two-coloured, which makes it (much) easier for the
(very important) bishop moves?
Do you think learning in 3x3 chunks (splitting the board into 9 parts)
is the best way?
I believe the bishop moves would be harder in this case, but how to
use 4x4 chunks instead?
That's all for now,
Bernhard
TKR101010
Jul 8, 2009, 6:12:27 PM7/8/09
to SHOGI-L
1) can you play blindfold shogi?
No. But I'm playing a game of Dai Dai with someone who made their
first 12 moves while on vacation and not having a board with them.
2) Can you play blindfold chess?
No.
3) Do you believe, that the ability of playing blindfold shogi will
increase your playing strength?
Possibly. But it would be cool if you had a friend who could also play
blind and not need a board for the entire game.
4) Do you believe it will HELP or make it more DIFFICULTY to learn
blindfold chess before?
I'd go with just doing blind shogi straight off if shogi was the goal.
5) Do you think it will be a good idea to make (at least in brain) the
just try to visualize it as an actual board would be.
6) Do you think learning in 3x3 chunks (splitting the board into 9
back together in my head.
No. But I'm playing a game of Dai Dai with someone who made their
first 12 moves while on vacation and not having a board with them.
2) Can you play blindfold chess?
No.
3) Do you believe, that the ability of playing blindfold shogi will
increase your playing strength?
Possibly. But it would be cool if you had a friend who could also play
blind and not need a board for the entire game.
4) Do you believe it will HELP or make it more DIFFICULTY to learn
blindfold chess before?
I'd go with just doing blind shogi straight off if shogi was the goal.
5) Do you think it will be a good idea to make (at least in brain) the
shogi-board also two-coloured, which makes it (much) easier for the
(very important) bishop moves?
If I was going to try to train myself to play shogi blind I think I'd
(very important) bishop moves?
just try to visualize it as an actual board would be.
6) Do you think learning in 3x3 chunks (splitting the board into 9
parts) is the best way?
Personally, no. I think it'd be weird and harder to put the 3x3 chunks
back together in my head.
Rod Jackson
Jul 8, 2009, 7:53:44 PM7/8/09
to sho...@googlegroups.com
Hi,
can you play blindfold shogi?
can you play blindfold shogi?
Haven't tried, don't really have anyone to play against...
Can you play blindfold chess?
Yes, sort of :) I've played a few games with a friend of mine. But in one of those games around the middle game, we both realised that somewhere earlier we'd both moved different pieces onto the same square (ie. we stuffed the game and couldn't play it anymore).
Do you believe, that the ability of playing blindfold shogi will
increase your playing strength?
Yes. The pros can do it :)
Do you believe it will HELP or make it more DIFFICULTY to learn
blindfold chess before?
I'd assume it would help, but if one was to "learn" blind-fold Shogi I'd just learn that rather than learning blindfold chess first and then shogi.
Do you think it will be a good idea to make (at least in brain) the
shogi-board also two-coloured, which makes it (much) easier for the
(very important) bishop moves?
I doubt it would be any different from any other "method" of distingushing the two sides. So I'd just stick with the "normal" Shogi method of using the way the pieces face. (When you captured a piece you'd have to mentally change the colour).
Do you think learning in 3x3 chunks (splitting the board into 9 parts)
is the best way?
I believe the bishop moves would be harder in this case, but how to
use 4x4 chunks instead?
I believe "familiar shapes" are the best method (or the method that our brain uses). So knowing your joseki (sp?) will help.
RAZA 2009
"Following lies will never lead to the Truth" Rod Jackson
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Bernhard
Jul 9, 2009, 3:25:37 PM7/9/09
to SHOGI-L
Hi,
if you like to test/practice your shogi blindfold ability, you can use
the following 2 x 3 examples.
They are using inline-graphics, which means, that you mustn't use MS
IE - it didn't work.
You should use Firefox.
Also you can use STRG-"+" to increase the size.
Puzzletype 1:
Go to the "Learning" section and try to learn the diagram with a
limited time (maybe 60 seconds).
Go to the "Questions" section and type, what pieces are at the given
fields. (Of course don't look at the diagrams.)
Don't scroll to far down: there are the answers!!!
Puzzletype 2:
Play this moves in your head.
Go to the "Questions" section and type, what pieces are after that
moves at the given fields. (Don't look at the moves any further.)
I believe the task is very hard - at least for me.
I have to think about making it easier at the beginning. Using OWN
played games would be a good thing.
And here are the links:
http://home.arcor.de/Bernhard.Maerz/Puzzles1.xhtml
http://home.arcor.de/Bernhard.Maerz/Puzzles2.xhtml
Waiting your coments, your results and anything,
Bernhard
if you like to test/practice your shogi blindfold ability, you can use
the following 2 x 3 examples.
They are using inline-graphics, which means, that you mustn't use MS
IE - it didn't work.
You should use Firefox.
Also you can use STRG-"+" to increase the size.
Puzzletype 1:
Go to the "Learning" section and try to learn the diagram with a
limited time (maybe 60 seconds).
Go to the "Questions" section and type, what pieces are at the given
fields. (Of course don't look at the diagrams.)
Don't scroll to far down: there are the answers!!!
Puzzletype 2:
Play this moves in your head.
Go to the "Questions" section and type, what pieces are after that
moves at the given fields. (Don't look at the moves any further.)
I believe the task is very hard - at least for me.
I have to think about making it easier at the beginning. Using OWN
played games would be a good thing.
And here are the links:
http://home.arcor.de/Bernhard.Maerz/Puzzles1.xhtml
http://home.arcor.de/Bernhard.Maerz/Puzzles2.xhtml
Waiting your coments, your results and anything,
Bernhard
Jean Fortin
Jul 9, 2009, 4:07:38 PM7/9/09
to sho...@googlegroups.com
Hi,
I'm french, sorry in advance for my bad english.
First, to answer your questions :
> can you play blindfold shogi?
never tried (no opponent, and I haven't been playing shogi as long as
I've been playing chess...)
> Can you play blindfold chess?
Yes
specifically train to play blind shogi : simply by playing shogi,
reading books, etc., the ability to "read sequences" without moving
pieces will develop by itself.
Similarly, I never *learned* to play blindfold chess, I just learned to
play chess, and by progressing in normal chess my ability to play
blindfold chess naturally developed itself.
> Do you believe it will HELP or make it more DIFFICULTY to learn
blindfold chess before?
Not more difficult, I don't think the coordinates are a problem at all.
> Do you think it will be a good idea to make (at least in brain) the
shogi-board also two-coloured, which makes it (much) easier for the
(very important) bishop moves?
Actually, I was never able to remember the colors on the chess board,
and I was able to play without it.
> Do you think learning in 3x3 chunks (splitting the board into 9 parts)
is the best way?
I believe the bishop moves would be harder in this case, but how to
use 4x4 chunks instead?
If I refer to my "experience" in playing blind chess, I, at least, don't
split the board precisely in such a way.
Now for the comments about the puzzles :
when playing blind chess, rather than remembering the position at each
move, I think I remember something like the logic of the position, i.e.
the sequence of moves that lead to the position. I guess by constantly
reconstructing the position in my mind I do remember some positions too,
but that does not come first.
So for me, the first kind of puzzle is rather difficult, and would be
difficult for chess too : i'm not used to remembering one position.
It's far more easy to remember a sequence of moves, like the second puzzles.
I didn't actually tried your problems though, I don't have the correct
fonts and the webpage does not load properly.
If I may ask, why do you have so much questions about blind shogi?
Jean
I'm french, sorry in advance for my bad english.
First, to answer your questions :
> can you play blindfold shogi?
I've been playing chess...)
> Can you play blindfold chess?
Yes
> Do you believe, that the ability of playing blindfold shogi will
increase your playing strength?
I think that they are correlated, but that it isn't useful to
increase your playing strength?
specifically train to play blind shogi : simply by playing shogi,
reading books, etc., the ability to "read sequences" without moving
pieces will develop by itself.
Similarly, I never *learned* to play blindfold chess, I just learned to
play chess, and by progressing in normal chess my ability to play
blindfold chess naturally developed itself.
> Do you believe it will HELP or make it more DIFFICULTY to learn
blindfold chess before?
> Do you think it will be a good idea to make (at least in brain) the
shogi-board also two-coloured, which makes it (much) easier for the
(very important) bishop moves?
and I was able to play without it.
> Do you think learning in 3x3 chunks (splitting the board into 9 parts)
is the best way?
I believe the bishop moves would be harder in this case, but how to
use 4x4 chunks instead?
split the board precisely in such a way.
Now for the comments about the puzzles :
when playing blind chess, rather than remembering the position at each
move, I think I remember something like the logic of the position, i.e.
the sequence of moves that lead to the position. I guess by constantly
reconstructing the position in my mind I do remember some positions too,
but that does not come first.
So for me, the first kind of puzzle is rather difficult, and would be
difficult for chess too : i'm not used to remembering one position.
It's far more easy to remember a sequence of moves, like the second puzzles.
I didn't actually tried your problems though, I don't have the correct
fonts and the webpage does not load properly.
If I may ask, why do you have so much questions about blind shogi?
Jean
Bernhard
Jul 9, 2009, 4:41:35 PM7/9/09
to SHOGI-L
Hi Jean,
thanks for your answers.
And of course thanks the other writers in this thread, too. ;-)
> Now for the comments about the puzzles :
> when playing blind chess, rather than remembering the position at each
> move, I think I remember something like the logic of the position, i.e.
> the sequence of moves that lead to the position. I guess by constantly
> reconstructing the position in my mind I do remember some positions too,
> but that does not come first.
Yes, that's exactly my opinion.
You did NOT remember each piece on the board, but the LOGIC behind it.
(I'm sure, most people know about the experiment, where beginers and
profis have to remember positions on a chess-board. While positions
from real games can be remembered much better by the pros, they are
not much better in random-positions.)
So you recognize my thinking, now? ;-)
playing blindfold shogi => remembering the position => understanding
the logic behind it
Maybe you will understand interactions between the pieces better.
> So for me, the first kind of puzzle is rather difficult, and would be
> difficult for chess too : i'm not used to remembering one position.
> It's far more easy to remember a sequence of moves, like the second puzzles.
Yes, but it's nothing big different than the first puzzles: you have
to understand the logic.
In the first variant you have to find the logic by yourself, in the
second variant the moves helps you finding the logic (but still there
is more logic than the moves are showing.)
> I didn't actually tried your problems though, I don't have the correct
> fonts and the webpage does not load properly.
Maybe this PDFs are better:
http://home.arcor.de/Bernhard.Maerz/Puzzles1.pdf
http://home.arcor.de/Bernhard.Maerz/Puzzles2.pdf
(Of course the page-formating dosn't look well.)
> If I may ask, why do you have so much questions about blind shogi?
Oh, I'm a scientifically interested person. ;-)
Speaking about blindfold shogi is not only about my theses, that this
will also increase your playing strength, it's also an interesting
topic.
I'm interested in a lot of more things, but it's hard to find people
to speak about it.
I'm interested in the working of our brain, about learning HOW to
learn (this thing, an important thing is NOT teached at the scool,
where it should be absolutely neccessary), about how to forgett, I
have thought something about learning languages.
I'm interested in AI, interested in how computers can play Chess,
Shogi and even Go better than me. ;-)
Blindfold shogi is interesting in a lot of things. ;-)
Bernhard
thanks for your answers.
And of course thanks the other writers in this thread, too. ;-)
> Now for the comments about the puzzles :
> when playing blind chess, rather than remembering the position at each
> move, I think I remember something like the logic of the position, i.e.
> the sequence of moves that lead to the position. I guess by constantly
> reconstructing the position in my mind I do remember some positions too,
> but that does not come first.
You did NOT remember each piece on the board, but the LOGIC behind it.
(I'm sure, most people know about the experiment, where beginers and
profis have to remember positions on a chess-board. While positions
from real games can be remembered much better by the pros, they are
not much better in random-positions.)
So you recognize my thinking, now? ;-)
playing blindfold shogi => remembering the position => understanding
the logic behind it
Maybe you will understand interactions between the pieces better.
> So for me, the first kind of puzzle is rather difficult, and would be
> difficult for chess too : i'm not used to remembering one position.
> It's far more easy to remember a sequence of moves, like the second puzzles.
to understand the logic.
In the first variant you have to find the logic by yourself, in the
second variant the moves helps you finding the logic (but still there
is more logic than the moves are showing.)
> I didn't actually tried your problems though, I don't have the correct
> fonts and the webpage does not load properly.
http://home.arcor.de/Bernhard.Maerz/Puzzles1.pdf
http://home.arcor.de/Bernhard.Maerz/Puzzles2.pdf
(Of course the page-formating dosn't look well.)
> If I may ask, why do you have so much questions about blind shogi?
Speaking about blindfold shogi is not only about my theses, that this
will also increase your playing strength, it's also an interesting
topic.
I'm interested in a lot of more things, but it's hard to find people
to speak about it.
I'm interested in the working of our brain, about learning HOW to
learn (this thing, an important thing is NOT teached at the scool,
where it should be absolutely neccessary), about how to forgett, I
have thought something about learning languages.
I'm interested in AI, interested in how computers can play Chess,
Shogi and even Go better than me. ;-)
Blindfold shogi is interesting in a lot of things. ;-)
Bernhard
Bernhard
Jul 12, 2009, 9:48:31 AM7/12/09
to SHOGI-L
Hi,
a few more thoughts ...
I believe, normaly this tasks are to difficulty.
As I suggested already, one way is to use an own played game.
But also you can use a famous shogi game, which is worth to study.
So knowing (studying) such games will also make it possible to know
the logic behind it.
Or in reverse way: if you like to follow the positions without board,
you must learn the logic.
So an example:
watch the current video of HIDETCHI as often as you like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXSQqAZg8pg
Analyze it, find all logic behind the game, replay it and make your
own thinkings.
Then print the following puzzle:
http://home.arcor.de/Bernhard.Maerz/Puzzle3.xhtml
or
http://home.arcor.de/Bernhard.Maerz/Puzzle3.pdf
Next cut the answers and put them away. ;-)
And finaly, try to solve it without any other help, like for example a
board.
Are you able to manage it?
How many answers you can give correct?
Bye
Bernhard
a few more thoughts ...
I believe, normaly this tasks are to difficulty.
As I suggested already, one way is to use an own played game.
But also you can use a famous shogi game, which is worth to study.
So knowing (studying) such games will also make it possible to know
the logic behind it.
Or in reverse way: if you like to follow the positions without board,
you must learn the logic.
So an example:
watch the current video of HIDETCHI as often as you like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXSQqAZg8pg
Analyze it, find all logic behind the game, replay it and make your
own thinkings.
Then print the following puzzle:
http://home.arcor.de/Bernhard.Maerz/Puzzle3.xhtml
or
http://home.arcor.de/Bernhard.Maerz/Puzzle3.pdf
Next cut the answers and put them away. ;-)
And finaly, try to solve it without any other help, like for example a
board.
Are you able to manage it?
How many answers you can give correct?
Bye
Bernhard
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