honing front bevels alternately with back bevels

[michael ball]

In Brent's sharpening guide he recommends honing front and back micro bevels alternately, incrementally increasing the angle on both sides with slips.  Is there any disadvantage to honing all 3 micro bevels on the front of your blade and then afterwards doing the three back bevels?

[Pmel...@nbnet.nb.ca]

What tool are you sharpening I can't find the page.

On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 1:11 PM, michael ball <michl...@gmail.com> wrote:

In Brent's sharpening guide he recommends honing front and back micro bevels alternately, incrementally increasing the angle on both sides with slips.  Is there any disadvantage to honing all 3 micro bevels on the front of your blade and then afterwards doing the three back bevels?

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[Brent Beach]

Hi Michael

I am not sure why I do it the way I do or if it would be better to do it
the way you suggest.

Some people says that alternating front and back helps break off the
burr. I don't think this matters at all, even if it does happen.

If you look at the many sketchup models, you will see that successive
bevels remove metal well below the surface left by the last bevel. Each
new bevel would then hone off any burr from the side on which it was
created. No need to bend it off by switching back and forth.

The final abrasive, if it leave a burr at all, can only leave a burr
with thickness about equal to the depth of the scratches left by the
abrasive. Since 0.5 micron abrasive leaves scratches that are a fraction
of this, the burr would be no thicker than 0.05 microns.

I don't think a burr this thick will have any effect on the quality of
the edge.

So, either way seems fine with me.

It always seemed natural to me to finish with one abrasive before going
on to the next. You wipe the blade, removing any abrasive particles that
might be on the edge before moving to the next abrasive. Doing this once
per abrasive may save a little time.

It is probably much the same either way.

Brent

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Brent Beach
Victoria, BC, Canada

[michael ball]

That's good to know.  Sometimes I think it's easier to do the back bevels after the front with my set up.  

[Brent Beach]

Michael

What is your setup? Can you send pictures?

Brent

On 2013-04-13 13:12, michael ball wrote:
> That's good to know. Sometimes I think it's easier to do the back
> bevels after the front with my set up.
>

[michael ball]

I would but I've simply copied designs from your site with no significant differences.  I did change some of my plane jigs to rest on a point as I thought it would be easier to keep the honing square to the blade, someone else has already done this - http://www.mwells.org/woodworking/sharpening/single-point-honing-jig.

I made some gouge jigs following the designs listed on your site (Tom Culver's), I wanted to try putting back bevels on (sharpening the inside of the gouge).  My method at the moment is to clamp the the gouge on a desk a certain distance away from the edge.  Then using a dowel wrapped in sandpaper I can keep the angle consistent by using the edge of the desk as a guide. 

[Brent Beach]

Michael

On 2013-04-14 03:12, michael ball wrote:
> I made some gouge jigs following the designs listed on your site (Tom
> Culver's), I wanted to try putting back bevels on (sharpening the inside
> of the gouge). My method at the moment is to clamp the the gouge on a
> desk a certain distance away from the edge. Then using a dowel wrapped
> in sandpaper I can keep the angle consistent by using the edge of the
> desk as a guide.

What kind of gouges are these? Wood turning? Carving?

How exactly do you do that? Wrapping abrasive around a dowel I
understand. The rest, just guessing ...

Something like say a 1 foot long dowel with abrasive only on a few
inches at one end, the part with no abrasive running along the edge of
the desk?

Putting a very small inside bevel on a gouge would make a big difference
to edge geometry.

How far is the gouge from the edge? How thick is the gouge? Dow does the
dowel radius relate to the gouge radius? So many questions, so little time.

Brent

[michael ball]

You guessed right Brent. I should probably be using a dowel with a larger radius.

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[Brent Beach]

Michael

I made a sketchup model of what I imagine you are doing.

The sketch shows only part of the gouge, but all of the dowel. In this
case, the gouge has 1" radius, the down .75" radius. At these sizes and
distance of the gouge from the edge of the table, the angle on the
inside of the gouge is 2.2 degrees.

This works, but only for the part of the gouge actually resting on the
surface. Up the sides of the gouge, the angle is zero. So, you have to
twirl the gouge so that each bit of the gouge is on the table and the
dowel is moving back and forth but always pushing straight down.

Not sure I would understand what I meant from what I wrote. Hope you do.

Almost any uniform cylinder would work - piping of any type, dowels, ...

Brent

On 2013-04-14 10:44, michael ball wrote:
> You guessed right Brent. I should probably be using a dowel with a
> larger radius.
>
> On Apr 14, 2013 3:59 PM, "Brent Beach" <brent...@gmail.com

[michael ball]

Pictures attached

On Apr 14, 2013 3:59 PM, "Brent Beach" <brent...@gmail.com> wrote:

[michael ball]

I was hoping to get something in the region of two degrees for the back bevels.  Could you send me the sketchup file so I could try different values for the gouge blades?  Some of my gouges do not have semi-circular edges like the one you have pictured, rather their edges are shallower - they would form only part of a circle.  

Also, when I tried with a dowel I was able to get at the entire edge by moving the dowel left and right along the table edge (rather than rotating the gouge as you suggest).  I assume this leads to the angle changing though, perhaps making it a mix of angles rather than sharp?  I could rotate the gouge, I would have to find a different way of clamping it though.

[Pmel...@nbnet.nb.ca]

you could either create the primary bevel 2 degrees less like mentioned in the book How to sharpen anything from Lee Valley. 

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[michael ball]

Does the book mention back bevels on gouges?

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[Pmel...@nbnet.nb.ca]

Not really but does split the bevel, ie he recommends no less than 10 degree bevel or it will fail. especially with hardwood. 12 degree one side 13 or whatever on the other. the closer you can get the handle to be parallel with the wood the better the cut and less resistance. This will be noticed more with hardwood. example he states that with a 25 degree bevel your actually at 30 before you begin to cut. also he recommend square tip gouge instead of finger nail. I'll try to scan the 5 pages and send it to you.

[michael ball]

that's interesting, I've never seen people sharpening the backs of their gouges let alone dividing the bevel in half as in the example you give.  Getting such low angles on the main bevel using the jig design pictured above will be difficult (low angles require long blade extensions)

[Pmel...@nbnet.nb.ca]

I agree, after reading this again this week. I wondered why nobody was doing this. He states that it's more work for the person's making he chisel - gouges. I like his theory and it does make sense... now do I want to do it, maybe but which gouge do I sacrifice .... V Gouges are hard enough with 1 bevel on each wing let along 2.