What I want it to be

[Alan Bell]

Hi all,

I have an idea for the makerspace/hackspace which probably doesn't line up with what most people have been discussing so far. I have been talking about it on the IRC channel but thought I would put down some more details here for wider discussion as I know not everyone is on IRC.
I have a business with my co-director Alan Lord, it is just us at the moment but we will be expanding in the not too distant future. We have recently moved in to some really nice serviced offices in Farnham, for which we are paying quite a bit (in the region of £600 per month for a room with two desks that could fit three, including broadband, VAT, electricity, separate kitchen etc). This is at the high end of what people pay for office space, but we are cool with that. I would be interested in exploring the possibility of using a shared space instead of what we currently have.
My vision is of a nice office space. Really properly nice, modern and high tech rather than old and full of character. The kind of place that Google/IBM/Microsoft/Canonical/Mozilla might like (but smaller). Pitch it as an innovation hub and startup incubator as well as an awesome teleworking place for high tech companies. Kit it out with nice simple desks with screens and power and internet, people can provide their own laptops and sip phone handsets or whatever. Charge for desks and cupboard/filing cabinets. Lets have a nice kitchen and chillout area with sofas/bean bags.
All the desk stuff would clear away easily and leave the space free for evening and weekend events like soldering classes or reprap building etc. There would be some space available all the time for making stuff (or leaving repraps on building things) but the focus during the day would be on office space.
I think if the direction changes towards a dual purpose space which gets the space doing something useful during the day as well as evening and weekends would be financially easier. I do realise that this might not fit with what other people want the space to be, which is totally fine, we are quite happy in our office right now and the hackspace isn't essential to our plans. If the idea is to go for more heavy industrial stuff (like building motorbikes/renovating vehicles etc) then cool, go for that. But if people want to do a bit of soldering, textile making with lilipad arduinos, modeling with repraps and similar machines then that would seem compatible.
It might be possible to have a high tech space, plus have some pillar drills, lathes, laser cutters, milling machines etc shoved in someone's garage. This would kind of split the hackspace into clean/dirty on separate sites, I don't know if this would bother people or not.

Interested in your feedback,

Alan.

[Freaky Clown]

Hi Alan,

I love the idea of having the co-worker space dual puposed for "clean"
classes and presentations.. will have to see how the rest of the
potential co-workers feel about this though.

I am not sure we will ever be able to offer up google levels of
plushness though...

FC

[Barnaby]

Like: http://www.campuslondon.com/workspace/ ?

[Alan Pope]

On 06/07/12 13:30, Alan Bell wrote:
> Interested in your feedback,
>

This basically matches what I've been after. This is the reason I've
held back in committing financially to the hackspace. I'm pretty much
uninterested in the 'dirty' stuff (i.e. stuff that doesn't fit on a
desk, and probably makes noise/mess) but more interested in the office
space and some tinkering with arduino-level hacking.

I also like the idea of a space large/clean/tidy enough that we could
have other groups (radio/LUG/craft/whatever) come in and use the space
for their meetings/events.

This clearly doesn't marry up with the opinion of some, and I completely
understand if the majority preferred it if hackspace were to become
'dirty only' and not have 'office' space but just a small clean area.

Cheers,
--
Alan Pope
Engineering Manager

Canonical - Product Strategy
+44 (0) 7973 620 164
alan...@canonical.com
http://ubuntu.com/

[Alan Wood]

Its very cool but something like Campus London would require a lot of
investment to get of the ground

regards
Al
On Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 1:46 PM, Barnaby <b...@zi.is> wrote:
> Like: http://www.campuslondon.com/workspace/ ?

[Marc Pearson]

I think a lot of it will also depend on the space that we get. Not just in terms of size, but also floor layout. I also agree with Alan Wood, My main concern overall would be the one off investment where for the office space/area.

[Alan Bell]

On Friday, July 6, 2012 1:46:17 PM UTC+1, Barnaby wrote:

Like: http://www.campuslondon.com/workspace/ ?

yeah, that looks pretty cool, £275+vat/month for a permanent desk is a touch high, but doesn't terrify me (we are paying pretty much that already) and you are paying for the location in part (which sucks for me as it is in London and I live in Farnham).

[Dominic Cleal]

On 06/07/12 13:30, Alan Bell wrote:
> Interested in your feedback,

I don't believe this vision is compatible with the sorts of "dirty"
activities (drills, wood, metals etc) some in the group will want to
carry out - though I'm aware I'm not talking about myself, just relaying
ideas I've heard from others.

Personally this would largely be compatible with what I would want to
use a space for, but it isn't the direction I'd like to see the project
take. I'd prefer something more casual, rather than primarily being a
business space that is being "borrowed" for the purposes of hacking in.

My hunch is that a good mix of hacking would regularly be too messy or
complex to carry out in a business type environment, while keeping it
pristine for the day to day use. We'd likely be restricting potential
uses of the space quite heavily in one way to make it suitable for
business users. I think there's plenty of business offerings available
on the market already that fill this need.

My preference would be for a hackspace with a mix of shared desk areas,
clean areas and room to hold anything from training to electronics, plus
a workshop and storage. If we can fit some remote workers into this
space, even better. If we can share the space used by the remote
workers for some hacking activities, better still.

--
Dominic Cleal
dom...@computerkb.co.uk

[Lisi]

On Friday 06 July 2012 13:47:16 Alan Pope wrote:
> This clearly doesn't marry up with the opinion of some, and I completely
> understand if the majority preferred it if hackspace were to become
> 'dirty only' and not have 'office' space but just a small clean area.

If we end up with a large building, could the same building not be split into
two separate bits, Clean/Dirty?

Whether offices come into it or not, there is always going to be a dichotomy
between dirty and noisy on the one hand and clean and quiet on the other.

Lisi

[Christopher Roberts]

That level of decor would be amazing and much of it is just graft.
But there is a cost to it, and we'll be hard pressed to even get the
space and fund it.

Warning, idle thoughts ahead... don't take too seriously.

We have been talking about pricing coworking at around £150pm, if we
were talking about 4 @ £300 a month (inc), that adds £7200 to our
annual budget and would undoubtedly pay for a beautiful decor.

Or perhaps a £300 per month for the first year, falling to £150 per
month thereafter, or any such combination.

The point is - how important is the decor to the co-workers? My
suspicion is that most other hackers won't be that bothered. Perhaps
a high first year cost, coupled to Alan's upfront payment, could be
used to get the hackspace into shape from the outset.

But if the co-workers end up investing so much in the hackspace, will
this encourage a them/us attitude - I suspect so - depending on the
individuals concerned.

--
Chris Roberts
http://chrisjrob.com

[Alan Pope]

On 06/07/12 14:07, Lisi wrote:
> If we end up with a large building, could the same building not be split into
> two separate bits, Clean/Dirty?
>

Sure, but there's a difference between "clean bit" and "semi-permanent
office space".

[Alan Wood]

Well if we take the Wyndham Road building for example there are
literally two spaces available, a downstairs space suitable for light
industrial (i.e. Noisy physical and mechanical tools AKA noisy area or
workshop) and an upstairs space more amenable to office use.

regards
Al

[Christopher Roberts]

On 6 July 2012 14:10, Alan Pope <alan...@canonical.com> wrote:
> Sure, but there's a difference between "clean bit" and "semi-permanent
> office space".

Office + Clean + Dirty

[Alan Pope]

On 06/07/12 14:09, Christopher Roberts wrote:
> The point is - how important is the decor to the co-workers? My
> suspicion is that most other hackers won't be that bothered. Perhaps
> a high first year cost, coupled to Alan's upfront payment, could be
> used to get the hackspace into shape from the outset.
>

To clarify for others I asked last night if office workers might get
some kind of discount if they paid for a year up front.

[Alan Wood]

Also the upstairs can be let and managed completely separately which
may be beneficial from a financial investment POV.

However would the building be attractive enough from the outside fro
the more tech/biz oriented folk:

https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=GU12+4NY&aq=&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=11.618342,33.815918&vpsrc=6&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=GU12+4NY,+United+Kingdom&ll=51.245405,-0.753513&spn=0.001422,0.004128&t=m&z=19&iwloc=A&layer=c&cbll=51.245405,-0.753513&panoid=eX1_CICfYpb_QIxRI5p-bQ&cbp=12,18.63,,0,0

regards
Al

[Andy Smith]

On Fri, Jul 06, 2012 at 01:47:16PM +0100, Alan Pope wrote:
> This clearly doesn't marry up with the opinion of some, and I
> completely understand if the majority preferred it if hackspace were
> to become 'dirty only' and not have 'office' space but just a small
> clean area.

People who can do desk work in a hackspace can do it in a lot of
other places too. Even in a coffee shop in a lot of cases.

People who want to have opportunity, space, time and guidance to use
tools can't get that in a lot of places. As people with businesses /
work from anywhere jobs you can go out and get what you want pretty
easily. Can you as easily find somewhere to use a lathe, CNC,
bandsaw, makerbot, ...?

There is an inherent conflict between "office space" and "workshop
plus ad-hoc desk space". Desk workers do not want people turning up
at all hours doing noisy work. Desk workers do not want to be told
they can't use the desk area today because there is a scheduled
course on lockpicking or using a sewing machine or soldering or..

I think that trying to accommodate both will be extremely difficult
and the focus should be on providing the hard things that people get
nowhere else, with an emphasis on communal use, not apportioning
areas to those who are fortunate enough to be able to pay a higher
amount.

At the London Hackspace a quarter to a third of the area is clean
and has desks and kitchen but you don't get people reserving desks
or using it like a regular office. It's still very much a case of
"if you leave something out and don't want it hacked, label it Do
Not Hack". People using the desks are aware that they need to
let others use the space and that if there's a scheduled event then
they're going to have to move out. A balance has to be struck, but
the spirit is to let people do stuff.

I use hacker spaces for cheap office space but I still don't think
that hacker spaces are *about* cheap office space.

I can see that it is tempting from both sides. Hey, cheap office
space. Hey, people wanting to splash cash in the early days when we
have no cash flow. As a long term strategy it feels like a mistake,
as community is more important.

Each hacker space seems to have its own style and balance though.
It will evolve organically. But who wants to be Tech Hub?

Cheers,
Andy

[Alan Wood]

Personally I think the two ideas are at odds in terms of requirements,
however if they could exist in the same building on different floors
it would be very cool indeed.

I also agree with Andy in that the kind of things many of us are
looking to do are difficult to do elsewhere which is why the Hackspace
is such a good idea (and why I am currently prepared to hike over to
reading on a regular basis) unlike an office like space which I can
find pretty much anywhere.

I would also point out I am also still interested in a deskspace if
the hackspace has one available that I'm am willing to pay for to help
towards the hackspace but that's because my activities moving forward
are hardware (robotics) based rather than just software.

That's my personal opinion not as a director by the way.

regards
Al

[Freaky Clown]

it actually sounds as if we are all kinda in agreement (how did that happen)!!

Hackspace first then quiet desk space for co-workers during the
daytime which can then be utilised as a clean area and depending on
the size of the space we get changes the sharing of the space from
perm clean area to perm office space

we have to remember that without the option of co-workers willing to
put up some large fees we would not be able to afford any space at the
moment!

[Alan Bell]

On Friday, July 6, 2012 2:09:13 PM UTC+1, chrisjrob wrote:

The point is - how important is the decor to the co-workers?  My
suspicion is that most other hackers won't be that bothered.

Not sure how you are defining "most other hackers" here. People you already know who already have tools in the shed or garage, or people who might get excited about making things if you got an editorial in the Farnham Herald about making cool stuff like wearable electronics and stuff that crosses over into crafting. People who might bring their kids to an evening soldering project where they make a robot over a 6 week course etc.
People who might go to a maker faire event like this one (OK the scary robot horse is industrial) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7946971.stm
You are going to need to market the space to several hundred regular subscribers which means you need to pitch it to the widest possible audience. Think about the different types of hackspace it could be, then have a look round a local leisure centre or gym, how many people there could you sell a hackspace membership to for the different levels of decor?

[Alan Wood]

I'm not sure how important Decor is as a factor (TBO I just hadn't
thought about it) but given how most hackerspaces look I would guess
it is less of a priority compared to say the kit available to play
with and events offered to interest makers etc..

regards
Al

[Alan Bell]

On Friday, July 6, 2012 2:28:42 PM UTC+1, Folknology wrote:

Personally I think the two ideas are at odds in terms of requirements,

another way to do this would be to go down the industrial route, if you have some people who want to do metalwork and set up a small business doing that and sharing tools and space that would be cool. Think of Orange County Choppers sharing a space with West Coast Customs. Pimp my Chopper! Then you can have a nice big workshop with decent tools and it is revenue generating both during the day and out of hours as a hackspace. Doesn't have to be cars or motorbikes, bicycle repair or small scale manufacturing of bits would work fine.

[Alan Bell]

On Friday, July 6, 2012 2:07:45 PM UTC+1, Lisi wrote:

On Friday 06 July 2012 13:47:16 Alan Pope wrote:
> This clearly doesn't marry up with the opinion of some, and I completely
> understand if the majority preferred it if hackspace were to become
> 'dirty only' and not have 'office' space but just a small clean area.

If we end up with a large building, could the same building not be split into
two separate bits,  Clean/Dirty?

 maybe, if you can find such a building that can be afforded. I think utilisation is critical, if things are spending time idle (desks/machines/space) then they are costing money. If things can be used for more hours of the day then it becomes more viable. If there is a big building with a clean part for the day and a dirty part for the evening then half your building is idle all the time.

[Alan Wood]

As an example as TVRRUGERs we were attracted to (and got involved
financially with) Reading MakerSpace/Hackspace (RHS) because we needed
to use angle grinders to cut the threaded steel rod, the bench drill
to drill out the extruder housings and bed holes, the laser cutter and
bandsaw to cut out the bed platforms and more recently the CNC mill to
cut the hotend plates. And that isn't mentioning using soldering
irons, desoldering, wring and testing along with the soldering
classes we ran to bring group members up to speed.

regards
Al

[Alan Wood]

Well this sounds like an interesting commercial route (and there are
already some like this in the states) but it doesn't really match our
community oriented non-profit organisation. I also don't think making
should be confined to evenings and weekends, I'm personally a 15 hour
a day maker and use RHS for example at all different times.

regards
Al

[Dominic Cleal]

On 06/07/12 14:47, Freaky Clown wrote:
> it actually sounds as if we are all kinda in agreement (how did that happen)!!

We are? It sounds like we have multiple different views.

> Hackspace first then quiet desk space for co-workers during the
> daytime which can then be utilised as a clean area and depending on
> the size of the space we get changes the sharing of the space from
> perm clean area to perm office space

I don't think this is what Alan Bell had suggested, which from my
understanding was more of a business/tech hub primarily, with the option
of doing clean hackspacey activities out of hours. Predominantly
business activities.

(Hope I'm not misrepresenting your views Alan)

> we have to remember that without the option of co-workers willing to
> put up some large fees we would not be able to afford any space at the
> moment!

I think that's an exaggeration, but they certainly would be subsidising
the space heavily.

--
Dominic Cleal
dom...@computerkb.co.uk

[Alan Bell]

On Friday, July 6, 2012 3:30:58 PM UTC+1, Dominic Cleal wrote:

I don't think this is what Alan Bell had suggested, which from my
understanding was more of a business/tech hub primarily, with the option
of doing clean hackspacey activities out of hours.  Predominantly
business activities.

 I was thinking of a less binary switchover, I am fine with people making stuff during office hours too. If you are running a public event and want to get 30 people set up with soldering stations to do a class then after hours you would be able to kick out all the office workers, during 9-5 hours you wouldn't be able to clear the space to do that. I would expect a healthy crossover of people working late on office stuff and people working during the day on maker stuff (and it might well be the same people doing both office and maker stuff - in fact I would fully expect this)

(Hope I'm not misrepresenting your views Alan)

not by much

[Christopher Roberts]

I personally think that a hackspace without a dirty area, would
perhaps be drifting a little too far away from what many of us see as
a hackspace.

I am in favour of the offices being prepared to a high standard, funds
permitting, along with the communal areas.

But I do believe there needs to be a space for dirtier activities. I
suppose what excited me about the hackspace in the first place, was as
a place to make ANYTHING, not just to tinker with electronics, do a
bit of soldering and perhaps learn Python.

If both can be accommodated, then fantastic, but if the dirty space is
lost - then I feel we may be moving too far away from what I think of
as a hackspace. Given that I am only likely to be an occasional
visitor, my view is not terribly important, but I suspect I am not
alone in this view.

--
Chris Roberts

[Alan Wood]

Things I would want to be able to do in the day could likely include:

Soldering, and reflowing electronics
Drilling holes using a bench/pilar drill
Sawing ALU and Wood or ply
Angle grinding steel rods on occasion
Bending ALU and some steel
Welding (if we can get the kit and training sorted)
3D printing with PLA and occasionally the more smelly ABS
CNC Milling primarily ALU but also PEEK and Ply and others
Running and testing high torque motors (possibly to their breaking points)
Laser cutting with the smell and noisey fans that come with such machinery
Pick'n'place operating if we ever get it built
Occasional use of Birmingham screwdrivers for persuaion purposes

just to provide a personal usage view point (hopefully that clarifies
the sort of thing I'm thinking Alan)

regards
Al

[Marc Pearson]

It;s not a Birmingham screw driver, its an 'ommer!!!

[Barnaby]

DISCLAIMER: I am interested in using the co-working.

I think the may be a false dichotomy here. The are lots of pure hacking
activities that are mutually exclusive. You can't play with fun
chemicals whilst someone is testing a quad-copter, you can't polish your
laser lenses when someone is covering the space with aluminum dust on
the grinder. We are all going to have to compromise and work around each
other.

I would need far cleaner and quieter spaces to do reflow soldering then
my day-job.

[Alan Bell]

sounds like lots of fun! Welding sounds really interesting to me, when I was at school I wanted to be a computer geek or a blacksmith. Not entirely sure I went the right way, but we are where we are.

[Lisi]

On Friday 06 July 2012 16:35:45 Barnaby wrote:
> The are lots of pure hacking
> activities that are mutually exclusive.

Yes, I saw the clean/dirty dichotomy as referring very much to the hacking
itself. (And then perhaps allowing the office use to come in). I have in
the past done detailed embroidery, made clothes, changed car wheels and done
minor maintenance, and serviced bikes. I would not have wanted to do them
all in the same space.

Lisi

[Alan Wood]

For the Wyndham Road ground floor example, we envisaged heavier
noisier dirtier equipment at the Roller end and a quieter cleaner
partitioned area at the opposite end, clearly that would enable us to
do some partitioning of concurrent activities.

regards
Al

[Robin Fordham]

On 6 July 2012 15:54, Christopher Roberts <chri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I personally think that a hackspace without a dirty area, would
> perhaps be drifting a little too far away from what many of us see as
> a hackspace.
>
> I am in favour of the offices being prepared to a high standard, funds
> permitting, along with the communal areas.
>
> But I do believe there needs to be a space for dirtier activities. I
> suppose what excited me about the hackspace in the first place, was as
> a place to make ANYTHING, not just to tinker with electronics, do a
> bit of soldering and perhaps learn Python.
>
> If both can be accommodated, then fantastic, but if the dirty space is
> lost - then I feel we may be moving too far away from what I think of
> as a hackspace.

I have been to busy today and am indeed still busy at work to get
involved in this thread, but Chris pretty much sums up my feelings,
although a clean quiter area is quite important to me too.

Robin.

[Paul Hegarty]

I personally would be quite alarmed if we went the route of an office which happens to be a used for light hacking in the evenings. My experience with Reading and London Hackspaces make me feel the 2 are fundamentally incompatible if viewed from that direction. The hackspace HAS to be the higher priority. I'm sure we are all willing to make some compromises for offices workers, but not gut the hackspace of it's primary purpose. It's a points I have made several times at the meetings, but it is a Hackspace not a cheap Regus office!

My primary purpose for using the hackspace is to have access to all the interesting and useful tools and equipment. I WANT to see people building giant walking robots. I want to see spidercam style cameras racing across the space. I want to know I can use an angle grinder, or a welder when needed. Many of the things I cannot do at home, or need to be done communally. If people just want to play around with the odd arduino in the evening, that fine. But what's to stop you doing that in a normal office?

If we go the office first route, and gutted the hackspace. I would seriously reconsider my involvement in the space.

Paul

On Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 2:16 PM, Andy Smith <an...@bitfolk.com> wrote:

[Jona Young]

On 6 July 2012 13:30, Alan Bell <alanbe...@gmail.com> wrote:

I would be interested in exploring the possibility of using a shared space instead of what we currently have.
My vision is of a nice office space. Really properly nice, modern and high tech rather than old and full of character. 

Does anyone know how Build Brighton found meeting in the skiff (http://www.theskiff.org/About)?

It seems like provided a space is found with a separate quiet / clean area and that number of desks in quiet areas is greater than number of regular co-workers this should work with some careful negotiation. In terms of making it shiny that's probably just a matter of money and probably is something worth investing in for mutual benefit. I guess Parking might be an issue if you have more than one or two regular co-workers...?

If the desks were going to be used for other activities it might be worth making it hot desk style so no-one gets too attached to any particular desk. Maybe one of the benefits of paying the co-worker rate could be that you get a locker to keep things in when your not in "the office"?

Jona

[Alan Wood]

Isn't the skiff completely separate from Brighton hackspace?

regards
Al

[Jona Young]

On 6 July 2012 20:05, Alan Wood <folkn...@gmail.com> wrote:

Isn't the skiff completely  separate from Brighton hackspace?

Think so but looks like Brighton originally met at the Skiff until they got their own space.

"We're also the home of over a dozen community groups who meet regularly throughout the month. The most established of these, BuildBrighton, recently graduated to take on their own space, dedicated to hardware hacking, perfect for people wishing to tinker with their electronic inventions."

From http://www.theskiff.org/About

[Norro]

I don't really see how people saving on their office costs is subsidising the hackspace, surely that is the other way round?

[Paul Hegarty]

As far as I was aware, it was a measure to tied us over till be had enough members to fully fund the space. We sacrifice some of the space in order to bring in a known income. This then allows us to afford a bigger space. This avoids the large on-off costs of going from a v.small space to a larger one, since we can grab a larger one initially. Larger workshops are also more cost efficient, since there are more of them about. As the space got bigger, membership wise, and so more able to cover costs, the office space would either be phased out or budded off into a separate thing. (probably a couple of years down the line.)

It seems though that this has morphed somewhat, with the office taking priority over the hackspace(!?!) and the hackspace subsidising the offices. This is very worrying to me, since I cannot see it working as a model. Hackspaces are noisy, messy, chaotic things by nature. Not just a couple of guys sitting at a table with an Arduino between them going oooh.

Paul

P.S My apologies if I've ranted a little, long busy day, and talk of the loss of the hackspace made me a more than a little nervous. 

[Alan Bell]

On Friday, July 6, 2012 9:12:28 PM UTC+1, Norro wrote:

I don't really see how people saving on their office costs is subsidising the hackspace, surely that is the other way round?

Well I for one am not really talking about saving money on office costs, I want an expensive office, not a cheap and grotty one, and certainly not an expensive and grotty one. I have an expensive office right now, but I would be cool with having a different expensive office that is shared with more people and converts into a hackspace. If it is a low rent industrial lockup that you want, then I am not in. I am totally fine with not being in on this project, I fully understand that getting high quality office space into the concept pushes out other desirable stuff and this can go one way or the other. I believe there is a viable and sustainable model going down the tech hub route, and if there was a company formed limited by shares, with a business plan and marketing plan that looks good I would be tempted to invest in such a thing to make it happen. That might be totally against the ethos of what everyone else wants to do, which is fine.
If you want to go for a low cost hackspace with light industry tooling based on monthly contributions from a small core of members then what you need to do is find someone with a nice double garage with power and convert it into an informal workshop, whilst being a bit clever about how things are phrased to avoid problems with planning regulations. I don't think renting somewhere with even a 3 month termination clause is going to be viable without someone underwriting the rent and that person being on the hook for several thousand pounds of very real risk.

[Andy Smith]

Hello Alan,

On Fri, Jul 06, 2012 at 01:53:56PM -0700, Alan Bell wrote:
> I believe there is a viable and sustainable model going down the
> tech hub route, and if there was a company formed limited by
> shares, with a business plan and marketing plan that looks good I
> would be tempted to invest in such a thing to make it happen.

I'm sure you're right, since such places already exist, but what you
would end up with would not in my opinion be a hacker space.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with co-working spaces.

Cheers,
Andy

[Alan Bell]

On Friday, July 6, 2012 10:04:58 PM UTC+1, Andy Smith wrote:

I'm sure you're right, since such places already exist, but what you
would end up with would not in my opinion be a hacker space.

yes, I understand the concern here. I guess the hackspace I am thinking of is stuff geeky people already do at home (we do soldering at home, I built a 6 wheel programmable robot thing with my kids) and I was thinking of taking those kind of activities to a wider audience of people who don't already do geeky tinkering. If what you are after is heavier tooling that you wouldn't want large numbers of kids or uninitiated people near then it is a different place altogether, and you probably do want somewhere like the London hackspace where you navigate your way up a dark stairway that smells of wee and find your way to a room full of retired industrial machines. That is a cool option and I hope you can make it work, but I suspect you need to take the office space revenue out of the plan.

[Andy Smith]

On Fri, Jul 06, 2012 at 02:35:28PM -0700, Alan Bell wrote:
> If what you are after is heavier tooling that you wouldn't want
> large numbers of kids or uninitiated people near then it is a
> different place altogether, and you probably do want somewhere
> like the London hackspace where you navigate your way up a dark
> stairway that smells of wee and find your way to a room full of
> retired industrial machines.

This reads a bit like FUD I'm afraid; London Hackspace has had three
"young hacker" days and the only thing preventing more is finding
people to organise them.

http://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Project:Young_Hackspace

They are great for publicity.

> I suspect you need to take the office space revenue out of the
> plan.

I too suspect you need to take the office space revenue out of the
plan because it should never be in the plan: reserving large amounts
of space for people who happen to have more money than everyone else
is antithetical to the concept of a community-run hacker space and
will ensure that the only people left with an interest are those
with more money than everyone else.

That is the point I was trying to make.

I could certainly be wrong and maybe it can be made to work, but
what I think would happen is:

- The initial planning for making a successful co-working space
would skew the priorities far away from the needs of the workshop
crowd.

This would be justified because it is easier to find a property
and funding for the co-working crowd and without them nothing gets
started after all, right?

- Time passes and there never seems to be a good time to really make
a good go of the workshop space because the desk space is bringing
in a much better return and not only should those people not be
upset, but more like them should be found.

- Eventually those looking for workshop space to tinker in get bored
and wonder why they are bothering to take an interest in a project
that is dominated by people who are consuming co-working desk
space with a hacker vibe.

There would be no malice involved here, it would just be a natural
consequence of basing your priorities and existence on a particular
class of user.

On the subject of being wrong, in the time shortly after London
Hackspace got its current property, when they were deciding how to
set the prices, they decided to allow people 24 hour access for as
little as �5/month "if that's all you can afford".

I was loudly opposed to this because at the time the monthly income
of the hackspace was lower than the monthly outgoings, and the
banked cash reserves would run out in less than four months if this
did not improve. I even told one of the directors at the time that I
thought that they were being extremely irresponsible in not taking
immediate steps to improve cash flow by setting a higher membership
minimum, and that the place might well end up going bankrupt with
serious legal consequences for all directors.

They told me that I was wrong and that the more important thing was
being inclusive, so that as far as possible every person that wanted
to use the hackspace could do so, and that there was a very low
barrier to becoming a member.

I was very pleased to be proven utterly wrong and it changed my view
point from that day forward. Their growth was explosive and within 2
months they were well in the clear. Not long afterwards they grew
into the neighbouring unit.

I'll take LHS's stairs that smell of urine over a shiny Tech Hub
any day, sorry�.

Cheers,
Andy

� Full disclosure: When Tech Hub were looking for founder members, I
applied and they told me I wasn't cool enough. A small part of my
ego has never recovered.

[Paul Hegarty]

Andy, I agree with you on the most part. The co-working though though can work. You just have to make sure people are explicitly aware of the how and why. It is NOT a permanent thing, it is to allow us to get a bigger workshop from the get go, and to utilise dead space in a larger hackspace, until we can utilise it as part of the hackspace.

If effect, it is a bridging system to allow us to jump to a bigger space and provide more in the way of hacking services.

The sort of people who should be looking at it are those who would want to jump from the office to the hackspace anyhow. By having the office in the space, you can spend the time between phone calls or emails programming the milling machine, or chatting with other hackers who have come in to work on their own projects.

What we don't want is people who plan to lock themselves away in the office, and have to 'tolerate' going through the hackspace for a cheaper desk than elsewhere. This sort will sap the life out of the hackspace like a leach.

No offence to you Alan, but it sounds like you don't want a Hackspace, you want a fancy, IT centred, Regis office.

Paul

little as Ł5/month "if that's all you can afford".

I was loudly opposed to this because at the time the monthly income
of the hackspace was lower than the monthly outgoings, and the
banked cash reserves would run out in less than four months if this
did not improve. I even told one of the directors at the time that I
thought that they were being extremely irresponsible in not taking
immediate steps to improve cash flow by setting a higher membership
minimum, and that the place might well end up going bankrupt with
serious legal consequences for all directors.

They told me that I was wrong and that the more important thing was
being inclusive, so that as far as possible every person that wanted
to use the hackspace could do so, and that there was a very low
barrier to becoming a member.

I was very pleased to be proven utterly wrong and it changed my view
point from that day forward. Their growth was explosive and within 2
months they were well in the clear. Not long afterwards they grew
into the neighbouring unit.

I'll take LHS's stairs that smell of urine over a shiny Tech Hub

any day, sorryą.

Cheers,
Andy

ą Full disclosure: When Tech Hub were looking for founder members, I

[Norro]

tbh I would expect most are here for a proper hackspace, not an after school club that could be run from any office. So your belittling of what at least some people are looking for is both disrespectful and very much NOT the sort of colaboration I'm looking for.  So far I have only been on the periphery so I don't speak for anyone else but I have no interest in your plans that at best seem to be optimisticaly incompatible or at worst actively taking advantage of the group.

[Alan Bell]

really I never had any intention of belittling anything. I like machines and stuff. I have been to the London hackspace and I was a bit intimidated by the location and presentation of the place, I wouldn't leap to take my kids there but I think it is great that they are doing young hack days, really fantastic. Maybe on the day I went it wasn't showing itself off to best advantage. It was suggested that I might like to think about working in the hackspace and I was outlining a plan that would make that a realistic proposition. I think it is brilliant that people are working on a project to get a hackspace going, really it is. All I wanted to do was help make it work.

[Norro]

I think making somewhere that is child friendly throughout would be really limiting, this and paranoid health and safety in general is one of the main things that rules out other locations that would otherwise be available to many of us for tinkering eg. work, home.  Having workshops in a cleaner room or simply using the hackspace as a community base and going out to schools or village halls etc. for them might be more appropriate?  In my mind getting the word out and training is a means to an end, the primary purpose would be for doing/making stuff rather than just talking about it.

[Paul Hegarty]

Child safety, even in a workshop is less critical than you might think. You generally want to keep machining stuff together to limit the mess spread anyhow. So long as under 18s stay in the clean/quiet/presentation areas, unless supervised, it shouldn't be an issue. I was planning on drawing up a general risk assessment form for the space anyhow. Modifying this to cover children shouldn't be an issue. We are not a crèche, so they would have to be supervised, which removes most of the CRB check etc requirements. Might also be worth getting the supervising adult to sign something in regard to the rules. Not particularly legally binding, but it shows explicit awareness of the rules in place.

It gets a bit grayer around 15-18 mark, however I'm sure we can work out a compromise setup quite easily.

[Alan Wood]

Sorry this isn't very clear, let me be more specific.

Just to clarify what I am proposing is that the use of the terms such
as teleworking or co-working should be replaced by the term 'Hackspace
Pro Membership' or 'Hackspace Sponsorship Membership' which indicate
what the purpose of that role is and differentiate from the idea of a
shared office space or hub like arrangement and keep the focus on the
primary goal i.e. a Hackspace. That also then frees others looking for
a hub like group to pursue that separately without fear we might also
be treading on their toes and vice versa.

PS I like 'Hackspace Sponsorship Membership' better as there are no
membership benefits apart from use of desk if one is available
(depending on space) i.e. just another member contributing more.

PPS Oh and sorry Popey I should no't speak on your behalf I'm just
guessing hub is better than hack for you in this instance

regards
Al

[Alan Pope]

On 07/07/12 00:28, Alan Wood wrote:
> Oh and hackspace sponsor membership should be fixed at �150

"Should be"? Is that a pronouncement from a director or a suggestion
from an interested party?

> which
> means FC is automatically one by default although he doesn't have to
> use the desk if he doesn't want to.
>
> I also realise this mean we will loose Popey to teh hub idea, but
> frankly that makes sense anyhow and is far more suitable for him, lets
> not make square pegs fit into round holes.
>

This reads very much like you're trying to ensure I'm personally not
accommodated?

Maybe I haven't had enough coffee this morning but reading that from my
perspective looks like you're deciding for me where I want to work.

[Alan Pope]

On 07/07/12 00:55, Alan Wood wrote:
> PPS Oh and sorry Popey I should no't speak on your behalf I'm just
> guessing hub is better than hack for you in this instance
>

Huh, I should read all mails before replying. :D

[Barnaby]

I am 100% behind the idea that the hackspace is by far the most
important thing to get right. However my pledge of £150/month membership
is only possible if I can justify it as a business expense. This may not
work out and I would still be very excited to become a hacking member.

I believe the is still a real opportunity here, I am 100% realistic
about what a hackspace is, and what sort of working environment it
provides. My assumption is that my requirements are a sub-set of the
requirements for a fully flexible hackspace and do not need to lead to
any additional compromises nor a two-tier membership.

I would need to be able to operate an internet connected computer ~8
hours a day and make an occasional VOIP call. Given that AFAIK every
existing hackspace runs computers 24-7 with decent internet connections
I don't see why this would be difficult?

The was also some discuses of requiring long term contracts for the
teleworkers. This may again preclude my involvement, but more
importantly it may also lead to the two-tier system we are all trying to
avoid. As long as the is no long term commitment, the is no need to give
teleworkers any preferential standing in the community, we can just all
see how it works.

Barnaby

[Paul Hegarty]

Hi Barnaby, Our current plans would currently use excess/unused floorspace at the space for some desks (either hot-seat or dedicated, that is quite space dependent.) This should match what you need quite well. I am also thinking along similar lines myself. The issue we are running from is that some people seemed to want to 'put up' with a few hackers in order to get a cheap office. As well as limiting access and available tools. This is not what we want.

As for the long term commitment, that is an idea that was floated to help cover the initial cost bump. Some people were willing to put down money up front and in return pay less per month. I am personally worried about it created a 2 tiered hackspace, though a month or 2's notice that you are leaving would be v.useful, with a higher rate for v.short term usage (less than 1 month's notice etc).

As I see it though, in the longer term, as membership grows and space requirement get higher I think the office will be absorbed into the primary hackspace. It this point though, it would also, likely, be viable to set up an associated office space. This would give the best of both worlds. I believe it will likely take a couple of years or more to reach that point. It is also highly space dependent, and hence why I've not brought it up as a major thing till now, until we know what we have to work with.

[Alan Wood]

+1 Barnaby nice and clear

[Jacqui Caren]

On 06/07/2012 23:16, Andy Smith wrote:
> I'll take LHS's stairs that smell of urine over a shiny Tech Hub
> any day, sorry�.

I agree - but would say that cleaning and painting a stairwell
is not that difficult.

Jacqui

[Paul Hegarty]

Agreed. If we can get a couple of the local arts groups on-board, then I'm sure we can have it looking amazing!

On Sat, Jul 7, 2012 at 3:05 PM, Jacqui Caren <jacqui...@googlemail.com> wrote:

On 06/07/2012 23:16, Andy Smith wrote:

I'll take LHS's stairs that smell of urine over a shiny Tech Hub

any day, sorryš.

[Samuel Penn]

On 7 July 2012 15:05, Jacqui Caren <jacqui...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On 06/07/2012 23:16, Andy Smith wrote:
>>
>> I'll take LHS's stairs that smell of urine over a shiny Tech Hub

>> any day, sorryš.

>
> I agree - but would say that cleaning and painting a stairwell
> is not that difficult.

Disagree. I'd definitely lose interest very quickly if the place was in
a state like this.

--
Be seeing you, Games: http://www.glendale.org.uk
Sam. Posts: http://www.google.com/profiles/samuel.penn

[Norro]

I don't think anyone is saying that they actively want it to be grotty, just that beggers can't be choosers and that somewhere affordable and functional is slightly higher priority than something that looks swanky.

[Lisi]

On Saturday 07 July 2012 18:26:45 Norro wrote:
> I don't think anyone is saying that they actively want it to be grotty,

I back Jacqui. A scrubbing brush and a tin of paint or two can work wonders.
It may start grotty - but it doesn't have to stay grotty. That is up to us.

Lisi

[Ben Walsh]

I've delayed giving my response as (a) I wanted to see the feelings of other that have been members of the group for far longer and (b) as the currently proposed locations are so far away from me (and therefore the travel costs so high), I only expect to be able to afford to be a "day member" 2 or 3 times a month - assuming I can spend at least 6 or more hours there (to justify the travel costs).

My view is pretty much identical to that of Paul H.

I would be willing to invest further time and money on travelling, day member fees, pledges ..., only if the building provided (or was intended to provide) facilities/equipment equivalent/similar to that of the London Hackspace - http://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Equipment and Brighton Hackspace - http://www.buildbrighton.com/wiki/Category:Tools & http://www.buildbrighton.com/wiki/Major_Tool_Status.

The availability of that sort of group owned/maintained equipment, would be one of the major attractions for me, followed very closely by the community, socialising and skill sharing that would form around that.

I would absolutely expect to be able to use any of that equipment (when it is not being used by others) whatever day and time I happen to be there (within the opening hours of the building), without fear that I am making too much noise or mess for those engaged in "office type" activities. There are more than enough co-working spaces, serviced offices, coffee shops, libraries ... available for those that want to perform "office type" activities.

My ideal vision of a hackspace is one with a pretty much constant background noise of hammering, drilling, grinding, sanding ... and a smell of oil, heated wood, paint, plastic, glue and solder - somebody making something tangible - everything that can't be done in a co-working space, serviced office, coffee shop or library.

On Friday, July 6, 2012 1:30:05 PM UTC+1, Alan Bell wrote:

Hi all,

I have an idea for the makerspace/hackspace which probably doesn't line up with what most people have been discussing so far. I have been talking about it on the IRC channel but thought I would put down some more details here for wider discussion as I know not everyone is on IRC.
I have a business with my co-director Alan Lord, it is just us at the moment but we will be expanding in the not too distant future. We have recently moved in to some really nice serviced offices in Farnham, for which we are paying quite a bit (in the region of £600 per month for a room with two desks that could fit three, including broadband, VAT, electricity, separate kitchen etc). This is at the high end of what people pay for office space, but we are cool with that. I would be interested in exploring the possibility of using a shared space instead of what we currently have.
My vision is of a nice office space. Really properly nice, modern and high tech rather than old and full of character. The kind of place that Google/IBM/Microsoft/Canonical/Mozilla might like (but smaller). Pitch it as an innovation hub and startup incubator as well as an awesome teleworking place for high tech companies. Kit it out with nice simple desks with screens and power and internet, people can provide their own laptops and sip phone handsets or whatever. Charge for desks and cupboard/filing cabinets. Lets have a nice kitchen and chillout area with sofas/bean bags.
All the desk stuff would clear away easily and leave the space free for evening and weekend events like soldering classes or reprap building etc. There would be some space available all the time for making stuff (or leaving repraps on building things) but the focus during the day would be on office space.
I think if the direction changes towards a dual purpose space which gets the space doing something useful during the day as well as evening and weekends would be financially easier. I do realise that this might not fit with what other people want the space to be, which is totally fine, we are quite happy in our office right now and the hackspace isn't essential to our plans. If the idea is to go for more heavy industrial stuff (like building motorbikes/renovating vehicles etc) then cool, go for that. But if people want to do a bit of soldering, textile making with lilipad arduinos, modeling with repraps and similar machines then that would seem compatible.
It might be possible to have a high tech space, plus have some pillar drills, lathes, laser cutters, milling machines etc shoved in someone's garage. This would kind of split the hackspace into clean/dirty on separate sites, I don't know if this would bother people or not.

Interested in your feedback,

Alan.

[Jacqui Caren]

On 06/07/2012 15:13, Alan Wood wrote:
> Well this sounds like an interesting commercial route (and there are
> already some like this in the states) but it doesn't really match our
> community oriented non-profit organisation. I also don't think making
> should be confined to evenings and weekends, I'm personally a 15 hour
> a day maker and use RHS for example at all different times.

The key advantage of a hackspace to me would be the ability to work on
projects with others as well as pick up new skills and pass on whatever
I can remember of the stuff I have picked up :-)

Having a space to work on things is not important to me.

Jacqui