Moving Groups to the Forum?

[jagmills]

Good afternoon everyone!

Over the last few weeks I've noticed a very steady decline in the use of our Google Groups page, and a huge increase in use of our forum www.shm-forum.org.uk

With the ability to upload media, videos, nice organisational categories and being able to control access to certain "members-only" issues and topics, the forum (based on Discourse) is proving very popular. It's a cleaner interface (in my opinion) as well, and something that I would like to encourage our members and supporters to use.

I'd like to see if anyone is interested in keeping the Groups page, and their reasons for such. From an organisation perspective it is much easier to have as few sites as possible, and it makes it much cleaner for any new or prospective members to find out about what we're up to - it can be daunting with many options, and arguably it can also be off-putting if someone comes into the Groups and sees there haven't been any updates in weeks, while all the discussion is happening elsewhere that they're unaware of.

Again - just spouting my opinion, but the place Google Groups shines is the ability to bulk notify anyone who is subscribed here to any news. Takumo and I have discussed how this functionality is also achievable through the forum with a custom plugin.

Please let me know your opinions for and against this idea.

Kind Regards

Chris

[Robin Fordham]

Tl;dr don't mind losing the list myself if we have a bulk notification facility, but wonder how many lurkers/potential members we might lose.

Have to say I am a fan of mailing lists, there are a few I sub to and keep apprised and occasionally post to. Because it lands in my inbox it's convenient for me to pick up and to post to, I think if these groups were a forum only I wouldn't be bothered to go to the forum and check up or make a post I would just lose touch with them, surrey Linux user group is a prime example.

Having said that because I am much more involved in the hackspace... oops, makerspace I am willing to make the effort to use the forum. I do wonder however if there are many lurkers who may convert to being active members at some point who are I'm the situation above of who we may lose, and are we really bothered, maybe it's a case of lose a few lurkers but build a stronger community.

I am also very keen on the ease of bulk notifying members of stuff which comes from a mailing list.

I do wonder if I would have replied to this if it was on the forum.....

Br.

Robin.

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[Alan Wood]

What is the overhead to keep it?

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regards

Al

[Mark Hanford]

Nobody is using it. Nothing has been posted to it for ages. It's yet another place someone has to post announcements - when we generally struggle to get anyone to post anything at all.

The forum will send announcements. 

The forum will send digests of all activity if you want it to. 

The forum has a structured hierarchy that means I can find information (try finding a 2 year old topic on rLab about lasers and not giving up amongst all the chat)

The forum supports formatting and in-line media.

The forum integrates with the website.

In my view, the cost is one of duplicated effort. I can't be bothered to maintain announcements and enquiries on there. If someone wants to do it, nobody will stop them. We have a forum, the group, the website, twitter, facebook, irc, and nobody that has the time to coordinate all that.

[Winkleink]

Different Question.

What is the purpose for the:
Mailing List

Forum

IRC

When the move to the Forum happened it felt like the conversations that were happening there moved to IRC and not the Forum. 
Since I've not made it to the space this year and I'm on the mailing list I've seen very little public activity.
I get the Forum Digest which is great and it looks like with the new space and possibly change in committee the Forum is more active

But there have appeared to be things all discussed, all decided and then announced that never touched the Forum or Mailing List.

It would be great to figure out the different forms of communication and their purpose before deciding if needed.

Mark: all great benefits of a forum.
What is not listed is easy and quick interaction for all members/would be members and not just the core group.
Haven't done it in a while, but when I look at the forum there may be 6-10 people posting.

When we actively used the mailing list that number was higher.

Personally, I like the mailing list.  

See what's happening

Ask questions

Respond and provide input

All without having to go to a website and login.

Works easily from desktop and mobile.

Lower barrier to involvement should result in more people being involved.

Forums are perfect for topics with longevity.

For quick interactions the mailing list I believe is better suited.

Albert.

On Fri, 14 Oct 2016 at 09:16 Alan Wood <folkn...@gmail.com> wrote:

What is the overhead to keep it?

On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 6:39 AM, Robin Fordham <ging...@gmail.com> wrote:

Tl;dr don't mind losing the list myself if we have a bulk notification facility, but wonder how many lurkers/potential members we might lose.

Have to say I am a fan of mailing lists, there are a few I sub to and keep apprised and occasionally post to. Because it lands in my inbox it's convenient for me to pick up and to post to, I think if these groups were a forum only I wouldn't be bothered to go to the forum and check up or make a post I would just lose touch with them, surrey Linux user group is a prime example.

Having said that because I am much more involved in the hackspace... oops, makerspace I am willing to make the effort to use the forum. I do wonder however if there are many lurkers who may convert to being active members at some point who are I'm the situation above of who we may lose, and are we really bothered, maybe it's a case of lose a few lurkers but build a stronger community.

I am also very keen on the ease of bulk notifying members of stuff which comes from a mailing list.

I do wonder if I would have replied to this if it was on the forum.....

Br.

Robin.

On 11 Oct 2016 14:28, "jagmills" <jagm...@gmail.com> wrote:

Good afternoon everyone!

Over the last few weeks I've noticed a very steady decline in the use of our Google Groups page, and a huge increase in use of our forum www.shm-forum.org.uk

With the ability to upload media, videos, nice organisational categories and being able to control access to certain "members-only" issues and topics, the forum (based on Discourse) is proving very popular. It's a cleaner interface (in my opinion) as well, and something that I would like to encourage our members and supporters to use.

I'd like to see if anyone is interested in keeping the Groups page, and their reasons for such. From an organisation perspective it is much easier to have as few sites as possible, and it makes it much cleaner for any new or prospective members to find out about what we're up to - it can be daunting with many options, and arguably it can also be off-putting if someone comes into the Groups and sees there haven't been any updates in weeks, while all the discussion is happening elsewhere that they're unaware of.

Again - just spouting my opinion, but the place Google Groups shines is the ability to bulk notify anyone who is subscribed here to any news. Takumo and I have discussed how this functionality is also achievable through the forum with a custom plugin.

Please let me know your opinions for and against this idea.

Kind Regards

Chris

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regards

Al

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[Mark Hanford]

Conversations happen where people want them to. We don't have a Department of Communication. Anyone wants to discuss something should start a topic on the forum. 

Regarding "only core people post there" well, so what? Anyone can post there! Nobody is posting here either, apart from this now negative thread. Doesn't look good either.

Nobody has posted a question there asking about how to get notifications set up. I get daily digests from ticking one box in my preferences. 

People fear change. Well, until recently we were working out of a borrowed corner of a warehouse. Change is inevitable if we want to grow, otherwise we might as well go sit in a pub and talk about Arduinos.

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regards

Al

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[Alan Wood]

Hmm could the announcements made on the forum be automatically copied to the mailing list?

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regards

Al

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Al

[Mark Hanford]

Why? What would that achieve? If people have been lurking on the GG for so long that they can't do without the updates, but still don't know about the forum or be bothered to register, what are we announcing to them for? 

[Alan Wood]

The point would be to reduce any maintenance overhead

[Mark Hanford]

It doesn't though. Because they'll reply here, and either nobody sees it, or someone has to now keep a conversation going here AND on the forum. Reducing maintenance overhead is removing the GG. It doesn't have a single feature we can't get from the forum.

[Alan Pope]

Hi

On 14 October 2016 at 06:39, Robin Fordham <ging...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Have to say I am a fan of mailing lists, there are a few I sub to and keep
> apprised and occasionally post to. Because it lands in my inbox it's
> convenient for me to pick up and to post to, I think if these groups were a
> forum only I wouldn't be bothered to go to the forum and check up or make a
> post I would just lose touch with them, surrey Linux user group is a prime
> example.
>

Ditto. For over 10 years there's been moves in various communities I'm
either active or lurking in to move from mailing lists to forums. I
liked that the content came to my inbox, because I have that open all
day long and can read it anywhere I have my email client. In general
over the various communities I've been in, when younger people come in
who have a preference for forums, that gets pushed and people migrate
away from the mailing lists. I used to argue that we should keep the
mailing lists, but in most cases the forum gets setup anyway, promoted
instead of the list, and attrition happens.

It's now inevitable. For me it's sad, and means I'll not keep up with
things as a result. However rather than argue for keeping the mailing
list I just accept it and that's one less community to keep up with.

Cheers,
Al.

[Alan Wood]

Can we invite everyone on the GG to the forum and have a default email digest to keep them in touch?

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regards

Al

[Mark Hanford]

I keep saying that. The whole "I like the email" is not a valid reason not to move, because, and I don't know how else to say this, you CAN do that with the forum too! People don't want to hear that though, so I won't say it again. 

Of course everyone is "invited" to the forum. In the same was as everyone was "invited" to come to the GG. It's implied in the fact it's an online community!

I'm bailing out of this thread now. It's too hard and I just keep repeating myself when I say you can submit by email, you can get updates by email, you can get digests by email. I give up.

[jagmills]

My only reason for bringing this up is that the forum was initially set up to complement the mailing list, but I've seen a huge swing across to usage there - and I suspect there are reasons for this to become a more popular option.

What kind of things would you be missing out on Al? The forum allows one to sign in with a google account, receive notifications and daily digests much in the same way as google groups. Perhaps what I'm missing is that the groups page is much easier in terms managing multiple mailing lists to follow?

I'd just like to hear what our members and followers want initially. There are many ways we can replicate behaviour on the forum, link the google group here, etc. that we can consider moving forward. As Mark put "reducing maintenance overhead", I more see of it as streamlining our online presence where we can ("where we can" being the important part).

Kind Regards

Chris

[Alan Pope]

On 14 October 2016 at 10:11, Mark Hanford <ma...@hanfordonline.co.uk> wrote:
> I keep saying that. The whole "I like the email" is not a valid reason not
> to move, because, and I don't know how else to say this, you CAN do that
> with the forum too! People don't want to hear that though, so I won't say it
> again.
>

I wasn't aware of that. So thanks for letting me know. I have switched
on that feature (I assume it's this one:- http://imgur.com/a/72n52 )
to see how it goes.

Cheers,
Al.

[Alan Pope]

On 14 October 2016 at 10:14, jagmills <jagm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What kind of things would you be missing out on Al? The forum allows one to
> sign in with a google account, receive notifications and daily digests much
> in the same way as google groups. Perhaps what I'm missing is that the
> groups page is much easier in terms managing multiple mailing lists to
> follow?
>

I dunno, I've never used the option. So thanks to Mark's super
friendly and helpful mail, I now have and will see.

Cheers,
Al.

[Alan Wood]

I already use the forum and it's email facility, while not as seamless as GG it does work. However my point wasn't about me (I already use the forum!) It was about using the email list of GG users and inviting them to the forum using discourse's bulk invite feature. If worded correctly this would give existing GG users a painless opportunity to migrate to the forum as we depreciate the GG.

Cheers,
Al.

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[Mark Hanford]

As I'm not reading this thread any more I can't reply to your excellent points. A bulk invite would be a good idea though, were I to hear about it.

[Claire Lonsdale]

The other thing that would "bridge the gap" if one aimed for Forum
only and pension off the email group..

I get emails through when a Forum post is made or replied to. If there
was a "reply here" method from within the email itself, then I could
reply quickly, especially on Mobile devices, without additional login
having followed forum link.
(Similar to directly replying to a Linked In message without a login
there, for example).
Maybe me technical limitations and possible I should just aim to stay
logged in to forum on a tab on all devices. But it could make the
difference to people bothering to reply to something that deserves
feedback..

Claire

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>>
>>
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>> Al
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[Winkleink]

There are opinions from all as to the possible/best way forward

Until it happens the reality will not be known.

Maybe:

Bulk invite to the forum all GG members.
With recommendation to sign up for Digest to stay informed.

SHM has moved to having a dedicated space without GG being the primary forum for discussions.

I like Claire's suggestion for replying from the digest/notification email.

I read most emails on my phone so having to then login to a forum to reply in most cases is a step I don't take unless I have a very strong opinion.  

Personally summary: Pull the trigger kill GG and make it clear to all that the party has moved to the Forum.  Effort can then be made to have the form meet our needs.

On Fri, 14 Oct 2016 at 10:32 Mark Hanford <ma...@hanfordonline.co.uk> wrote:

As I'm not reading this thread any more I can't reply to your excellent points. A bulk invite would be a good idea though, were I to hear about it.

On 14 October 2016 at 10:27, Alan Wood <folkn...@gmail.com> wrote:

I already use the forum and it's email facility, while not as seamless as GG it does work. However my point wasn't about me (I already use the forum!) It was about using the email list of GG users and inviting them to the forum using discourse's bulk invite feature. If worded correctly this would give existing GG users a painless opportunity to migrate to the forum as we depreciate the GG.

On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 10:18 AM, Alan Pope <al...@popey.com> wrote:

On 14 October 2016 at 10:14, jagmills <jagm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What kind of things would you be missing out on Al? The forum allows one to
> sign in with a google account, receive notifications and daily digests much
> in the same way as google groups. Perhaps what I'm missing is that the
> groups page is much easier in terms managing multiple mailing lists to
> follow?
>

I dunno, I've never used the option. So thanks to Mark's super
friendly and helpful mail, I now have and will see.

Cheers,
Al.

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regards

Al

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[Robin Fordham]

I agree with Albert's thoughts, plus maybe a pinned post somewhere about how to configure and use a forum account regarding email and mailing list mode, For those who are that way inclined.

Robin.

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Al

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[jagmills]

I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong, my replies keep getting deleted :)

Claire, there is already the option to do that on the forum. I've not used it myself, but Folknology often uses the reply-by-email feature. I hear it's not perfect (perhaps Al can comment), but when a reply is sent in this way a wee email icon is added near the person's name in the thread.

[Claire Lonsdale]

If the reply-in-email is built in, that's great!
I did have a look in Preferences when logged into forum and couldn't
see anything relating to it though, which is odd..

Claire

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[Winkleink]

I just replied to a Forum post from the email notification. I have the following checked. 

 Send me an email when someone messages me

 Send me an email when someone quotes me, replies to my post, mentions my @username, or invites me to a topic

So, received an email when there was a follow up post and just replied from the email.

Happy bunny.

[jagmills]

The Winkleink seal of approval :)

[Julian Warren]

To be honest I still in some ways prefer the Google Group, but as folks seemed eager to push the forum I've gone over to using it to keep the peace and try to ensure that there's one place that gets used.

That being the case to me the challenges fall into a few areas...

Brand alignment

Can we rename the Google Group?  If not then that's a problem.

Removing barriers to Forum membership and usage.

If we want people to use the forum how can we make it easy and effective for them?

The way I see it there are two types of user, the most active ones seem to have been pushed over to the forum now.  It's the helpful friendly ones (for example from other hackspaces / makerspaces) that we'd like to come over too.

My questions would be:

 1) Google sign in for the Forum - does this work if so how well?

 2) Can we make a really simple page / linkable forum post showing how to get the most Google Group like behaviour from the forum settings?

 3) How can the forum be improved, especially for more mailing list like usage?

Getting people across.

If we're happy that the new utopia is ready for people to easily migrate *then* we send out the mass invite to the Google Group membership (excluding live members if it's easy).

(Personally I'd then also have announcements copied to the Google Group for say a year if we can get discourse to do that automagically - ideally with a friendly message inviting people to come over to the forum as the group will be discontinued on <date>.)

What to do with the Google Group.

After an appropriate time we can either delete the group or just leave a message at the top to direct people to the forum instead.  A redirect message might need an occasional bump, but that's not exactly hard labour.

[Malcolm Napier]

I am Google Group User but not a fan - see earlier comments about GG by others, with which I agree. I am watching the new system with interest as I would prefer not to be dealing with Google Groups, do not wish to be distracted by IRC and hope that the more interesting interface represents useful underlying fuctionality.

Because of the laser cutter thread I am already signed up for the new system and have posted a couple of times. I also requested weekly digests, which I had been receiving until 11 October - when I didn't receive one? At least, I requested Activity Summary, Weekly. Looking at the small print it says "When I don't visit here, send me an email summary of popular topics and replies".

Also the digests appear to be making judgements based on popularity of posts, which is fine but not quite what I was after.

I have increased the frequency of the Activity Summary to "Every 3 days" but wonder if there is a way to request an email that contains a list of the headings of all threads where there have been postings since the last digest and the ability to click through on the ones that interest me? Is this perchance Mailing List Mode? If it is, is there a reson why there is not a Weekly updates option?

In summary, go for the new system but help people who are mainly familiar with Google Groups and like email as their main form of contact to get their settings right.