sgb

[hugh.w...@gmail.com]

no not "Scsffolding Great Britain" for whom I once worked in the
1950ies
but our parent group which I have just unsubscibed from because not
only is there a wave of spam but people answer and discuss it TOO.
such a wsste of effort <sigh>
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.britain?lnk=li

My LAPHHM one name study is generating one email a week with new data
http://wc.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=lapham

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=LAPHAM+one+name+study&btnG=Google+Search

and Welsh Families list and board is ticking over
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/monfh2/

which is the daughter of
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/monfh/

which is the daughter of MONMOUTHSHIRE Mailing List on Rootsweb
http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/WLS/MONMOUTHSHIRE.html

Ater a server hardware repair
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hugh/
and all teh other http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/

are back on line but the ftp and editor FILEMAN
http://freepages.rootsweb.com/fileman/file_manager.cgi
is still off line until error checking is finished

(about 72 hours so far)

anyone esl making web oages or doing genealogy?

please post your surnames and brickwalls

regards

Hugh W

[Philip Maddocks]

My current brickwall is my Mother's greatgrandmother Ann WHEELER nee
Lawrence "born Epping" about 1851 according to census. No sign of her
marrying her partner Thomas William WHEELER born Camberwell 1847. Possible
Hannah Lawrence born just outside Epping in Theydon Garnon in about 1853.
He was only old enough to marry in about 1863 and produced first child at
about 19 in 1866.

Any clues or suggestions?

Family mostly born in Camberwell but great grandmother born in Croydon in
1878

Philip Maddocks

[Hugh Watkins]

which census?
this?

Source information: RG10/679
Registration district: Lambeth
Sub-registration district: Kennington Second
ED, institution, or vessel: 29
Folio: 113
Page: 35 (click to see others on page)
Household schedule number: 193
GSU Number: 823331

Thomas Wheeler abt 1845 Camberwell, Surrey, England Head Lambeth
London Painter and decorator

Anne Wheeler abt 1842 Epping, Essex, England Wife Lambeth London

Eliza R Wheeler abt 1869 Camberwell, Surrey, England Daughter
Lambeth London

Walter Jas Wheeler abt 1866 Camberwell, Surrey, England Son
Lambeth London

what certificates do you have?
what disticts are they issued in?

http://www.fhsc.org.uk/genuki/REG/lnd.htm

http://www.fhsc.org.uk/genuki/REG/

start with bride Essex Epping
Registers now divided between Epping Forest, Harlow and Waltham Forest
districts.

but some couples never married even in those days

have you looked at the fiche?

Hugh W

--
SNAPS http://slim2005.blogspot.com/

GENEALOGE http://hughw36.blogspot.com/

[Renia]

Exact Search Results - 1861 England Census  Refine your search

 All Census Results

Viewing 1-7 of 7

View Record	Name	Estimated Birth Year	Birthplace	Relationship	Civil Parish	County/Island	View Image
View Record	Ann Lawrence	abt 1851	Westham, Essex, England	Daughter	West Ham	Essex
View Record	Charles Lawrence	abt 1817	Stepney, Middlesex, England	Wife	West Ham	Essex
View Record	Eliza Lawrence	abt 1849	Westham, Essex, England	Daughter	West Ham	Essex
View Record	Henry Lawrence	abt 1847	Westham, Essex, England	Son	West Ham	Essex
View Record	James Lawrence	abt 1820	Westham, Essex, England	Head	West Ham	Essex
View Record	Sarah Lawrence	abt 1854	Westham, Essex, England	Daughter	West Ham	Essex
View Record	Thomas Lawrence	abt 1844	Westham, Essex, England	Son	West Ham	Essex

Address: 20 Augur's Cottages, West Ham, Municipal Ward of Plaistow
James Lawrence was Ag Lab. So were sons Henry and James.


Philip Maddocks wrote:

.

[Philip Maddocks]

Thanks Renia but West Ham is pushing it a bit

Philip Maddocks

[Philip Maddocks]

Which Census is this? probably 1871?

1881 adds Herbert, George and Lily; Eliza R was known as Rose (and her
grandson tells me he knew her as Rosina).

By 1891 they have added a son William Wheeler b1883. They either paced
themselves or lost some along the way.


So far have only the birth certificate for Lily Frances Wheeler who was
their daughter born in 1878 at Pawson Road Croydon. I checked with
Croydon.gov.uk Local Studies Library and their directory for that time had
Thomas Wheeler painter, resident at Pawson Road.

1881 Census and 1891 also have her mother born in Epping.

By fiche do you mean going to an LDS and ordering a film? This is a bit
impractical at the moment as it is an 80 mile round trip to my nearest LDS
and they are only open one evening per week. It would take an hour and a
half to get there and I would need to take an afternoon off. I will have to
plan it for when I was on holiday.

I had considered it a possibility that she never married or that she married
twice. There is a narrow window for her marrying before him but it is
possible. Is it likely or possible that she used her married name when
marrying Thomas but her maiden name on birth certificates?

When you say "start with bride Essex Epping" what do you mean?

Can I get your opinion on this possible coincidence.
there was a Hannah Lawrence born Theydon Garnon just outside Epping in 1843
our Ann was living in Pawson Road in Croydon
Frederick Lawrence born 1852 Theydon Garnon living near to Pawson Road in
Croydon...

worth considering? If so I will try for the 1861 Census for Essex and see
if he has the same parents as the girl in the '51.

Thanks for the trouble

Philip Maddocks



----- Original Message -----
From: "Hugh Watkins" <hugh.w...@gmail.com>
To: <sg...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 10:17 PM
Subject: [sgbm] Re: sgb

[Renia]

The 1851 census gives James as born in Plaistow, so:

Exact Search Results - 1851 England Census  Refine your search

 All Census Results

Viewing 1-3 of 3

View Record	Name	Estimated Birth Year	Birthplace	Relationship	Civil Parish	County/Island	View Image

View Record

Ellen Lawrence

abt 1771

Romford, Essex, England

Head

West Ham

Essex

View Record	Sarah Lawrence	abt 1812	Plaistow, Essex, England

Daughter

West Ham

Essex

View Record	Thomas Lawrence	abt 1794	Plaistow, Essex, England	Son	West Ham	Essex

Address: Balaam (sic) Street - HO107/1768/535/20/63
Ellen was a charwoman, Thomas a railway labourer and Sarah a laundress. Thomas and Sarah unmarried.

Living also in Balaam Street  - HO107/1768/531/12/39
James Lawrence, Head, Marr, age 33, Farm Labourer, born Plaistow
Charlotte Lawrence, Wife, Marr, age 33, Farm Labourer, born Stepney, Middx
Mary Ann, Lawrence, Dau, age 10, Scholar, born Plaistow
Henry Lawrence, Son, age 4, born Plaistow
Eliza Lawrence, Dau, age 2, born Plaistow


Hugh Watkins wrote:

.

  

[Renia]

Sorry. Don't know how I got from Epping to West Ham! Shame.

Renia

[Renia]

Could she have been called Fanny?

Exact Search Results - 1851 England Census  Refine your search

 All Census Results

Viewing 1-4 of 4

View Record	Name	Estimated Birth Year	Birthplace	Relationship	Civil Parish	County/Island	View Image

View Record	Fanny Lawrence	abt 1849	Epping, Essex, England	Daughter	Theydon Bois	Essex
View Record	Mary Lawrence	abt 1825	Loughton, Essex, England	Wife	Theydon Bois	Essex
View Record	William Lawrence	abt 1845	Northweath, Essex, England	Son	Theydon Bois	Essex
View Record	Wm Lawrence	abt 1821	Enfield, Middlesex, England	Head	Theydon Bois	Essex

Philip Maddocks wrote:

.

[Philip Maddocks]

My father was found on FreeBMD registered in West Ham.  we all thought that he was born in Stoke Newington but he was born in Walthamstow which falls within West Ham RD.

 

I do appreciate the trouble though

[Renia]

OK, start with the 1891:

View Record

Wheeler, Annie

abt 1842

Epping, Essex, England

Wife

Camberwell	London
View Record	Wheeler, George	abt 1875	Camberwell, Surrey, England	Son	Camberwell	London
View Record	Wheeler, Herbert	abt 1874	Camberwell, Surrey, England	Son	Camberwell	London
View Record	Wheeler, Lily	abt 1878	Croydon, Surrey, England	Daughter	Camberwell	London
View Record	Wheeler, Thomas	abt 1847	Camberwell, Surrey, England	Head	Camberwell	London
View Record	Wheeler, Willie	abt 1882	Camberwell, Surrey, England	Son	Camberwell	London

Philip Maddocks wrote:

.

[Philip Maddocks]

I don't think so but one of her daughters changed from an Eliza R on one Census to Rose on another.  My mother's mother's family from Suffolk used their middle names all the time.  If it were not for some poor transcription I would not have found her aunt in the 1901 and subsequently the FreeBMD.

 

Philip Maddocks

----- Original Message -----

From: Renia

To: sg...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 11:17 PM

Subject: [sgbm] Re: sgb

[Renia]

Exact Search Results - 1871 England Census  Refine your search

 All Census Results

Viewing 1-4 of 4

View Record

Name

Estimated Birth Year

Birthplace

Relationship

Civil Parish or Township	County/Island	View Image
View Record	Anne Wheeler

abt 1842

Epping, Essex, England

Wife

Lambeth	London
View Record

Eliza R Wheeler

abt 1869

Camberwell, Surrey, England

Daughter

Lambeth

London

View Record

Thomas Wheeler

abt 1845

Camberwell, Surrey, England

Head

Lambeth

London

View Record

Walter Jas Wheeler

abt 1866

Camberwell, Surrey, England

Son

Lambeth

London

Philip Maddocks wrote:

.

[Renia]

Exact Search Results - 1881 England Census  Refine your search

 All Census Results

Viewing 1-7 of 7

View Record

Name

Estimated Birth Year

Birthplace

Relationship

Residence	View Image
View Record	Annie Wheeler	abt 1841	Epping, Essex, England	Wife	64 Clayton Road, Camberwell, London, England
View Record	George Wheeler

abt 1875

Camberwell, Surrey, England

Son

64 Clayton Road, Camberwell, London, England
View Record	Herbert Wheeler

abt 1874

Camberwell, Surrey, England

Son

64 Clayton Road, Camberwell, London, England
View Record	Lilly Wheeler

abt 1878

Croydon, Surrey, England

Daughter

64 Clayton Road, Camberwell, London, England
View Record	Rose Wheeler	abt 1868	Camberwell, Surrey, England	Daughter	64 Clayton Road, Camberwell, London, England
View Record	Thos. Wheeler

abt 1847

Camberwell, Surrey, England

Head

64 Clayton Road, Camberwell, London, England
View Record	Walter Wheeler

abt 1866

Camberwell, Surrey, England

Son

64 Clayton Road, Camberwell, London,

Philip Maddocks wrote:

.

[Philip Maddocks]

Do you have the transcription for the census or the film or CD copy of the
Census? any chance that Eliza R is actually Alice R?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Hugh Watkins" <hugh.w...@gmail.com>


which census?
this?

Source information: RG10/679
Registration district: Lambeth
Sub-registration district: Kennington Second
ED, institution, or vessel: 29
Folio: 113
Page: 35 (click to see others on page)
Household schedule number: 193
GSU Number: 823331

snip

Eliza R Wheeler abt 1869 Camberwell, Surrey, England Daughter
Lambeth London

snip

[Philip Maddocks]

Rose is off to Leyton with her husband Walter to have babies.  Her grandson will be pleased to get this.

 

I suspect (Eliza) Rose is mistranscribed on Birth indexes as Alice. I will risk £7 and get Alice's birth certificate and see if it turns out that her middle name is Rose or Rosina and that she has the required parents.

 

These are my people - includes William who went on to manage a cinema in Southend (our almost celebrity).  Lily Francis who had 10 Children including my grandfather and married a man called Edward Augustus Harrison who looked a lot like the actor from Dalziel and Pasco - unfortunately the older grumpy one.

 

Thanks again

Philip Maddocks

----- Original Message -----

From: Renia

To: sg...@googlegroups.com

[Renia]

This is the nearest one, as you say. (Your dates for her in your original message were about 10 years out, by the way!) Fanny Lawrence on the 1851, who I sent you earlier, was definitely aged 2, not 7, and the name was actually Hanna. the Hannah, below, was 18.

1861

View Record	Frederick Lawrence	abt 1852	Theydon Garnon, Essex, England	Son	Theydon Garnon	Essex
View Record	George Lawrence	abt 1848	Theydon Garnon, Essex, England	Son	Theydon Garnon	Essex
View Record	Hannah S Lawrence	abt 1843	Epping, Essex, England	Daughter	Theydon Garnon	Essex
View Record	James Lawrence	abt 1816	Enfield, Middlesex, England	Head	Theydon Garnon	Essex
View Record	Mary Ann Lawrence	abt 1818	Theydon Garnon, Essex, England	Wife	Theydon Garnon	Essex

Philip Maddocks wrote:

.

[Renia]

Eliza R age 2. (But don't let that put you off. I have seen people
change their names from census to census!)

Renia

> .
>

[Renia]

From FreeBMD:

Births Jun 1843
Lawrence	Hannah Slacia		Epping	12	100

Looks like that last census was the right one. Now it's for you to figure out where Slacia comes from!

Renia

Philip Maddocks wrote:

.

[Philip Maddocks]

I am sorry that is very sloppy of me.  Frederick is spot on though:  working as a carpenter in Croydon in 1881.

 

I will order Eliza's Birth certificate and hope that her mother has at least a middle initial S; you never know.  I have found Eliza Rosia on the birth indexes born Q4 1868

 

I have to get some sleep I am making too many mistakes.

 

Thanks for your great help

 

Philip Maddocks

Available for look ups at Somerset County Archives if you ever need any help in this direction.

----- Original Message -----

From: Renia

To: sg...@googlegroups.com

[Philip Maddocks]

I don't know how I missed that.  I got her from the census but did all sorts of trawls for Lawrence in Epping and got nothing.

 

Philip Maddocks

----- Original Message -----

From: Renia

To: sg...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 11:57 PM

Subject: [sgbm] Re: sgb

[Renia]

At last!

Exact Search Results - 1851 England Census  Refine your search

 All Census Results

Viewing 1-6 of 6

View Record

Name

Estimated Birth Year

Birthplace

Relationship

Civil Parish	County/Island	View Image
View Record	William Cussop	abt 1831	Thoydon Garnon, Essex, England	Son-in-law	Theydon Garnon	Essex
View Record	Lucy Hider	abt 1845	Thoydon Garnon, Essex, England	Granddaughter	Theydon Garnon	Essex
View Record	Gwyn Mark Lawrence	abt 1848	Thoydon Garnon, Essex, England

Son

Theydon Garnon

Essex

View Record	Hannah Lawrence	abt 1843	Thoydon Garnon, Essex, England

Daughter

Theydon Garnon

Essex

View Record	James Lawrence	abt 1822	Enford, Middlesex, England

Head

Theydon Garnon

Essex

View Record

Mary Ann Lawrence

abt 1822	Thoydon Garnon, Essex, England	Wife	Theydon Garnon	Essex

Results per page  10 20 50

Viewing 1-6 of 6

Abuilp? Road:
James, 29 bricklayer, born Enfield.
Mary Ann, 29
Hannah & Lucy, 8 & 6, scholars (Lucy reads granddaughter)
Gwynn should be George, 3, scholar
William Cussop (surname pretty illegible), 20, farm labourer, brother-in-law (not son-in-law as in index)

Philip Maddocks wrote:

.

[Philip Maddocks]

Renia

 

To re-cap what I have at the moment:

 

My grgrgrandmother Annie nee Lawrence "born in Epping" from her daughter's birth certificate - she was born in Croydon.

 

Around the corner in Croydon about the same time is a Frederick Lawrence who was born in Epping and had a sister Hannah born about the same time as 'Annie' in the same registration district.  Father from Enfield and mother from Vauxhall.

 

I will get Hannah Slacia's birth certificate and see what that tells me - all the rest is down to speculation.  I cannot assume that Hannah and Annie are the same bod but I think it is a strong possibility. 

 

You have helped me tie Hannah to Frederick and somehow found Hannah on the FreeBMD where I had failed (even using wildcards and leaving out the first name).

 

Thank you again sincerely and if I can help you at all please let me know

 

Philip Maddocks

 

 

[Renia]

No problem. Happened to have the census forms open and love a challenge. My great-grandmother was born as Hannah, and is later found as Ann, Anne and Anna, with varying middle names of Sarah and Maria. Approx the same age as your Ann/Hannah. Suspect Ann or Anna might have appeared higher status so they changed the spelling, but that's a guess. Would love to know where Slacia comes from!

Regards,

Renia

[GenTre...@aol.com]

My Gt Grandmother was christened Susannah but was known as Annie.

 

So there is another variation around the name Ann.

 

Could  Slacia  have originally  been Alicia

 

Regards

AudreyM

[Philip Maddocks]

I am betting on Alicia but who knows. 

 

I have ordered the certificate so will inform the group when I get it next week.

I have just heard from Croydon that the Addison Road in 1881 is the same street in the A to Z now.  So my relly lived less than a mile from the carpenter from Epping who I suspect to have been her brother.

 

Philip Maddocks

[Renia]

Not a common name in England, but a name itself nonetheless:

US Census 1920

 All Census Results

Viewing 1-11 of 11

View Record	Name	Home in 1920 (City,County,State)	Estimated Birth Year	Birthplace	Race	View Image	Save This
View Record	Slacia Haynes	Union, Butler, Kansas	abt 1876	Indiana	White
View Record	Slacia Jarboe	Glen Dean, Breckinridge, Kentucky	abt 1904	Kentucky	White
View Record	Slacia Wack	Adams, Berkshire, Massachusetts	abt 1919	Massachusetts	White
View Record	Slacia Nesgoda	Easthampton, Hampshire, Massachusetts	abt 1915	Massachusetts	White
View Record	Slacia Norah	Buena Vista, Saginaw, Michigan	abt 1908	Michigan	White
View Record	Slacia Kalovski	Perth Amboy Ward 6, Middlesex, New Jersey	abt 1917	New Jersey	White
View Record	Stacia Spires [Slacia Spires]	Keyport, Monmouth, New Jersey	abt 1899	New Jersey	White
View Record	Alacia Aladge [Slacia Sledge]	Manhattan Assembly District 7, New York, New York	abt 1887	Jersey	White
View Record	Slacia Boyd	Gastonia, Gaston, North Carolina	abt 1906	North Carolina	White
View Record	Slacia Specht	Shippen, Cameron, Pennsylvania	abt 1900	Pennsylvania	White
View Record	Slacia Jarman	Brooklyn, Green, Wisconsin	abt 1855	Ireland	White

[Philip Maddocks]

I am trying not to get carried away with this but I have turned up the following with the IGI, Census 81 and FreeBMD in the past few hours with the leads you have given me.

 

There is a marriage for James Lawrence in Dec quarter 1842 in Epping to either Mary Ann Brett or Mary Ann Jessop who seems to be the most likely,  sister of William below? Error of transcription?  There were quite a few Jessops in the village in 1881.

 

Gwyn Mark Lawrence is likely George Lawrence and there is a George Lawrence from Epping married to a Caroline from Lambeth living out in Essex in 1881.  A George Mark Lawrence marries at the same time as Caroline Alefounder in 1871 in Epping.

 

Frederick is married to a Susannah from Butchwell Norfolk probably Beachamwell in Swaffham RD living in Croydon in 1881 and there is a marriage between a Frederick Lawrence and Susannah Maddy in Swaffham in 1879 before they move to Deptford and have a child before moving on to Croydon a year later to 17 Addison Road.

 

The father remarries to an Alice Jane from Vauxhall before the 1881 Census and there is a marriage in Epping in Sep 1879 between a James Lawrence at the same time as an Alice Jane King.

 

They all seem to have an attraction to the land south of the Thames or to spouses from south of the Thames.  I cannot wait to see what the certificates tell me.

 

Philip Maddocks

 

At last!

1861 Census

[Renia]

Just a reminder that I added some little correction notes on the end of the transcript I sent you.

Regards,

Renia

Philip Maddocks wrote:

[Philip Maddocks]

Thank you I did note these. And as I said I am trying not to get too carried away.

 

I will get back to you sometime next week.

Philip

----- Original Message -----

From: Renia

To: sg...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 11:05 AM

Subject: [sgbm] Re: sgb - Larence 1851 census

[Philip Maddocks]

Possible:

 

SALACIA

Gender: Feminine Usage: Roman Mythology

Derived from Latin sal meaning "salt". This was the name of the Roman goddess of salt water.

[hugh.w...@gmail.com]

Our ancestors were much more mobile than you would think

right now you are in the age of the steam train and the atlantic liner

today
http://www.theaa.com/travelwatch/planner_main.jsp
>From Epping Station,Essex
To WEST HAM STATION,London
Distance 16.4 miles you could walk that in 3 or 4 hours too

20 miles walking a day was the norm
to and from a market for example

so far from impossible unless you have contradictory evidence

Hugh W

[Philip Maddocks]

----- Original Message -----
From: <hugh.w...@gmail.com>
To: "soc_genealogy_britain_moderated" <sg...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2005 4:57 PM
Subject: [sgbm] Re: sgb - Lawrence


>

Fair comment. On the subject of why... Her father was listed as bricklayer
then labourer, her brother a carpenter; her possible husband a
painter/decorator. Business must have been booming.

Philip Maddocks

[Philip Maddocks]

Hannah Stacia Lawrence born 7/4/43 daughter of James Lawrence bricklayer and Mary Ann nee Jessop (illiterate).  Address "Epping Forest" In a caravan perhaps?

 

Eliza Rosina Wheeler born 18/9/78 daughter of Thomas Wheeler and Annie Statia nee Lawrence at 4 Queen Street Camberwell.

 

Thanks again Renia and others for the help in breaking down this wall.

[Philip Maddocks]

It occurs to me that

Annies mother could not read or write.  So what if her daughter was meant to be called Anastasia? and when her mother was asked she said slowly Ana - stacia.  If the registrar was hard of hearing or whatever, he may have assumed "Hannah Stacia" and/or Annie grew up thinking it was two separate names.  She is not called Hannah anywhere else I have seen.

 

Does that make any sense?