400k start times

[paul]

Hi all,

Being pretty new to randonneuring, I'm sure the subject of start times has come up before, but I'm particularly interested in 400k start times, as they have been the most demanding for me. I did Hopland 400k in 2024 by getting an uber to the start (3am alarm) and an uber home afterwards. The trip home was awful, I was so exhausted, cold and basically just wrecked that I couldn't even sleep when I got home. This year I got a motel near the start for the night before and the night after and it was much better. However, I still found it pretty unpleasant at the end, even though I could get in bed 30 minutes after finishing. I've also done 3 600ks this year which have somewhat of a similar day 1 to them.

Since the next 400k is the King Ridge 400 and certainly more arduous then most 400s, I thought I'd explore with Chatgpt (sorry!) about start times, and fed it all the previous results on rusa.org. 

Here's what it suggested. Would love to hear your opinions!

Note, I'm not under any misapprehension that Rob would adjust start times based on this, but just thought it was interesting.

"The SFR King Ridge 400k is one of the most beautiful and demanding brevets on the West Coast. With nearly 7,000 meters of climbing, stunning coastal descents, and inland heat to manage, it’s already a long day in the saddle. But there’s one element that makes or breaks the experience for many riders — and it isn’t their average speed or gearing choice.

It’s the start time.

🧠 What We Analyzed

We gathered historical finish times for the SFR King Ridge 400k from 2012 through 2024 — nearly 100 rider results — and asked two simple questions:

When do most riders finish, depending on the start time?

How disruptive is that finish time (and start time) to sleep, safety, and comfort?

We scored finish times based on how rider-friendly the time of day is (e.g. 2 a.m. = bad, 2 p.m. = great), and also scored start times based on how early you’d need to wake up (e.g. a 6 a.m. start often means a 3–4 a.m. alarm and broken sleep).

Then we averaged the two scores for each potential start time. The result?

🥇 The Optimal Start Time: 12:00 Noon

With a total comfort score of 88.5 out of 100, a 12:00 noon start time clearly stands out. Here’s why:

🛏️ Full Sleep Before You Ride

A noon start means you can wake up at a normal hour, eat breakfast, and roll out without scrambling.

Riders avoid the groggy 3 a.m. drive and the risk of sleep-deprived mistakes before even getting on the bike.

☀️ A Daylight Finish for Most Riders

The majority of riders finish between 8:00 and 14:00 the next day — in daylight, when it’s warmer, safer, and trains and buses are running.

Contrast this with the traditional 6 a.m. start, where many finish between 2:00 and 6:00 — the most sleep-disruptive window of the week.

🚲 Two Manageable Half-Nights, Not One Destroyed One

Yes, you’ll still be riding through one night — but it’s split more evenly, and your second "night" is typically avoided entirely.

This approach distributes fatigue better, which is especially valuable on a climbing-heavy route like King Ridge.

📊 Total Comfort Scores by Start Time

(Based on real SFR King Ridge 400k finisher data)

Start Time Avg.       Finish Comfort     Start-Time Sleep Score  🏆  Combined Score

      04:00                 47.0                       20                                       33.5

      06:00                 54.6                       50                                       52.3

      08:00                 62.2                       70                                       66.1

      10:00                  70.0                       90                                       80.0

🥇 12:00                   77.0                      100                                      88.5

The earlier the start, the more riders finish in the sleep-deprivation zone — and the less rest they get the night before.

2022 times (most recent event with most riders)

Rider	Elapsed Time	Finish (06:00 Start)	Comfort Score (06:00)	Finish (12:00 Start)	Comfort Score (12:00)
Adelstein, Esther	22:50	4:50	0	10:50	70
Andrew, Richard	23:48	5:48	20	11:48	70
Bickford, Matthew	23:48	5:48	20	11:48	70
Brier, Bill	19:55	1:55	0	7:55	50
Chan, Wai-Yin	22:31	4:31	0	10:31	70
Clement, Francois	26:14	8:14	50	14:14	100
Das, Sourav	26:15	8:15	50	14:15	100
Fretz, Michael	23:27	5:27	20	11:27	70
Hunt, Adam	22:31	4:31	0	10:31	70
Morvant, Zachary	16:53	22:53	30	4:53	0
Schneider, Florian	16:57	22:57	30	4:57	0
Willard, Geoff	18:16	0:16	0	6:16	20
Williams, Douglas	22:50	4:50	0	10:50	70
Total			220		760

Cheers,

Paul

[Drew Levitt]

Hi Paul,

It was great to ride with you, albeit briefly, on yesterday's brevet! Kudos on a very quick stop in Jenner; I never saw you again.

Generative AI is amazing, really; it's incredible how often a model that fundamentally doesn't "understand" anything about anything gets important things right. But the underlying truth remains: generative models like ChatGPT fundamentally don't understand anything about anything.

What an analysis of "the most and least inconvenient times of day to start a brevet" misses is what times of day (or night) most riders are likely to encounter the cruxes of the route. In the case of King Ridge, those cruxes are as follows:

1. Tam Junction to Pantoll Campground, mile 8

2. Joy Rd, mile 64

3. Willow Creek Rd descent, mile 70.8

4. Meyers Grade, mile 84

5. Kruse Ranch Rd descent, mile 98.1

6. Stewarts Point-Skaggs Springs Rd + Tin Barn Rd, mile 106.8

7. King Ridge Rd descent, mile 125.2

8. Old Cazadero Rd, mile 133

9. Sweetwater Springs Rd, mile 145.3

(10. Graton Rd, mile 175.4)

(11. Wilson Hill, mile 209.4)

Let's do some quick math. The sun sets at 8:30 pm on June 6. Of 95 finishers known to RUSA (including permanent riders), the median finishing time is 23:53, or 10.4 mph overall average speed. Assuming constant overall speed (admittedly a flawed assumption), that would mean that, if the brevet began at noon, the sun would set on the median rider at mile 88.4. That means that rider would just be cresting the top of Meyers Grade, and would have to face down the unpaved Kruse Ranch Rd descent, the demanding Stewarts Point-Skaggs Springs Rd + Tin Barn Rd climb, the technical and poorly paved King Ridge Rd descent, the unpaved climbs and descents on Old Cazadero Rd, and the extremely taxing and incredibly sketchily paved Sweetwater Springs Rd climb and descent, all in the dark. I can only speak for myself, but for me: that is a big fat "no thank you."

In short, it is vital that riders cover at least cruxes 3-9 during daylight hours. Any consideration of start time must take this local-knowledge-specific observation into consideration. I don't fault ChatGPT for this: it fundamentally doesn't understand anything about anything, and therefore certainly can't be faulted for not understanding where the central challenges of this most challenging of routes lie.

Miraculously, I completed the Adventure Series in 2023. I DNF'd King Ridge in July with about 72 miles to go, having faced down all but the last two cruxes listed above. I had been riding solo for more than 100 extremely strenuous miles at that point, and I found the solo nighttime riding simply too unsafe to justify continuing. I ended up completing King Ridge as a permanent that fall, but in the reverse direction (beginning with an overnight leg out to Healdsburg), and even that took me more than 24 hours. But either way - the drawn direction starting at 6 am, or the opposite direction starting at 11 pm - you encounter all the technical bits in daylight, and you can't put a price on that.

I said to Landon and Ethan in Jenner yesterday that the whole Adventure Series is (and I mean this lovingly) by sadists, for masochists; and the King Ridge 400K is perhaps the starkest example of this. Certainly if there is a harder one-day ride out there, I don't want to know about it. :) But if I can finish it, so can you. Just plan to ride the night leg with a companion, or bring a lot of caffeine pills.

 - Drew

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[paul]

Hi Drew,

thanks for the company on Saturday, was good chatting with you as I do tend to ride on my own too much.

You're absolutely right that chatgpt doesn't understand anything about anything, but I think the fault mainly lies with me and the limited and naive set of parameters I gave it. I was thinking that a lot of the ride is going to be in the dark for most people anyway, and didn't even think about important technical descents going from daylight to night time. I also overlooked other important things like refueling options at night which might not be available. I think your analysis is great and maybe it indicates the start time should be earlier! Still, I was just hoping to provoke some discussion about start times. One of my favourite events last year was the Davis Grandmother's redux overnight 300k starting at 7pm. Though it was pancake flat, starting just before sunset and finishing just after sunrise was awesome.

Old Caz took a lot out of me and am not sure whether adding another 5-7 hours or so for King Ridge is a good idea or not...

Cheers,

Paul

[Kitty Goursolle]

In 2007,the Hopland 400 started at noon. We had to ride all night long, but we finished in daytime. Todd (SFR-RBA)wanted us PBP hopefuls to experience an all-nighter! This made it a lot easier for finish control volunteers as well. Mountain House Road in the dark was sketchy, with several rough unpaved bits, I for one had to take it a lot slower than in daylight. All in all, the schedule worked well for the riders, both in transport to and from the start and getting more night riding experience. 

For the few, the proud, and the brave, that can complete the King Ridge 400 K in the 27 hours, it makes sense to start in the early am to maximize daylight riding time for those difficult climbs and descents. 

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[Drew Levitt]

I believe SFR is planning a Davis Nighttime 200K on July 12 this year :) Agreed an intentionally ride-through-the-whole-night event sounds fun (in that special rando sense of the word).

Drew Levitt

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+1 775 553 8488

Pronouns: he/him/his

[C. Duque]

The 2007 Hopland 400k was my first 400k brevet  as Kitty mentioned, we started at noon and to me, it was a great idea not just to the PBP bound riders but to those of us who just don't like early starts. Riding difficult parts of an event at night can also be beneficial if the weather is hot. However I think that on an event with unpaved sections, the rider's off-road riding skills play a big part on how she/he rates a day (or more) on the bike; riding hard/technical parts at night may not be the idea  of fun for some, to me it sounds great plus having events that start at different times could make some of the same "old" routes fresh.

Here's my write up form that 2007 Hopland 400k:

https://bike.duque.net/2007-400k.htm

Carlos

On Mon, May 19, 2025 at 8:08 AM Kitty Goursolle <kgour...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Eric Norris]

Paul:

“… exhausted, cold and basically just wrecked …” 

You may be new to randonneuring, but you’ve obviously already gained a great understanding of the sport! Hope you also learning about Randonnesia, which allows us to keep returning to the starting line.

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com
Insta: @CampyOnlyGuy
YouTube: YouTube.com/CampyOnlyGuy 

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[paul]

Hi Eric,

I have indeed developed Randonnesia, though I think I've had symptoms in different forms over the years already...

Cheers,

Paul

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[paul]

Thanks Carlos and Kitty. It is interesting hearing your feedback from the noon start. Seems chatgpt might be on to something after all ;)

Doing further searches, it seems that afternoon or evening starts do feature in some 400ks at some times in some places, but super early starts seem to be much more in favour.

Cheers,

Paul

[Rob Hawks]

I remain skeptical about those 'conclusions'. I think the issue of start time for King Ridge has been adequately explained. A lot of thought went into that and in fact the start time for that has been 'relaxed' a little bit over the years, as I recall it being closer to 5am than 6am originally.

That leaves Hopland. I rode that first version of the route in 2007 and I think Carlos and my finish times were close though we never rode together on that ride (we did do the whole route together in later years). 

Here are the finish groupings for all finishers through 2019. I think this was updated afterward but I couldn't put my hands on that right away and the distribution didn't really change much:

With a start time of 6am, given the usual time of year this is run (very late March, but more often early very early April) rides would have less than one hour of riding in the dark at the start (begins getting light at 6:30), and most riders finish between midnight and 2am. Given sunset at 7:30pm on April 1st (civil twilight at 7:50) many/most riders would have 4.5 to 6 or maybe 7 hours of riding in the dark. If you start at noon, 18 hours is 6am which is before most riders would finish. Therefore, most riders with a noon start will have 11 hours and 23 minutes of riding in the dark. That is kinda close to twice as much riding in the dark, and for me that pushes the finish even further away from when I last slept.

So, do you want to almost double the amount of riding in the dark (you'll ride more slowly because of that and increase the chances of finishing after sunrise) for the option of sleeping in before the start, what an hour or maybe two more? (I'm guessing most people won't gain 6 hours of sleep with a noon start vs. a 6am start).

I think this is one big reason why some people think the 400km is the hardest of the 4 components of the SR series.

rob hawks

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[paul]

Thanks for the insight Rob. I'd be a bit hesitant to claim any 'conclusions' anywhere, nor that a couple of hours extra sleep before the start has any particularly important impact. I thought that my, albeit meagre, experiences might have indicated that there may be alternative start time approaches for 400ks that might be collectively beneficial for many riders. Admittedly, there are a lot of 'might's in there...

I am naturally an early riser and getting up at 2am doesn't phase me at all. I think it's more the finishing at 2am that affects me. Perhaps I'll try to gather more data by doing a Hopland 400k perm every month at each hour of the day for the next two years. Will get back to you with the results!

Cheers,

Paul

[Eric Larsen]

I rode King Ridge 400 with a night start (10 pm as I recall) in reverse with Bryan Kilgore one year. It was really great because we got out to Healdsburg around 6am, had coffee at the Starbucks and the sunrise at the Sweetwater climb, followed by all the really spectacular segments of the route in the daytime. To me, that is an important consideration in start times - where you’ll be on the route at a given start time and pace.

E

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[Megan Arnold]

+1 for new slogan!!! 

The Adventure Series ... by sadists, for masochists ♥️

Drew, have you considered a career in marketing???

- Megan Arnold

current read: Everything She Touched: The Life of Ruth Asawa

art | writing | bookshop*

* Disclosure: I am an affiliate of Bookshop.org and will earn a commission if you click through and make a purchase from the kid sister press shop.

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From: sfra...@googlegroups.com <sfra...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Drew Levitt <drew....@gmail.com>
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To: pa...@sfr24.sbrk.co.uk <pa...@sfr24.sbrk.co.uk>
Cc: San Francisco Randonneurs <sfra...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [SFRandon] 400k start times

 

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[Sourav Das]

The lack of transit options for riders not local to SF is another factor to consider for start/finish times. In 2022 I got a ride to the start and finished in the wee hours of the morning. Besides incidentally having company for riding through the night, finishing at that time allowed me to take the train out of SF immediately after.

But you also can't use the same logic to justify a later start time. The calculation is completely different if you are early in the ride and there is still significant riding to do after a whole night. Much of it comes down to how you are doing at the time of riding and not always something that you can plan ahead of time. Given all the considerations discussed earlier, there is basically no ideal start/finish time for a 400k.

Sourav

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[richar...@gmail.com]

Sourav – there is one 400km in North America that one can start and finish in daylight.

Denali Randonneurs – Anchorage – Seward – Anchorage  400km -  starts at 4am in daylight and I have finished the ride in daylight after 10am – Sunset after 11:30pm – then twilight zone time.  The 400am start time is to allow riders that are completing the 200km route to Seward to catch the train back to Anchorage.

Thus 4am is an ideal start time.

My favorite 400km – however I might just do 200km this year. Depends on the weather. One of the best 400kms in NA.

Lights usually only needed when encountering stormy weather.

 

Richard McCaw

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