2012 - training

[Matthew Fitzpatrick]

this coming season i am hoping to train up for and complete our 1000k.  for training i'm hoping to do spin class 2x a week, commute daily, and ride a 200k every weekend (+SFR SR series).   i have found that sticking to a training schedule by myself can be a little tedious at times - anyone out there interested in a 200k/Saturday group?  

also - anyone else with bad knees who has done a long ride like this before - what are some of the things that have been most helpful for you?  I've found sports massage, core strength (esp kettle bell swings) and PT help, but i still need a couple of days for my knees to recover from a 200k so i'm nervous about my ability to complete some of our epic rides.

[Greg Merritt]

While everyone's different, I get the sense that most structured
training also involves things like rest days, rest weeks/periods,
pre-season strength training, ramp-ups and ease-offs preparing for big
events, and so on. Also, my sense is that a number of successful
randos have many less-than-200k weekends, and may more typically do
something like Sat/Sun 50mile/30mile or similar.

Again, no universal recipe for success, but the equation may not
necessarily be "a whole lot of miles all the time."

I think you are right to be concerned about your knees. The answer
could lie in any number of areas. You've mentioned a few, but also
add things like bike fit, stretching, shoes, pedals, knee warmers,
hydration, ice and/or heat, etc. etc. I bet that if you could figure
out how to get through a 200k with happy knees, a lot of the rest
might fall into place.

-Greg, who doesn't really know what he's talking about...

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[Rob Hawks]

You don't say exactly what kind of knee problems you have. Over the years, I've had several different kinds, the most recent one that seriously curtailed my riding was ITBS (not strictly a knee problem perhaps, but the side of the knee joint is sure where it hurt most). My bout with that came on during a Fleche event.

I recall doing the Knoxville Double one year and coming up on a rider who was clearly favoring one leg in a way that put me in mind of  the ITBS issues I had in the past. The conversation we had was an illustration of how everyone is different and may react/respond in different ways. In short, all the things he did to work on his version of the problem were things that just didn't work for me, and the things that helped me so much did nothing for him.

Anthony Gilbert is someone that has been recommended by many  in our niche of cycling. (He is a PBP ancien I believe.) You may consider going to him for help.

There are several riders on this list that developed knee issues while doing a long ride. You might want to hear how they dealt with the issue and kept it from coming back.

While this may not help you, what I've found most helpful is daily stretching and periodically using the foam roller on my legs. When doing this, I've never had another ITBS issue.

Years ago, while a runner, I had chondromalacia. I get the occasional tweak that suggests what I had so long ago, and when this happens I reduce my riding ever so slightly, and try not to regret skipping an entire sunny weekend and not riding every so often.

rob

On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 9:46 AM, Matthew Fitzpatrick <fn...@goatheckler.com> wrote:

this coming season i am hoping to train up for and complete our 1000k.  for training i'm hoping to do spin class 2x a week, commute daily, and ride a 200k every weekend (+SFR SR series).   i have found that sticking to a training schedule by myself can be a little tedious at times - anyone out there interested in a 200k/Saturday group?  

also - anyone else with bad knees who has done a long ride like this before - what are some of the things that have been most helpful for you?  I've found sports massage, core strength (esp kettle bell swings) and PT help, but i still need a couple of days for my knees to recover from a 200k so i'm nervous about my ability to complete some of our epic rides.

--

[Massimiliano Poletto]

I suspect that 200k/weekend on a regular basis may be too much. I suggest riding a bit less (40-100 miles) and focusing on effort: going all out up Mount Diablo, or climbing Tam from Mill Valley and then again from Stinson Beach, etc. You'll have more time to do other things, avoid burnout, decrease wear on your joints, and probably get stronger faster.

Spin classes and daily bike commutes sound like a great idea, however.

max

On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 9:46 AM, Matthew Fitzpatrick <fn...@goatheckler.com> wrote:

this coming season i am hoping to train up for and complete our 1000k.  for training i'm hoping to do spin class 2x a week, commute daily, and ride a 200k every weekend (+SFR SR series).   i have found that sticking to a training schedule by myself can be a little tedious at times - anyone out there interested in a 200k/Saturday group?  

also - anyone else with bad knees who has done a long ride like this before - what are some of the things that have been most helpful for you?  I've found sports massage, core strength (esp kettle bell swings) and PT help, but i still need a couple of days for my knees to recover from a 200k so i'm nervous about my ability to complete some of our epic rides.

--

[Rob Hawks]

In the last few years, I've been doing an intermittent 55 mile ride on the weekends with friends as my only riding on that weekend. The route is somewhat hilly, but at 55 miles it is never too long and when I ride it and start very early, I have most of the day left for other things. Doing that shorter, but sometimes more intense ride really helped me. I thought it was the single best thing to help with preparing for longer rides once I had a foundation of mileage to build on. I used this ride with some frequency last summer after completing the 600km and before PBP.

rob

[Kevin Fitzpatrick]

That's interesting, Rob.  It looks like you were doing a 200k per month as well.  Were the 55mile rides and the 200ks the only rides you did after the 600k?  Or were you also doing commuting and/or intervals during the week?  I'm always curious as to how individual riders approach their training.

I tend to build my base early and then ride a 200k a month along with a challenging 55 mile loop as well.  In better weather I commute 20 min each way and have recently tried adding intervals on a trainer once or twice a week.

[Rob Hawks]

Kevin, et al,

I may have misread Matthew's posting, but I thought he was suggesting doing a 200km every weekend, not just one a month.

My mileage per month in 2011 for the 600km to PBP time frame, with the longest rides in that month:

May: 1056 (post 600km longest ride: 59)

June: 671 (126, 58, 56, 33)

July: 1000 (143, 128/126, 70, 58, 56)

Aug: 1277 (135, 55, 47, 44)

So basically, one ride over 100miles per month with one exception (the 128/126 was the double brevet weekend) and all the rest of the rides well under 100 miles (with one exception all under 60 miles).

The longest ride from the SR 600 to PBP: 143

During that time, I took 3 weekends off the bike completely.

I commute to work by bike year round. The round trip distance is 15 miles. On wednesdays, I'd ride to work and also do a 15 mile ride at lunchtime with around 1000' of climbing, generally at a conversational pace.

*NONE* of this was a planned, scientific approach though I did minimize the long rides during the summer. I've always tried to fit riding into the left over gaps. By the end of July, beginning of August, I was feeling a little overwhelmed by the *administrative* side of cycling (6 brevets in 6 weeks to do paperwork for), but not burned out on riding.

rob

[aron mason]

Last year I thought that a gluten free diet helped with some of the aches and pains, based off of that being the only thing that I really changed and my lack of pain during rides. Getting a good fit will also help which has been discussed here in the past. If I am going to push hard for an extended period of time to try and build fitness, I limit it to two weeks and then I will take a break where I ride easier for a week or so to recover before starting another hard cycle. Any more than two weeks of hard riding and I find that I dig myself into a hole in regards to energy and any progress stops and can even go backwards, in addition to becoming more vulnerable to getting sick. Also a big believer that if you have a good recovery routine for immediately after a ride consisting of stretching and food intake, you will maximize your potential. I do some basic hamstring, quad and back stretches and have an Endurox recovery drink after most rides. That is what I do and seems to work for me, but will probably need to be tailored to each individual. Cheers, Aron --- On Wed, 1/18/12, Matthew Fitzpatrick <fn...@goatheckler.com> wrote:

--

[Matthew Fitzpatrick]

with my knees, i have mild patella femoral syndrome (kneecap tracking probs).  I've worked with a sports/chiropractor specialist, a dpt, massage therapists, knee specialists, had multiple fittings at bespoke & wellfeet.  I use a foam roller, stretch, and do exercises a few days a week.   none of the specialists have really found a silver bullet, just small improvements here and there with lots of focus on symmetry and core strength.    i'll check out anthony gilbert and see what he recommends as well - always hoping to find that silver bullet, i'm convinced someone somewhere has it!

quite a few folks have suggested that by riding 200k every weekend i may be overdoing it.  I have done that for 4-5 month stretches over the past couple of years, and i enjoyed it a lot!  It wasn't just training, it was how liked to spend my Saturdays :)   But with my goal now the 1000k, enough collective wisdom is indicating i should cut back on those rides, and focus more on shorter, intense rides.  I will give that a shot for a couple of months to see how it goes.

aron's suggestion of trying a gluten free diet is pretty interesting, i had not heard that suggestion before.  I live across the street from a gluten free grocery so i i'll be trying that out for a bit as well. 

have gotten lots of helpful feedback - thanks for the responses everyone.

[Old5ten]

On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 9:46 AM, Matthew Fitzpatrick <fn...@goatheckler.com> wrote:

this coming season i am hoping to train up for and complete our 1000k.  for training i'm hoping to do spin class 2x a week, commute daily, and ride a 200k every weekend (+SFR SR series).   i have found that sticking to a training schedule by myself can be a little tedious at times - anyone out there interested in a 200k/Saturday group?  

also - anyone else with bad knees who has done a long ride like this before - what are some of the things that have been most helpful for you?  I've found sports massage, core strength (esp kettle bell swings) and PT help, but i still need a couple of days for my knees to recover from a 200k so i'm nervous about my ability to complete some of our epic rides.

i've had knee problems on and off since PBP in 2007, never had knee problems before.  had ankle problems on the 600k in 2007, never had ankle problems before.  distance riding is pretty hard on your body, especially when you hammer.

things that have helped/lessened the problem:

bike fit: saddle height, saddle fore/aft, actual saddle

gearing and choice of gearing in particular situations

cleat position on shoes

insoles and wedges

stretching/hard roller

glucosamine/chondroitin supplement

knee warmers

strength training

i don't think doing a 200k every saturday is too much if you've been doing that already for a while, are having fun doing it, and aren't killing your knees in the process.  you can try to quantify workload with a program like wko, although it would not be very effective without a powermeter.  i used to follow a 3 week on 1 week easy cycle, then a 2 week on 1 week easy cycle, and am now just monitoring ctl and how i feel.  being able to quantify workload really helps.

elmar

[Mick Jordan]

On 1/18/12 1:09 PM, Old5ten wrote:

i've had knee problems on and off since PBP in 2007, never had knee problems before.  had ankle problems on the 600k in 2007, never had ankle problems before.  distance riding is pretty hard on your body, especially when you hammer.

Below I am reposting a message relevant to this topic that I sent last October when recovering from PBP. Note that the article I referenced explicitly mentions patella femoral syndrome. I am increasingly of the opinion that the 1000/1200k brevets may not be advisable for anyone who is less than a perfect physical specimen as they place an enormous strain on the system. If you have a weak link, it likely will be exposed. My post-PBP knee problem seem to be on the mend but I have only been working on the trainer (for other reasons) so have no distance exposure. However, I have a feeling that I probably have picked up (another) weak link that could come back to haunt me at any time.

Mick


-----

And then there is simple issue of wear and tear and overuse. I have had a couple of bike fits at Revolutions In Fitness, the latest being earlier this year for the Waterford bike I took to PBP. I had minor knee issues from soccer/running (meniscus tears) that were fixed successfully by surgery in 2005/2008 and have never had any issues while riding distance rides which I took up seriously in 2007. However, I am currently suffering medial knee pain while on the bike trainer that started up a couple of weeks after returning from PBP. As this article points out:

Several studies in athletes^2-5 have demonstrated that knee injuries, including anterior knee pain and patellofemoral pain syndrome, are the most common overuse injuries evaluated in sports medicine centers. Overuse injuries occur when a tissue accumulates damage caused by repetitive submaximal loading. Repetitive activity fatigues a specific structure, such as tendon or bone. Without adequate recovery, microtrauma stimulates an inflammatory response, causing the release of vasoactive substances, inflammatory cells, and enzymes that damage local tissue. Cumulative microtrauma from further repetitive activity eventually leads to clinical injury.

In chronic cases, continued activity produces degenerative changes that lead to weakness, loss of flexibility, and chronic pain. Thus, in overuse injuries, the problem is often not acute tissue inflammation, but chronic degeneration or tendinosis instead of tendinitis.⁶ Pain in overuse injuries typically has insidious onset, but it may have an acute-on-chronic presentation. Overuse injuries most likely occur when an athlete changes the mode, intensity, or duration of training. Biomechanic (intrinsic) factors and equipment or training (extrinsic) issues are the main contributors to overuse injuries.

Note the "insidious onset" which is essentially what happened to me. Now people clearly vary in their genetic makeup, some being more susceptible to these kind of issues than other. However, I would suggest that riding distances beyond 200K on a regular basis, and in particular 600K and above, puts a great deal of the riding population at risk from overuse injuries. 1200K rides or any Ultra cycling event, like the FC508, were you can easily be on the bike for over 24 hours at a stretch seem particularly risky, given that your are inevitably riding with weakened muscles that cannot support the knee join as well as they should.

I'm hoping I will recover with careful rehab, but at 60 next year, I'm going to have to be a lot more careful about overuse and recovery. Quite possibly ultra-cycling will be off limits to me in the future.

Mick

[Keith Buckingham]

Interesting thread - thanks to all. 

I would be interested to hear from anybody with patella femoral issues whether they have had any success with adjusting their riding style - pedaling light, standing less, consciously increasing the cadence above their natural tempo etc. 

I myself have had 6 or so knee surgeries and am currently free of knee pain (most, not all, of the time). Some of the above has helped, and I employ most of the tactics that Elmar emailed out also. Then again, I'm only riding ~150 miles/week, with some Doubles during the year (Devil Mountain Double, Terrible Two).

regards,

Keith

From: Old5ten <old5...@gmail.com>

Date: January 18, 2012 1:09:13 PM PST

To: fn...@goatheckler.com

Cc: San Francisco Randonneurs <sfra...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: [SFRandon] 2012 - training

Reply-To: old5...@gmail.com

i've had knee problems on and off since PBP in 2007, never had knee problems before.  had ankle problems on the 600k in 2007, never had ankle problems before.  distance riding is pretty hard on your body, especially when you hammer.

[Mark Oldham]

Keith,

Elmar missed one item, which I found helped me a lot: float.  I have had patella femoral issues for over thirty years, though I have only had surgery once, I have been a candidate for additional surgery on both knees for many years.  I did have issues when initially starting riding, but was able to virtually eliminate these by switching to Speedplay pedals with lots of float.  I'm sure that everyone's knee issues are at least a bit different, so no promises, but one more thing to keep in mind.

I did not try increasing cadence to speak of when I was having issues;  since switching to high float pedals, I found that the strengthening of my knees by cycling significantly helped reduce my knee pain in normal daily activities.  Since I stopped riding about a year ago (at my wife's insistence after losing rather badly to an SUV in a head-on while riding), I have found that the slow loss of strength in my legs has started to cause more issues again.

Mark

---

From: Keith Buckingham <keith.buc...@gmail.com>
To: mjord...@comcast.net
Cc: old5...@gmail.com; fn...@goatheckler.com; San Francisco Randonneurs <sfra...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 9:56 PM

[Ely Rodriguez]

Try speedplay pedals, and look at your cleat adjustment. I've used washers to shim my cleats to mimic my crooked ass legs and stance. I also place my cleats at an extreme angle because I'm so bow-legged.
After having extreme knee pain, and switching to the speedplays for several years, I think my legs are stronger now and I have switched back to spd pedals without too much problem.
Also look at your crank arm length. Before, I switched from 172.5 to 165. Now, I'm using 172.5, 170 and 165 on my three bikes and don't really pay attention too much.
Play with your set up, slowly, and one step at a time. Getting a professional fit session might help too. I think Mark is right, the stronger your legs get, the less chance of problems you will have.
Good luck and take care of your knees.
-ely