A tale of 2 DNFs and search for direction

[Metin Uz]

As some of you may know, I had my first DNF at last month's 600, with intense knee pain coming on after the turnaround at Fort Bragg. I dismissed the notion that this was a bike fit issue, as I had used the same (fixed gear) bike on 3 600K,'s, one 1000K and PBP. Then, to my horror, I discovered today that the saddle was too low by a full centimeter - apparently not put together right in my post PBP stupor.

I had not been on that bike much this year, except on SRCC  Point Reyes Lighthouse 300K that had me off the saddle a lot with all the rollers on highway 1. So somehow this went unnoticed; I was so sure it was correct that I didn't bother to measure it (blaming it on the chain, shoes, etc).

Fast forward a month, I had similar knee pain last week at Cascade 1200 on the first day, again at around 300K (different bike). Having suffered through the pain on the earlier ride, and not having had this problem before, I was probably too quick to call it. After FB600, next couple days were painful and something was clearly wrong. After Cascade, my knee felt fine the following day (well a little tired and sore, but no sharp pain). Still, I was disappointed as it seemed to come out of the blue with no obvious cause.

So now I am not quite sure what to do. I have a PT evaluation scheduled, and I have called off my plans to ride Colorado 1200 in a couple weeks. One voice says it's a good idea to reset and start rebuilding from scratch. Another voice says the low saddle explains everything, I just wasn't recovered yet for Cascade but I'll be fine in 2 weeks.

So, I have a bunch of questions:

- Does the low saddle explain everything? How far would it need to be off to cause an issue?

- Does it make sense to attempt a 1200 without a successful 600? My longest rides this year: a 200K+Fleche (600K in 2 days), DMD and a 400K. And obviously not a lot of riding in the past month.

- I am tempted to do back to back hilly rides this weekend as a test. I am not sure if it will reveal anything, or just overload my knees and perhaps give me a false sense of security.

- My rule of thumb is to not attempt a brevet unless I feel I have a better than 90% chance to finish. I probably did not follow this on Cascade.

Anyone has had a similar experience? Any suggestions?

--Metin

[Eric Walstad]

Hi Metin,

I've had knee issues in the past. In my experience, professional bike
fit didn't help, nor did trying different clipless pedal systems. My
PT evaluation resulted in a recommendation of "stop riding your bike
so much". What works for me is to reduce the amount of repetitions in
these Repetitive Strain Injuries. Flat pedals allow me to move my feet
around during a ride, thus reducing the number of repetitions in one
position. If/when I notice a twinge or fatigue I move my foot a little
on the pedal and I feel better; it doesn't take much. I'll do the same
with saddle height during a ride, adjusting the saddle a cm up or down
depending on the terrain I'm riding through and how my knees/legs are
feeling. When I have dull/achy knee pain I take some ibuprofen and
slow down until I'm feeling better. When I have sharp pains, I do the
same but start considering bailing out of the ride. I've found sharp
pain is an indication of physical damage which takes a long time to
heal and isn't worth the risk. I know I still have newb status in the
rando world and I don't fit the mold as far as bike component choices,
but I've learned what will get me through some long rides. Maybe it'll
help you think outside the box a little, question the assumptions you
are making about why you are having knee pain, and trust your
instincts. Good luck figuring out what works for you!

Eric

[Jenny Oh Hatfield]

Hey Metin,

Sorry to hear about your knee woes! I've certainly been there. Pre-rando riding, I definitely had knee pain in the past when my saddle was too high/too low. Even a centimeter made a difference I found, same with cleat position/float. The 1st year of rando riding, I had knee pain which I attribute to a) fit issues b) getting used to the volume of riding c) getting injured and not really resting. After trying a ton of different saddles/seat posts, I finally got a fit that dialed everything in for me. I also took several months off to recover properly. I was fine for almost two years until I had knee pain on Day 1 of 3CR and the end of Day 2 of PBP (which I oddly attribute to being physically off my game for female-related reasons as I recovered immediately after both rides; it's the only weird coincidence I can think of and shouldn't affect you obviously.) I don't have any advice to give other since everyone is so different -- aside from maybe avoid the fixed gear for a while while you figure out your knee woes. Good luck and hope it all sorts out!

Cheers,

Jenny

[Ian Kizu-Blair]

Hey Metin,

I'm sorry to hear about your knee pain. I have never experienced knee pain that forced me to DNF a ride, but I did have somewhat seriously knee aches during last year's 300k and Fleche. What worked for me to cure it was using a foam roller on my IT band, hamstring and quad around 3-4 times per week for about a month after the Fleche, and then intermittently (around once a week) leading up to PBP. What I found was that the tight muscles in my upper leg were somehow exerting pressure on my knee, causing pain around mile 100 in longer rides. Once I loosened them up with the roller, the pain went away. Obviously YMMV since each case is unique.

I also use Crank Brothers Quattro pedals which have some of the most float for any clip-in (20 degrees), and have a large platform to prevent hotspots. This way I can rotate my foot quite a bit while pedaling, like Eric with the platforms but to a lesser extent. Sadly these pedals are discontinued so you can only get them on second-hand markets.

Good luck!

Ian

Ian Kizu-Blair

+52 55 2026 3499

iankiz...@gmail.com

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[Ryan M]

I'll echo what Jenny said. When I bought a new bike about a year ago, I was getting knee pain so bad that I couldn't even pedal after about 20 miles. I eventually went in and got the bike fitted and the pain went away entirely. I can't say that a fitting will fix your problems, but in the single experience I had, it made a 100% difference.

[Dzung Dang]

Hi Metin,

Before rando days I used to ride with 170 mm crank and had knee pain on long rides (mostly double centuries).  A bike mechanic friend suggested I should switch to a 165 mm crank due to my short inseam.  He then raised my saddle a bit explaining that my spinning diameter now is smaller with 165 mm crank.  After a few months of riding (even after DMD) I no longer had knee pain.

Best,

Dzung

[Ann Klein]

Metin,

​I am a knee pain/tight IT band veteran and one thing I have learned is that your mileage may vary :)

Here are some explanations for issues I have had over the years

- tight hip flexors from too much sitting on airplanes/sitting in cars on the way to long rides

- too much time "driving a desk" (I moved to a standing desk)

-​ turning out foot inside of shoe (tightened my shoe after that)

- bad bike fit

- saddle too low

I hope you figure out the source and get back on the bike soon!

Ann

Ann Klein

Founder and Principal

Ann Klein Consulting

annk...@gmail.com

(510) 282-5893

[Greg Merritt]

Metin,

A fit helped me.

I found that flatter rides can be harder on the knees than hilly rides, since flatter rides can have less variety of effort, muscle-group enlistment. Climby rides have those pauses for descents to mix things up...I think my knees like that.

Like Ann says, YMMV! Good luck...

-Greg

[Benjamin Goldenberg]

One quick (potentially dumb) thing to check: 

A couple years, I started getting sharp knee pains, out of the blue, even on short rides. I played with cleat position, and various other things, only to eventually figure out my saddle wasn’t set quite straight! Straightening the saddle by a couple degrees immediately fixed the problem.

Good luck!

Benjamin

[Greg Merritt]

On Wed, Jun 29, 2016 at 10:21 AM, Benjamin Goldenberg <bgold...@gmail.com> wrote:

Straightening the saddle by a couple degrees immediately fixed the problem.

For me, sometimes a "quickie" adjustment on a not-my-regular-bike is to rotate the saddle slightly off-center! :)

-Greg

[Yogy Namara]

While we're making potentially dumb suggestions: check cleats for wear. I think different clear systems are subject to varying degrees of wear with different consequences, but this may or may not be such a case.

For me personally, my knees were happy once I gave up on SPD and went back to platform pedals. Yes, some pedal/cleat systems have different degrees of freedom, which some people think is a good thing, and Max even suggested drilling your own shoes to put the clear further back and what not ( http://maxp.net/bike/cleats/ ), but I'd rather not deal with all that complication and just went for 100% freedom.

We've all heard the advice of moving your hands all over the handlebars, and moving your butts all over the saddle. I don't see why you shouldn't also move your feet all over the pedals, except maybe if you're looking for maximum power, but I'm not racing so I'd rather have maximum comfort, on and off the bike (and be welcomed to walk into pretty much anywhere).

Yogy

[Mark]

Metin:

I'd strongly encourage you to go to an orthopedist with a sports medicine focus rather than a PT, and do whatever diagnostics s/he recommends. I wouldn't scrimp on this given how important cycling is to you. I have had to back off my fixed gear riding due to some recent knee issues, although I suspect I'm quite a bit older than you and for me this is somewhat age related. Beyond that, the key element for me is body alignment. While saddle height and fore-aft placement, Q-factor and cleat position are certainly important, I am always aware of the relationship between my hip, knee and ankle. For my fit and size, I keep my knees quite close to the top tube, and am aware of the rotation of the bones of the lower leg, of the depth of the hip joint where its rotating within the pelvis, of animating the pedal stroke from the hamstring rather than the quad, and of the foot position relative to my thigh. Good luck with your researches.

[Lisa-Susan McPhate]

I have had knee pain that was eliminated by raising the saddle. I think that it could possibly explain everything. However, if you have injured the knee, it might take a little bit too heal, even if you raise the saddle. -lisamc

[Rob Hawks]

Saddle Height: I think this is the key point in Metin's orginal post and any follow up. Metin I believe related that he found that the saddle was set too low a significant amount a long time ago and the bike was put to use on only a handful of rides, each which presented issues ("to my horror, I discovered today that the saddle was too low by a full centimeter - apparently not put together right in my post PBP stupor."). 

Metin strikes me as someone who won't need to get a 'professional' fit as he knows a great deal of what it would take already and if he were to review all settings on the bike and adjust them, that after some rest to allow any injury to heal he could begin to test things.

His list of questions I think involve too many personal variables (for some a single centimeter matters not, for others it is a huge amount (IE, Merckx, Eddy, post 1969), where something that works for one person may be disaster for another. I've lived through enough knee issues over my lifetime to know that they are well worth allowing to heal on their own schedule and deserve any TLC directed at them.

One poster discussed ITB issues as part of knee pain issues. While ITB issues may refer pain to the knee region, I don't think that is what is at issue for Metin. That said, the suggestion to use a foam roller I think is a very good one, and is part of the TLC for knees. While everyone reacts differently, I've found that regular use of the foam roller on my legs generally results in happier knees.

rob

[Metin Uz]

Thanks to everyone who wrote on and off list with suggestions and recommendations. No clear consensus but lots of food for thought.

To answer some of the points that were raised: I use Speedplay pedals, Frog and X-2, which have lots of non-centering float. I have tried flat pedals for Eroica and hated them, so will probably stick with Speedplay. I haven't had fit issues or much knee pain before, so it never occurred to me to play with my seat height in the middle of a ride. I will definitely be paying more attention now.

--Metin

[C. Duque]

Hey Metin,
Whatever you do I think you should let the knee rest from cycling. I would not push the knee luck.

A thing that always has surprised me is why not many randonneurs use pedals with cleat on one side and flat platform on the other. They are great when you have knee issues and still provide the efficiency of cleats when needed; there are plenty of SPD options but not sure if other cleat types are available.

As other say, yes saddle height and saddle horizontal adjustment may be the issue.

Oh yes, one last thing. I know you enjoy running so perhaps putting some miles on the running shoes while hanging up the bike for a little while may not be a bad idea. Different muscles. But don't let the running take over like is happening to me :)

Carlos

[Greg Merritt]

On Thu, Jun 30, 2016 at 11:53 PM, C. Duque <cduq...@gmail.com> wrote:

A thing that always has surprised me is why not many randonneurs use pedals with cleat on one side and flat platform on the other. They are great when you have knee issues and still provide the efficiency of cleats when needed; there are plenty of SPD options but not sure if other cleat types are available.

I use Speedplay Frog MTB pedals for Rando, as they have zero resistance (just rotate without resistance, and then at some point they're disengaged, if you'd like to lift out), which is good for my knees, but I find that the Frogs' connection is not secure enough for 'cross, and they clog very quickly in just a little bit of mud.

Eggbeaters, meanwhile, are much more secure for 'cross, and have some rotational float, but will get to my knees eventually -- especially my right knee.

So, when I do 'cross training/practice, I use an Eggbeater on the left and a Frog on the right! My right knee is happy, and my left foot stays secure for dismounts.

I've received some puzzled inquiries, but it works for me! :)

-Greg

[Metin Uz]

I also like Frog pedals for their free rotation. I remember the cleats releasing on the last hill at La Ruta Loca, scaring me and a couple others I was riding with.

I have since found out that the older cleats (not G3, but the ones with the mushroom head screws on the sides) work a little better, they actually *click* when properly engaged (and then they will not accidentally release). You can also put a bit of inner tube under the soft rubber to increase this effect.

--Metin

[Greg Merritt]

Cool -- thanks, Metin.

My Speedplay Frogs tip: swap the pedal spindles, mounting the left body at the right crank, and the right body at the left crank. Should you crash, you will be able to release from the bike with an inward rotation, which is otherwise totally locked with the pedals installed as delivered. (Ask me how I know.....dragging a bike behind you by your foot is not recommended.....)

-Greg

[Bruce Berg]

You might also consider Bebop pedals. They allow release whether you twist in or out. I wouldn't recommend them their fabulous for mountain or cross riding, but for road riding they're fabulous. For those who care, they're also compact and light.

--

[Roland Bevan]

And to bring things around full circle, I used Frogs for many years, switched briefly to Bebops after becoming dissatisfied with the tendency of Frogs to suddenly disengage when a bit of mud or dirt gets in the wrong place (even after the inner tube trick) - on my bike this usually results in banging shin painfully  into handlebar.
I didn't like the shoe surgery required for Bebops to work on most shoes and also had issues with them getting "sticky", except during the initial 36 hours of rain on the 2012 RM1200k😂
I've been using Crank Bros Candy pedals for a few years now and love them. More than enough for my picky knees, positive in and out, and several other  pedal options including two-sided clipless/flat, all with the same cleats.
So, as with everything else, YMMV. 😉
  -Roland

[H Craig]

Speedplay now has a completely new designed model for free float off road pedal: Syzr.

But they are very expensive: $200+.  Ouch.

I read a couple of reviews from people who didn't like them, and they both said they later sold them on eBay.

Which gave me an idea!  I purchased a used pair on eBay for $100.

They are working out really well for me so far, about one month in.  They combine the robustness of Shimano MTB cleats: easy in, easy out, not jamming with dirt, slow wearing, no worry about lubrication, with the free float of Frogs.  

Why my experience is different from the two reviews I read I don't know for sure but definitely different.  

2016年7月1日金曜日 12時51分11秒 UTC-7 Metin Uz:

[H Craig]

Worn cleats and worn pedals too.  Pedals don't wear out as often, but they do wear out.

 

2016年6月29日水曜日 13時06分22秒 UTC-7 Yogy Namara:

[jack holmgren]

I use the Syzr's too. Rode 1200+ kilometers in a hurry in France last summer and they were fine and dandy.

--

[H Craig]

It seems the price for "new" is dropping - a couple of months ago 200+, now 160.

2016年7月4日月曜日 11時45分02秒 UTC-7 jack holmgren: