Soggy day for a bike ride: SFR Estero Americano 200km brevet report

[Rob Hawks]

It may be days before all the riders that participated in yesterday's 200km ACP brevet will dry out, so let's all think warm and dry thoughts on behalf of the 38 riders that started the last ACP brevet of the year for SFR. The two pre-riding volunteers each fared much, much better on the weather though it was pretty chilly for them.

The day started out damp, and pretty much stayed that way all day. This was the first official running of this route as a brevet, but it had been used once as the basis of a DART team route. No doubt we'll hear either comments on what worked as far as rain gear goes, or we may see the chat lists with a small bump in questions about what rain gear might be better to use. Spoiler Warning: everyone is wet at the end of the ride either from failed rain gear, or from the humid climate inside their gear!

Generally, riders liked the route with some praising it as an improvement over the Uvas Gold route (in particular the last 25 miles of the Uvas Gold route).

At ride's end, all the riders were treated to a massive pile of pastries, cookies, warm beverages and of course a supply of cup-o-noodles. Check out the stories on the SFR Instagram account to see some images of all the great food Greg Merritt baked up.

rob hawks

[Juliayn Coleman]

I *think* I'm dry now, well, dry enough to write a blog post and offer it up to anyone who's curious about what the day was like for me: https://mmmmbike.wordpress.com/

It's pretty long, so save it for when you're in line at the bank or something. :)

Three takeaways:

1. VOLUNTEERS

2. ARE

3. AMAZING

Thank you Volunteers!!!!!!!!!!!

Juliayn

[Rob Hawks]

> 1. VOLUNTEERS

> 2. ARE

> 3. AMAZING

True, that.

Serving as DORC on Saturday was Kevin Williams.

Working the start control: Michael Fretz

Staffing the finish control: Greg Merritt (baker of fabulous post ride treats!), Grant Haidinyak (Ask him about PBP 1991!), and Jeffrey Sigman

Seller of wool socks: Bill Monsen

rob

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[Mike Hrast]

Nice ride report and ride. You definitely displayed the ‘Rando strong’ attitude to complete the ride. Congratulations on the R-12.

Mike H

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On Dec 7, 2022, at 8:18 PM, Rob Hawks <rob....@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Peter Grace]

Juliayn and others:

As another drowned rat on Saturday’s ride and a newbie for riding in such wet and cold conditions, could the more experienced share what worked and did not work? Or even articles that address?

There are references to Merino wool. Worn where and what thickness and any special design features? How did the SFR merino jerseys work for those fortunate to have them? I am currently a fan of a merino trunk base layer with thumb loops to shield the blood vessels on the inside of my wrists. I feel it helped keep my hands warmer and if I got too hot, I could unloop.

Were there things that you did to dissipate heat and swear and balance against getting soaked by the rain?

Strategies for keeping your hands and feet warm?

I wore my long waterproof over-gloves over my jacket. All very well until the rain ran down my arms into them and soaked my wool gloves. My partial solution was to raise my arms and watch the water pour out from my gloves, interesting but a failed strategy.

Now keeping those feet warm. Were anyone’s feet comfortable at the end?

At the end I realized that I would be unlikely to recover enough to ride another long ride the following day. Just changing into dry clothes in the parking lot was slow. What should have taken a couple of minutes took 10+. I was tired and cold. All a bit sobering.

Many thanks in anticipation of your advice 

Peter

On Dec 8, 2022, at 5:36 AM, Mike Hrast <mike....@gmail.com> wrote:

Nice ride report and ride. You definitely displayed the ‘Rando strong’ attitude to complete the ride. Congratulations on the R-12.

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[Charlie Martin]

I'm not the right person to talk about clothing choices, but I'll acknowledge that the right clothing will go a long way. In my experience the following strategies have been just as important as clothing: keep moving and keep eating. Moving generates heat. Eating lets you keep moving. Clothing helps you retain heat. Nutrition is essential, but increased moving can compensate for decreased clothing and vice-versa.

IMO if your clothing gets soaked, it doesn't necessarily indicate a failure of clothing or strategy. With my setup I accept that I'm going to get wet, so instead I aim to be acceptably comfortable while wet. This past Saturday, my focus was on sustainably generating heat and retaining heat. I achieved that primarily by minimizing time off the bike. Rather than stopping at any of the stores along the route to refuel, I had 200 km worth of accessible Rice Krispies Treats to keep me from bonking. There's some amount of finger dexterity that's beneficial for processing such snacks, so I opportunistically stashed the bulky glove for my dominant hand whenever I worked on my nutritional tasks. Sustained uphill sections are especially good opportunities for that. It's a concerted effort to get my wet glove back on so usually I'd save that for a stop light.

Here are some things I'd say about clothing. "Waterproof" clothing does not necessarily mean that it keeps you dry. To the extent that it keeps water out, it often does a similarly good job of keeping water in. In terms of staying warm though, the benefit is that the water inside your waterproof layer is not getting rapidly replaced by the cold water falling from the sky. If you're constantly moving and generating heat, the water touching your body will be relatively warm compared to your environment. You rapidly lose this benefit once you get off the bike. Some sort of wind protection can also be important for retaining heat. If you have a wet layer clinging to your skin, it's going to be unpleasant having cold wind on top of that, such as on a sustained descent.

Hanging out at the finish control, though a highlight of Saturday, was far and away the coldest experience of the day for me.

- Charlie

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[Michael Fretz]

I agree with everything that Charlie wrote.

And it should be acknowledged that the weather took a dramatic turn as soon as the sun went down.  The intensity of the rain increased substantially and the temperature seemed to drop significantly.

I did not hang out at the finish control.  Rather, I tried riding home as fast as possible - both to stay warm and to make it in time for a dinner reservation.  Despite being reasonably comfortable before it got dark, I was freezing cold and shivering when I go home.  All of the red lights in Richmond and Berkeley didn't help.

But, I don't judge my set up harshly just because it didn't work the last 10-miles.

- Mike

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.

[Raphaël]

Hi all,

I have a very similar approach than Charlie. I tried a lot of clothing for rain. And I decided that, in all cases, I will get wet. Then I focus only on not getting cold. And to that extend merino is wonderful because your skin stay kind of dry even if your clothes are completely wet. 

For the feet, I do use only merino socks (on long rides I carry 2 additional pairs).

For leg warmers, I use only merino as well.

I use classical bibs - just accept you will get very wet. 

For the top, I used merino base layer and a wind vest (no jersey anymore except if I want to go fast - better aero). I like the Voler vest because of the 3 pockets in the back AND because of the 2-way zipper. Then I can manage my thermal better especially climbing. I used a light merino base layer for temperature above 10dec C. And long sleeve merino for temperature under 10 deg C. When it’s very cold, I also used a trunk merino layer under the long sleeve merino. 

I have an additional rain jacket (light, long sleeve) with also two way zipper for better ventilation during the climbs. 

For the head, I use a merino balaclava. I use it extremely often, especially for the flat/hilly sections as well as downhill. 

For the hand, I just put merino gloves under my “no fingers” bike glove. I get wet but never cold … except in the very long downhills (more than 30 minutes). But that is an extra motivation to attack the next uphill 😉

This setup works extremely well for me. I had to ride multiple days under the cold rain of Normandie many time. As well as getting completely soaked (and cold) in the alps (france, Swiss) and the Pyrenees. 

Hope it helps. 

Raphaël 

On Dec 8, 2022, at 10:18, Charlie Martin <charlie....@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Mike Hrast]

I’ll second Charlie’s comment about keep moving and limit stops. I wear wool base layers on my upper body and a Rapha classic jersey which is a wool blend that doesn’t sag or feel like I’m carrying 10 pounds of water weight when it gets wet. Over this I wore Rapha’s rain cape which is basically the Gore shake dry jacket and my SFR reflective vest. This set up kept my core warm but with thick gloves on it was hard to unzip my jacket on the climbs which resulted in sweat. 

My legs were fine but my feet did get wet. Fortunately I was wearing thick wool socks that kept my feet from freezing. 

This set up minus the Shake dry jacket served me well during 3 days of very hard rain and cold weather on the Hokkaido 1200. The hardest part on that ride was putting on soaking wet shoes in the morning. Perhaps the fact that our accommodations on that ride had an onsen

Mike H

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On Dec 8, 2022, at 10:18 AM, Charlie Martin <charlie....@gmail.com> wrote:



[jinu...@gmail.com]

Thirding everything Charlie had to say in regards to constantly moving.  

I read something really interesting the other day about waterproof membranes ( PFC bans are set to change the face of all waterproof garments | Cyclingnews)

It turns out that we almost never experience water coming through a waterproof membrane. What we experience is sweat and it happens because waterproof membranes aren't magic. They work because the heat inside a garment will try to equalise with the outside environment and the process will draw the moist air out. If the warm internal air gets to the barrier and finds cold water, the moisture in that air will condense. The condensation builds up and you become wet from the inside out. Shakedry eliminates the possibility of water sitting on the outer surface and that keeps the exchange through the membrane working efficiently. 

In terms of socks, I wore cotton socks and while I had wet feet all day, I ended up not having cold feet due to continuously moving.  The effect I probably experienced was similar to how a wet suit functions - warm water kept me mostly warm until I stopped moving.

This was the first ride I rode with thermal bib tights and while they were not as water resistant as I would have liked, they kept me warm for the entire day, better than thermal bib shorts + leg warmers.  I wore my shakedry over a rapha polartec jacket over a long sleeve merino wool classic jersey (like Mike) and while it kept me warm, the long sleeve jersey ended up smelling terribly after the ride.  I may actually look into investing in the Goretex Rapha insulated jacket to reduce the total number of layers required.  Supposedly that jacket is warm enough where only a base layer is required.

Post-ride I used some cedar shoe trees to dry out my shoes.  Keeps them from smelling too much as well.

JinUk

[Rob Hawks]

Might I also suggest a proper set up of fenders on your winter bike? This can limit the amount of water that ends up on your lower body, especially your feet.

Many of us have gone through the realization that on long rides with rain, you can't avoid being wet, either from the outside or the inside and focusing on staying warm is the central issue.

rob

[Larry Sokolsky]

On PBP in 1987, it rained every day (at least 50% of the whole ride).  40% of the americans dropped out.  The thing which saved me was a really nice gore-tex ski parka (most people wore nylon windbreakers).  My torso always stayed warm and dry though my feet were wet the entire 79 hours, but the warm core saw me through.

Larry

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[Megan Arnold]

+1 big YES!!! for fenders

in fact, if anyone is fender-curious / has a bike without eyelets / is running smaller tires (maybe unlikely in this crowd, but ya never know ... people ride brevets on all sorts of bikes!) I've got a few sets of fenders lurking in my garage from after I learned the magic of fenders but before I went full-bore with all the right mounting points + larger tires... trying to de-clutter, would love to get them to a new home rather than throwing them away.

1. Fenders #1 - Crud Road Racer - clip on, although I honestly cannot remember how. I think I ran these with 25s?
2. Fenders #2 - Planet Bike - clip on. ran these with 25s, maybe 28s
3. Fenders #3 - Planet Bike - bolt on. ran with 32s

pictures here.

also +1 to figuring out the clothing choices that work for you to stay warm. since, as everyone has said - you will get wet. so, to say explicitly what I don't think anyone has yet - embrace that. or at least make peace with it. not a piece of gear I can buy, but my attitude makes a difference in how much "fun" I have on a challenging ride, and that is something I (sometimes) have some control over, unlike the weather

and, as Charlie alluded to - figure out how to get calories in - due to cold/wet you will need more than you usually do for a particular ride, while the clothing and conditions will most likely make it harder to feed yourself. 

chapeau to all those who were out on Saturday!

currently fair-weather rando,

- Megan

[Andy Lieberman]

I wrote up the following clothing report at the request of a Strava friend, so I am pasting it here. The TL;DR is the same as others have said: focus on staying warm not dry, keep moving, and merino wool.

- feet: Sugoi shoe covers which I thought were water-resistant, but 2 minutes into the ride I noticed that my feet were soaked :( Fortunately, my Endura merino wool socks kept my feet and toes warm enough all day.
- legs: Gore windstopper thermal bib tights worked fine to wick moisture away so I didn't feel wet and stayed warm.
- upper body: Heavy base layer I bought years ago at Old Navy, long sleeve wool jersey, and Showers Pass rain shell. Felt warm and dry all day.
- hands: Pearl Izumi Amfib Lobster Gloves. They are the only thing I have found that keep my fingers from going numb in temps in the low 40s and below. Dexterity isn't great with these on for eating and stuff, but can be done. Also hard to get on and off in the wet. Given that temps stayed in the mid-40s, maybe I could've used my Gore windstopper gloves, but I glad I didn't chance it.
- face and head: I have a Nike Pro Combat face mask which I use for any temps below 45. As with my tights, it got soaked, but wicked the moisture away, so I was warm enough.

Andy Lieberman

[Jesse]

Something I like: if I'm going to be cold and wet during the day, I apply a light coat of Bag Balm or Okole Stuff to my hands and feet before the ride. I've noticed a sensation of greater warmth. Whether it's placebo effect or actually does something, I do not know.

Jesse

[gja...@gmail.com]

I rode with full fenders and will be picking up some mud flaps to minimize the road spray on future rainy rides. The coldest part of the ride was the last ten miles when my thumbs stopped working and I couldn't pull my water bottle out of its cage. The coldest part of the day was when I stopped pedaling at the end of the ride to check in and to eat some of Greg Merritt's great treats. 

My clothing selection kept me warm for the most part but I was soaked at the end like everyone else:

• Icebreaker Wool Chase Beanie
• Icebreaker Merino 200 thermal top
• Oregon Cyclewear long sleeve wool jersey
• Ornot Magic Shell jacket
• Seirus Softshell gloves
• Black Bibs Ultimate Bib Tights (thermal)
• Black Bibs Leg Warmers (wore these over my tights for some extra insulation and they kept slipping down, will probably wear them underneath the tights on the next cold ride)
• Pearl Izumi PRO Barrier WxB Shoe Covers
• DeFeet Woolie Boolie 6" socks

Backup clothing:

• Black Bibs neck gaiter (tried it for a bit but it made me too warm, my beard kept my lower face warm enough) 
• one pair of wool gloves from a military supply store (swapped to these at 100 miles because the Soft Shell gloves were thoroughly saturated) 
• one pair of WARMR Freeze-out gloves (put these on at the end of the ride)
• thick wool beenie (for end of ride)
• two pairs of wool socks (didn't use these)
• SOL emergency bivvie (just in case)

Thinking back:

I was plenty warm while riding except for my hands at the end despite my Wahoo Bolt showing a temp range of 31 to 36. I'm going to get some additional warm gloves and maybe some mittens. My feet stayed warm and I didn't realize they were soaked until the end of the ride when I heard a squishing sound when walking. My Berthoud "waterproof" saddle cover did a terrible job of keeping the water off the saddle. My saddle was soaked and is now very much broken in. Next time I'll use a shower cap. I'm probably going to get an Ornot Decadent Winter Cap because it has a brim that could help block the rain from hitting my eyes. Some of the downhills were a bit painful when getting pelted in the eyeballs with rain drops.

Happy riding,

Greg Janess

[Rob Hawks]

>  My Berthoud "waterproof" saddle cover did a terrible job of keeping the water off the saddle. My saddle was soaked and is now very much broken in. Next time I'll use a shower cap.

I've used the Randi Jo Fabrications saddle covers for quite a few years now. One time SFR member Gabe recommended that brand to me. There are specific models for use on specific saddles and it includes some Berthoud saddles.

rob

https://www.randijofab.com/collections/saddle-covers

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[Raphaël]

Hi all,

For my information, what is the value to have a saddle cover?

Thanks, Raphaël 

On Dec 10, 2022, at 12:40, Rob Hawks <rob....@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Rob Hawks]

If your saddle is made from a material that can absorb water, especially if in doing so the saddle can degrade, then a cover during rainy, wet weather is useful. Leather saddles are just such saddles that can benefit from a cover when raining. A leather saddle that gets soaked will likely stretch or otherwise deform and drying it out won't return the saddle to its prior state.

rob

[Greg Janess]

Thank you Rob for the saddle cover recommendation, I'll take a look.

I forgot to mention that I was also wearing a reflective vest all day. With it I had four layers of clothing on my upper body plus the partial coverage by the bibs. I was warm enough that I partially unzipped the vest, jacket and jersey for long stretches.

Greg Janess

[Drew Carlson]

I've been following this thread with interest, not so much from wet conditions (I think I have that part covered rather well), but I'd love to know how people keep their feet warm during conditions similar to what riders dealt with on Estero Americano.  If it gets below 50F, I suffer from cold feet. I wear DeFeet Woolie Boolies socks, and I think they're really comfortable for all but the hottest long rides.  That said, when temps dip into the 30s or lower 40s, I often have trouble with cold feet.  

My experiences have taught me that full leg covers (tights to the ankle, knee high wool socks, and even wool arm warmers over that on my ankles) do a lot.  The only shoe covers I've used that seem to work pretty well are Louis Garneau neoprene which cover all of my feet.  That said, after a few hours on a long ride, my toes and feet still get cold.  I've tried different shoes, larger shoes, and different sock combinations, but I just can't keep my feet happy on a cold 200K.  I've seen the bulky winter bike shoes, but at $200+, I've been reluctant to buy them fearing they don't work, and I've never seen SFR riders using them.  My guess is they may work well in the morning, but may get too hot mid-day.  Does anyone have suggestions?  Chemical warmers in the shoes?  Battery-powered insoles?  I don't ride a lot of cold and wet rides, but when I do, I can keep the rest of my body (hands, head, ears, etc) comfortable, but not my feet.  Suggestions are appreciated.  

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Drew

[Eric Walstad]

Hi Drew and SFR,

I'm the same way - both my hands and feet go cold/numb first thing and may stay that way through the majority of the ride. The only thing that seems to work for me is to do what others have recommended - keep moving enough to generate plenty of heat for the rest of my body to stay warm. It's as if my body shuts down heating to the extremities until my core is has heat to spare. I try to bring many layers of wool and a breathable shell (Showers Pass jacket with its huge zippered vents works best for me) and have a bike with enough room to easily store alltheclothesl in case the sun does come out. Like Megan said, I accept that I am going to be soaked from the rain so I don't fight it. I focus on staying warm and having enough layers to modulate that warmth as needed throughout the ride.

You mentioned neoprene - That's the one thing I've been meaning to try on days I know I'll be in heavy/constant rain. I want to try wearing my surf booties and sandals on a ride I know my feet will be soaked through all day anyway. Have any of you tried that? How'd it go?

Re: covers for leather saddles: yes, a must-have imo. My Randi-jo fab and Rivet saddle covers work great but in a pinch a plastic shopping bag works, too. The one time I was caught out on Marin Mountains without a cover in all-day rain I thought my saddle was ruined it was stretched out so much. Steffen suggested I put it in the oven on the lowest temperature to dry it out. That worked and the saddle shrank mostly back to its original shape and I was able to continue using it.

Eric

[Ray Keane]

Big Mario is using neoprene too….

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cl8vlbEMgVT/?igshid=NDk5N2NlZjQ=

I have found rain gear purchased in Europe seems just to work better than what you can find here. I’m still using my 35 year old track jacket from Europe. A light rain breaker over that seems to work and allows enough vapor to escape. Racing capes are too tight, and don’t allow any ventilation, the Raphael computer jacket is more loos fitting and works well for me. 

I think I’m going to look at Cressi booties as overshoes.  I use look pedals and the cleat opening is just too large. Speedplays may be better. 

Ray 

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[richar...@gmail.com]

Drew – I ride in temps down to 10F when I go to Alaska. What I wear determines how long I can ride before my toes freeze.  I bought Sidi Frost Gore-Tex 2 MTB Shoes and 45Nrth Wolvhammer Cycling Boots when they were hugely marked down in the summer. I have used the Sidi Zero Gore-Tex Winter Road Shoes on a cool/ wet SFR 200km a few years ago. They helped my feet to stay warm. Look cleats are too slippery in snow/ icy conditions so I bought the winter Sidi MTB shoes this summer – They worked great for me in October in Alaska for temps 20F – 40F. I am glad I made the investment in the shoes. They will last at least another generation of usage. When below freezing I also wear the PI Primaloft insulated shoe covers. I prefer riding cold and dry weather versus slushy above freezing condtions. The Sidi winter shoes will get too warm for me in upper 50F. I will normally just wear them if temperatures stay below 50F. The shoes are going to be heavier when soaked through with extended cold rain.

 

The 45Nrth Wolvhammer Cycling Boots are for the colder temperatures. They are for 0F to 25F usage. I will wear them next year in January to have warm feet during my fat bike rides if temps are below 25F when I ride across frozen lakes. I want to have warm feet!

 

There are now more footwear options available to address riding in cooler weather. Can also be helpful in cool & wet weather with proper socks and insoles. Plus sometimes extra show cover. But I would never pay full price for them.

 

Richard McCaw

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[Mihir Sambhus]

Toe warmers helped me immensely in this ride. I had carried spares with me too. But didn’t need to use the spares as one lasted the whole day and was enough for the 200. 

On Sat, Dec 10, 2022 at 4:19 PM Drew Carlson <w.drew....@gmail.com> wrote:

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Thanks
-Mihir

[uee...@gmail.com]

Drew - My feet get cold easily but I found that in temps down to 40F I could keep my toes from feeling frozen by wearing a light pair of merino wool socks, toe warmers on top of the toes, then a heavier wool sock over that (DeFeet Woolie Boolies in my case).  My shoes are large enough that this all fits.  If they're tight with all this on then me feet get cold anyway.  I then wear Pearl Izumi Pro Barrier rain covers over the shoes.  Vents on the bottom of the shoe are double covered with duct tape.

I'm spending the winter in southeast Washington state where it's a bit colder.  The above setup left me with painfully cold toes after just a 45 minute ride in 22F temps.  That motivated me to research winter riding shoes.  I ended up with Fizik R5 Artica shoes.  With just the light and heavier merino wool socks and no toe warmers or shoe covers my toes stayed comfortable on a 2.5 hour ride in the low 20's.   These shoes have waterproof outer layer with waterproof zipper so they should keep my feet dry in cold rain as well.  Definitely worth the $150 for me given the amount of sub freezing weather I'll have to put up with this winter.

-Mark

[kws...@gmail.com]

Hello everyone! I have also been enjoying this thread and wanted to drop in my two cents.

I wanted to ride with you all last weekend but couldn't make it work with my schedule. At least I got to participate in some way from afar :) Always happy to help!

I didn't see why you all got to have all the fun, so I did my own rainy 200k yesterday. My strategy was in line with many of the topics discussed here: layer up and keep moving. Despite the 7.5 hours of rain and winds around 22mph (gusts up to 40mph), I felt relatively comfortable with my mid-weight merino base-layer and jersey, Pearl Izumi bib shorts and leg warmers, woolie boolie socks, shoe covers, 45nrth balaclava, Showers Pass rain jacket and gloves, Rain Legs, and RUSA reflective vest. I tired to keep my stopped time to a minimum, which ended up be a total of 44 minutes. I stopped for maybe 10 minutes to grab a coffee and I was super cold when I started up again. It took me a bit to get back to a somewhat comfortable temperature.

I was maybe a bit too warm in the morning before the rain really kicked in, so I unzipped pretty much everything and zipped back up as needed. I was a bit concerned I would be too warm later in the day, but everything worked out fine.

I brought enough snacks to last me through the ride; that coffee was the only time I stopped to go inside somewhere. I thought that the more I would have stopped, the more miserable I would get, so I just kept on moving.

So it seems like we are in agreement: wear layers, keep eating, and keep moving!

-Kevin W.

On Sunday, December 11, 2022 at 8:23:15 AM UTC-8 mihir....@gmail.com wrote: