Surly Cross Check and randonneur riding

[jayvan...@gmail.com]

Hello all, 

I am relatively new to this group and endurance riding in general. I am eager to explore the sport of self-supported endurance riding, as it is essentially the same principle as thru-hiking (I hiked 2,500 miles on the PCT in 2016), so I want to get started with randonneuring as it seems like a wonderful community of individuals, and it fits in much easier with a regular work schedule than backpacking :)

 

I have ridden 2 centuries this year (my first year of riding regularly) and my main bike is a Surly Crosscheck, which I use to commute to work and for fun riding on the weekends. I am looking to ride my first 200k soon, be it a group ride or a permanent. I have done a lot of reading in Bicycle Quarterly about having the ride amount of "trail" in the front geometry to make it comfortable to ride with a handlebar bag loaded with supplies. In looking at the geometry of my Cross Check, it is a mid trail bike, with 44mm of trail, compared to the 60-ish mm of a dedicated randonneuring bike. If I were to get a decaleur and nice, large handlebar bag, would this make the handling uncomfortable with the bag loaded?

Thanks in advance for any help with this,

Jay van Biljouw

[Eric Larsen]

Throw all your BQ’s away and come ride Old Caz on Saturday! You’ll need appropriate reflective gear (vest or sash & ankle bands), headlight (should give good light to ride by for at least 4-6 hrs, does not need to be dynamo) and a tail light (must be red and in solid not blinking mode at night). You’ll also want to be able to carry some extra layers for cold, Coastal night riding (leggings, extra LS jersey and wind breakers, maybe long finger gloves). A couple tubes, patch kit, basic bike tool, pump and you should be good! There’s enough services on the route that you don’t need to carry much food, but a few Gu packets for emergency bonk fuel are good (always load up on calories each opportunity).

Old Caz is a hard but fun and beautiful 300K and your Crosscheck with >28 mm tires (not knobby) is perfect. Figure on finishing around midnight!

Ride what’s comfortable for you. The more you ride the more you’ll know.

E

P.s. (I think) heavy front load in a mid-trail bike will be unbalanced and a little sketchy on steep, technical downhills or riding no hands or low speed, but otherwise not very noticeable. Please do feel encouraged to ask questions here and ignore my snarky “throw BQ away” ;)

--
--
This message is from the San Francisco Randonneurs list at sfra...@googlegroups.com
Search the archives at http://groups.google.com/group/sfrandon
For SFR's schedule and general information, visit http://sfrandonneurs.org/
To unsubscribe, email sfrandon+u...@googlegroups.com
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "San Francisco Randonneurs" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sfrandon+u...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sfra...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Reed Kennedy]

Hey Jay, welcome to the gang! I look forward to meeting you on a ride.

First up, a 200k really isn't much different than a century. Anything you're comfortable on will do just fine. I wouldn't worry too much. I'm a BQ disciple myself, but many, many randos get by just fine with a small front bag on a high trail frame or (gasp!) no front bag at all. They just stop to eat, like animals. (Or hold things in pockets like... kangaroos?)

All that said, your Cross Check is a high trail frame. The 44mm you're referencing from the geometry chart is the fork offset, also known as the fork rake. That's related to the fork trail, but not the same thing. Here's a picture, stolen from JimG's site:

So what's the trail? Surly doesn't say, but we can calculate it thanks (again) to JimG:

http://yojimg.net/bike/web_tools/trailcalc.php

Plug in the 72° head angle and 44mm fork offset per that geometry chart and we get:

67mm of trail. That's a bunch! I'd call it high trail. For comparison, Jan's low trail bikes have 30-35mm of trail. (As do mine, which were modeled after Jan's.) 

Your Cross Check can carry a handlebar bag with weight in it, but the steering will slow down a bunch. Might feel fairly ponderous.

But again, don't worry too much. Just keep the heavy stuff you need less often (tools, pump, tubes, jacket) in a seat bag. Your muchies and things you want easy access to on the road can go in a small bar bar (or your jersey pockets). 

If you fall in love with randonneuring you'll have plenty of time and motivation to spend bunches of money on a fancy bike, fancy bits, and fancy bags. But I bet you'll be fine with what you've got for now.

(And I'll also wager you'll get frustrated with the high bottom bracket and over-stiff tubing of the Cross Check well before the high trail starts to bug you.)

Best,

Reed

On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 2:23 PM <jayvan...@gmail.com> wrote:

--

[Robert Cauthorn]

Jay,

Welcome to our little slice of madness (I've thru hiked the PCT too, a long, long, long while ago -- that's its own slice of madness!)

Both Eric and Reed offered great advice. Eric is basically saying, just ride what you have, bring just enough gear to be self sufficient and you'll figure out what works for you. I think for all of us, Eric is one of the keepers of the true flame. Over the years I've learned to pay close attention to his advice.

Reed's advice about using a seat bag and a small bar bag for food is also solid. And he's also right that you'll end up accumulating bikey things. It happens.

No matter what, don't let sweating your bike prevent you from coming out. We all ride all kinds of bikes and all are great. The essential equation is all-bikes=good-bikes, ride what you've got now and love it.

Old Caz is a reasonably challenging ride but if you feel like giving it a shot, it's a beautiful route. If the weather forecast is hot during mid-day (doubtful this year, last year was brutal) pay attention to your water situation because there is a longish stretch where water can be a trick on a hot day and you'll want full bottles. The blackberries are ripe, so make sure to eat some as you find them. Pick them high on the bush. Even if the forecast is for a warm day, as Eric says, it WILL be cold in the last 60 or 70 miles. 

If Old Caz isn't your cup of tea, later in the season we've got two terrific brevets for people new to this: Del Puerto Canyon 200K and the Uvas Gold 200K. Del Puerto is a personal favorite of mine -- there's a stretch as you enter the canyon where the landscape is like what you imagine when you listen to Aaron Copeland's "Appalachian Spring"... Pure magic and majesty.  

Also in the fall, the Davis Bike Club has a super fun 300K through the delta designed by Deb Banks. Super, duper fun. I highly recommend this one.

Looking forward to meeting you! If you ride Old Caz I'll be working the late shift of the PRS control ( If the schedule is current, Eric will also be out for the late shift at PRS and the finish control) and I hope to see you. And if you wait for another ride later, I hope to see you then.

Welcome!

Bob

[J.T. Conklin]

Jay,

The first few years of randonneuring, I rode a Surly LHT with a large Ortlieb handlebar bag. By Reed's calculator, it's a similar trail to your CC. Worked out just fine for me.

My recommendation is ride what you have. Observe what works for others. Experiment. Succeed. Fail. Only then will you figure out what you want. I'm very glad I waited before buying my current bike. It's just right for my needs (and is probably completely wrong for others).

--jtc

[Jim G]

I think you're confusing fork offset with trail. The Crosscheck is a high-trail bike (~70mm), with 44mm fork offset and 72 degree head angle. See http://yojimg.net/bike/web_tools/cx_trail.php and http://yojimg.net/bike/web_tools/trailcalc.php

I run a small front bag and rack on a similar bike and it's fine. 

Thanks!

-Jim G

On Sep 5, 2018, at 2:14 PM, jayvan...@gmail.com wrote:

--

[jayvan...@gmail.com]

Thank you for all the introductions and friendly advice! You all have imbued enough confidence in me to just go out for a couple 200k's that are on the calendar, and then see what works and doesn't work along the way. I am eye-ing the Winters 200k, Del Puerto Canyon 200k, and Uvas 200k. I live in San Jose so the last 2 are more accessible for me. From here, I will have to register for RUSA and then with SFR, correct? 

The last questions I have are regarding nutrition for these rides. How many calories do you all portion out for say a 200k. I know everyone is different but if I had a baseline I could start with, that would be great. I know hydration and gels/blocks are important as well to prevent bonking. I'm sure there is a FAQ that would address all of this. Thanks to everyone again for the warm welcome and I look forward to meeting you all out on these rides!

Jay

[Drew Carlson]

Hi Jay,

FWIW, you can just have real food as snacks on the bike, not just gels and electrolyte drinks.  For some, it's a coke and bag of Fritos.  I often bring half a peanut butter sandwich on toasted raisin bread from home.  Rando ain't racin', at least, not for most of us, so you get to stop riding and go into a store or restaurant and buy food/drink along the way, and it's a social opportunity, too!  Some of us have been known to stop towards the last third of the ride, and have a beer.  Kinda fun!  

--

--
This message is from the San Francisco Randonneurs list at sfra...@googlegroups.com
Search the archives at http://groups.google.com/group/sfrandon
For SFR's schedule and general information, visit http://sfrandonneurs.org/
To unsubscribe, email sfrandon+u...@googlegroups.com
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "San Francisco Randonneurs" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sfrandon+u...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sfra...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

Drew

[Reed Kennedy]

On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 9:40 AM <jayvan...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thank you for all the introductions and friendly advice! You all have imbued enough confidence in me to just go out for a couple 200k's that are on the calendar, and then see what works and doesn't work along the way. I am eye-ing the Winters 200k, Del Puerto Canyon 200k, and Uvas 200k. I live in San Jose so the last 2 are more accessible for me. From here, I will have to register for RUSA and then with SFR, correct? 

You don't even need to join RUSA and SFR yet. All you really gotta do is register for your rides and pay the (small) sign up fees here:

http://sfrandonneurs.org/registration.htm

Of course, there are extra benefits of registering with RUSA and listing SFR as your home club (which automatically registers you with SFR). The main is that RUSA will track your riding so it can count toward awards and qualifying for big rides like PBP. It helps pay for our insurance. Oh, and you get a neat magazine.

 

The last questions I have are regarding nutrition for these rides. How many calories do you all portion out for say a 200k. I know everyone is different but if I had a baseline I could start with, that would be great. I know hydration and gels/blocks are important as well to prevent bonking. I'm sure there is a FAQ that would address all of this. Thanks to everyone again for the warm welcome and I look forward to meeting you all out on these rides!

The research that I've done indicates that most aesthetes can absorb up to (but not more than) 300 calories per hour while exercising, so I try to stick around there. I love food, so I eat whatever seems good that day. I would have to be near death to eat a goo packet, personally. One thing I always find enticing are the Honey Stinger sports waffles. I also like SaltStick electrolyte capsules, which allow me to replenish my salts when I don't feel like drinking sugar water (most of the time).

But given the choice, I'll almost always take a cup of coffee and a fresh pastry if I can manage it. (Generally at a receipt control.) 

On my first couple 200ks I carried along almost 4,000 calories of gross sports food. Ha! Not anymore...

Best,

Reed

[Rob Hawks]

Another way to look at it is, depending on the nature of the controls on the route, the food you carry only needs to be what it will take you to get to the next control where you would eat (real food?). Some people don't like to get by on fast food, or even heavily processed and packaged food from convenience stores but others find, at least for that day, fueling up at a control stop (or any place you pass really) will work. Pays to review the route before you ride to see what is available along the route.

rob

[Rob Hawks]

Given the relatively low annual RUSA membership ($25), and the fact that our rides are directly supported by RUSA financially (RUSA covers the liability insurance for SFR, saving the club thousands of dollars a year and keeping our reg fees really low as well), joining RUSA now is a pretty good idea.

SFR membership is currently free and only requires that you satisfy one of the following:

Participate on a ride with us

or

Volunteer for us

or

Join RUSA and name SFR as your home brevet club

rob

--

[Greg Merritt]

Cool!! Welcome, Jay!

If you are ok with centuries, then 200k is a great next step! Throw any bag on your bike, and try out a 200k that tickles your fancy -- probably not one with excessive climbing or lots of mixed terrain, for your first try -- and see how it goes. (The club's three 200km events in November and December are pretty accessible routes, in my opinion.)

Personally, I would have been crushed (mentally, at least!) trying to go from a century to a 300k -- let alone Old Caz. ;)

-Greg, who has done 95% of his ~decade of Rando on Jan-reviewed-them-and-doesn't-really-like-them models of bikes!!

[steve.st...@gmail.com]

Welcome Jay!

I did my first year of randonneuring last year on a Cross Check, and after a while started using a Swift Paloma bag on the handlebars. Plenty of space for snacks and layers (plus pen slots… always bring an extra pen). It didn't affect handling too much, and I rode that setup on some pretty gnarly terrain. Your mileage may vary, but there is a lot of great advice in this thread and it will all serve you well. See you on the road!

-Steven

On Wednesday, September 5, 2018 at 2:23:59 PM UTC-7, jayvan...@gmail.com wrote:

[Greg Merritt]

(plus pen slots… always bring an extra pen).

While I would not particularly argue against bringing an extra pen, if one were to pack every extra contingency item, spare, or tool suggested by fellow Randos, one would need a trailer to bring it all along.

Try things out, for sure, and see what works!

-Greg, who rides without duct tape or zip ties -- but you won't catch me without my cassette puller! Ha!

[Jim Gourgoutis]

I thought the sly tip was to get other people to carry all the tools, spares, and food for you…?!

 

-Jim G

--

[Massimiliano Poletto]

On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 11:47 PM Eric Larsen <ciren...@gmail.com> wrote:

Throw all your BQ’s away and come ride Old Caz on Saturday!

+1.

Don't worry too much about low trail, supple tires, and "traditional" rando bikes. A Crosscheck is a fine bike. Plus, if you resist the urge to have a large handlebar bag, you'll be forced to carry less. The hills will seem smaller, and you will go faster.

Cheers.

max

[Rob Hawks]

BQ is certainly not a roadmap to follow. There is more than one way to get there. Still, they can be fun to read.

At the 200km distance, you aren't really dialing in a bike that will necessarily work for you on a 600km. I often ride a different bike on a 200km than I ride on a 600 or certainly a 1000km.

Max's point about bag size? Spot on. Don't carry too much crap.

rob

[Greg Merritt]

Max's point about bag size? Spot on. Don't carry too much crap.

Of course, the crap quantity "sweet spot" -- how much is too much? -- is individual.

For example, if I could start a 200k on a cold, foggy, drippy 50F morning at Crissy field, practically stark-naked with bare arms & legs & two thin layers of lycra up top (like some can!) without dying dead from hypothermia before reaching the bridge, I wouldn't need the capacity to stow my puffy vest, warmers, etc. all afternoon in the toasty Marin sunshine...sigh!

-Greg

[Rob Hawks]

It is a simple formula: put only what is absolutely essential into your bag. Then take two things out and leave them home.

rob

[Jim Gourgoutis]

You can also install one of these on your Cross Check if you want a taste of that low trail flavour:

http://www.somafab.com/archives/product/champs-elysees-low-trail-touring-fork

-Jim G

[Greg Merritt]

You can also install one of these on your Cross Check if you want a taste of that low trail flavour:

...or, instead, if it has disc brakes, just install wheels that are too small -- with skinny tires on them -- and watch that trail plummet!! 😂

Seriously, though, there is this notion from (car) street races....basically, who cares about your gear? Just show up & go!! :)

-Greg

[Rando Calrissian]

Am I the only one whose mind interprets 'BQ' as the offspring of the Burger King and the Dairy Queen?

Or maybe it is simply my Midwest upbringing?

ryan "BK + DQ = BQ" t