Daily Endorsement Update

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Sonja Trauss

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Aug 21, 2015, 11:09:23 AM8/21/15
to sfbarentersfed
So far ...

Prop I: Mission Moratorium is getting killed, goes without saying.

Prop A: Housing Bond. 2nd most unanimous results, winning handily.

Prop K: Surplus Public lands also doing very well

Mission Rock (D), Public Meetings (E) and Paid Parental Leave (B) are all winning, but fewer people are weighing in on those at all.

Defining Clean, Green & Renewable Energy (H) is doing surprisingly well considering I have no idea what it is.

Short Term Rentals (F) and Disclosures on Renewable Energy (G) have the exact same response profile, so, I'll just let that sink in.

Prop C: Expenditure Lobbyists is EVEN, with almost no one voting on it. VOTE NO, see other email, unless you think sfbarf shouldn't take a position at all. It's possible that is the right thing to do, but I'm voting NO.

Interesting surprise here - Prop J: Legacy Business is getting killed. You are a more vengeful bunch than I had guessed. :D



Vote Here: http://goo.gl/forms/m0Q7htjSdd

You can edit your responses! So vote early, vote often! Voting will close Tuesday September 8th.

Notice - I will cross reference the votes here with the people who signed into the database of voters, or donated. If you want your vote to count, you have to either put yourself in the database of voters, or have donated to the Tilt, or send me $35 now on paypal (just sign the database, it's free).

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Vote on Renters' PAC endorsements: http://goo.gl/forms/m0Q7htjSdd Voting closes Sept 8 2015.

Sonja Trauss

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Aug 23, 2015, 1:37:54 PM8/23/15
to sfbarentersfed
Hi Everyone!  Vote Here: http://goo.gl/forms/m0Q7htjSdd Voting still Open till Sept 8th.

The current scores are listed below, ordered from most loved to most h8ed and color coded (green means yes so far, red means No so far). Prop F has barely pulled ahead of Prop G, a ballot measure withdrawn by its sponsors, still getting creamed. Prop J: Legacy Business also still losing.

I love that there is disagreement on all the measures, but 100% agreement on the Moratorium, and also 100% response rate on the moratorium. All the other measures have at least 20% of respondents giving no answer. That reflects one of the many things I like about this group - we disagree on other things, but all agree more building is better.


Prop B: Paid Parental Leave
4.33

Prop K: Surplus Public Lands
4.25

Prop H: Defining Clean energy
4.1

Prop D: Mission Rock
3.92

Prop A: Affordable housing
3.84

Prop E: Public Meetings
3.27

Prop C: Expenditure Lobbying
1.85

Prop J: Legacy Business
1.41

Prop F: Short-Term Rentals
1.1

Prop G: Disclosures about Energy
0.75

Prop I: Mission Moratorium
0.00 - 100% response rate


Vote Here: http://goo.gl/forms/m0Q7htjSdd

You can edit your responses! So vote early, vote often! Voting will close Tuesday September 8th.

Notice - I will cross reference the votes here with the people who signed into the database of voters, or donated. If you want your vote to count, you have to either put yourself in the database of voters, or have donated to the Tilt, or send me $35 now on paypal (just sign the database, it's free).


Armand Domalewski

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Aug 23, 2015, 3:10:26 PM8/23/15
to Sonja Trauss, sfbarentersfed
Big tent! :)

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Kate Vershov Downing

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Aug 23, 2015, 4:05:59 PM8/23/15
to Armand Domalewski, Sonja Trauss, sfbarentersfed
I wonder if the legacy business "no" endorsement would hurt the group. I know why people are voting no, I would also not want that. But it's one thing to not like it and another to actively endorse against it. I'm not sure it matters to "renters" one way or another, so it doesn't really solidify the group's platform, but it may make the group look callous in the face of gentrification and displacement. I just worry that some of the "off topic" endorsements would dilute the group's message and give people another stone to throw - "they're just a bunch of neoconservatives- look they didn't even want to help out legacy businesses that we all cherish and love."

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/SFBArentersfed/51B617A5-F6F2-466E-B985-EACD9E3890FB%40gmail.com.

Sonja Trauss

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Aug 23, 2015, 4:10:25 PM8/23/15
to Kate Vershov Downing, Armand Domalewski, sfbarentersfed
I like J - legacy business. It's exactly the kind of thing that makes people who are scared of development feel better, without actually interfering with creation of new housing. 

From talking to people who voted "No" on it, they totally voted no out of spite for David Campos and Mission Inc. 

I do hope it gets to at least an average score of 2 by sept 8 so we can do "no endorsement" at least. 

If you already voted you can change your vote, if you haven't voted do it now - http://goo.gl/forms/m0Q7htjSdd
Vote early, vote often!!

Robert R. Tillman

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Aug 23, 2015, 4:40:32 PM8/23/15
to Sonja Trauss, Kate Vershov Downing, Armand Domalewski, sfbarentersfed
I think that SFBARF should endorse on ballot measures that clearly and directly affect the supply of housing and remain silent on everything else. Why risk angering potential allies by taking a position on issues that do not relate to the core mission and about which the membership either does not care or about which the membership is conflicted?

Robert R. Tillman
RRT Partners LLC
14 Sunshine Ave.
Sausalito, CA 94965
415-332-9242 Telephone



Mike Schiraldi

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Aug 23, 2015, 4:40:35 PM8/23/15
to Kate Vershov Downing, Armand Domalewski, Sonja Trauss, sfbarentersfed
On Sun, Aug 23, 2015 at 1:05 PM, Kate Vershov Downing <kate.v...@gmail.com> wrote:
"they're just a bunch of neoconservatives- look they didn't even want to help out legacy businesses that we all cherish and love."

If we were a bunch of neocons, we wouldn't be voting overwhelmingly in favor of paid parental leave for city workers. That's not conservative; it's not even libertarian. It's pure European-style socialism, and I mean that in a good way.

As for Prop J, I'm voting against it because I think it would have the same effect on commercial rent as Prop 13 has on housing: It subsidizes the establishment, removing supply from the market, and driving up the cost of renting a storefront for new small businesses. We're not going to see any new mom-and-pop shops if none of them can afford to pay the rent.

Now, if there were a proposition that would make life easier for mom-and-pops across the board, regardless of their seniority, *that* I would support. For example, something that strengthened our existing restrictions against big chain stores. I don't mind discriminating on the basis of quaintness or small-business-ness or wherewithal, but I won't stand for discriminating against the young and new. 

Mike Ege

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Aug 23, 2015, 4:45:27 PM8/23/15
to Robert R. Tillman, Sonja Trauss, Kate Vershov Downing, Armand Domalewski, sfbarentersfed
I tend to agree with Robert. 


Sonja Trauss

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Aug 23, 2015, 4:47:40 PM8/23/15
to Mike Ege, Robert R. Tillman, Kate Vershov Downing, Armand Domalewski, sfbarentersfed
Then you and Robert better get the scores on non housing issues to average out to between 2 & 3 range. That's the no-endorsement range. 

Start recruiting and lobbying your friends now to achieve your goals :)

Kate Vershov Downing

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Aug 23, 2015, 4:49:50 PM8/23/15
to Sonja Trauss, Armand Domalewski, sfbarentersfed
Sort of. That's still taxpayer dollars that are propping up businesses that might be legacy businesses just facing high rents (and well loved), or it could be propping up business models that are just out-dated and fail to adopt to the times and shifting demographics. I can understand not wanting tax money to go to for-profit businesses and instead putting that money, meager as it might be, towards housing. 

I live on Cal Ave and we had a big street rejuvenation project here - widened sidewalks, planted trees, etc. And a lot of people were against it because they felt that if the area were more attractive, rents would go up, and legacy businesses would go out of business. Now, I'm certainly sympathetic to those business owners, but on the other hand, that rejuvenation has meant that we're now actually starting to see some night life after decades of just one place open late. We're seeing better food and more people coming to this street. Hopefully the huge FedEx will move out and we'll get a good community-like space there instead. 

There's definitely an argument to be had that if some businesses just can't attract enough customers, then we're better off if they close and we get those who can. Might suck for the business owner, but is really good for the rest of us. However, there's also a point at which rents are just so enormously high that that's not really true anymore. NYC is facing this in that all they can attract now is big chain stores who can cross-subsidize locations. But, much of SF, if I'm not mistaken, doesn't allow chains anyway, and my own personal experience is that there's still room for improvement in retail offerings before we hit the point that NYC has hit. 

I often think about La Victoria Bakery. they're very conscious of changing populations and they're changed their menu over the years to work with the customers they have, not the customers they used to have. I think that's a good thing. Propping up a business that insists on selling to customers of old rather than the customers of today seems to be of questionable value since you're asking people who are voting with their money and not patronizing a place to put their tax dollars towards it anyway. 

Sonja Trauss

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Aug 23, 2015, 4:58:27 PM8/23/15
to Kate Vershov Downing, Armand Domalewski, sfbarentersfed
"She looked at me in the eye and she said, ‘Oh, so you’re making stuff for dead people?’ I’m like, ‘I kind of am.’ ” ahh ha. 

I like the quiz!! 

Real talk - the municipal opera, ballet and symphony enjoy their own bajillion $$ legacy business programs. And I'm glad of it. 

Robert R. Tillman

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Aug 23, 2015, 4:59:22 PM8/23/15
to Sonja Trauss, Mike Ege, Kate Vershov Downing, Armand Domalewski, sfbarentersfed
I think that there is a basic incorrect assumption in this discussion. I certainly have personal opinions on all the issues, as I expect do most people on this list. That does not mean that I want SFBARF to endorse even opinions with which I agree on non-housing supply issues. That is a very slippery slope. For example, should SFBARF also voice opinions on abortion, drug legalization and gun control, just to pick a few particularly politically charged issues? Why should SFBARF’s endorsements be related only to SF ballot measures? Once you go down the slippery slope, it is impossible to go back.

My very strong advice is to stick to your core mission.

Robert R. Tillman
RRT Partners LLC
14 Sunshine Ave.
Sausalito, CA 94965
415-332-9242 Telephone


Robert R. Tillman

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Aug 23, 2015, 5:01:06 PM8/23/15
to Sonja Trauss, Mike Ege, Kate Vershov Downing, Armand Domalewski, sfbarentersfed
You can also negate any criticism for not taking stands on non-housing issues by stating clearly and in advance that SFBARF only makes endorsements on issues that relate directly to increasing the supply of housing.

Robert R. Tillman
RRT Partners LLC
14 Sunshine Ave.
Sausalito, CA 94965
415-332-9242 Telephone


Kate Vershov Downing

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Aug 23, 2015, 5:02:00 PM8/23/15
to Robert R. Tillman, Sonja Trauss, Mike Ege, Armand Domalewski, sfbarentersfed
I agree with Robert. 

Robert R. Tillman

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Aug 23, 2015, 5:06:50 PM8/23/15
to Sonja Trauss, Kate Vershov Downing, Armand Domalewski, sfbarentersfed
I have run the coin-operated laundry at 25th and Mission since 1998. As an owner of a “legacy business”, I neither need nor wish for any “help” from SF. Frankly, I just want them to leave me alone. Changing demographics have caused my revenues to fall by 20% over the past 10 years. That is my problem as a business person, and I am working to adapt to it. That is what we business people do.

Robert R. Tillman
RRT Partners LLC
14 Sunshine Ave.
Sausalito, CA 94965
415-332-9242 Telephone


From: SFBARF Google Group <SFBAren...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Sonja Trauss <sonja....@gmail.com>
Date: Sunday, August 23, 2015 at 1:58 PM
To: Kate Vershov Downing <kate.v...@gmail.com>
Cc: Armand Domalewski <armanddo...@gmail.com>, SFBARF Google Group <SFBAren...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [sfbarentersfed] Re: Daily Endorsement Update

Armand Domalewski

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Aug 23, 2015, 5:25:08 PM8/23/15
to Robert R. Tillman, Sonja Trauss, Mike Ege, Kate Vershov Downing, sfbarentersfed
I agree with Robert. Going forward we should only vote on housing related props. If the group vehemently disagreed with Sonja's call on what's housing related we can have a write in option.

Sent from my iPhone

Robert R. Tillman

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Aug 23, 2015, 5:37:41 PM8/23/15
to Armand Domalewski, Sonja Trauss, Mike Ege, Kate Vershov Downing, sfbarentersfed
My observation regarding this group is that it is a coalition of people from the full range of the political spectrum who agree strongly on one issue. To maximize that strength, it is best to focus the group on the mission. Otherwise, the coalition is in danger of not lasting and is open to criticism from the anti-development forces. Anyone who supports the core mission of the group should be welcomed with open arms, regardless of their motives for supporting the mission, which may be different for every individual.



Robert R. Tillman
RRT Partners LLC
14 Sunshine Ave.
Sausalito, CA 94965
415-332-9242 Telephone


rituvo...@yahoo.com

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Aug 23, 2015, 5:47:00 PM8/23/15
to Robert R. Tillman, Armand Domalewski, Sonja Trauss, Mike Ege, Kate Vershov Downing, sfbarentersfed
I agree with Robert as well. 

And for your personal sakes, you have chosen to stand for a cause and against the NIMBYs that exposes you to a lot of negative energy / personal attacks and a ton of toxicity. As you devote yourselves to this cause, there will be many challenges thrown your way and keeping your sanity through this will be important. And now the much the needed cliche " it's a marathon( actually more like an ironman in shark infested waters) not a sprint". 

Much strength,

Ritu



Sent from my iPhone

Sonja Trauss

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Aug 23, 2015, 6:34:04 PM8/23/15
to rituvo...@yahoo.com, Robert R. Tillman, Armand Domalewski, Mike Ege, Kate Vershov Downing, sfbarentersfed
Ok one of you should make a thread called Prop J: Legacy business Vote "no response" 

I'll be posting the updates every day, so you'll be able to see your progress on the campaign to get the PAC votes to average between 2 & 3 or get few enough people to weigh in that there can't be an endorsement. Lobby the list and your friends. 

It is fully within your powers to ensure the outcome you want occurs. 

Sonja Trauss

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Aug 23, 2015, 6:50:13 PM8/23/15
to rituvo...@yahoo.com, Robert R. Tillman, Armand Domalewski, Mike Ege, Kate Vershov Downing, sfbarentersfed
For the No endorse J crowd: 

The current average score for J is less than 2, which means (Today) if you want the average to go above 2, you have to vote "5." 
 
I'll post the averages as they change. In the long run, your message to people who haven't voted should be "abstain on J," but you'll have to look at the running average. You might decide to tell people to vote "5" or "0" depending on where the average is. 

Go back and change your votes so they move the average in the direction you want. 

Armand Domalewski

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Aug 23, 2015, 7:21:58 PM8/23/15
to Sonja Trauss, rituvo...@yahoo.com, Robert R. Tillman, Mike Ege, Kate Vershov Downing, sfbarentersfed
The problem with this system is that getting a no endorsement vs a no is way too complicated for the average voter. They have to monitor results daily and whip hard enough for a no endorsement but not so hard to get a no? And vice versa?

Sent from my iPhone

Sonja Trauss

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Aug 23, 2015, 8:08:08 PM8/23/15
to Armand Domalewski, rituvo...@yahoo.com, Robert R. Tillman, Mike Ege, Kate Vershov Downing, sfbarentersfed
So far I have 5 people who think the position should be "no endorsement" and 397 people on the list. What does everyone else think? How about we vote and find out. 

The important thing is that 0 of you 5 have entered votes that reflect your goal stated in these emails. The power is in your hands right now to bring the average to the "no endorsement" level. Go, be the change you wish the see in the world. 

Mike Ege

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Aug 23, 2015, 8:15:52 PM8/23/15
to Sonja Trauss, Armand Domalewski, rituvo...@yahoo.com, Robert R. Tillman, Kate Vershov Downing, sfbarentersfed
You mean erasing our vote or voting 2 or 3? 
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Sonja Trauss

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Aug 23, 2015, 8:22:37 PM8/23/15
to Mike Ege, Armand Domalewski, rituvo...@yahoo.com, Robert R. Tillman, Kate Vershov Downing, sfbarentersfed
It's the average score that matters, so I would suggest voting 5 to drag the score up at this point. 

If later the score is too high for your taste, withdraw your vote. 

Let me know if the form doesn't let you take your vote away and I will change it. 

Kyle Huey

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Aug 23, 2015, 8:29:39 PM8/23/15
to Sonja Trauss, Mike Ege, Armand Domalewski, rituvo...@yahoo.com, Robert R. Tillman, Kate Vershov Downing, sfbarentersfed
This is too complicated for my tiny brain, so I'm going to trust your executive decisions on what to endorse and what to pass on.

- Kyle

Aaron

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Aug 23, 2015, 9:07:22 PM8/23/15
to SFBA Renters Federation, sonja....@gmail.com, able...@gmail.com, armanddo...@gmail.com, rituvo...@yahoo.com, rr...@pacbell.net, kate.v...@gmail.com
It seems like that disadvantages the "no endorsement" crowd and subjects the results to a lot of variance (i.e. they would have to follow the results and be voting and withdrawing more frequently toward the end as the results change making the results less consistent and even somewhat random.) In fact, since I wish to vote no endorsement on many of the props, I don't see any point in voting until the deadline.
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Ram K

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Aug 24, 2015, 2:33:12 PM8/24/15
to SFBA Renters Federation, sonja....@gmail.com, able...@gmail.com, armanddo...@gmail.com, rituvo...@yahoo.com, rr...@pacbell.net, kate.v...@gmail.com
Would it be possible to add a "don't endorse" or "not housing related" option to the form? That would make things easier for the no-endorse crowd.


On Sunday, August 23, 2015 at 5:29:39 PM UTC-7, Kyle Huey wrote:
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Sonja Trauss

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Aug 24, 2015, 4:46:20 PM8/24/15
to Ram K, SFBA Renters Federation, Mike Ege, Armand Domalewski, Ritu Vohra, Robert R. Tillman, Kate Vershov Downing
I put a "no endorse" option in.

Paid parental leave & Surplus public lands are getting more popular by the day (You Socialists), and Short-Term rentals is getting more destroyed by the day.

But the real news is ... Congratulations to the No Endorse on J lobby - you successfully dragged the average score up to "No Endorse" territory! SUCCESS 👑 SUCCESS

Prop B: Paid Parental Leave - 4.94
Prop K: Surplus Public Lands - 4.18
Prop D: Mission Rock - 4.10
Prop A: Affordable housing Bond - 3.81
Prop H: Defining Clean energy - 3.53
Prop E: Public Meetings - 2.84
Prop J: Legacy Business - 2.14
Prop C: Expenditure Lobbying - 1.19
Prop G: Disclosures about Energy - 1.14
Prop F: Short-Term Rentals - 0.68
Prop I: Mission Moratorium - 0.05

Now make a topic in the googlegroup encouraging people to vote - "No Endorse" from here on out.

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gar...@gmail.com

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Aug 26, 2015, 8:10:10 PM8/26/15
to SFBA Renters Federation
I totally agree with Robert. It is very silly that a group focused on housing should be at all considering endorsing unrelated valid measures.

Noveed Safipour

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Aug 26, 2015, 8:21:48 PM8/26/15
to gar...@gmail.com, SFBA Renters Federation
But what if we all happen to agree or have strong feelings about a non-housing related issue? Why shouldn't we endorse then? The Paid Parental Leave is a prime example of that. And arguably, Prop C affects the group, even though it isn't about housing.

I think going forward, there should just be a "no endorsement/no opinion" option--might as well make it the same.

If that is chosen by over 50% of voters, then there's no endorsement regardless of how it does in the poll.

--Noveed

On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 5:10 PM, <gar...@gmail.com> wrote:
I totally agree with Robert. It is very silly that a group focused on housing should be at all considering endorsing unrelated valid measures.
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Sonja Trauss

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Aug 26, 2015, 8:45:04 PM8/26/15
to Noveed Safipour, gar...@gmail.com, SFBA Renters Federation
There is a no endorsement/ no opinion option 
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Sonja Trauss

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Aug 26, 2015, 8:47:48 PM8/26/15
to gar...@gmail.com, SFBA Renters Federation
The "no endorsement on J" lobby was very successful, you can read what happened with that earlier in this very thread. 

The upshot is that if you think something, like parental leave, shouldn't be endorsed, you have to take steps to achieve that goal: lobby people to change their vote to 0 (to drag down the average) or vote no opinion/ no endorse. That's what elections are all about! 


On Wednesday, August 26, 2015, <gar...@gmail.com> wrote:
I totally agree with Robert. It is very silly that a group focused on housing should be at all considering endorsing unrelated valid measures.

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Gary Miguel

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Aug 26, 2015, 8:59:11 PM8/26/15
to Sonja Trauss, SFBA Renters Federation

Having to debate whether or not to endorse every single ballot measure is just a distraction from the issues that have brought us together. This group should focus on its core issues.

Sonja Trauss

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Aug 26, 2015, 10:52:00 PM8/26/15
to Gary Miguel, SFBA Renters Federation
That's what voting is. You think one thing, another person thinks another. Who is right? What should be done? Vote on it. 

Depending on how strongly you feel you can limit your efforts to your own vote, or lobby other group members, or recruit new people who will vote the way you want. It's up to you. The outcome you desire is possible. 

Nico Pitney

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Aug 27, 2015, 12:13:40 PM8/27/15
to Sonja Trauss, Gary Miguel, SFBA Renters Federation
Out of curiosity, are there means by which members could initiate a separate vote on whether SFBARF should only make endorsements on measures related to housing?

I appreciate the flexible nature of the current system, but I also think it necessarily discourages a big-tent approach (by alienating members with minority views on non-housing issues). Also, I'm not sure it offers an entirely accurate picture of members' views:

- Members have an incentive to vote for or against measures they care about (rather than abstaining) simply to ensure that the group does not end up endorsing the position with which they disagree.

- When voting, it's not always clear what the appropriate action is to achieve one's desired end. For instance, if I want the group to not take a position on Prop J, and I see in the daily update that J has a score of 1.9, is it better to switch my "No opinion" to 5 to try to raise the score to 2 (into the non-endorsement range)? I think it's possible to eliminate this ambiguity.

- The current system treats having no opinion on a measure (possibly because one hasn't studied the details) the same as preferring that the group not endorse. These seem like different stances. For instance, it's possible that many of the non-voters on Props G and H are just not familiar with the issues but would be perfectly comfortable with the group issuing endorsements.

Another possible change to address these issues is to tweak the voting system so that for each measure, members answer two questions:

1) Should SFBARF make an endorsement on this measure?
2) If SFBARF does make an endorsement, what is your preference? (with the 0-5 options + No opinion)




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Nico Pitney

Mike Ege

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Aug 27, 2015, 12:26:12 PM8/27/15
to Nico Pitney, Sonja Trauss, Gary Miguel, SFBA Renters Federation
The more i think about this, the more i think the following:

1. This initial process is just that. If we find in this or subsequent elections that we don't get enough votes to endorse non- housing issues, then we can make a bylaw change to skip them in the future.

2. For there to be a bylaw change, there need to be bylaws. Which are in fact being worked on. We're a new group and process is an incremental...process.


Sonja Trauss

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Aug 27, 2015, 12:42:37 PM8/27/15
to Mike Ege, Nico Pitney, Gary Miguel, SFBA Renters Federation
Yes! Nico - you make another Google form and promote it etc. same thing as the one i made, share the responses & I'll check the respondents against the db of voters. You'll have to define "non housing related." Easiest would just be to list the ones this year that you think aren't housing related. Legacy business, for instance, I consider to be housing related, and I think we should endorse it, I voted 5 on it, but not everyone does. So the vote goes. 

I would seriously consider though, if I were you, just picking which measures you want to yield a "no endorse" and campaigning to make that happen. Either path you take you are running a campaign.
The current score for J isn't 1.9, it's above 2, so J is "no endorse." Once the score is in the middle, the right thing to do it keep abstaining. I started reporting % abstaining once some of them got above 50%. For instance H and G are "no endorse" because not enough people responded to it. I sent out an update yesterday w a new title bc this thread got filled up w convo about the process. 

Re: bylaws. The (c)(3) has bylaws, the PAC doesn't, and I have no particular plan to write any for the PAC at this point, although I guess I could. The PAC and the federation are do-ocracies. 

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Ram

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Aug 27, 2015, 4:56:22 PM8/27/15
to Sonja Trauss, Mike Ege, Nico Pitney, Gary Miguel, SFBA Renters Federation
>- Members have an incentive to vote for or against measures they care about (rather than abstaining) simply to ensure that the group does not end up endorsing the position with which they disagree.
>
>- When voting, it's not always clear what the appropriate action is to achieve one's desired end. For instance, if I want the group to not take a position on Prop J, and I see in the daily update that J has a score of 1.9, is it better to switch my "No opinion" to 5 to try to raise the score to 2 (into the non-endorsement range)? I think it's possible to eliminate this ambiguity.

We can fix this by changing the way we count votes. We can say that we'll only endorse a yes vote if the score is over 3 even if we count no-endorse votes as 0. Similarly, we only endorse a no vote if the score is under 2 while counting no-endorse votes as 5. This will tend skew the results toward not endorsing, so we could use a narrower pair of thresholds (e.g. over/under 2.5) to correct for that.

A system like that ensures that it's always in your interest to vote the way you actually believe, rather than trying to game the vote. If you don't think we should endorse on a measure, it will never be more effective to vote for or against it than it would be to just vote no-endorse.

>- The current system treats having no opinion on a measure (possibly because one hasn't studied the details) the same as preferring that the group not endorse. These seem like different stances. For instance, it's possible that many of the non-voters on Props G and H are just not familiar with the issues but would be perfectly comfortable with the group issuing endorsements.

Yeah, having no opinion isn't really the same as having the opinion that we shouldn't endorse either way. It would be nice to separate that out, or just treat abstentions as no-opinion votes.

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Noveed Safipour

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Aug 27, 2015, 5:20:59 PM8/27/15
to Ram, Sonja Trauss, Mike Ege, Nico Pitney, Gary Miguel, SFBA Renters Federation
One thing I'm not sure I was clear about in my previous comment:

We should set things up so if you choose "no opinion/no endorsement", you can also still rate it for the way you would vote if SFBARF does endorse.

Really, each ballot initiative item should have two questions: 0 to 5 liking the ballot initiative, and yes/no should we endorse it.

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Sonja Trauss

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Aug 27, 2015, 5:25:41 PM8/27/15
to Noveed Safipour, Ram, Mike Ege, Nico Pitney, Gary Miguel, SFBA Renters Federation
On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 2:20 PM, Noveed Safipour <noveed....@gmail.com> wrote:
One thing I'm not sure I was clear about in my previous comment:

We should set things up so if you choose "no opinion/no endorsement", you can also still rate it for the way you would vote if SFBARF does endorse.
This assumes I need information about what the group "truly" thinks about off-topic ballot measures which I don't.
Take parental leave for instance.

People game votes to ensure no endorsement ---> outcome: no endorsement
People give their true opinion about the measure, but also vote to not endorse ---> outcome: no endorsement & I, sonja trauss, have some extra sort of demographic info about the membership.

It's the same effective outcome. I don't need the extra info.

Sonja Trauss

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Aug 27, 2015, 5:30:16 PM8/27/15
to Ram, Mike Ege, Nico Pitney, Gary Miguel, SFBA Renters Federation
I don't think there is anything wrong with a system that encourages gaming the vote ... there's no system of voting that perfectly aggregates the desires of individuals. All systems can be gamed. This one is more or less an example of Range voting, it has many good properties, it is common amongst political clubs.

I need you guys to become the kind of people who (1) can evaluate how a voting system can be gamed (2) can decide what outcome you, personally, want to see (3) can figure out how to achieve that outcome (4) can run an internal campaign to achieve your end. I am absolutely unsympathetic to the complaint that it's "hard" to know how vote to achieve your goal. Figure it out. Also the fact that achieving your end requires campaigning (i.e. recruiting people that agree with you to join the club in order to vote, chatting up your fellow members) is a FEATURE not a bug. I want a system that encourages members to recruit more members and encourages members to talk to each other about the issues. 

For clarity - abstentions are treated the same as no-opinion votes.
"0" and no-opinion/ abstention/ don't endorse are not the same. "0" means, "I hate it." If half of the group hates something and half likes it, that should translate into no endorsement either way, because we don't have agreement.

it's true that literally "i don't know/ I don't have an opinion" is not the same as "we shouldn't endorse it," but if most people in our group don't know anything about a particular measure, that is a reality that should be reflected by the group not having an endorsement on that issue. If we have a situation where most people in the group think the group should have an opinion on an issue, but most people don't know anything about the issue, the correct next step is for someone to do some research and then disseminate it. During the 2 week voting period we should see at least one thread started on the list - "What does anyone here know about Prop X?" Then, the minority of the group members that do know a lot about the issue can share what they know and so on.

In the other direction, if a lot of people in the group do know a lot about a measure, but none-the-less think the group shouldn't have an opinion on it, then they should just vote "no opinion." Nothing is lost by my not being able to see that expertise on a non-housing issue exists in the voting members. so this is a distinction without an effective difference.

On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 1:56 PM, Ram <ram.ka...@gmail.com> wrote:

Noveed Safipour

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Aug 27, 2015, 5:32:03 PM8/27/15
to Sonja Trauss, Ram, Mike Ege, Nico Pitney, Gary Miguel, SFBA Renters Federation
True, you don't need that extra info--BUT, it might come in handy the next time an SF progressive says SFBARF is secretly Republican-backed or some crazy stuff.

"You're all neo-cons who hate Hispanic people!"
"Actually, our membership indicated that they support <insert progressive ballot initiative not related to housing>."

Sonja Trauss

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Aug 27, 2015, 5:35:49 PM8/27/15
to Noveed Safipour, Ram, Mike Ege, Nico Pitney, Gary Miguel, SFBA Renters Federation
ok lol - but if that's useful in that context, maybe it would be useful to just go ahead and do the endorsement!

The most important thing though is that I put all the ballot measures on there because that is what all the other political clubs do. It is standard for clubs to weigh in somehow on all measures. All clubs have some voting system that results in Yes, No, No endorse for each measure. I'm not re-inventing the wheel here.

SK Trauss

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Aug 27, 2015, 5:49:37 PM8/27/15
to SFBA Renters Federation, noveed....@gmail.com, ram.ka...@gmail.com, able...@gmail.com, nico....@gmail.com, gar...@gmail.com
Here's yesterday's update: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/sfbarentersfed/5qXCX3UM8BE in case you didn't see it.

I'll do another summary tonight after more people vote during the day today.


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Gary Miguel

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Aug 27, 2015, 8:59:53 PM8/27/15
to SK Trauss, SFBA Renters Federation, noveed....@gmail.com, ram.ka...@gmail.com, able...@gmail.com, nico....@gmail.com

This group choosing to make an unrelated endorsement does not make me want to recruit more members, it makes me want to find a group that is focused on issues I care about.
Putting everything up to votes is not the best way to run an organization. See the USA constitution, which lays down some basic restrictions on what can and cannot be voted on by the Congress. I think some by laws that restrict this group would be similarly helpful.




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Sonja Trauss

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Aug 27, 2015, 9:34:16 PM8/27/15
to Gary Miguel, SFBA Renters Federation, noveed....@gmail.com, ram.ka...@gmail.com, able...@gmail.com, nico....@gmail.com
Ghe head - join any of the other "yes. Build" citizen orgs. The best thing would be for you to start your own because the more orgs we have the bigger the movement will seem and actually be. 

We definitely don't vote on everything. In fact this is the 1st thing we've ever voted on. 

But, yeah if after the votes are tallied, you don't like the outcome, you should definitely join or start another org. The whole world is a Do-ocracy. 
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