Re: Digest for sfaudio@googlegroups.com - 2 updates in 2 topics
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Benjamin Zwickel
Oct 22, 2016, 3:45:21 PM10/22/16
to sfa...@googlegroups.com
Most all DSD files were converted back and fourth from PCM to DSD during the recording, editing, and mastering process.
And if you don't believe that, feel free to read the plethora of references at the end that were written by recording engineers and companies that make equipment for recording studios. Benjamin Zwickel
Owner, Mojo Audio
No trees were harmed in the making of this e-mail,
though many electrons were greatly inconvenienced.
On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 1:27 PM, <sfa...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
"Christopher Carlsen" <carls...@yahoo.com>: Oct 21 05:21PM -0600
I’m sorry. When you convert PCM to DSD to compare the resulting DSD file to PCM you’re NOT comparing apples to apples. Claims that the conversion process can be/is perfect are just silly. Jitter may be the same. But jitter isn’t everything. This test would only mean something if the same source was originally directly recorded in both PCM and in DSD formats without intervening manipulation. Maybe then you could compare those two direct-recorded, unconverted formats and it might mean something, although I certainly agree with Chris W. that what you hear is what you hear.
Chris Carlsen
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Subject: Abridged summary of sfa...@googlegroups.com - 2 updates in 1 topic
sfa...@googlegroups.com
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* MEASUREMENTS: PCM to DSD Upsampling Effects (JRiver MC19 Beta) - 2 Updates
<http://groups.google.com/group/sfaudio/t/52d11406ab09c527?utm_source=digest&utm_medium=email> MEASUREMENTS: PCM to DSD Upsampling Effects (JRiver MC19 Beta)
Monte Verdi <rs...@comcast.net <mailto:rs...@comcast.net> >: Oct 21 07:51AM -0700
Many of you may have seen this already but I thought it interesting and important to post just the same.
MEASUREMENTS: PCM to DSD Upsampling Effects (JRiver MC19 Beta).
<http://groups.google.com/group/sfaudio/msg/2867cfd927280?utm_source=digest&utm_medium=email> ...more
Chris Woodward <yonf...@gmail.com <mailto:yonf...@gmail.com> >: Oct 21 01:19PM -0600
This reminiscent of tests of tubes vs. solid state, in that those
comparisons always leave me wondering whether they're measuring the right
things, and indeed, whether the "right things" are <http://groups.google.com/group/sfaudio/msg/2952930580126?utm_source=digest&utm_medium=email> ...more
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Monte Verdi <rs...@comcast.net>: Oct 21 03:05PM -0700
From conclusion!
2. Noise shaping pushes the DSD quantization noise into the ultrasonic frequencies as expected. In DSD64 it rises above the noise floor almost right at 20kHz, and in DSD128 it starts around 40kHz. (I vote for pushing it up to 40kHz as less likely to cause distortion through the amp & speakers.)
Also,
" Even though the noise is ultrasonic in nature as measured off the DAC, nonlinearities in the playback system like your headphones and speakers (perhaps certain amps as well) could create audible intermodulation. Maybe for certain music, this could be especially beneficial. "
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Benjamin Zwickel
Oct 24, 2016, 6:04:54 PM10/24/16
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Vinyl purity?
So you’ve been drinking the Kool-aid too.
I say “The Emperor is NAKED!” and I can prove it.
Vinyl is nothing but an euphonic distortion from beginning to end…the entire concept is flawed.
Much like cheap tube gear supposedly sounds more “organic” when all it does is cover up the flaws in a bad system with euphonic distortion.
To begin with, you have speed variations caused by arm drag on more dynamic passages, off center holes, warps, concentric groove distortion, arm/cartridge over/under shooting, and anti-skate distortion.
All the physics is against you.
Then you have surface wear and surface noise.
Then you have relatively terrible specs on signal to noise ratio, channel separation, and dynamic range when compared to digital (max dynamic range on an LP is only 65db).
Not to mention analog has to roll off the top end of vinyl masters because otherwise the cutting heads overheat and melt the vinyl masters (yes, the big classical recording houses recently admitted to that one).
Oh…yea…and most recordings today are mixed and mastered in a digital format so you’re already listening to digital ;-)
One reason vinyl gives the illusion of sounding better than digital is that whatever the distortion may be it comes in a continuous and slowly changing stream as opposed to digital that can have distortion in even, odd, and random forms that are easier for the human ear to notice. The other reason vinyl is superior is that there are no brick wall filters in the top end, so yes, the top end extension on vinyl is superior, of course few people over the age of 40 can actually hear it.
Those are the two technical advantages of vinyl…everything else is myth, legend, and marketing hype.
Of course when people think a bit is a bit is a bit, use laptops, normal computers, or cheap DVD transports as their source, and cheap DACs that lie about having 24-bit resolution when their power supplies have so much noise the output is less than 16-bit resolution, and you combined that with poorly done digital recordings and poorly done masterings from top analog recordings, digital gets a bad name.
About four years ago I brought one of our relatively inferior upgraded Mac Mini servers and one of my early gen DACs to customers with ultrahigh-end vinyl systems with >$50K turntables, with two >$10K arms, and two >$5K cartridges. This was a digital system that had something like half the resolution of what I consider top notch for a digital system today. On their >$150K systems we played well done digital and analog versions of the same recording and the response was jaw dropping. These die hard analog guys could not believe digital could sound like this and admitted you would have to spend over $10K for a turntable and set it up flawlessly to match or beat that digital sound. Compared to the digital I’m listening to today it would be closer to a $20K turntable optimally set up.
And I can count on one hand with fingers left over the number of people I know that can properly setup a turntable :-P
When we have our next gen digital front end around the first of the year I would be happy to bring one around for any of you vinyl heads to hear on your own system.
I think it will be a real ear opener.
Are any of you up for the challenge?
Benjamin Zwickel
No trees were harmed in the making of this email, though several electrons were greatly inconvenienced.
On Oct 24, 2016, at 1:58 PM, sfa...@googlegroups.com wrote:
Read a bit and learn:
https://mojoaudiofiles.wordpress.com/dsd-vs-pcm-myth-vs-truth/
Most all DSD files were converted back and fourth from PCM to DSD during
the recording, editing, and mastering process.
And if you don't believe that, feel free to read the plethora of references
at the end that were written by recording engineers and companies that make
equipment for recording studios.
Benjamin Zwickel
Owner, Mojo Audio
412.735.3618 www.mojo-audio.com
No trees were harmed in the making of this e-mail,
though many electrons were greatly inconvenienced.
Monte Verdi <rs...@comcast.net>: Oct 22 12:44PM -0700
PCM & DSD is a conversion to begin with in the recording process from analog microphones preamps to computers, hence zeros and one's. My point here is processing is rampant to begin with regardless of where it begins or ends, so what, if you want purity IMO play vinyl.
And where noise is concerned it starts at 40k in 2X DSD not a problem unless you're a dog!
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