ot: the 45 mph ebike

[Darrin Ward]

sure i have long since dreamed about hitting 40 mph on a tandem with hobe going to mtv view (neither of us really work there regularly anymore), but does an ebike really need to go 45mph ebike or should it?

https://electrek.co/2019/03/25/hpc-scout-pro-electric-bicycle-fast/

seems to easy for a casual rider to kill themselves.  

darrin

[Ben Kochie]

Over here ebikes as a "bicycle" are limited to boosting up to 25kph (15mph) and 250W. Anything over that requires a license, license plate, etc.

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[Rob]

as long as they're not killing me, i don't have a problem. 

[Kurt Martin]

I’ve been testing a class3 bike with drop bars and disc brakes. It’s a killer way to get around sf but it really requires paying attention and some bike skills. The drop bars make it trickier but faster.

Kurt

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[Brett Lider]

Kurt - which model?

[Kurt Martin]

Trek crossrip

I’m going to do a bayway on it some time just to show non cyclists the commute time w an ebike.

Kurt

[Patrick Kitto]

My Xtracycle kid hauler cuts out at about 19.5-19.7, which as it turns out makes it pretty rad, You have an extra 250W to get up to speed from the stop light, then its all on you to keep the freight train going passed 20. then whenever the grade increases, the motor comes back to keep you at a reasonable pace up hills. the 'comfort saddle' (read: a mile wide and super squishy) and upright position make it a little tough to really put down the power, though.

I could see it being real easy to get yourself in trouble if the electric assist kept pushing. which is why I now dream of a bafang BBSHD 1000W kit onto my old Surly

[Christine Ryan]

Also,  the frames of "speed" bikes (as the 28 mph ones are called) are engineered to withstand the higher speeds, which is why it's generally a bad idea to circumvent the governor on a non-speed bike's motor. It doesn't look like the frame of that Scout is as beefy as I'd expect...

[Kurt Martin]

My biggest issue with the fast e-bikes I've ridden is with the rider maintaining control. The bikes are heavy, and they generate a lot of forces that the rider has to control. It's super easy to go into a turn at an inappropriate speed (for the available traction, reaction times, the bike's ability to maintain the turn radius despite bumps, etc.) and end up in trouble. People don't have the skills to hit turns in the mid-20s, and on a descent the bikes are so fast. Anyway, going up hills and into headwinds at 20 is magical, and the Jump bike share bikes are pretty fabulous. $2 to get across town faster than anyone else is cool.

Kurt Wallace Martin
Bikes Make Life Better
415.412.7033

[Peter Colijn]

At 45mph they may as well be mopeds/vespas/etc. If folks wanna ride them that's cool but I would just hope they use the regular car lanes at that point. I don't really want to be passed by someone going 45mph in a narrow bike lane.

[Darrin Ward]

it makes me certainly wonder if there is some sort of weird ebike loophole?

a motorcycle at 50cc which is 1600 watts requires a motorcycle license. 

[Matthew Kenaston]

... when I roll up to PfC on my 45mph ebike

P.s. peter, dm me pls. Keep spotting you and don’t have your new contact info matthew.kenaston@gmail

‪https://www.theguardian.com/sport/video/2019/mar/25/fight-erupts-after-bikes-clash-in-costa-rica-motorcycle-race-video?CMP=share_btn_tw‬

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[Justin!]

Hi Darrin-

Ebikes in CA can’t exceed 28 mph and can’t have over 750W. https://currentebikes.com/ebike-classes-california/

So that one in the link wouldn’t be a legal ebike in CA - it would be a motor driven cycle (e.g., you’d need a motorcycle license and a DOT motorcycle helmet). https://www.chp.ca.gov/programs-services/programs/california-motorcyclist-safety/motorcycles-and-similar-vehicles

[Clay Kunz]

I ride a stromer 2 (a class 3 bike, the boost goes to 28mph) most weekdays from Marin into SF and back. I've had it 6 months and it took quite a bit of getting used to. I had a couple of close calls in traffic and now make a very conscious effort to keep it as mellow as I can, especially around pedestrians. And I try to give cyclists a big berth when I pass them, too. Or just wait for space, if it's too tight. 3 feet and all that.

I've found, unsurprisingly, that modern bike lanes (e.g. Miller Ave. in Mill Valley) are engineered for a certain speed of bike to be visible. Cars pulling out of parking lots can't see bikes far enough away around/through parallel parked cars on the roadside to be able to effectively yield to someone going close to 30 in a bike lane.  Somebody going 45mph in a bike lane would not be visible to cars pulling out. The right-hook danger is higher too, since you're more likely to be passing cars on the right, which they never expect.

These things are super fun and a fantastic way for people to get around, and enable folks who otherwise wouldn't ride a bike to start doing so. But the adjustment period seems like its going to take a while, especially if infrastructure / engineering standards have to change to catch up.

[Dan Yang (Millbrae lurker)]

That is exactly the problem.  Many people riding ebikes are novice cyclist.  Most cyclist build up their skills and more importantly their sense of etiquette/safety rules as they get faster.  Ebikes give novice the instant speed without going through that process (present company excluded).  I've been almost run-over by ebikes and electric scooters while walking with my kids on Swawyer Camp trail on the weekend.  Perhaps we just need to more strictly enforce the speed limit for everyone on the trails.

[Rob]

On Tuesday, March 26, 2019 at 11:00:02 AM UTC-7, Dan Yang (Millbrae lurker) wrote:

That is exactly the problem.  Many people riding ebikes are novice cyclist.  Most cyclist build up their skills and more importantly their sense of etiquette/safety rules as they get faster.  Ebikes give novice the instant speed without going through that process (present company excluded).  I've been almost run-over by ebikes and electric scooters while walking with my kids on Swawyer Camp trail on the weekend.  Perhaps we just need to more strictly enforce the speed limit for everyone on the trails.

i'd prefer more enforcement on the stuff that kills us, like cars and trucks, etc. Rather than more enforcement on congested trails like sawyer camp I'd prefer opening the sf watershed for bikes, hikes etc, to ease the congestion.

[Rob]

On Tuesday, March 26, 2019 at 10:07:24 AM UTC-7, Clay Kunz wrote:

I've found, unsurprisingly, that modern bike lanes (e.g. Miller Ave. in Mill Valley) are engineered for a certain speed of bike to be visible. Cars pulling out of parking lots can't see bikes far enough away around/through parallel parked cars on the roadside to be able to effectively yield to someone going close to 30 in a bike lane.  Somebody going 45mph in a bike lane would not be visible to cars pulling out. The right-hook danger is higher too, since you're more likely to be passing cars on the right, which they never expect.

I don't think these problems are unique to ebikes. There are plenty of bikelanes which aren't designed for the speeds which we ride. Offhand, the protected one in the park, fine for leisurely riding but  when going at a good clip 18-30 mph i stay in the travel lane. there are plenty of downhill bike lanes which just shouldn't be ridden in, clipper is one example. I feel like the goal of that lane was to narrow the street to slow drivers down rather than provide any type of bike infrastructure. Additionally, when going through intersections cars are usually parked right up to the crosswalks (marked or unmarked) so it is hard to see pedestrians -- i usually swing into the travel lane, esp if i am rolling a stop sign.

[John Murphy]

I was living on Clipper when they put that in.

My take on that lane was they put it in because there was excess road capacity so nobody would complain about it, and they could pad their stats with an extra 1/4 mile of bike lane. 

However, the lane at the top where it intersects with Diamond or whatever at the stop at the top, some randos up in Diamond Heights protested it would cause armaggedon.

[Maxence Nachury]

I usually take the downhill bike lane on Clipper every day on my way home to pass one or two cars. I find it uncomfortable to trail cars that brake erratically when going >50mph.

For the past month, the resurfacing has made that downhill a bit hairy. Hoping for some perfect asphalt soon.

[Matthew Hiller]

Bike Snob's quote on all this is that ebikes are bad-cycling magnifiers. If your ordinary riding is more-or-less free of errors, you'll be fine on an e-bike. But if you don't know what you're doing, watch out everyone else!

[John Murphy]

This is so true on the Steven's Creek Trail at 8 AM. Holy crap.

[Scott Perry]

Not just cycling experience, more power also magnifies your riding style.

As an (e-)motorcyclist I've found this hypothesis to not only be true, but also without limit.

Scott

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[Dan Yang (Millbrae lurker)]

I agree with the importance on keeping cyclists safe on the street from cars and trucks.  It does not conflict with keeping everyone safe on multi-use trails.  Multi-use trails are not speed ways, for cyclists or anyone else.  I am speaking as a cyclist and a father who had his son almost run over by a speeding cyclist and getting yelled at by the same cyclist.  These are the rare few who makes the rest of the cycling community look bad to the general public.  If you want to exceed the 15mph speed limit on a congested trail like Sawyer Camp trail, perhaps you should ride on the road.  Regardless of mode of transport or recreation, we need to do our part to keep everyone safe.

[Mark Kahn]

Unfortunately, not that rare...

[Rob]

In practice I agree, I never take those paths. However, Tom noted in another thread some years ago that these paths were put in for commuting cyclists:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sf2g/_IHC2EWNuX4/Nw9RGVGnbjMJ (unfortunately the photo is no longer available) and due to the conversion to multi-path use resulted in the 2 280 bypass sections.