New bike choice: Cervelo S2/R3 or BMC Roadracer

[Alejandro Villarreal]

Hi,

I'm looking for some first-hand knowledge/experience* with a couple frames:

-2009/10 Cervelo S2 

-2010 Cervelo R3

-2011 BMC Roadracer SL-01

I plan to start getting involved in racing come the new year (wooo crit workshops), ride 80-130mi week, and prefer a stiffer/tighter frame. For my $3500 budget (compete bike), the above seem to be my best bet. 

I got some really good info from a cat 2 woman racer on BMC (she rides a Team Machine and in has been sponsored by them) but haven't heard much on Cervelos; so I'm opening this up to the collective wisdom of SF2G. 

*aka: bonus points and I'll take you more serious if you have ridden one or more of these frames :)

Thanks!

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Alejandro Villarreal | Program Manager | aleja...@google.com | 408-421-5158

[Judd Blair]

I have a 2010 R3. I'll send you some thoughts on it later - Marc has a 2010 S2 and Bliz is on a BMC pro machine (higher end, but close enough). I have a friend in Paris on a road racer, but he's a fairly new cyclist and I doubt he'd have much feedback on the subject other than "it looks badass".

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[Brooks Sizemore]

You probably don't want to take a fancy new bike to those early bird
crits; this year there was a crash nearly every week. The clinics are
about learning, not about winning, so bike stiffness/tightness
probably isn't too important.

If you want first-hand experience with a particular frame, just go
visit some shops in town for test rides.

Pacific Bicycle: Cervelo, Giant, Scott
Roaring Mouse: Specialized, Litespeed
Big Swingin' Cycles: Orbea, Cannondale, Moots
Freewheel: BMC, Bianchi, Look, et al.

-- Brooks

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Brooks Sizemore
bro...@darg.net

[Jason Thorpe]

I'm gonna put in a plug in for Cannondale CAAD9 (no longer made, but *awesome*, and frequently on eBay), and CAAD10 (the follow-on - I don't have any first-hand experience with it, but I know someone who has one and loves it).

The CAAD bikes are by far best bang-for-buck out there in a racing bike: very high performance, light weight frame, Ultegra or SRAM Rival builds go for way less than your budget, and won't completely explode if you crash because they're aluminum. I'm a fairly big guy and ride a 60cm frame. My CAAD9 is 17.5 lbs in race configuration, and that's a Rival build (Ultegra pedals, Fulcrum Racing 3 wheels) with basically no[*] effort in weight-weenie'ing the bike (e.g. cutting off excess seat post, switching to lighter stem / bars, etc.)

[*] I do have a lighter saddle than the stock Prologo (a Specialized Phenom SL), but there are much lighter saddles available than that one.

(And yes, I was caught up in one of those bad early bird crit crashes this year- my CAAD9 fared quite well - better than I did, actually.)

I'll summarize thus: I absolutely love my CAAD9. I will ride it until either the frame is no longer ridable or I can no longer ride, whichever comes first.

Call Big Swingin' Cycles about a CAAD10 test ride (Roaring Mouse and Mike's Bikes also carry Cannondale).

-- thorpej
Sent from my iPhone.

[Alejandro Villarreal]

Don't take it to crit clinics - got it :)

Thanks to everyone so far!

[Lina Mårtensson]

You know, people crash on carbon fiber bikes all the time, and they're
fine the majority of the time... That being said, I don't think every
new racer needs to go buy a carbon fiber bike either. :)

(My bike got a new derailleur hanger after I crashed. Good thing I
broke the fall with my face and my ulna!)

-Lina

[Judd Blair]

There's also this, if you fit one of the sizes... http://www.competitivecyclist.com/frame/2009-pinarello-fp6-sram-force-complete-bike-9926.html

Anyways, like I said, I have a 2010 R3, which is the last model year I'd consider from this bike - fuck everything about the new BB interface on the 2011's, there's enough out there already. You're going to hear a lot of marketing jargon when you're shopping for bikes - "stiffer" this, more "vertically compliant" that, and yeah, there's some truth to it all, but don't get too swept up in it. Brooks is right - you're going to want to get out there and ride a bunch of them - I made a short list (Giant TCR advanced, Cervelo R3, Scott Addict, Specialized Tarmac SL3, Orbea Opal etc) and then went out and rode them. 

What I like about the R3 is that it's NOT the stiffest thing on the block, but it's stiff in the right places - the chainstays and bottom bracket are massive, yet the little noodly seatstays flex like crazy and soak up crappy pavement. The R3 is a classic road racer, through and through - no aero nonsense, no weird tricks with the frame material or geometry, just a classic road racer, something I'd like to think Eddy wouldn't mind riding if he was still racing today. The geometry is tight - the wheelbase in particular is short, so it's going to feel somewhere in the realm of "fast" to "slightly unstable" in the corners, depending on what you're used to. I think it's spot on compared to the dog-slow Orbea and "remarkably unremarkable" (my way of saying dead neutral) Giant. The ride quality is buttery smooth - this is their Roubaix bike, after all, so this shouldn't really come as a surprise - it loves to be beat up and surf crappy pavement.

All in all it's a great bike. But Jason has a good point - the CAAD series is amazing, and with their configurations, Cervelo has made kind of a misstep (in my opinion) - the R3 is the same frame, same materials whether you get Dura Ace, Red, or Rival. The problem here is that this is certainly a high-end frame - so a Rival configuration clocking in around $3.1k is a bit absurd in my opinion - you're going to get way more bang-for-your-buck in the wheel/components department than you are getting an awesome frame and putting a sub-par groupset on it.

In fact, you can get a 2011 CAAD10-1 with Dura Ace for almost $1000 less than a 2011 Rival equipped R3. Holy shit.

[Lina Mårtensson]

And here's to Judd's and Brooks' point about going to test ride a
shitload of bikes... I absolutely love my Giant TCR Advanced. I test
rode something very close to the list that Judd wrote down actually,
with the exception of riding a lower end Tarmac because that's all
they had in my size (HATED it! to my great surprise, because I love my
Specialized Allez), and I skipped riding whatever Scott it was that I
looked at because it had an integrated seatpost anyway and I wasn't
super interested in it. In the end I was choosing between the R3 and
the Giant and I eventually went for the Giant because it's as if it
said "come on, lean me more, lean me more!" in every corner so I just
kept cornering more aggressively on it and it felt great. The Giant
fits me, suits my riding well apparently, magically feels good to me.
That's not what it does for Judd. You won't know what any of the bikes
do for you until you try them.

-Lina

[Alejandro Villarreal]

Having never test ridden bikes before (my previous bike was a 2006 Specialized Allez e5 off of CL), how long/far do you typical ride them?

[Lina Mårtensson]

You can't take them out for all that long, and it's difficult to get
too much variety in what you ride. I ended up doing the most important
part of my test riding in some empty parking lots that I found near
the shop, where I could test sprinting on the way over, and then hella
cornering. I tried some climbing in Potrero Hill but soon skipped it -
all the bikes I test rode had a standard double with 11-25 cassettes
or something like that, so that's going to feel like crap if you're
used to a compact and an 11-28. I thought it would be a brilliant idea
to try descending on that super curvy part of Vermont St or wherever
it is, but that didn't work at all - too steep and curvy, I had to use
the brakes too much.

http://www.chainreaction.com/roadbiketestrides.htm is useful.

On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 10:56 AM, Alejandro Villarreal

[Jason Thorpe]

Yah, I know. But you do have to be a lot more careful with them after a crash (have them inspected for damage). When I see a chip or scratch from impact in the paint of my CAAD9, I'm bummed, but not worried that there's a crack underneath it.

-- thorpej
Sent from my iPad

[Judd Blair]

Test riding from Pacific, Lina turned me on to this little loop in back of the store that's you can rail around the corners on and basically treat like a mini crit (keep in mind, of course, cars tend to appear out of nowhere and won't expect a cycling shooting around a corner at 25 mph).

Other than that, you want to put it through the paces of what you'd expect out of real-life riding: find a straight piece of road (embarcadero works) and sprint on it as hard as you can. Note any flex points, how the acceleration feels, if the frame dives or shudders at all under heavy braking load. Try to find a hill to climb and note how it feels on that, and the same on the descent - try to hit a hard corner at the bottom of the descent and see how it behaves. 

A test ride will likely be short, but you'll get enough feedback out of it to determine the bike's personality. 

Re: the Giant TCR, I loved that bike as well, and it was certainly much more forgiving in the corners than the R3....that just wasn't a quality I was looking for. 

[Peter Chang]

Le 25 août 2011 11:03, Jason Thorpe <tho...@me.com> a écrit :
> Yah, I know.  But you do have to be a lot more careful with them after a crash (have them inspected for damage). When I see a chip or scratch from impact in the paint of my CAAD9, I'm bummed, but not worried that there's a crack underneath it.

you still need to be careful w/ aluminum/steel/etc. i sheered the top
tub of an Al bike from what i can only assume was a small ding before
it failed. crashes are crashes and should probably not be considered
the 'normal' mode of operation :-)

\p

[Alejandro Villarreal]

This is all great info! Thanks :)

Re: the Dogma, unfortunately the 53 is going to be way too big for me, I'm in the 52-53.5 TT range. Bummer. 

I had already planned to hit up Pacific Bikes and Wrench Science (BMC dealer that I might get a hook-up at) this weekend. 

[Judd Blair]

I would recommend giving your wallet to someone else for protection before entering Wrench Science (that would be for protection from yourself).

[djconnel]

Agree with Jason: can't go wrong with a CAAD-10. It's lighter than a
dogma, comes in a lot of sizes, has good geometry (reasonable trail,
bottom bracket drop optimized by size), and if you break it you can
replace it without financial crisis. CAAD-10 is essentially an Al
Cannondale Evo, which is the lightest frame you can buy, weighing less
than 400 grams more (less than a half hour of sweat on a warm day).

On the bikes you listed, the S2 will be more aero, the R3 lighter and
more comfortable. A lot goes into how aero you are of which a frame
is a small fraction. None of the top 20 overall in the Tour this
year were on aero frames. Take that for what it's worth.

[Alejandro Villarreal]

Yeah, I wasn't expecting any noticeable aero benefit between the S2 and R3 - leaning more towards the R3 for that reason. I'll give the Caad10 a ride since so many of you are recommending it. I had my heart set on carbon, but I suppose that could change if I'm wowed. 

Damn those BMCs are sexy though ;) 

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[faye steiner]

Some shops will let you do a longer test ride than others. If you are
interested in Cervelos, check out Summit Bikes (in Burlingame and they
have a shop in Los Gatos too). They're also selling off their 2011
demos right now. I bet Les (owner) would let you take out a bike for
a longer test rides. They actually do demos of their high end Treks
and Cervelos.

F

On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 11:23 AM, djconnel <djco...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Russell Vernick]

They rent them too.  You could take it for the day, tweak it for fit and get a lot of riding in.  They'll take the rental off the price.

---

From: faye steiner <faye.s...@gmail.com>
To: djco...@gmail.com
Cc: SF2G <sf...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 11:31 AM
Subject: Re: New bike choice: Cervelo S2/R3 or BMC Roadracer

[Brooks Sizemore]

Pacific didn't seem to care how long my test rides were. I took each
bike on the same basic circuit: Up Folsom, left on Embarcadero, left
on Broadway, up Montgomery, down Union, and back via
Columbus/Montgomery.

I ended up test riding my current bike three times over the span of a
weekend before making the decision. They didn't mind at all.

-- Brooks

[djconnel]

I did a test ride at Pacific and took the Cervelo SLC over the GG
bridge, up Conzelman, and back. The S2 is similar to the old SLC.
The bridge was a good test because I got to see how the aero frame did
in cross-winds. Conzelman tested climbing and descending.

Sports Basement Presidio has both the CAAD-10 and the brand-new still-
rare carbon Evo (both Cannondale). That would be a good carbon-Al
comparison, since geometry is so close and the fork is similar. The
bikes are almost indistinguishable other than material. I was
surprised how good the CAAD-9 rode when I tested one @ Mikes @ 4th/
Folsom. I was directly aiming it at potholes and it took the hits
fine. I'd expected a jarring ride from the Al, but it was good. I
wouldn't trust Sports Basement to do a good bike fit, however. You
definitely want a good person to do that for you. It's the most
important thing in bike selection.

> >>> On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 10:40 AM, Judd Blair <juddbl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> > There's also this, if you fit one of the
>

> >>> > sizes... http://www.competitivecyclist.com/frame/2009-pinarello-fp6-sram-force...

> >>> >> >>> | alejand...@google.com | 408-421-5158

>
> >>> >> >>> --
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> ...
>
> read more »

[Dave Blizard]

Yeah. Summit does demo days Sunday's on Canada Rd. I think they do
this 1x per month or so? Check w/ the shop. They have some sweet rigs
ready to roll.

I picked up a 2010 BMC SLC01 Pro Machine size 53 online. Sub 1000 gram
frame. I really like it. Happy to go over the details with you anytime.

Agreed regarding early bird crits. I participated in all but one last
spring. There were crashes in most of my races and even a few hit the
deck in the mentoring sessions.

-D
---------------------------------------------
Typed with thumbs on iPhone. Typo's don't count.

[Jason Thorpe]

On Aug 25, 2011, at 11:58 AM, djconnel wrote:

> I did a test ride at Pacific and took the Cervelo SLC over the GG
> bridge, up Conzelman, and back. The S2 is similar to the old SLC.
> The bridge was a good test because I got to see how the aero frame did
> in cross-winds. Conzelman tested climbing and descending.

That's almost exactly what I did (but descended the back side of Hawk Hill and returned via Bunker and the tunnel), but I also added a couple of loops in the Presidio.

Not a lot of shops had bikes in stock in my size (CAAD9 size 60, 59cm top tube w/ 11cm stem). I rode a friend's Tarmac (in my size), another friend's Cervelo Soloist carbon (model year before they renamed it S2, also in my size), a Scott CR1 (one size too small), a Felt F75 (one size too small - shop didn't have any F5s in stock at all, which is what I was interested in, but at least the geometry was the same), and the CAAD9 (one size too small).

> Sports Basement Presidio has both the CAAD-10 and the brand-new still-
> rare carbon Evo (both Cannondale). That would be a good carbon-Al
> comparison, since geometry is so close and the fork is similar. The
> bikes are almost indistinguishable other than material. I was
> surprised how good the CAAD-9 rode when I tested one @ Mikes @ 4th/
> Folsom.

The CAAD9 pretty much got me over my fear of aluminum's "harshness". Then again, no one does aluminum better than they do. The CAAD9 also has BB30, which was somewhat rare when I bought it. There are more frames w/ BB30 out there these days. I <3 BB30.

My '85 SR500, however, well that's a different story. "Vertical compliance" was not in Cannondale's vocabulary at the time. They get a pass in my book, though, because it was only the second or third year they made frames :-)

-- thorpej

[Jason Thorpe]

On Aug 25, 2011, at 11:27 AM, Alejandro Villarreal wrote:

Damn those BMCs are sexy though ;) 

If this is the overriding criteria, just get a Bosberg and be done with it :-)

    http://www.ritteracing.com/

-- thorpej

[Scott Crosby]

“My Bosberg has gotten me laid three times this week. And I'm married!”

-Lucky

[Peter Chang]

their crash replacement sounds pretty good too (for people planning ahead :-)

\p

[Judd Blair]

God I love those guys: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2oYddXY_vQ

[Jason Thorpe]

On Aug 25, 2011, at 1:42 PM, Scott Crosby wrote:

“My Bosberg has gotten me laid three times this week. And I'm married!”

Yah, not only are their bikes awesome, but they do not, in any way, take themselves at all too seriously.

    http://www.ritteracing.com/blog/videos/

-- thorpej

[Jason Thorpe]

On Aug 25, 2011, at 1:50 PM, Judd Blair wrote:

God I love those guys: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2oYddXY_vQ

This one's my favorite:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2Ha35KXI5U

Those Rapha videos are great and all, but the stuff these Ritte guys do is way more in line with my sensibilities :-)

(The Prolong ads are a riot, too...)

-- thorpej

[Chris Gaither]

If you go Ritte, there's a great new shop in North Beach that sells them called Cykel.

Chris

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[Judd Blair]

There's some Looks and Focuses in that price range too, I believe  - worth checking out http://www.bicycleodyssey.com/ in Sausalito as well. Tony is the man.

[Alejandro Villarreal]

Just test rode the R3 with Ultegra - what a bike. 

Quick little 4 mile loop up the back of stanford for some rollers and man did it feel good. Even in platforms/toe clips getting off the line felt way snappier than my old bike ('06 Allez - I realize that is like going from a honda to a ferrari, but still). Took it over rough parts of the backroads and it soaked up the bumps really well - no wonder they use this bike in the classics. I don't like the shimano hubs - they are totally quite and it freaks me out. Much prefer bigger pawls = loud = good, reminds you to keep pedaling. 

The only bummer is that they only have the 2011 white/blue model in my size; which means I'll probably find a shop that has the red/black paint. Nice guys though. I didn't have time to give the S2 a ride, might do that over the weekend but honestly, I think the R3 is going to be the bike for me. I don't know if the aero benefits are going to do anything, really. I like the idea of ligher + better long distance comfort. 

Next up: BMC, Cannondale (since SO MANY of you mentioned the caad10, I guess it wont hurt) and the S2. 

[faye steiner]

Nice! I hope when I am ready to upgrade I will be able to perceive
the differences like you do.

Which shop are you riding out of (out of curiosity for future reference)?

And who sells BMCs around here?

F

[Daniel Da Silva]

Alejandro, you have a fair share of worthy info and first hand advice,
as what you sought initially. To add to it all, I have a BMC SLT02
team machine - about 6 years old. I've taken obsessively good care of
it, and for good reason too!

I haven't looked back since! Absolutely happy with it in every way.
Yes I might be pretty biased here, but looking at the facts, it holds
truth. The manufacturing work is impeccable. The stiffness is great
for chasing down attacks. I feel it did compromise slightly on the
weight of the frame for the stiffness, but I just had to train on more
hills, and the new frames seem good weight wise. I feel extremely
comfortable on it. The frame design and materials used on mine are
slightly different to today's range, but I would still completely
respect and trust their workmanship and ingenuity in every regard.

A bike is a personal thing, and what works for me could be very
different for you. Best go out there, read a few reviews and get to
test ride as much as you can.

Good luck!

[Alejandro Villarreal]

I'm test rode it from Front of The Pack in Palo Alto.

Going to Wrench Science in Berkley and/or Freewheel in SF for the BMC.

[Rocky Ferraro]

Summit cycles does a demo on some weekends up at Canada Rd. It maybe a good time to do some comparisons just to get an idea.

On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 7:51 AM, Alejandro Villarreal <aleja...@google.com> wrote:

Hi,

I'm looking for some first-hand knowledge/experience* with a couple frames:

-2009/10 Cervelo S2 

-2010 Cervelo R3

-2011 BMC Roadracer SL-01

I plan to start getting involved in racing come the new year (wooo crit workshops), ride 80-130mi week, and prefer a stiffer/tighter frame. For my $3500 budget (compete bike), the above seem to be my best bet. 

I got some really good info from a cat 2 woman racer on BMC (she rides a Team Machine and in has been sponsored by them) but haven't heard much on Cervelos; so I'm opening this up to the collective wisdom of SF2G. 

*aka: bonus points and I'll take you more serious if you have ridden one or more of these frames :)

Thanks!

--

Alejandro Villarreal | Program Manager | aleja...@google.com | 408-421-5158

[Aaron Nathan]

They're hard as hell to find, but the Cannondale SuperSix is also
sweet. Not as crazy as the new Evo, but also a much better bargain
(plus it's us made if you care).

-aaron

[Alejandro Villarreal]

Well to close the loop on this. I picked this up from City Cycles in Marin:

After riding a bunch of bikes (R3, Giant TCR Advanced, Tarmac, Addict, and even the Cdale Evo - couldn't find a BMC to test to save my life) the S2 just felt the best. Even with pig-heavy wheels, Al cockpit and temporary SPD mountain pedals (read:heavy), I should be tipping the scales at around 16.6lbs. The inner weight-weenie in my is satisfied. Sub 16lbs is totally doable with a lighter wheelset, Look style pedals, and carbon odds and ends (spaces/stem/etc). 

I'm still dialing in fit and will probably end up lowering or flipping the stem. The Fiz'ik Arione is way more comfortable than I thought it would be - especially without a cutout. We'll see happy the taint is after tomorrow's maiden commute. Overall, I am extremely happy and can't wait to put in some real miles with this steed. 

Thanks everyone for your input/knowledge/suggestions/etc. 

Cheers,

[djconnel]

Reading on the web interface, no picture.

Coincidentally I test rode the Evo @ Sports Basement yesterday. I
thought it was really nice, despite being one size too small.
Slightly larger frame would have had less trail and handled a bit
quicker. Also I didn't like the wide & shallow bars. But the ride
was nice.

All trivial, since I'm not willing to take an expensive carbon frame
on Caltrain.... then on weekends I'm already used to riding the steel
bike so I generally out of inertia head out on that. I'll use my
carbon Fuji SL/1 for upcoming hillclimbs. But for hillclimbs things
subtle differences in handling are unimportant.

Dan

On Aug 29, 12:07 pm, Alejandro Villarreal <alejand...@google.com>
wrote:

[Alejandro Villarreal]

Thanks for the heads up. Image attached now. 

Yeah I wasn't a fan of the stock components on the Evo either. 

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