OT: do I need electric-assist on a long-tail cargo bike?

[Nathan Dushman]

I'm thinking about buying a kid-hauling bike, as my kids are getting too big for a Burley trailer. There's an Xtracycle Edgerunner 30D for sale at the moment on Craigslist. I took it for a test ride today and it's in good shape and rides smoothly. The downsides are price ($1800, more than I've paid for any other bike, but I can afford it) and no electric assist. I currently haul the kids around just fine (well, most of the time) without any assistance; do I really want a motor? Thanks for any opinions!

Nathan

[Darrin Ward]

i was initially electric assist hesitant for silly reasons. the
thought was, why do i need it? i can bike 50 miles anytime i want.
but i have really been enjoying lyft e-bikes for around the town errands.
need to fetch 25 lbs of thanksgiving turkey and duck, no problem take
a lyft e-bike (fit in the basket surprisingly well).

imho:
do you need? no
but will it make life just a bit easier? yes

On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 2:49 PM Nathan Dushman <nathan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm thinking about buying a kid-hauling bike, as my kids are getting too big for a Burley trailer. There's an Xtracycle Edgerunner 30D for sale at the moment on Craigslist. I took it for a test ride today and it's in good shape and rides smoothly. The downsides are price ($1800, more than I've paid for any other bike, but I can afford it) and no electric assist. I currently haul the kids around just fine (well, most of the time) without any assistance; do I really want a motor? Thanks for any opinions!
>
> Nathan
>

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[steve armijo]

I've got a Big Dummy I picked up from Eric A what feels like 100 years
ago. I rode it with kids and their bikes/gear up Bernal Hill many
times.

Probably around the time the childs started hitting around 60-70 lbs
of payload I finally gave in and got an electric assist.

It's great to be able to not have to deal with taking a car to pick
up/drop off from nearby camps or school. Got a 4th grader with a
sprained ankle who needs to get to school uphill with crutches and a
trumpet? No problem!

Downsides are it makes a heavy bike even heavier. It handles more like
a sack of wet pig even without cargo. OTOH the extra power offsets the
weight when it's time to go up.

I haven't done any additional hackery so it's a bit obnoxious when the
assist cuts out at 20MPH.

Overall it makes for some nice parent/kid time that probably otherwise
would have been spent looking for parking. I have fond memories of
straining to get up some hill and kids on the back of the bike
cheering. Electric isn't necessary but it has extended the useful
lifespan of the cargo bike for hauling kids around town.

On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 2:49 PM Nathan Dushman <nathan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

> I'm thinking about buying a kid-hauling bike, as my kids are getting too big for a Burley trailer. There's an Xtracycle Edgerunner 30D for sale at the moment on Craigslist. I took it for a test ride today and it's in good shape and rides smoothly. The downsides are price ($1800, more than I've paid for any other bike, but I can afford it) and no electric assist. I currently haul the kids around just fine (well, most of the time) without any assistance; do I really want a motor? Thanks for any opinions!
>
> Nathan
>

[Scott Crosby]

hey that's my bike!

I just sold it in fact. Xtracycles/Big Dummys are great, but, as Cordelia/Peter will attest, they tip over really easily and once they start going it's really hard to stop. the center of gravity is just too high. but I digress. if you do get one, 100% get the electric assist. one big reason is starting from a standstill at an intersection. you can quickly get up to traffic speed without inducing road rage in car drivers. and of course hills and heavy cargoes. if you do go electric, get the crank motor (Bosch). the hub motors are super lame by comparison.

Lider will probably chime in here, but after all of one day with my front-loader bakfiet-style Riese & Muller Load 75, I can say without hesitation that it is far, far superior than the Xtracycle-type design. I rode around yesterday with 120 lbs. of kids in the front and the handling wasn't noticeably different once rolling. and the full-suspension makes for a positively dreamy '70s Cadillac Eldorado-esque ride, only less wallowing. they are the price of a decent used Honda Civic but are a lot easier to park and no DMV...

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[Yuanyu Chen]

Have you considered a RadWagon? They're around the same price but electric.

I've never tried either Xtracycle or RadWagons but electric cargo bikes are awesome. I think if you want to keep hauling kids as they get bigger, or if you want your kids' other caretakers to also be able to haul them, or if you want to give another adult a ride, then electric will definitely win there.

Also in terms of price, comparing the cost of an e-cargo bike to any other bike you own just isn't fair. The correct comparison would be to any other car you've purchased.

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--

Yuanyu Chen

[Christine Ryan]

I definitely have a bias toward buying an ebike from a shop (after working for a bit at The New Wheel), so take this advice with a grain of salt, but I would say that although Radwagon seems to make good bikes, you have to deal with them directly, which could be a problem if you needed service on the motor. (This happened to Eliot's sister--she had to remove, pack it up, and send it back.) Maybe Rad is working with local service providers now--not sure. If so, that'd solve that problem. 

The nice thing about dealing with a local shop is that it can just swap out the problematic part (which, often, can be the actual motor--even with a reliable company such as Bosch) and get you back on the road again w/o waiting for the warranty process to be complete. 

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[Anand Mandapati]

For Bay Area folks, Rad Bikes now has a physical store in Berkeley. I owned a first generation RadWagon and had the same center of gravity problem Scott mentioned, though the 4th gen is much lower to the ground like a Tern GSD. I had no problems with the RadWagon in the year and a half I owned it though so never had to deal with service. 

I replaced it with a Madsen bucket bike and love it, despite the ridiculous weight (almost 100lbs with motor and battery). Definitely not as smooth a ride as an R&M or Urban Arrow but more natural than one of those. I’d probably buy a RadWagon again if I didn’t have an cargo ebike right now but I’d miss the space of the Madsen. Easy to carry 2 kids plus their bikes, scooters, backpacks, etc. I’ve even hauled my wife along with my 2 kids in the Madsen and only struggled at intersections. 

-anand

On Dec 1, 2021, at 09:03, Christine Ryan <crya...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Patrick Lea]

About 6 months ago I was looking and feel like I found an extracycle for $1000, which I almost bought but with limited safe storage space I went with the Tern GSD because it fits inside and into elevators. The e-bike part is great but I ride about 50% of the time with it off. I feel like the big difference is the speed. So when I am going places like daycare with some time constraints I use more assist but headed home especially at the end of the day I usually have it off. It is very slightly uphill leaving my apartment as well. If I had secure garage storage for the bike I would get a bakfiet-style Riese & Muller Load 75 or something similar. Especially with a preschooler. Give him more space, be able to see him and not have things drop to the street or the drive train like banana peels.

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[Christine Ryan]

That's good to know re Rad's Berkeley store/service center! They also are building out a network of mobile support, it looks like, which is great.

One other caveat re rear-hub drive bikes (which Rad's are): they tend not to be as good on our very steep hills as a mid-drive. (I've ridden a top-of-the-line Stromer, which had a rear-hub motor, side by side with a customer on an ostensibly lower-powered mid-drive bike up the steep part of Nevada in Bernal, and the poor Stromer pooped out before the top, whereas the cheaper mid-drive just kept spinning on up.) I believe that's why Xtracycle went with Bosch mid-drives eventually, after starting out with BionX rear hubs...

[Anand Mandapati]

Yes, I bought a used Madsen that had a BionX rear hub conversion done by Warm Planet Bikes and the motor and battery are petering out now. I plan to replace it with a mid-drive motor for the exact reasons you state. With the rear hub, I can’t go up any significant hills with even just the kids and if my wife is on the bike, even flat intersection stops/starts are slow and dicey. If anyone has experience with a conversion, I’d be happy to get advice. 

-anand

On Dec 1, 2021, at 09:48, Christine Ryan <crya...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Christine Ryan]

Stay tuned....... (that is, keep an eye on Wirecutter).

[Dave Blizard]

Just splurged and got the R&M Multicharger a few months ago.. no bells and whistles like Rohloff hub, or fancy computer etc.. standard drive-train but did get the high speed Bosch motor 28mph cutoff. 

Test drove the Benno, Tern, R&M Load 75, etc.. but Multicharger was the one that worked best for the family and limited space that we have to store it. Tern was great but just don't like the tiny wheels!

Random thoughts

• You shift a lot with electric assist + heavy load. You need to start in easy gear to get full motor assist to kick in.
• Check gearing ratios.. I think that the standard cassette drive train might offer more gearing options vs. others.. but don't quote me on this.. I asked but never got a straight answer.
• I tried the Load 75 and IMHO it doesn't really fit larger kids. My son is 9 and really tall. He was all scrunched up in the bucket and the seat belts are useless for his size, they just didn't come close to fitting even when extended to the max. That being said.. the low center of gravity and weight capacity is quite awesome.
• Load 75 / Packster were just too big for storage inside the house and too wide and heavy to get down a few stairs into the basement. If we had a garage we may have considered a front loader / bucket style.
• I now always volunteer to pick up takeout, do grocery runs, etc.. it's really made small around town errands simple, easy (no sweating back up the hills to get home) and reinforces the reasoning "why would you ever use a car" to do this. It's hard not to gloat when pulling into Whole Foods.. passing all the cars that are queued up and waiting for spots.
• Electric assist still requires work. It's a misconception that it's just like a throttle and go. Bike weighs around 70lbs + Kid 60 lbs + backpack 5 lbs = Yes you need assist especially up hills. If you want a workout.. just dial it down from "Turbo" to "Eco" Mode.

If anyone wants to check it out or take it for a spin.. let me know. Also kudos to New Wheel as they provided me with lots of test ride sessions. Sadly I had to buy the bike in Portland (happened to find a demo model in stock and configured as I wanted). New Wheel they said earliest they could get me a bike was Feb 2022.

D

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[Andrew Stadler]

I thought we're not supposed to be reading Wirecutter right now!

> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sf2g/CAHTzOP5p%2BeTpv2YrS9Dt1dWf4--jPMOe2fH%3DOvsFGJZhV6RqrA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Christine Ryan]

Strike was over as of yesterday, I'm happy/relieved to say. (I'm management, but not involved in the negotiations--just hoping it all gets sorted out soon.)

[Anand Mandapati]

How do you find parking the wider bike at places like grocery stores. I’ve sometimes found no usable spots to park the Madsen, and even if I have, I’m nervous about leaving such an obviously expensive bike parked out of my sight, even with two locks. 

-anand

On Dec 1, 2021, at 10:42, Dave Blizard <daveb...@gmail.com> wrote:



[Brett Lider]

+100 to Crosby about the double-squish Load front-loader. I've had a toddler, 40 pound dog, and an adult in the box for short trips. Better if only 2 of those 3, but still possible. 

And with two batteries, you can even do ridiculous rides like these:

https://www.strava.com/activities/4305104207

https://www.strava.com/activities/6299201913

On Wed, Dec 1, 2021 at 12:42 PM Jeffrey Tong <tong.e...@gmail.com> wrote:

I own a Brompton folding bike, and I always keep it with me - it is like my appendage!

Bring your e-bike INTO the grocery store. 

If merchant says you can't bring it into the store - they risk losing you as a customer!

If they keep insisting you can't bring it in, they'll offer to lock up your bike somewhere. They WILL find a way to accommodate you - trust me!  The more cargo bikers come in and demand security, the more acceptable the solution. 

Benefit of a folding bike - you can use it as your grocery cart. Good thing is your bike basket/panniers tell you how many items you can buy in one trip.  If you can't accommodate, you simply put it back, and its time to check out!

Bottom line: DON'T SETTLE, AND DON'T EVER LOCK YOUR E-BIKE OUTSIDE!  

Jeffrey Tong, co-founder
www.ColinasCosteras.com
Community Wildlife Habitat

Sow the seeds of change
https://www.bonfire.com/store/colinas-costeras/

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[Scott Crosby]

ridiculously awesome you mean. yeah yesterday I rode quite a bit in thick traffic (roundabouts-o-rama, this being France) with these heavy boxes and hardly noticed the weight in the Load 75. seriously cool. but yes, as has been said, this bike is a car replacement, with car price, so it's not exactly what Mr. OP was asking about.

Nathan, I think you should be able to find an older Xtracycle/Big Dummy type rig, with crank motor, for $2-3k. $1800 seems like too much for a non-electrified one (I sold my old Xtracycle for $900 recently, with hub motor and fairly depleted battery, but I was in a hurry). and bear in mind the crank motor frames are not the same as the frames built for hub motors - the whole bottom bracket area is completely different, so if you wanted to upgrade an older Xtracycle, etc., you'd need a Bafang system or similar.

[Scott Crosby]

one other thing relevant to this and the garage security thread - there are some cool Airtag mounts available now that might provide a bit more security and peace of mind. I just installed one on my Load 75 that fits the bottle-cage hole pattern. Tile tags would accomplish the same thing I suppose and are not Apple-specific.

pretty slick and would take at least a little bit of time to find and deactivate by the thief, might be enough to recover the bike.

some info on the Airtag anti-stalking mechanism etc.: https://petapixel.com/2021/04/26/apple-airtags-anti-stalker-feature-explained-how-it-can-track-thieves/