OT: Legality of 2x280 route along Skyline?

[AdamTart]

Is the 2x280 route variation along Skyline legal?

Normally going along a highway is forbidden for bicycles, and a sign is typically posted near freeway entrances that says something like "Pedestrians Bicycles Motor-Driven Cycles Prohibited". (See attached r5-10a.gif image of sign.)

I did not see such a sign at the entrance to the first segment which bypasses the San Andreas Trail, and there is even a sign near the exit onto Larkspur which says "Bicycles must exit"[1]. The absence of the "prohibited" sign and the presence of this latter sign implies that the first segment is legal (right?).

For the second segment (the one that goes from Skyline/280 @ Hillcrest to Skyline/280 @ Trousdale and bypasses Sawyer Camp Trail), there *is* such a "prohibited" sign at the entrance, but it looks like the "bicycles" word is covered up[2]. (Looking back in Street View history shows it has been covered up since at least 2008.) There is also a difficult-to-read "Bicycles must exit" sign at the end which is graffiti-ed over[3], though looking back in Street View history clearly shows the sign's text[4]. Is it safe to assume that the sign at the entrance is "officially" allowing bicycles and the sign at the exit is just covered due to vandals? Or vice-versa..?

Thoughts?

-Adam

[1] https://www.google.com/maps/@37.599261,-122.423291,3a,29y,149.96h,86.73t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1swdCE-G3bcZbTEpp_VdJhJA!2e0

[2] https://www.google.com/maps/@37.58884,-122.412778,3a,19.2y,184.1h,87.05t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sGc-Ic6eyaPPtQUMOgSOSKQ!2e0

[3] https://www.google.com/maps/@37.58384,-122.406466,3a,15y,165.47h,86.25t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sWx4Ydxf5Epbv_2vjFrMR1Q!2e0

[4] https://www.google.com/maps/@37.583861,-122.406487,3a,15y,171.29h,87.04t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1sf0k48aKVyGR9ZlN3Fn05DA!2e0!5s2012-01

[Peter Colijn]

Yeah 2x280 is legal, 3x280 is not.

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[Peter Chang]

2014-08-13 10:58 GMT-07:00 AdamTart <adam...@gmail.com>:
> Is the 2x280 route variation along Skyline legal?

yes.

\p

[adam_]

Cool, thanks. I've never heard of 3x380 before. I presume this is the 3rd segment's entrance with the "prohibited" sign, right near Hayne Rd? https://www.google.com/maps/@37.54678,-122.372634,3a,15y,170.3h,88.13t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sXhqBF-EAbpuqe9pqWf-9FQ!2e0

[Peter Colijn]

Yeah also referred to (mostly be me) as the 'flyover', because it includes the bridge over the crystal springs dam.

[Adam Tart]

How much time does 2x280 save vs taking the trails?

[Peter Chang]

2014-08-13 11:15 GMT-07:00 Adam Tart <adam...@gmail.com>:
> How much time does 2x280 save vs taking the trails?

i think it's less of a time-saving thing (other than the flyover) but
less dealing w/ the meat slalom that are the trails (depending on when
you're going).

\p

[Jacky Schuler]

> meat slalom

This is my favoritest thing ever.

[Marcelo Vanzin]

On Wednesday, August 13, 2014 10:58:48 AM UTC-7, adam_ wrote:

Is the 2x280 route variation along Skyline legal?

Normally going along a highway is forbidden for bicycles, and a sign is typically posted near freeway entrances that says something like "Pedestrians Bicycles Motor-Driven Cycles Prohibited". (See attached r5-10a.gif image of sign.)

If you pay attention to those signs at the 2 legal 280 sections, you'll see that the "Bicycles" part is taped over. You'll also see signs saying "Bicycles must exit" at the next off-ramp, which implies that it was legal for bicycles to be on the road up to that point.

[Ted Ketai]

I think the first section saves a couple minutes at most. The second is probably actually a little longer than taking the trail since there's so much more climbing involved once you hit the rollers. It's probably a few minutes shorter than taking the other non-path route though.  

[Jason Thorpe]

> On Aug 13, 2014, at 12:22 PM, Ted Ketai <tke...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I think the first section saves a couple minutes at most. The second is probably actually a little longer than taking the trail since there's so much more climbing involved once you hit the rollers. It's probably a few minutes shorter than taking the other non-path route though.

Yah, but SCT is also a meat slalom, which is one reason I almost never use it.

The second 280 section is a faster way to get to Trousdale (and the Hillsborough Rollers) than wiggling through the residential streets, for sure.

-- thorpej

[Maxence Nachury]

> The second is probably actually a little longer than taking the trail since there's so much more climbing involved once you hit the rollers.

I couldn’t imagine SCT being faster that the second 280. That made me look back at my Strava tracks: unscientifically, from the entrance of SCT to the exit of SCT, it takes me 14 min using the 280 version and 19 min on the trail. Difference could be a bit less but not much.

The speeds that we hit on the Crystal Springs DH (easily >60 kph) are unthinkable on SCT and the distance of the 280 version is shorter.

[Maciek Wojciechowski]

I think both save distance but more importantly they allow you to hammer all the time so you gain time and don't loose the momentum - you can hammer all the way from the entry to SAT to the end of rollers

[Dave Borowitz]

On Wed Aug 13 2014 at 10:58:55 AM AdamTart <adam...@gmail.com> wrote:

Is the 2x280 route variation along Skyline legal?

Normally going along a highway is forbidden for bicycles, and a sign is typically posted near freeway entrances that says something like "Pedestrians Bicycles Motor-Driven Cycles Prohibited". (See attached r5-10a.gif image of sign.)

I did not see such a sign at the entrance to the first segment which bypasses the San Andreas Trail, and there is even a sign near the exit onto Larkspur which says "Bicycles must exit"[1]. The absence of the "prohibited" sign and the presence of this latter sign implies that the first segment is legal (right?).

For the second segment (the one that goes from Skyline/280 @ Hillcrest to Skyline/280 @ Trousdale and bypasses Sawyer Camp Trail), there *is* such a "prohibited" sign at the entrance, but it looks like the "bicycles" word is covered up[2]. (Looking back in Street View history shows it has been covered up since at least 2008.) There is also a difficult-to-read "Bicycles must exit" sign at the end which is graffiti-ed over[3], though looking back in Street View history clearly shows the sign's text[4]. Is it safe to assume that the sign at the entrance is "officially" allowing bicycles and the sign at the exit is just covered due to vandals? Or vice-versa..?

IANAL but considering the current state of both signs, if I got pulled over on one of these two sections, I would argue with the cop on the spot, and argue with the cop in court, and expect to win.

 

Thoughts?

-Adam

[1] https://www.google.com/maps/@37.599261,-122.423291,3a,29y,149.96h,86.73t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1swdCE-G3bcZbTEpp_VdJhJA!2e0

[2] https://www.google.com/maps/@37.58884,-122.412778,3a,19.2y,184.1h,87.05t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sGc-Ic6eyaPPtQUMOgSOSKQ!2e0

[3] https://www.google.com/maps/@37.58384,-122.406466,3a,15y,165.47h,86.25t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sWx4Ydxf5Epbv_2vjFrMR1Q!2e0

[4] https://www.google.com/maps/@37.583861,-122.406487,3a,15y,171.29h,87.04t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1sf0k48aKVyGR9ZlN3Fn05DA!2e0!5s2012-01

--

[Peter Colijn]

Yeah I think there is a small difference but not more than a few mins. I am usually 16 min on SCT and 12-13 on the 280+rollers. I just decide based on my mood.

[djconnel]

See 1977 here:

https://www.sfbike.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/SFBicycleCoalition_Timeline_small.pdf

Could use the same for part 3, even if it gives me the heebie-jeebies and I've not done it yet.  I quite like the first two, however.

[Peter Colijn]

Are you confusing SCT with SAT? I'm not sure how you would do SCT + trousdale otherwise...

On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 3:09 PM, Marcello Pedersen <mped...@google.com> wrote:

I looked at this a while back when there was a bunch of crap on 280. 2x280 is .4 miles shorter but 30 ft less climbing. My best time on 2x280 is 3 mins faster than SCT+Trousdale:

SCT + Trousdale 3.9mi Distance 1% Avg Grade 459ft Lowest Elev 593ft Highest Elev 135ft 17 Attempts By 1 Person

Rank Name Date Speed HR Power VAM Time

1 Marcello Pedersen Dec 3, 2013 18.6mi/h 147bpm 266W - 12:34

2x280 3.5mi Distance 1% Avg Grade 540ft Lowest Elev 705ft  Highest Elev 165ft Elev Difference 67 Attempts By 1 Person

Rank Name Date Speed HR Power VAM Time

1 Marcello Pedersen May 6, 2014 22.5mi/h 163bpm 301W - 9:26

Marcello Pedersen | Google Enterprise | mped...@google.com | 415 508 6800

[Ryan Anderson]

When I've been with groups that split up, we've tended to arrive at the end of SCT very close together, no more than a few minutes apart. So it's not really a "speed" choice, but more of a "Does 280 scare you more than the unpredictable people obstacles?" (or variations on that).

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[Andrew Stadler]

Somewhere in the back of my mind a voice is saying, "it's legal to
ride on the freeway when there are no alternatives".

Based on this, is it possible that the 280 sections are technically
legal *only* when the parallel trail sections are closed (e.g. for
maintenance) ?

[Patrick Lea]

Caltran does not seem to say that. Seems to say you are allowed to ride on a freeway unless otherwise marked. Most are otherwise marked. Actually surprised that ~25% are open to bicycles.
http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/paffairs/faq/faq67.htm

[Andrew Stadler]

That's great to know - thanks.

[Scott Crosby]

You can also ride about 7 miles of I-5 thru Camp Pendleton in San Diego/OC for the reason Andy mentions - no real alternative.

But as for time savings, 280(3) is the winner and still champion. 33+ mph at about -2% is glorious, and all the more so as you are flying high above the damn hill you gotta climb otherwise. Dan, you gotta try it. The short time and small relative speed diff vs cars makes it a true pleasure. It's perfectly safe, and Colijn is KOM, btw.

[matthew kenaston]

I still love the reference on a thread a few months ago to 2x280 as safe SEX and 3x as unsafe SEX. Damned if I don't giggle every time I drive past the 3rd leg ... er, unintended pun

[Marcello Pedersen]

oops yes. 

I adjust the segments to end at end of Crystal springs and  create a new one, SAT+SCT. I was always curious about what is fastest:

SAT + SCT --  8.8mi Distance -0% Avg Grade 217ft Lowest Elev 520ft Highest Elev 303ft Elev Difference  20 Attempts By 1 Person

Rank Name Date Speed HR Power VAM Time

1 Marcello Pedersen Sep 6, 2013 22.1mi/h 149bpm 211W - 23:55

SAT + Trousdale -- 8.2mi Distance -0% Avg Grade 332ft Lowest Elev 708ft Highest Elev 376ft Elev Difference 15 Attempts By 1 Person

Date Speed HR Power VAM Time

1 Marcello Pedersen Feb 19, 2014 22.4mi/h 156bpm 265W - 22:01

2x280 -- 7.9mi Distance -0% Avg Grade 388ft Lowest Elev 780ft Highest Elev 391ft Elev Difference 67 Attempts By 1 Person

Rank Name Date Speed HR Power VAM Time

1 Marcello Pedersen May 13, 2014 23.7mi/h 157bpm 292W - 19:56

[Matthew Hiller]

Ya know, they should have made the Dolan Bridge a legit bicycle detour when the Crystal Springs dam bridge closed. Down Crystal Springs road and back up Polhemus is insultingly inconvenient.

[Warren Stringer]

I actually like the meat slalom. Sometimes the meat says hello. Sometimes I wish the meat a good morning back. I have come to think of the meat as my erstwhile friends. 

On Wednesday, August 13, 2014 11:36:03 AM UTC-7, Jacquelyn Schuler wrote:

> meat slalom

This is my favoritest thing ever.

 

[Peter Colijn]

Yeah, I've been meaning to try to figure that out. Unfortunately, to "legalize" it for bikes they would probably have to replace some grates. Because that's more work than putting some tape on a sign it could be tough...

On Aug 17, 2014 5:38 AM, "Matthew Hiller" <matthew...@gmail.com> wrote:

Ya know, they should have made the Dolan Bridge a legit bicycle detour when the Crystal Springs dam bridge closed. Down Crystal Springs road and back up Polhemus is insultingly inconvenient.