SkyTools4

[Vishal Kasliwal]

How do you guys feel about SkyTools4.Visual Pro? I picked it up yesterday and have been at it since. So far, I'm impressed, but does anyone here use it on a regular basis? Any top tips on how to get the most out of it?

Best,

Vishal

[Alex]

That Tool is considered to be the highest end and ultimate Observations Planner on the market, though for a desktop/laptop only. I have hand-picked many important features and ideas from it for our DSO Planner Android app. We are supporting importing plans files directly only from ST and SkySafari, as the former is the best within the "PRO" community, while the latter is the most popular among beginners. However, I haven't used ST for like a decade already. Preferring the ultimate mobility of a handheld solution while preserving my darkness adaptation at the same time, which our DSO Planner is totally covering for me right at the eyepiece.

Great purchase no doubt. For the tips, as with any serious tool there is no limit to a particular usage flow, so just read its docs at least once through (there are too many non-trivial concepts involved to rely solely on a few third party tips) and you should be able to work out your own perfect fit night planning flow in no time. Then just gradually learn more of the advanced concepts provided.

----
Alex.

[Vishal Kasliwal]

Thanks for the quick response Alex. May I ask what the name of your app is? I've tried to stay away from relying on the phone when stargazing - I dread the idea of realizing that I have no battery left for the drive home, but it's good to have a backup in case i don't have time to work through ST4. 

How accurate are the ST4 difficulty guidelines? My first impression is that the guidelines are very fair.

Vishal

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[John Pierce]

On Wed, Apr 14, 2021 at 3:58 PM Vishal Kasliwal <vishal....@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks for the quick response Alex. May I ask what the name of your app is? I've tried to stay away from relying on the phone when stargazing - I dread the idea of realizing that I have no battery left for the drive home, but it's good to have a backup in case i don't have time to work through ST4. 

USB charger in car solves the drive home problem, and a USB battery pack solves the battery life on site problem.

--

-john r pierce

  recycling used bits in santa cruz

[Alex]

Vishal, I have mentioned the app name above it's "DSO Planner" for Android, there is a free version to take a look at its basic concepts. The app's Wiki (docs) is at the http://dsoplanner.com

And you are 100% right about the typical phone limits. That's why I have another dedicated smartphone to use at the telescope. With disabled networking functions the typical battery lasts for several nights easily. And then definitely what John is saying: portable car jump starting battery for the peace of mind if you are used to charging the phone in the car (typical for folks to accidentally discharge the car battery because of that urban habit). And some inexpensive powerbank at least tripling your phone battery capacity, is all you need to rejuice a phone for a typical weekend long range outing and then some. Try that with the laptop! But also totally doable nowadays. E.g. I'm also driving with the 150W folding solar panel and 500Wh powerbank for it with a 300 Watt 110V inverter integrated. No single concern about the electricity anymore, except for a lightning strike probability :)))). And I'm driving shy Subaru Forester, not a Monster Truck like John :))))

Though a dedicated phone (a second-hand high end would be perfect, my ancient Galaxy Note 4 still kicking perfectly well) is even better as you can outfit it with the dedicated night-mode friendly software, dark system themes, wipe power hungry and annoying popup apps, shield it in the protective case with the red film insert, and definitely don't mind too much if it dyes on you when exposed to deadly "waterboarding" elements of the primitive camping night :)))), as you should still have the normal phone stashed in some safe place for emergency communications (I put mine to the locked glove compartment in the car to avoid even thinking to reach for it in the night's mess semi-blindly). Then repair it as old phones' spare parts are now dirt cheap even from Amazon.

----
Alex

[Jeff Gortatowsky]

I have been using ST since V2. Garbage.

The author thinks he knows UI design. 

He knows as much about UI design as testing C++ code (I can crash his apps within 30 minutes or less). 

Layer after layer dialog boxes. Often circular enough to KNOW it's gonna crash. If you do software engineering you know what I mean.

Nothing follows CUA designs. It operates like no other Windows program, again because the author (an astronomer) thinks he knows better.

And if you criticize the program on his forum, you are attacked. 

If you decide to get it, don't use it to store logs (or at least no the primary storage).  They are in a binary format that gets corrupted at the drop of hat. 

Why do I keep paying to upgrade? Because hope springs eternal. And I am an astro software engineer/junkie.

Jeff Gortatowsky, Redondo Beach, CA | Twitter: JeffGortatowsky | Yahoo: indanapt
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/jeffgortatowsky

"Skepticism is a provisional approach to claims. It is the application of reason to any and all ideas — no sacred cows allowed. In other words, (science and) skepticism is a method, not a position." - M. Shermer

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[Vishal Kasliwal]

The UI is indeed crude and I've already crashed the program once. But I love how it makes the tedious business of planning an observing session so easy.... I'm willing to overlook the lack of polish. It's not bad though for the effort of a single individual.

Vishal

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[Peter Natscher]

Does anyone use AstroPlanner?  How does it compare to ST4? The screen shots of it's GUI looks similar.

[Christopher Kelly]

Hey Peter, I have recently reverted to Astroplanner after a 15 year foray into the iPad and Sky Safari and lack of a suitable mac laptop.

I can't compare it to Sky Tools, but the level of features is mind boggling.  You can download a free copy that includes M, NGC and the Bright Star Atlas but it takes off when you pay the $45 license fee and get access to other stellar catalogues and pay a bit more for the Hubble GSC, all as searchable and diplayable catalogues.  

One feature I am really looking forward to trying out is the artificial horizon template to map out the gaps in the trees at my house, and get object visibility ... I presume that ST4 has this too.  Another feature I like is the dedicated FOV tab, which in addition to being matched to your telescope/eyepiece combos (all downloadable from the web) you can dial in the limiting mag to what is visible in the eyepiece on that given night, which is good for object verification.   Its seems much better in FOV than trying to do the same in Sky Safari where changing the FOV causes as change in limiting magnitude.

I can't wait to get back into the field with it. 

Clears

Chris

[Christopher Kelly]

Ouch....well Sky Tools had better be the best, it is slick but its expensive!,  And it is Windows only.   

I just want to plan and record my outings I'll probably stick to AP.

Chris

[Alex]

Hey, Christopher.

For the FOV view I have invented my own way, which I've called "Stars Boldness" and believe it works way better than setting some limiting magnitude per FOV (which you could too in DSO Planner). In a nutshell: after settling on the EP FOV ring you can open the menu and invoke the Boldness feature. It will provide you with two handles on a track at the bottom of the chart's screen. Just moving them left or right with your finger you can change the size of stars disks displayed on the screen to match your ID goals most efficiently any given moment. E.g. when the "real thing" in the EP is overwhelming, you can make faint stars from UCAC4 almost disappear on the chart while brighter stars looking more prominent and with the easy to see sizing gradient representing brightness differences. Or instead, you can make all stars look as a more uniform dots field only with very bright stars enlarged (using the latter mode often as at the deep darkness adaptation it's hard to distinguish even stars disks on the chart  not only their sizes, so just a swipe and they are all really large and well visible).

For the "User horizon" it's actually quite a tedious task to represent your horizon truly for the algorithm to calculate something from it. I recall Safari has that but I have my doubt it's not just a decoration ruining your darkness adaptation. If you learn constellations it's always easy to tell if your target is visible or not at the moment. So in DSO Planner we implemented only simple interpolated curve overlay for the user horizon so you could draw walls obstructing the large portion of the sky to help figuring when you target appear from- or disappear behind it.

Not 100% sure about your "dedicated FOV tab", but in DSO Planner we have the FOV column where you can select several fixed FOV suzes of the chart's screen, which is followed by the fingers pinch to zoom as well. As we believe the arbitrary zoom level is what ruining many star charts as reliable FOV content ID tools. Chart zooms must be 100% reproducible when you zoom in or out otherwise you might confuse a similar stars configuration but with wrong zoom easily. And yes, we have a mode to set not only the limiting magnitude for every catalog you want to be displayed in the FOV but also the FOV boldness, mirroring, and rotation (upside down) state (great when you are moving from a finder's FOV to the main EP FOV).

Regarding the Web based scope/EP combo settings that's too amateurish :))) First off, there might be no Internet in the field. But most importantly, your actual FOV might differ from "theoretical" or published manufacturer specs. So I'm always meticulously measuring the true FOV of my new EPs in the field using the sky distance measurement feature of DSO Planner. Or you can use the "star drifting" method for that.

Cheers!
-----
Alex

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[Jeff Gortatowsky]

Anytime I can cost the author of SkyTools a sale. like Obsession, it is a good day!!

Astroplanner can not chart. Or not really. And no Alex I am not gonna take the "circles / you can't starhop bait". :D

Never heard of DSO planner.... 

SkyTools IS nice. If only the author 

A) knew anything about C++ coding for reliability, 

B) let someone who knows UI design design the UI,

C) used open standards for things like my precious logs, 

D) gave support that was better than "You don't know what you are doing, my way is right", or "prove it", or the EVER CLASSIC "It works on my computer!" (we software engineers love that one!) etc...

[Alex]

Hey, Jeff!
Not sure what you mean about "circles bait"? :) Our other thread about your Telrad circles chaining? :))))
DSO Planner is Android exclusive. We made it together with a friend in 2009 frustrated with the mobile market offerings. Then decided to share the joy with the public around 2012. I'm still having no single doubt it's the best pocket assistant app on the planet for a seasoned DSOs visual observing enthusiast. It's constantly evolving and we have around 50K installs worldwide (around 1K paid users). But it's hardly for newbies or candy toys lovers for sure :)))) That might change very soon though, but not in the simplifying way at all ;)

[Christopher Kelly]

Uh huh...yep Astroplanner can't really chart.  I use the stupid iPad for that, or Sky Safari on the Macbook.   Astroplanner can link to Carte Du Ciel (free) if one must have to have the planning app integrated with the charting app.  I have both charting apps running, but have not yet got back out under real field conditions since I recently recovered Astroplanner so we'll see how it goes.    But $45 (+ $35 Sky Safari) vs $180 for a visual guy like me is a fair price.  Skytools is sweet looking and I'm sure its good but I know how to use Sky Safari and Astroplanner, so I too have cost a sale of Skytools.

As for a big dob in my future, its going to be a home built (OK I will buy the mirrors) dual hexapod Arduino enabled 30 inch binocular dob someday, plus a spot in a co-op stargazing community.   But never an Obsession either.

Clears!!!!

Chris    

[Richard]

“ But never an Obsession either.”

I love my 18” Obsession. What’s up with the hate?

Richard

[Vishal Kasliwal]

Found it and picked it up - thanks for working on it. I'll dig through it over the next few days. Can you add teh Vixen HR & Takahashi TOE lines of EPs to the app?

Best,

Vishal

On Wed, Apr 14, 2021 at 5:06 PM Alex <alex.k...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Vishal Kasliwal]

In ST4, you have a few options to do a local horizon. You can either supply a text file with a list of longitudes and horizon values, or.... you can hook your scope up to ST4 and record the local horizon by pointing your scope around. Needless to say, I haven't tried that with my manual dob.

Best,

Vishal

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[Alex]

Vishal, the EPs database is 100% under your control. You can add/remove whatever you want including noname, fake EPs and CCDs. Some hand work indeed, but as I've mentioned above the accuracy of the chart is the king for the ID, so measuring your particular EPs true FOV is well worth the effort. I recall we had some EP's database hardcoded for newbies convenience, but honestly that's just for proforma :)))) But if you are desperate, just provide me with the exact CSV list of what you want to have to avoid any confusion as I'm not familiar with those.

For the horizon - my thought exactly (tedious for what it gives in return), so we support only the Alt/Az list of keypoints custom horizons in a file (I'm simply checking on the chart what stars are near the edge of the adjucent building as seen from my balcony, and roughly approximating the framing - totally sufficient). Though with the RMDF pointer in development (it works on any scope) it might be now possible to add a functional "sky scanner" as well, but no promises yet. It's still not trivial to implement even if only from the UX perspective (because users are not professional surveyors).
----
Alex

[Jeff Gortatowsky]

Worst purchase ever. $15,000 worth of bad design. Or at least $3000 of it.

Optics are great... The rest is garbage. Should have gotten the 25 f/4 

Live and learn

Jeff Gortatowsky, Redondo Beach, CA | Twitter: JeffGortatowsky | Yahoo: indanapt
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/jeffgortatowsky

"Skepticism is a provisional approach to claims. It is the application of reason to any and all ideas — no sacred cows allowed. In other words, (science and) skepticism is a method, not a position." - M. Shermer

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[Christopher Kelly]

Was that an Obsession?   Do tell

Chris

[Jeff Gortatowsky]

It's all on cloudy nights. 

If you want to talk via zoom or something, let me know.

I would not by a UC anything if you can buy a Classic. Right now I'd trade this load UC-22 for a loaded 20 in a heartbeat.

Meet you halfway in Paso Robles

You give me a 20 (f5) or 25 (f4) with a servocat, I give you a 22 UC with the same.

No money. Straight across.

Jeff Gortatowsky, Redondo Beach, CA | Twitter: JeffGortatowsky | Yahoo: indanapt
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/jeffgortatowsky

"Skepticism is a provisional approach to claims. It is the application of reason to any and all ideas — no sacred cows allowed. In other words, (science and) skepticism is a method, not a position." - M. Shermer

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[Jeff Gortatowsky]

I meant to change the subject. So many people, like everything else I post, want to shoot the messenger. Especially when it comes to vendors. 

-----------

Jeff Gortatowsky, Redondo Beach, CA | Twitter: JeffGortatowsky | Yahoo: indanapt
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/jeffgortatowsky

[Richard]

Ah. I have an 18” Obsession classic, Jeff. Might be overbuilt, but works beautifully.

Richard

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 16, 2021, at 9:11 PM, Jeff Gortatowsky <jeff.gor...@gmail.com> wrote:



[John Pierce]

Indeed, I have a 20 f/5 classic, no encoders or motors, just push n drool.   Someone in SCAC has the UC22, what a wobbly mess.

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[Jeff Gortatowsky]

It's a mess if you have PAID for the drive. 

I love tracking down faint fuzzies. Tracking down Galaxy Groups is a zone of avoidance pursuit. 

However I kinda like finding obscure PNebs. Howeve my meat computer is not as good as Kent Wallace's!!!

So I would starhop in the Milky Way. I would do okay with a Laptop and lots-o-stars on the map. As I studied the map, the stars of course would drift, and sometimes I'd get lost trying to get back to where I was even knowing that direction. (Yes Alex I am sure I suck as a starhopper for 20+ years :p) Sorry I could not resist. :D

The whole idea was not necessarily to GOTO a stellar 14th mag pneb, most junk (especially the UC22's design) is just not that good. But get it close. And while I looked at the map, to figure out HOW CLOSE just stay where I was.

That was it. I didn't care that much about goto. Yeah it can make nights more productive. Unless it jams to the point you can do nothing until daylight. Then you depend on the charity of friends that have their own designs or Classic like designs.

Bad design, and the dentist is making 100 more right now.

Jeff Gortatowsky, Redondo Beach, CA | Twitter: JeffGortatowsky | Yahoo: indanapt
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/jeffgortatowsky

"Skepticism is a provisional approach to claims. It is the application of reason to any and all ideas — no sacred cows allowed. In other words, (science and) skepticism is a method, not a position." - M. Shermer

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[Peter Natscher]

Yes, we have a lot of intelligent members in this group but some still seem to be missing something upstairs.  This is a topic for SkyTools4 guys!!!!!!

[Vishal Kasliwal]

Definitely feeling the random crashes and hangs - Jeff's right about how unstable it is. Overall though, ST4 is very useful... I'm planning the May 8th party at LSA. 

Best,

Vishal

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