Pinnacles NP -- West Entrance: NP Police Excercising Everyone To Exit By 8pm

[Peter Natscher]

Last night, David Coper and I along with three other nighttime astro visitors were abruptly ordered to stop our nighttime activity in the park's west entrance parking lot by a NP police man driving in at 11:30pm.  He arrive suddenly with high beam vehicle lights blinding us and with a loud megaphone ordering all of us to come to his vihicle along with our id's.  He announced to us that we we in violation with the NP's rules of not leaving the park by the posted 8pm exit time.  We told him that we have had a verbal agreement with the park for many years to be here after park public hours and do astro-activities all night, leaving by early morning.  He replied that this informal agreement doesn't matter anymore and the park will be policed daily to make sure all visitors leave the park by 8pm.  The entrance gate is still broken remaining open all night so it will be interesting to see how the park will keep people out after 8pm.  I am going to contact the park's east-side main office and talk to someone about this incident and if we can continue somehow to have access to the park during the night. Maybe a contract is required, something written onm paper for a new agreement.  I know that Lassen NP requires nighttime astro-use intentions need to be file with the office ahead of time per nighttime daily use so that they know who is in the parking lots during the night.  NP's work this way. For now, no one is allowed to remain in the park's west side after 8pm.  I'm not sure how this affects the east side of the park concerning astro-activity after 8pm.

[Vishal Kasliwal]

Is this the same guy that hassled us a year ago about not setting up on the tarmac at the Peaks View area?

Why did he want your IDs? To see if anyone's illegal? I wonder if non-citizens should begin carrying proof of immigration status on jaunts like these...

Best,

Vishal

On Thu, Jun 26, 2025 at 9:40 AM Peter Natscher <natsch...@gmail.com> wrote:

Last night, David Coper and I along with three other nighttime astro visitors were abruptly ordered to stop our nighttime activity in the park's west entrance parking lot by a NP police man driving in at 11:30pm.  He arrive suddenly with high beam vehicle lights blinding us and with a loud megaphone ordering all of us to come to his vihicle along with our id's.  He announced to us that we we in violation with the NP's rules of not leaving the park by the posted 8pm exit time.  We told him that we have had a verbal agreement with the park for many years to be here after park public hours and do astro-activities all night, leaving by early morning.  He replied that this informal agreement doesn't matter anymore and the park will be policed daily to make sure all visitors leave the park by 8pm.  The entrance gate is still broken remaining open all night so it will be interesting to see how the park will keep people out after 8pm.  I am going to contact the park's east-side main office and talk to someone about this incident and if we can continue somehow to have access to the park during the night. Maybe a contract is required, something written onm paper for a new agreement.  I know that Lassen NP requires nighttime astro-use intentions need to be file with the office ahead of time per nighttime daily use so that they know who is in the parking lots during the night.  NP's work this way. For now, no one is allowed to remain in the park's west side after 8pm.  I'm not sure how this affects the east side of the park concerning astro-activity after 8pm.

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[Mark Wagner]

Mist likely.  Remember gimme mentioning "the park being aware of the shenanigans" at PW.

Gotta love authoritarians.

[Vishal Kasliwal]

Even if we have a written agreement, whom is the agreement with? TAC isn't a formal organization and there is no formal notion of membership. Perhaps it is time that we make TAC a formal organization with membership, even if it is just so that we can negotiate observing rights for members?

Vishal

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[Peter Natscher]

I phoned the Pinnacles East Main Office and was referred to the Chief Ranger, Patrick Kneimar (831) 744-2376, to explain to him what we have been doing in the park at night and the incident that occurred last night with the Park police man.  He will talk to that officer today and explain to him that we visitors can stay in the park over night to astro-activity (not camping) as long as we arrive before closing time at 8pm. He says the Park's current visitor policy is that whomever enters the Park before closing time at 8pm can remain in the Park during the night and exit anytime during the night or the following day.  The gate at the west entrance should be closing by 8pm and reopening at 7:30am the following morning but it is still is broken and remains open. I suppose that's why the Park police man is coming by for a visit to check on the visitors who enter after 8pm illegally. The gate will be repaired so that it closes at 8pm to block any new entrants.  Patrick also mentioned importantly that as long as you set up your gear in a safe 'off-road' location, like in a parking lot space, you are ok to remain in the Park. While set up in a parking lot, do not block the parking lot vehicle drive-through space in the lot. Vehicles need to drive through a parking lot safely at night without colliding with telescopes or people. Park only in a single parking space for your vehicle and possibly another single space for your equipement.  He also mentioned that there are nighttime visitors who actually set up their astro-gear 'in the middle' of the main Park road way or on the side of the main road with little space for vehicles to drive by and this interfers with traffic presenting a danger to people and equipment at night when visibility is poor.  One issue: the Park has alway mandated that Pinnnacles -- West Side is not to be used for any kind of camping, and this even includes sleeping in your vehicle. Many of us who have stayed in the Park over night have grabbed a few hours of sleep (3-6am) in our vehicles before packing up by 8am but even this short sleeping is prohibited. The past resident rangers we've had didn't notice this napping during the early morning hours but should the new police man drive in for a visit at 4am, he would order you to pack up and leave the park immediately?

[Peter Natscher]

Yeah, he was full of adrenolin, young guy right out of the military. He said this was for our safety: there are rattle snakes, entrants who might cause trouble for us.  Better we leave. I haven't seen a snake there in ten years. Wasn't the time or place to argue, just speedily pack up after only 1-1/2 hours of observing.  He was certainly packing. Looked like Commando Swartzenagger.  So, this is a 'public' NP according to the new national administration in DC?

[Mark Wagner]

Not the same guy.  PE ranger was 30+ years at the park.

Great you got clarification, and hope the new ranger hears about it.  I will tell you at PE that ranger told us we're not allowed to occupy parking lots with our equipment at night.  So, maybe check that too?

Mark

"Always take the scenic route."

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[Vishal Kasliwal]

Yea, let's get clarification on that - should we use parking spots or set-up off the tarmac? Can the Chief Ranger, Patrick Kneimar please notify all rangers of the policy? Would it be good to call him directly and notify him every time we intend to observe?

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[Mark Wagner]

Jamie and Peter (and Dave) are the PW regulars I know of on this list.  My suggestions were thoughts and informational only.  I'd rather leave the "doing" up to them.

Mark

"Always take the scenic route."

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[Brad Templeton]

Yikes.  I certainly wouldn't want to have to stay awake until dawn and drive home for 2 hours without sleep.     I plan to get a trailer some day, and my ideal would be to be able to bring it, and catch a few hours of sleep in it, not really camping, just sleeping but I am sure it would meet their definition of camping.   How is Coe on this?

[Peter Natscher]

No, don't contact Patrick each time you plan to go to PinnWest.  Simply arrive before 8pm and enjoy the evening at will. That's the Park's general visitor policy.   Park in one parking space per vehicle with vehicle and telescope in one space would be the best way to adhear to Park's parking policy.  There should still be enough room for vehicles to drive by safely in the middle of the parking lot.

[Daniel Vancura]

I went to Pinnacles West back in April. Up until now I had just assumed that I did something wrong at the time, overlooking a need to call or email someone - but when I was there I was also approached by one of the rangers who told me I technically shouldn't be there after 8PM. My experience with them at the time was a positive one. He said he had no issues with me just minding my own business there on t he parking lot and that he wouldn't "contact the authorities" on me or anything. I'm assuming NP police patrolling the place like this started later?

I guess I should have started a thread here myself earlier, but like I said: I thought I had maybe just made a mistake in getting permissions ahead of time and wasn't sure on the exact nature of verbal or written agreements with NPS or other authorities - I merely just went by what information we have here: https://observers.org/pinnacles-west/. On this note: I wonder if, in the interim, it would be good to update the information on this site info to give people a heads up of what park ranger reactions they might expect or share contact information for the chief ranger to help clarify the rules around entry and exit when we're asked to leave?

[Peter Natscher]

I'm sure once the illegal alien removal activity by the DC  SAdministration settles down, we won't see a Park ranger entering the Park like last night asking for id's in the middle of the night.  Usually, the resident Rangers get used to our repeated visits and don't bother with checking if we nap for a few hours (2am-6am) before sunrise. We keep a low profile causing no issues.

[Easswar]

Peter

I don't know if this is viable, but could we email the details of your conversation with the head ranger and maybe just ask him to send a "confirmed" reply? This way we can all keep a copy of that email thread in our inboxes in case someone is asked again.

Easswar

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[mtoma...@comcast.net]

Yikes!  And another Yikes!

The MIRA Astronomy Club has a members' star party scheduled for the Pinnacles West parking lot on Saturday, July 19th.  I will be sure to share with the attending members all of the pertinent information in this message thread.  Key takeaways:

1. Enter the park before 8pm.
2. Pay the daily entrance fee (or have an annual National Parks pass or lifetime senior pass).
3. No sleeping.
4. No parking or setting up equipment where vehicles must pass through.
5. Use no more than two parking spaces.  (One for your vehicle, one for your telescope equipment.)  Using only one space is better.
6. No need to contact the park ranger prior to your outing.
7. Respect and cooperate with any non-club-members also at the parking lot on that evening/night.

Am I missing anything?

If any of you still feel a need to have a contract or agreement with Pinnacles to use the west entrance parking spot, consider co-opting with the MIRA Astronomy Club.  We are the nearest non-school-sponsored astronomy club to that parking lot.  Membership to our club is free.  (No dues.)  When a staff member of MIRA is in attendance at one of our events, MIRA's liability insurance is in effect.  If interested in exploring this option, please reach out to me directly.  But it seems to me that a formal contract or agreement is not necessary, based on Peter Natscher's posting above.  (Nice write-up, Peter.)

[Peter Natscher]

Patrick said he would talk to the Ranger today who came by last night about visitors remaining in the Park after closing time at 8pm as long as they arrive before 8pm. I will take him at his word about notifying the other Ranger and not hassle him with any more of our requests. If you are in the Park and this new Ranger comes by asking you questions, just mention Chief Ranger Patrick Kneimar's name and the Park visitor policy.  That should be enough.

On Thursday, June 26, 2025 at 1:39:41 PM UTC-7 eass...@gmail.com wrote:

[Peter Natscher]

If the attendance is large, then using only one parking space per vehicle, and equipment at tail gate, would be a better plan, and don't set up to far towards the middle of the parking lot, so that vehicles can pass by safely.

[Mark Wagner]

On 6/26/2025 13:47, Peter Natscher wrote:

Patrick <snip> and not hassle him with any more of our requests.

Peter, that's a good choice.  I would like to ask though if it is possible to check on this one last request, for the greater community.  For those who prefer going to Pinnacles East.  The Peaks View Parking lot at PE is a nice observing area.  That is where "Ranger Beast" tried throwing our group out last year, saying we can't use the parking lots to set up.

If it is ok to set up in the parking lot at Pinnacles West, then why not East?  Peaks View is way away from the camping area, there is no night activity going to to speak of further into the park at night. Nobody is going to want to go there are night. So what's the problem other than Ranger Beast possibly just wanting what he wants?

Would it be possible at some point to check with Patrick and find if what's allowed at PW is likewise allowed at PE, since it is the same d*mn park?

Thanks,

Mark

[Peter Natscher]

https://www.nps.gov/pinn/learn/management/superintendent-s-compendium.htm

Superintendent's Compendium

Pinnacles National Park Superintendent's Compendium May 8, 2025

36 CFR §1.5 – VISITING HOURS, PUBLIC USE LIMITS, CLOSURES, AND AREA DESIGNATIONS FOR SPECIFIC USE OR ACTIVITIES (a)(1) The following visiting hours and public use limits are established for the listed portions of the park, and the following closures are established for all or a portion of the park to all public use or to a certain use or activity:

Hours of Operation:

• Pinnacles Nature Center (East Side) is open daily from 10:00 am to 3:00 pm, depending on available staffing.
• West Pinnacles Visitor Contact Station is open daily from 10:00 am to 3:00 pm, depending on available staffing.
• Inbound access to the West side of the park is open daily at 7:30 am. Inbound access closes at 8:00 pm.

Public Use Limits: Inbound access to the West side of the park is open approximately during daylight hours. The hours are 7:30 am to 8:00 pm.Determining Factors: The automatic gate at the western boundary allows access to the park during daytime hours but does not allow access after dark. As there are no overnight accommodations on the west side of the park, the west entrance is restricted to day-time entry. Those visitors in the park after dark can activate the gate to leave, but the gate will not open tothose outside the park.

This last sentence covers those visitors already inside the park who want to remian inside the Park during the evening after it closes to the incoming traffic at 8pm. This applies to both the East and West sides of the Park.

On Thursday, June 26, 2025 at 1:39:41 PM UTC-7 eass...@gmail.com wrote:

[Jeff Crilly]

>
> On Jun 26, 2025, at 11:52 AM, Peter Natscher <natsch...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> there are rattle snakes,

Here’s the rattler I found under the car at 8am at PW. It was small. Maybe a foot long.
Rattler was not fully developed.

It slithered under the parking space wheel-block/stop thing.

[Peter Natscher]

Sunday night up at FPOA, I saw a beautiful 6ft. long King snake slither by me slowly while I was walking from a pad to my SUV for a snack using my red LED astronomy light.  I almost stepped on it, hopping over it. I'm glad I didn't step on the snake as they are good snakes, a defence against rattlers. They are immune to rattlesnake venom.

[Jamie Dillon, DDK]

Having already praised my buddy Peter on that other thread, here I'll do it again. Thanks.

Does look like we can all keep the name of Chief Ranger, Patrick Kneimar handy as a mantra.

I got the same sense last month that this nervousness from the cop on the west side was secondary to all this current flurry from La Migra. It'll settle.

Meanwhile, Vishal and Easswar, to reinforce what Peter said, we really do not want to hassle that chief ranger any further. This is settled for now.

And Vishal, we are not going to formalize nor reorganize TAC, oh no.

That guy at 11:30 last night must be a city boy. Never heard of rattlers moving around at night.

[Mark Wagner]

On 6/26/2025 15:37, Jamie Dillon, DDK wrote:

And Vishal, we are not going to formalize nor reorganize TAC, oh no.

LCO is TAC organized.

The rest is joyous chaos.

[Jay Freeman]

This might be a good time to mention that rattlesnake venom tends to be most potent when the snake is young.

-- Jay Reynolds Freeman
---------------------
Jay_Reynol...@mac.com
http://JayReynoldsFreeman.com (personal web site)

[Ted Hauter]

Sorry to hear!

Need a email record with an ok 👍 and most importantly a name to tell the officer.

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[Peter Natscher]

The Park officer had no right to ask for id's from us or order us out of the Park.  Two big mistakes by a officer who doesn't know what he's doing.  I didn't want to make an issue with this at the time with this officer or today with Chief Ranger Patrick Kneimar.  Wouldn't have been worth the outcome on their turf. Don't want to create additional problems.  If it happens again with any of you, please excercise your US citizen rights to be in 'your' National Park and not have to present your id's as no crimes were being investigated or were made.

[microflite]

Thanks for taking to the ranger, Peter. I was one of the other three people there and it was an unpleasant and a bit scary experience.  

I hate to say this but in the current atmosphere, as a “brown” person, I would be afraid of using the space with only a verbal agreement. Who knows if a new ranger will get the memo or not!

BTW,  the ranger told us that we’ll have a warning on our records!!!  Did you know this? This is patently unreasonable and I want to get it removed. Can you talk to ranger Kneimar? He said the record will only be visible to park police but who knows. Im a US citizen but given the situation in the country, I don’t want to give any excuse be harassed by immigration during my next return to the US after a trip abroad.

Ashok 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 26, 2025, at 4:14 PM, Ted Hauter <thgo...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Peter Natscher]

Hi Ashok,

This entire experience at the Park was very unpleasant and unnecessary. I am going to phone Chief Ranger Kneimar again today and discus this with him, along with a few more questions I have about staying in then Park over night. I will get back to you after I can talk with him.

Thanks,

Peter

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[Francesco Meschia]

I wasn’t there, of course, but I'd also find it problematic to be asked to present my id with no crime being investigated or probable cause. I think the Chief Ranger should be informed if we hope to rein this in – and if I understood Peter correctly, currently he doesn’t know about that.

Francesco

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[Jamie Dillon, DDK]

Ashok, that's bullshit about a warning on anybody's record. No way the national park service has records on visitors. That guy must have made it up just to be mean.

That kind of person should be stuck behind a desk somewhere, not dealing with people and not out in the open air.

[Mark Wagner]

Just in case, I can attest to the fact there is a pretty nice astronomy club with an observatory outside San Salvador.  Been there a few times 

Mark

On Fri, Jun 27, 2025, 9:51 AM Jamie Dillon, DDK <ngc1...@gmail.com> wrote:

Ashok, that's bullshit about a warning on anybody's record. No way the national park service has records on visitors. That guy must have made it up just to be mean.

That kind of person should be stuck behind a desk somewhere, not dealing with people and not out in the open air.

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[microflite]

Damn, Thanks, Jaimie. That's good! And bad.

Peter, David, Did he mention the "Warning" to you guys?

Ashok

On Fri, Jun 27, 2025 at 9:51 AM Jamie Dillon, DDK <ngc1...@gmail.com> wrote:

Ashok, that's bullshit about a warning on anybody's record. No way the national park service has records on visitors. That guy must have made it up just to be mean.

That kind of person should be stuck behind a desk somewhere, not dealing with people and not out in the open air.

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[Peter Santangeli]

I wish that was funny :-(

As an immigrant myself (who is now a citizen) I weep for the fear this is putting in good people.

pete

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[Tan usa1]

After the last years incident I have stopped going to pinnacles at all and will go to our alternate dark site as it’s just and hours drive more and dispersed camping is allowed. 

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[Vishal Kasliwal]

I think the point is that you shouldn't have to...

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[Mark Wagner]

That's right Vishal (and Peter too).

Personally I think the ranger who demanded IDs for no reason should be the one with a warning on his record.  Not any of us for simply using our National Parks.

I am going to post a proposal for Pinnacles observing and a link to alternative sites on a separate thread later today.

Mark

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-- 
Mark

"Always take the scenic route."

[Akarsh Simha]

On Fri, Jun 27, 2025 at 11:02 Mark Wagner <itsmar...@gmail.com> wrote:

That's right Vishal (and Peter too).

Personally I think the ranger who demanded IDs for no reason should be the one with a warning on his record.  Not any of us for simply using our National Parks.

I am going to post a proposal for Pinnacles observing and a link to alternative sites on a separate thread later today.

Let us keep our alternative sites private. I don’t want to have them close during Perseids or such. Regular TACos will find out by word of mouth.

It’s unfortunate that positions of power generally attract a higher likelihood of sociopaths. Glad to know the chief ranger is not one and is helpful to our case.

I think in order to be able to observe from PW again, I would want a written clarification of the policy. Especially more so as a non-US citizen (although I would suspect this has nothing to do with immigration enforcement). I anyway have other issues with Pinnacles that make it a less preferable observing site.

Regards

Akarsh

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[Peter Natscher]

The Park's Superintendent's Compendium states that anybody inside the Park after gate closing at 8pm can remain inside the park and leave at wiil during the night. Print out the compendium and carry it with you during your next visit.

https://www.nps.gov/pinn/learn/management/superintendent-s-compendium.htm

36 CFR §1.5 – VISITING HOURS, PUBLIC USE LIMITS, CLOSURES, AND AREA DESIGNATIONS FOR SPECIFIC USE OR ACTIVITIES (a)(1) The following visiting hours and public use limits are established for the listed portions of the park, and the following closures are established for all or a portion of the park to all public use or to a certain use or activity:

Hours of Operation:

• Pinnacles Nature Center (East Side) is open daily from 10:00 am to 3:00 pm, depending on available staffing.
• West Pinnacles Visitor Contact Station is open daily from 10:00 am to 3:00 pm, depending on available staffing.
• Inbound access to the West side of the park is open daily at 7:30 am. Inbound access closes at 8:00 pm.

Public Use Limits:I nbound access to the West side of the park is open approximately during daylight hours. The hours are 7:30 am to 8:00 pm.Determining Factors: The automatic gate at the western boundary allows access to the park during daytime hours but does not allow access after dark. As there are no overnight accommodations on the west side of the park, the west entrance is restricted to day-time entry.Those visitors in the park after dark can activate the gate to leave, but the gate will not open tothose outside the park.

[Mark Wagner]

Yes Akarsh.  I intend to invite people on  TAC who are unfamiliar with CDSr to join the mailing list, and abide by the on simple rule.

It's not a private "club".  It's just private.

Mark

"Always take the scenic route."

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[Thomas Taylor]

Not to take the rangers position in this but I do believe that he had the right to ask for your ID.  He clearly has the right to ask for your park pass/receipt to verify if you had paid the entry fees and therefore the concurrent right to ask to see your ID to determine if you are the person named on the pass.  So I wouldn't push this any further and risk pushing someone to "clarify" the 8pm rule in a way that's detrimental to us observers.

Thomas

[Mark Wagner]

While I agree (they ask for your ID when leaving the East side, at least with a pass), it does not excuse the warning on your record ".  

Mark

"Always take the scenic route."

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[Peter Natscher]

The Ranger did not ask for proof of payment of any Park passes. He did ask Dave and I when we arrived through the open gate.  I said I arrived by 7pm and Dave much earlier.  The three others arrived together later on, it was twilight, so they might have been in violation if they arrived after 8pm, and if they told the Ranger so.  There are no gate records to check when vehicles pass through.  It's all the honor system right now with a gate stuck open all night.

[Akarsh Simha]

Thanks for the compendium Peter. I’ll make sure to have a copy for any rangers if I ever decide to go to Pinnacles.

My understanding is (and I’m not a lawyer and could be misremembering), you are required to “identify” to law enforcement if there is reasonable suspicion. This does not mean present an ID, but state your name. You do not need to show an ID card, state your citizenship status or such. Of course it may be easier to comply to de-escalate, but it is not required.

For US citizens, no proof of identity is ever required. For non-citizens, documentation of legal status is required to be carried “at all times” but the penalty for not doing so is limited (I think it’s a fairly hefty fine). This law was on the books forever, but given the present administration’s interest in enforcing it, I have started carrying proof of legal status of late.

Of course all this is pertinent on federal lands (NPS, BLM, USFS) since state officers are not mandated to comply with the federal administration.

So I don’t think Peter was required to show ID and could have refused; but of course sometimes it’s nicer to de-escalate rather than fight and win a lawsuit.

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[Vishal Kasliwal]

Any TAC lawyers out there who can verify?

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[Francesco Meschia]

Not a lawyer, but the people who wrote this are. For state LEO, “it’s complicated”, but for the federal government it seems clear.

[Peter Natscher]

"So I don’t think Peter was required to show ID and could have refused; but of course sometimes it’s nicer to de-escalate rather than fight and win a lawsuit."

Yes, who want's to be handcuffed over disagreements at 11:30pm?  Not a smart move.  The Ranger was acting seriously.  Maybe there's confusion within the National Parks System right now over the Illegals issue. No need to stir the pot at Pinnacles from our end. The Fed's are even jailing our congress members over governemnt disagreements.  I haven't seen times like this since I was protesting the Vietnam War in 1968. We lost the war but won the battle  ;)

[Mark Wagner]

That's right Peter.  Pick your battles wisely.  In VietNam we lost friends and just got a wall with 53000 names on it.  And some wisdom.

I can't believe we're fighting the same internal war again 

There's a famous poem: In Flanders Fields that gets to it.  WWI.

For inconsequential Pinnacles, a symptom, we have better solutions than a shooting war.

Mark

"Always take the scenic route."

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[4b...@templetons.com]

More to the point, while you don't have to show id by law, you have little choice but to try to have a good relationship with the rangers if you want an easy time in the park.  The nps is under siege from the administration, people are getting let go and I bet they are on edge. Defend your rights but if it's a minor matter be friends.  Of course there are times that getting is demanded is not minor.  We non citizens thank those who stand their ground on that

--
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

[microflite]

We were on time, arriving around 7:40 or so. 

Ashok

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 27, 2025, at 1:21 PM, Peter Natscher <natsch...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[microflite]

Peter, Not to nitpick but the compendium only states that people in the park after dark can leave via the automatic gate. Nothing explicitly mentions that visitors could stay until morning without a camping permit. The ranger who accosted us said that he’d expect an hours grace period and expect people to be out by 9pm. Lmk if I’m misreading it or missing something. 

  

Ashok

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 27, 2025, at 12:32 PM, Peter Natscher <natsch...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Ted Hauter]

When I get pulled over it's a sigh of relief when I see the officer getting out has lots of gray hair.

On Thu, Jun 26, 2025, 3:47 PM 'Jay Freeman' via The Astronomy Connection (TAC) <sf-ba...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

This might be a good time to mention that rattlesnake venom tends to be most potent when the snake is young.

--  Jay Reynolds Freeman
---------------------
Jay_Reynol...@mac.com
http://JayReynoldsFreeman.com (personal web site)

> On Jun 26, 2025, at 15:09, Jeff Crilly <jeffc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> On Jun 26, 2025, at 11:52 AM, Peter Natscher <natsch...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> there are rattle snakes,
>
> Here’s the rattler I found under the car at 8am at PW.   It was small.  Maybe a foot long. 
> Rattler was not fully developed. 
>
> It slithered under the parking space wheel-block/stop thing.

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[Ted Hauter]

Not to get too intense but I've been around guns in the dark before in parks mostly, it's all bad. Even if they take a look. Now if you have edgy young folks bad things are much closer - than someone who  doesn't watch YouTube - thinks.

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[vkumarhome]

I wanted to echo Nate's sentiments and thank him for speaking with the Chief Ranger. I was one of three individuals, along with Ashok, who observed the park ranger's concerning behavior. I'm hopeful that with a clear protocol, we'll be able to return to the park soon. On a positive note, I did get a few pictures before our night was cut short.

Here they are:  

https://photos.app.goo.gl/Tjn5mz6UjG1wiZX18

Regards,
Vikram

Ps: thanks for adding me to this group

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[thomas taylor]

I wouldn't worry about the "warning."  That's what the cops always say when they don't want to give you a ticket.  There's no "Warning Book" back at the station house to write your name in.

Thomas

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[Thomas Taylor]

If you're in the park past closing hours then they have the right to see your ID and permission.  I recommend that someone be delegated to schedule a meeting with the head ranger/superintendent and come to a firm agreement in writing.

Thomas

On Friday, June 27, 2025 at 1:31:20 PM UTC-7 akars...@gmail.com wrote:

[Peter Natscher]

West side of Park has no camping.  There are no camping spaces in the West side. There is no place for camping gear to be set up nor any sleeping allowed in a vehicle. Sleeping in a vehicle can be defined as car camping. There are many ways to camp. Visitors do stay all night to do other 'activities' like night hiking, nighttime animal life study, astronomy, etc.  That's why the gate has been designed to let visitors out at any time during the night but no one can come in after 8 pm. Imagine the extra work for the rangers at all hours of the night getting phone calls if the gate locked up by 8 pm for exiting the Park and visitors who were still hiking on a trail couldn't get out of the Park. Visitors can be expected to be in the Park legally at any time during the night as long as they enter before closing time by 8pm and are active, not camping or sleeping.  Does this make sense?

[microflite]

Yes, Thanks for clarifying, Peter.

Ashok

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[David Cooper]

I will not observe from Pinnacles West again until I see something in writing from the Chief Ranger or the Park Superintendent stating that we have permission to be there after 8 PM and observe until morning.  

Needless to say last Wednesday’s experience was not a pleasant one and I am still pissed about it. Having to pack up in a rush at midnight and drive 2+ hrs back home is not my idea of a fun time.

I have sent a letter (a polite one) to the Park Administrators explaining my personal experience of what happened on Wednesday, my history of observing from the Pinnacles West parking lot, the friendly and accommodating rangers in the past, and asking for clarification on the rules for using the West location for observing after hours. I will post any response that I get from them. Any verbal ok is not sufficient in my book given the militancy of the ranger we encountered on Wednesday.

Dave

[vkumarhome]

Agreed.

Thanks all for assisting with this matter.

Regards,
Vikram

On Sat, Jun 28, 2025 at 12:47 PM David Cooper <david....@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

I will not observe from Pinnacles West again until I see something in writing from the Chief Ranger or the Park Superintendent stating that we have permission to be there after 8 PM and observe until morning.  

Needless to say last Wednesday’s experience was not a pleasant one and I am still pissed about it. Having to pack up in a rush at midnight and drive 2+ hrs back home is not my idea of a fun time.

I have sent a letter (a polite one) to the Park Administrators explaining my personal experience of what happened on Wednesday, my history of observing from the Pinnacles West parking lot, the friendly and accommodating rangers in the past, and asking for clarification on the rules for using the West location for observing after hours. I will post any response that I get from them. Any verbal ok is not sufficient in my book given the militancy of the ranger we encountered on Wednesday.

Dave

On Friday, June 27, 2025 at 10:15:18 PM UTC-7 vkumarhome wrote:

I wanted to echo Peter’s sentiments and thank him for speaking with the Chief Ranger. I was one of three individuals, along with Ashok, who observed the park ranger's concerning behavior. I'm hopeful that with a clear protocol, we'll be able to return to the park soon. On a positive note, I did get a few pictures before our night was cut short.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sf-bay-tac/d955a79d-b0e4-491a-9fab-cfae944396fcn%40googlegroups.com.

[Peter Natscher]

"If you're in the park past closing hours then they have the right to see your ID and permission.  I recommend that someone be delegated to schedule a meeting with the head ranger/superintendent and come to a firm agreement in writing."

Really?  Chief Ranger Patrick told me in my phone call to him last Thursday 6/26 saying it was ok to be in the Park during the night if you arrived before closing time at 8pm.  That's all.  So, we were not illigal.  The Park Police, or whatever he was, overly excercised his authority in ordering us out of the Park and on top of that id'ing us and giving warnings to some.  It is our Park, we are citizens, we paid our Park fees, and there was no cause for him to suspect us.  I don't agree that a policeman has unlimited rights to do what he did to us.  That's not what this country is about. Immigrants come to our country to get away from such treatment.  If this is starting to be a new way of administration, then there is going to be humongous national push back.  

[Peter Natscher]

I just got off the phone with Chief Ranger Kneimar and talked with him about the Pinnacles NP policy for anyone staying inside the park. For me, that's specifically the west side of the park which I use.  He said that anyone can remain inside the park after the 8pm closing time for as long as they wish and stay inside as long as you arrive before 8pm.  When the park entrance west-side gate is working properly in the futrure, it will close to all entrants by 8pm and open at all hours during the night between 8pm and 7:30am to let you out of the park.

The park policy is firm about parking and setting up any hobby equipment on the parking areas' pavement. There will be no setting up of any equipment or furniture on the parking area pavement.  Parking areas and parking area slots are meant for vehicle parking only. Each vehicle must take up only one parking slot.  All personal transported items must be set up on the grassy non-parking areas adjacent to the paved parking areas.  This is for the safety of people and their equipment as the paved parking areas are to be used for parked and moving vehicles.  For the west side of the park astro use, this might be beneficial because the paved areas during a hot day emit a lot of heat into the night and this negatively affects astro equipment.  The neighboring grassy areas are a better set up spot.  Just back up your vehicle into the parking slot to the stop bar and unload your equipment onto the grassy area. I'm not familiar with the east side parking areas' parking layouts but the same park policy applies. No setting up of equipment on the parking lot pavement.  I believe the person who was in violation with the park at Peaks View parking area on June 29 was set up on the parking lot paved area and was in violation and asked to leave the park.  Anyone who violates these policy items will be cited with a ticket, says Chief Ranger Neimar.

Secondly, Chief Ranger Neimar is firm about not sleepingor resting at all in any of the park's vehicle parking areas, both east-side and west side sections of the park. Sleeping must be done in the park's dedicated camping area (in the park's east side only) and which requires a park reservation.

One solution to getting rest or sleep after observing or imaging most of the night in the park's west entrance is to reserve a room at Motel 6, a 15 minutes drive down hill in Soledad. Motel 6 in Soledad is a good hotel to stay in for one night and the Windmill Restaurant is next door.  $110 per night and you can share a double room at $55 each.  Not bad!  I'm looking at this solution for getting some sleep before driving home in the late morning as a way to continue my visits to Pinnacles West Entrance.

On Thursday, June 26, 2025 at 9:40:30 AM UTC-7 Peter Natscher wrote:

Last night, David Coper and I along with three other nighttime astro visitors were abruptly ordered to stop our nighttime activity in the park's west entrance parking lot by a NP police man driving in at 11:30pm.  He arrive suddenly with high beam vehicle lights blinding us and with a loud megaphone ordering all of us to come to his vihicle along with our id's.  He announced to us that we we in violation with the NP's rules of not leaving the park by the posted 8pm exit time.  We told him that we have had a verbal agreement with the park for many years to be here after park public hours and do astro-activities all night, leaving by early morning.  He replied that this informal agreement doesn't matter anymore and the park will be policed daily to make sure all visitors leave the park by 8pm.  The entrance gate is still broken remaining open all night so it will be interesting to see how the park will keep people out after 8pm.  I am going to contact the park's east-side main office and talk to someone about this incident and if we can continue somehow to have access to the park during the night. Maybe a contract is required, something written onm paper for a new agreement.  I know that Lassen NP requires nighttime astro-use intentions need to be file with the office ahead of time per nighttime daily use so that they know who is in the parking lots during the night.  NP's work this way. For now, no one is allowed to remain in the park's west side after 8pm.  I'm not sure how this affects the east side of the park concerning astro-activity after 8pm.

[Mark Wagner]

If I were still on the SJAA Board, I'd put in the board meeting agenda an item for discontinuing free public star parties there.  A "one sided love affair" never works.

As we know, other national Parks accommodate visiting astronomers.

Pinnacles wants their cake, and to eat it too.  I think they should eat it.

Mark

"Always take the scenic route."

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[Peter Natscher]

Sorry, Mark, we are on the receiving side of things. You make your choices. Some of us have few choices of places to do our astronomy from and so we make compromises, stay flexible.  No stuborness needed.   😊  Within an hour's drive, I have two choices to observe: Fremont Peak FPOA or Pinnacles NP West Entrance.  I'll take both, thank you!  It gets the job done.  You heard: "Don't dump the baby with the bath water"?  

[Akarsh Simha]

Peter, thanks for your extensive work in clarifying this.

I would request that the TAC website be updated with this information so that others aren’t taken by surprise by these rules.

The list of reasons to avoid pinnacles keeps adding up, but there is still a certain kind of use case for observing there, for example if amenities are needed and it’s a short night session or a winter night. So I’m with you in keeping the option open for TAC.

Is this policy also valid on the east side / peaks view? If so peaks view has a good meadow to set up on that is flat.

Regards

Akarsh

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[Mark Wagner]

I know opinions will differ, Peter 

I just would never put my baby in known dirty water.

Mark

"Always take the scenic route."

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[Francesco Meschia]

Very complete information – thank you for sharing it!

Do you know what the ranger meant by “paved surface”? Is it only where the black top is, or does it include the unpaved but graded portion of the lot? It does make a big difference, on the East side in particular.

Francesco 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 2, 2025, at 13:20, Akarsh Simha <akars...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[John Pierce]

On Wed, Jul 2, 2025 at 1:26 PM Francesco Meschia <francesc...@gmail.com> wrote:

Very complete information – thank you for sharing it!

Do you know what the ranger meant by “paved surface”? Is it only where the black top is, or does it include the unpaved but graded portion of the lot? It does make a big difference, on the East side in particular.

last time I was at Pinnacles West, as I remember it, the east side of the parking lot didn't have any level grass, it quickly turned into a rather steep hill.   I don't think the west side was level either 

 view looking to the east

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.4780206,-121.2262149,3a,75y,43.45h,87.46t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1slhBvhuIzj0XpC9t6f9kUiA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D2.5363686577965723%26panoid%3DlhBvhuIzj0XpC9t6f9kUiA%26yaw%3D43.452957519179904!7i13312!8i6656?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDYzMC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

view looking west

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.4780206,-121.2262149,3a,75y,259.54h,85.69t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1slhBvhuIzj0XpC9t6f9kUiA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D4.307311519286316%26panoid%3DlhBvhuIzj0XpC9t6f9kUiA%26yaw%3D259.53817360757233!7i13312!8i6656?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDYzMC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

[Akarsh Simha]

I don’t remember the west side having level grass, but the east side peaks view lot has at least room for 2–3 rigs that is level

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[Peter Natscher]

Pinnacles NP - West Entrance does have plenty of adjacent grassy area for equipment set up.  Leave vehicle in poarkinmg slot cargo side of vehicle facing grassy area and unload your vehecle omnto grass.

[Peter Natscher]

"Paved"areas include ang area that might allow a vehicle to drive into, and might be: an area of dirt, gravel, and mostly black top.  It's an area where any visiting vehicle will drive through or park.  The park wants to safely keep people and their quipment safe from moving vehicles, especially at night with poor seeing. This applies to the east and west sides of the park.

[Aris Pope]

I'm done with Pinnacles. Now it's a huge  headache and cost just for one night there. 

Sorry that's your only option besides Fremont Peak, Peter. 

Aris

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[Mitchell Koerner]

Thanks for all the details here Peter. I haven't visited Pinnacles, but if I do I'll be armed with knowledge.

I second Akarsh's request that the rules get copied to observers.org if possible. Who's the correct contact for that again?

Thanks,

Mitchell

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[Mark Wagner]

Michael,

There are better places nearby without the onerous rules.  I say "fudge" them.

To the newer people on TAC, this mailing list and community you enjoy here sprang out of this exact sort of BS back in the 90's.  And look what we got out of it.... a community that without actual rules or boards of directors or inflexible servants governing us, Lassen, Shingletown, GSSP, CalStar, friends over three decades.  All because a club I won't mention by name (but it rhymes closely with SJA-Hey) had a board that loved making rules for everyone, including their own board behavior to the degree of a straight-jacket.  So, TAC sprang out of that Medusa's head, and have been thriving ever since.

Don't put up with BS.

Peter...  you mention what the paved areas at Pinnacles are.  Are those very different than the paved lots at Lassen, or overflow lot at Coe?  Friendly, unfriendly.  Why support the unfriendly under almost any condition?  To them, astronomy is squashed except there entertainment even on the east side that they run.  Who the fudge does the park belong to anyway, gun toting bureaucrats?

Seriously, there are better places, you can find them on CDSE, which given this current basura, may end up the new TAC.

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-- 
Mark

"Always take the scenic route."

[gee kohler]

Gentlemen,

Been watching this Pinnacle drama for a while now. At least for those in the east bay, lake Sonoma archery range parking lot is identical in distance and actually faster most of the time and just as dark or darker out west and north with excellent horizons May be a few minutes longer from south bay, you should consider this site. No rules, sleep as you wish and leave when you wish 🤔

Gopal K

Sent from my iPhone -made in China😴

On Jul 2, 2025, at 3:17 PM, Mark Wagner <itsmar...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Peter Natscher]

No need to be sorry for my decision.  It's a good one for me.  Life is full of decisions.  For me, I can get Pinnacles West to work.  Nothing's perfect.  It's close to Monetery and still offers decent skies so that's big. For you and others in the Bay Area, it's not. It's a safe site with emergency support nearby and that's important, especially as you get older. The info I have sent to this forum will be useful for some.

[Akarsh Simha]

On Wed, Jul 2, 2025 at 16:00 Peter Natscher <natsch...@gmail.com> wrote:

No need to be sorry for my decision.  It's a good one for me.  Life is full of decisions.  For me, I can get Pinnacles West to work.  Nothing's perfect.  It's close to Monetery and still offers decent skies so that's big. For you and others in the Bay Area, it's not. It's a safe site with emergency support nearby and that's important, especially as you get older. The info I have sent to this forum will be useful for some.

Afaik lake sonoma has the same rule which is no sleeping in your vehicle although there is always someone (non-astronomer) invariably doing it.

Lake Sonoma is definitely a better choice for east bay and peninsula residents.

Moreover it’s free — you don’t need a permit, no gate closing at 8pm, no fees. On the flip side there’s invariably someone driving through at night.

I’m partial to the skies at lake Sonoma over pinnacles 

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[Jamie Dillon, DDK]

Thanks a whole lot, Peter, for clarifying all this. This next New Moon cycle, I'm definitely going to Pinnacles West, exercise my right to be there.

I really like the Pinnacles, as demonstrated by countless OR's. It's satisfyingly dark, and embarrassingly easy to get to from Salinas. And it's beautiful there.

About the Motel 6 in Soledad, it's nice, not expensive, I've stayed there, used to be the Valley Harvest Inn. And the Windmill right next door has good food.

Mitch was all -

> I second Akarsh's request that the rules get copied to observers.org if possible. Who's the correct contact for that again?

That is me and I just did. 

[Mitchell Koerner]

Thanks for updating the site Jamie! It is an incredible resource :)

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[Tan usa1]

The 2024 dark sky atlas shows pinnacles has deteriorated significantly since 2016. Especially the west side. East side looks darker now at peaks view atleast from the satellite view of light pollution

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[Peter Natscher]

Yes, the 2024 map shows that pretty much all sites have lost one color level or darkness in ten years.  Catch those Abells while you can.  I think the map is an estimate and not real ground data or satellite imagery. On top of this, we are experiencing a 11 year period solar maximum that brightens the sky more worldwide.

[Peter Natscher]

I'm not getting darker that SQM-L 21.3 at Pinnacles West during best nights these days.  Used to get 21.6 in 2018.

[Ted Hauter]

I just paid another $45 for one night at LSA (Cleared up 1am to 3am :) 

Pick your battles but that is one of them.

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[Akarsh Simha]

The more I engage in this hobby, the more I realize that transparency and seeing are more important than low light pollution levels. I remain optimistic despite the dreadful rise of light pollution.

Regards

Akarsh

[Mark Wagner]

It is really transparency.  Seeing I agree with as #2.  And seeing seems the most finicky to forecast.

We really should start a new thread/subject line, as the topic has drifted.

But back to Pinnacles.  I wonder about setting up off the road on the dirt shoulder where possible, then spending the night in a campsite.  It would seem to meet all the requirements. Anyone?

PinWest is a lost cause unless you want to stay in Soledad (roach motel) for the night.  Or live in nearby Salinas.  I don't want a nearly two hour drive home at 2-3 a.m.

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"Always take the scenic route."

[Peter Natscher]

According to Chief Ranger Kneimar’s remarks to me, don’t even think about setting up anything on or along a road way. He’s cited people setting up camera tripods a nd small scopes for grabbing their nighttime celestial shots and getting hit by a vehicle. Not very smart. The way people drive here in CA, it’s no wonder.

[Mark Wagner]

Then Pinnacles is entirely hosed.  No way will I be dragging my 18" out into the scrub thru the brush.  It seems the only astronomy that can fit within the gestapo rules there is small aperture that is very portable into the bush, or with the SJAA as public circus entertainment.

There really are better, freer (in several senses) places to go.  That's what CDSE is for.

On 7/3/2025 15:34, 'Peter Natscher' via The Astronomy Connection (TAC) wrote:

According to Chief Ranger Kneimar’s remarks to me, don’t even think about setting up anything on or along a road way. He’s cited people setting up camera tripods a nd small scopes for grabbing their nighttime celestial shots and getting hit by a vehicle. Not very smart. The way people drive here in CA, it’s no wonder.

[Peter Natscher]

Summertime observing ends for me by 2am to hget four hrs of observing and with the time it takes to pack up after that, it’s too late to drive home, a 1hr10min for me to Monterey at that night hour. But come fall and winter, I can get four+ hours of observing in by midnight and then get home by 1am'ish, and that’s what I’ll do during those later seasons. The Motel 6 in Soledad is only a summertime plan for me, and that’s if I do like it. This is only a trial run. I’ll pack lite for a fast packup at 2am, no sleeping equipment. I do want to get down to the LSA/Lockwood area sometime in the next month or two to get a darker sky. This summer has been cloudy and cold along the central coast this year. The 101 corridor sites haven’t been too hot so far this summer. Fires have been non-existing. Maybe that will change by September. We’re getting our summer climate later and later in the year, just like hurricanes back East are ocurring later in the year, also. Climatic shifts.

[Ted Hauter]

10-4 to that. 

Sky looked clear then later it was.

4th of July came early, lots of flashing stars! Then those settled a bit too. 1am heaven.

On Thu, Jul 3, 2025, 3:46 PM 'Peter Natscher' via The Astronomy Connection (TAC) <sf-ba...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Summertime observing ends for me by 2am to hget four hrs of observing and with the time it takes to pack up after that, it’s too late to drive home, a 1hr10min for me to Monterey at that night hour.  But come fall and winter, I can get four+ hours of observing in by midnight and then get home by 1am'ish, and that’s what I’ll do during those later seasons.  The Motel 6 in Soledad is only a summertime plan for me, and that’s if I do like it. This is only a trial run.  I’ll pack lite for a fast packup at 2am, no sleeping equipment.  I do want to get down to the LSA/Lockwood area sometime in the next month or two to get a darker sky.  This summer has been cloudy and cold along the central coast this year.  The 101 corridor sites haven’t been too hot so far this summer.  Fires have been non-existing.  Maybe that will change by September.   We’re getting our summer climate later and later in the year, just like hurricanes back East are ocurring later in the year, also.  Climatic shifts.

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[microflite]

Thanks for clarifying, Peter. Did the head ranger mention any plans to make sure all rangers know of the rules? 

I plan to observe from the Pinnacles. Can't let the thugs win. 

-Ashok 

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[Mark Wagner]

I agree with Peter on the utility of PW in the winter, when by 10PM one could have in four hours observing and be home by midnight+.  That way they're only a seasonal gestapo ;-)

[Peter Natscher]

"Did the head ranger mention any plans to make sure all rangers know of the rules? "

I'm sure he did.

[Jeff Crilly]

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 3, 2025, at 3:46 PM, 'Peter Natscher' via The Astronomy Connection (TAC) <sf-ba...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
> I do want to get down to the LSA/Lockwood area sometime in the next month or two to get a darker sky.

Fwiw… I’m trying to figure out how/where the get around the July new moon.
Might be LSA for a couple nights.

I have another commitment on 7/26 (Lick).
7/24 new moon is highly likely a bust for me — I need to be in town on 7/24.

I’m thinking of LSA either 7/21,22 (leave on 7/23) or 7/28,29 (leave on 7/30).

Tho I might fallback to FP. Should be tolerable during the week. (Less crowds and dust.)

-jeff

[Yanzhe Liu]

I used to go to Pinnacles west for imaging. I stayed overnight and packed up in the morning, most of the time I left before gates reopened and range came back. 

One time after a night of imaging, my friend and I took a nap during dawn, then fog rolled in and we did not know the sun was already up.  When we woke up and stepped out, we saw that the ranger was checking our permit/receipt, he did not bother waking us up. So technically we are not allowed to sleep in the car but I think it is not always enforced if they know we are doing astronomy (we still had our equipment in the unpaved area).

On Wed, Jul 2, 2025 at 12:22 PM Peter Natscher <natsch...@gmail.com> wrote:

I just got off the phone with Chief Ranger Kneimar and talked with him about the Pinnacles NP policy for anyone staying inside the park. For me, that's specifically the west side of the park which I use.  He said that anyone can remain inside the park after the 8pm closing time for as long as they wish and stay inside as long as you arrive before 8pm.  When the park entrance west-side gate is working properly in the futrure, it will close to all entrants by 8pm and open at all hours during the night between 8pm and 7:30am to let you out of the park.

The park policy is firm about parking and setting up any hobby equipment on the parking areas' pavement. There will be no setting up of any equipment or furniture on the parking area pavement.  Parking areas and parking area slots are meant for vehicle parking only. Each vehicle must take up only one parking slot.  All personal transported items must be set up on the grassy non-parking areas adjacent to the paved parking areas.  This is for the safety of people and their equipment as the paved parking areas are to be used for parked and moving vehicles.  For the west side of the park astro use, this might be beneficial because the paved areas during a hot day emit a lot of heat into the night and this negatively affects astro equipment.  The neighboring grassy areas are a better set up spot.  Just back up your vehicle into the parking slot to the stop bar and unload your equipment onto the grassy area. I'm not familiar with the east side parking areas' parking layouts but the same park policy applies. No setting up of equipment on the parking lot pavement.  I believe the person who was in violation with the park at Peaks View parking area on June 29 was set up on the parking lot paved area and was in violation and asked to leave the park.  Anyone who violates these policy items will be cited with a ticket, says Chief Ranger Neimar.

Secondly, Chief Ranger Neimar is firm about not sleepingor resting at all in any of the park's vehicle parking areas, both east-side and west side sections of the park. Sleeping must be done in the park's dedicated camping area (in the park's east side only) and which requires a park reservation.

One solution to getting rest or sleep after observing or imaging most of the night in the park's west entrance is to reserve a room at Motel 6, a 15 minutes drive down hill in Soledad. Motel 6 in Soledad is a good hotel to stay in for one night and the Windmill Restaurant is next door.  $110 per night and you can share a double room at $55 each.  Not bad!  I'm looking at this solution for getting some sleep before driving home in the late morning as a way to continue my visits to Pinnacles West Entrance.

On Thursday, June 26, 2025 at 9:40:30 AM UTC-7 Peter Natscher wrote:

Last night, David Coper and I along with three other nighttime astro visitors were abruptly ordered to stop our nighttime activity in the park's west entrance parking lot by a NP police man driving in at 11:30pm.  He arrive suddenly with high beam vehicle lights blinding us and with a loud megaphone ordering all of us to come to his vihicle along with our id's.  He announced to us that we we in violation with the NP's rules of not leaving the park by the posted 8pm exit time.  We told him that we have had a verbal agreement with the park for many years to be here after park public hours and do astro-activities all night, leaving by early morning.  He replied that this informal agreement doesn't matter anymore and the park will be policed daily to make sure all visitors leave the park by 8pm.  The entrance gate is still broken remaining open all night so it will be interesting to see how the park will keep people out after 8pm.  I am going to contact the park's east-side main office and talk to someone about this incident and if we can continue somehow to have access to the park during the night. Maybe a contract is required, something written onm paper for a new agreement.  I know that Lassen NP requires nighttime astro-use intentions need to be file with the office ahead of time per nighttime daily use so that they know who is in the parking lots during the night.  NP's work this way. For now, no one is allowed to remain in the park's west side after 8pm.  I'm not sure how this affects the east side of the park concerning astro-activity after 8pm.

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[Arvind K]

Pinnacles West (PW) used to be my go-to spot for imaging, often multiple nights a month. I would always sleep in my car, packing up in the morning by 5am or so on weekdays to get to work, and around sunrise (6-7am) on weekends.

I encountered rangers many times during these visits and never had an issue. I wasn't aware that sleeping in the car wasn't allowed, and they never seemed to mind. Most often, they'd simply ask out of curiosity what celestial objects I was looking at the previous night.

It's a shame to hear how much the situation has changed, as I haven't been out much in the last year. While I might still go to Pinnacles for a few hours of observing, I'll likely look for other locations, such as near Summit Road, for that.

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[Doug Loyer]

I went to Pinnacles West last night.  Imaged from the overflow lot. Left about 1am. 

Not very dark due to the half moon, but no rangers. 

I am pretty sure I was the only one on the west side of the park.

The gate is currently tied open.  

Best

-Doug

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[Nikola Nikolov]

SJAA doesn't have parties at Pinnacles anymore. They use RCDO. 

These rules are contradicting themselves. If the gate closes at 8PM solid, then none can enter. Then what is the reason we cannot setup on the parking lots? Because none is enters West gate after 8PM, basically the whole parking is for astronomers by default. 

Exception will be big events, but as I mentioned SJAA has no plans to go back to Pinnacles National Park.

Anyway, we will follow up what rangers want, but it just doesn't make sense after 8 PM.

On Wed, Jul 2, 2025, 12:47 PM Mark Wagner <itsmar...@gmail.com> wrote:

If I were still on the SJAA Board, I'd put in the board meeting agenda an item for discontinuing free public star parties there.  A "one sided love affair" never works.

As we know, other national Parks accommodate visiting astronomers.

Pinnacles wants their cake, and to eat it too.  I think they should eat it.

Mark

"Always take the scenic route."

On Wed, Jul 2, 2025, 12:22 PM Peter Natscher <natsch...@gmail.com> wrote:

I just got off the phone with Chief Ranger Kneimar and talked with him about the Pinnacles NP policy for anyone staying inside the park. For me, that's specifically the west side of the park which I use.  He said that anyone can remain inside the park after the 8pm closing time for as long as they wish and stay inside as long as you arrive before 8pm.  When the park entrance west-side gate is working properly in the futrure, it will close to all entrants by 8pm and open at all hours during the night between 8pm and 7:30am to let you out of the park.

The park policy is firm about parking and setting up any hobby equipment on the parking areas' pavement. There will be no setting up of any equipment or furniture on the parking area pavement.  Parking areas and parking area slots are meant for vehicle parking only. Each vehicle must take up only one parking slot.  All personal transported items must be set up on the grassy non-parking areas adjacent to the paved parking areas.  This is for the safety of people and their equipment as the paved parking areas are to be used for parked and moving vehicles.  For the west side of the park astro use, this might be beneficial because the paved areas during a hot day emit a lot of heat into the night and this negatively affects astro equipment.  The neighboring grassy areas are a better set up spot.  Just back up your vehicle into the parking slot to the stop bar and unload your equipment onto the grassy area. I'm not familiar with the east side parking areas' parking layouts but the same park policy applies. No setting up of equipment on the parking lot pavement.  I believe the person who was in violation with the park at Peaks View parking area on June 29 was set up on the parking lot paved area and was in violation and asked to leave the park.  Anyone who violates these policy items will be cited with a ticket, says Chief Ranger Neimar.

Secondly, Chief Ranger Neimar is firm about not sleepingor resting at all in any of the park's vehicle parking areas, both east-side and west side sections of the park. Sleeping must be done in the park's dedicated camping area (in the park's east side only) and which requires a park reservation.

One solution to getting rest or sleep after observing or imaging most of the night in the park's west entrance is to reserve a room at Motel 6, a 15 minutes drive down hill in Soledad. Motel 6 in Soledad is a good hotel to stay in for one night and the Windmill Restaurant is next door.  $110 per night and you can share a double room at $55 each.  Not bad!  I'm looking at this solution for getting some sleep before driving home in the late morning as a way to continue my visits to Pinnacles West Entrance.

On Thursday, June 26, 2025 at 9:40:30 AM UTC-7 Peter Natscher wrote:

Last night, David Coper and I along with three other nighttime astro visitors were abruptly ordered to stop our nighttime activity in the park's west entrance parking lot by a NP police man driving in at 11:30pm.  He arrive suddenly with high beam vehicle lights blinding us and with a loud megaphone ordering all of us to come to his vihicle along with our id's.  He announced to us that we we in violation with the NP's rules of not leaving the park by the posted 8pm exit time.  We told him that we have had a verbal agreement with the park for many years to be here after park public hours and do astro-activities all night, leaving by early morning.  He replied that this informal agreement doesn't matter anymore and the park will be policed daily to make sure all visitors leave the park by 8pm.  The entrance gate is still broken remaining open all night so it will be interesting to see how the park will keep people out after 8pm.  I am going to contact the park's east-side main office and talk to someone about this incident and if we can continue somehow to have access to the park during the night. Maybe a contract is required, something written onm paper for a new agreement.  I know that Lassen NP requires nighttime astro-use intentions need to be file with the office ahead of time per nighttime daily use so that they know who is in the parking lots during the night.  NP's work this way. For now, no one is allowed to remain in the park's west side after 8pm.  I'm not sure how this affects the east side of the park concerning astro-activity after 8pm.

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[Francesco Meschia]

Nikola – of course they do. There was one on 6/28.

[Nikola Nikolov]

I thought SJAA and Pinnacle NP no longer collaborate.

Still, SJAA doesn't use the East site parking lot, right?

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