Wanted: Engineering, Design and Construction of Portable Newtonian Telescopes

[Ido Greiman]

I'm looking to buy (or borrow, if someone is willing to) Albert Highe's book "Engineering, Design and Construction of Portable Newtonian Telescopes".

Planning to build a 16" telescope and it needs to be light and compact (as my back won't be able to handle it otherwise), so the classic design wont work. Albert's book will be a lifesaver.

I've already searched everywhere (including contacting Albert himself) and placed an ad on cloudy nights, but so far - no luck. Hoping maybe someone here can help.

Thanks!

Ido

[Richard Ozer]

Ido, I'm pretty sure I have a copy (I have to look later today).  In my world, having it is much different than finding it.  You can privately email me at rich...@gmail.com.

Rich

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[Tim Lorz]

I found Albert's book on String telescopes on Abebooks, but unfortunately not the one on Newtonians.

https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=albert%20highe&cm_sp=det-_-bdp-_-author

Tim 

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[Ido Greiman]

Rich - I've sent you a private email. Looking forward to hear back from you :)

Tim - I was able to find that one from a guy in Florida (with the same name as you!). Not the book I need, but I'm sure I'll find some good ideas from there as well :)

Thanks guys!

Ido

On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 7:35:47 AM UTC-7 Tim Lorz wrote:

I found Albert's book on String telescopes on Abebooks, but unfortunately not the one on Newtonians.

https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=albert%20highe&cm_sp=det-_-bdp-_-author

Tim 

On Wed, Aug 4, 2021, 06:48 Ido Greiman <ido_g...@hotmail.com> wrote:

I'm looking to buy (or borrow, if someone is willing to) Albert Highe's book "Engineering, Design and Construction of Portable Newtonian Telescopes".

Planning to build a 16" telescope and it needs to be light and compact (as my back won't be able to handle it otherwise), so the classic design wont work. Albert's book will be a lifesaver.

I've already searched everywhere (including contacting Albert himself) and placed an ad on cloudy nights, but so far - no luck. Hoping maybe someone here can help.

Thanks!

Ido

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[Andrew F. Pierce]

I might have a copy, I will look when I get home

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[John Pierce]

i have that book.   in virgin like new condition.

whats it worth ?   660 something pages, hardcover.

 

[Akarsh Simha]

On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 11:56 John Pierce <jhn.p...@gmail.com> wrote:

i have that book.   in virgin like new condition.

whats it worth ?   660 something pages, hardcover.

They all sell for crazy amounts now that willmann-bell shut down .

 

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[Ido Greiman]

Checked around Cloudy Nights, and it seems it was last sold in September 2020 for $28 (another sell for $30 in April 2020).

I just purchased Albert's book on String telescopes on Cloudy Nights for $35 dollars (shipped from Florida).

Will $35 work? 

Let me know,

Ido

[slcd...@gmail.com]

I have that book and you can borrow it, with the promise you'll return it when you're done, if you haven't found another already.  I'm in Mountain View -- where are you, Ido?  We could meet somewhere half-way for the hand-off, or I could hand it to you at a dark sky site, or ship it.

 -- Dan Wright

[John Pierce]

On Thu, Aug 5, 2021 at 9:25 AM Ido Greiman <ido_g...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Checked around Cloudy Nights, and it seems it was last sold in September 2020 for $28 (another sell for $30 in April 2020).

I just purchased Albert's book on String telescopes on Cloudy Nights for $35 dollars (shipped from Florida).

Will $35 work? 

 upon rethinking things, I think I'm going to hang onto this for awhile longer.

[Bob Beaulieu]

Amazon Kindle is selling a set of 3 books for $99

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Albert G. Ingalls and 1 more

Amateur Telescope Making: Books 1, 2, and 3, Complete in 3 Volumes

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[Ido Greiman]

Thanks Bob, but these books are probably redundant as I already have Kriege's book "The Dobsonian Telescope". 

I am specifically interested in the design ideas from the "Engineering, Design and Construction of Portable Newtonian Telescopes", mostly because there's a whole section about building a 16" f/4.5 - which is exactly the one I am about to build.

Already built a 12" using the classic design, and it came out great, but it's right at the limit of what my back can carry without breaking, so I'll need to make the 16" as light as possible, hopefully without sacrificing too much, mechanically.

Hopefully I'll be able to get my hands on that book in some way, and get some ideas so I can finalize the plans and start building the 16".

[Mario Wolczko]

I wonder if the terms of Albert’s agreement with Willman-Bell allows him to have them reprinted by another publisher, or released as an e-book.
It would be very sad if the world was now limited to the extant volumes (which I say not just for Albert’s books, but for all the other excellent books they published).

[Bob Beaulieu]

Hi Ido,

I saw the 12” you built about a month ago at Monte Bello.  You did a great job putting it together and I worked great!  If I remember correctly, you got the 12 mirror from an older Meade telescope.   I’m sure you remember Scott who was also there with a 15” mirror with truss rods with fabric wrap around; the optics are on the top end and mirror on the bottom.  The setup was basically like yours but larger. His unit cost around $6k if I remember right, so it’s very expensive.  Having already built a 10” you should be able to make one with a 16” mirror.  The truss rods and fabric seem to be the way to go and would help reduce the weight by not having a huge tube.

Looking forward to seeing you at Monte Bello again soon.   Was planning on being there Friday but visibility was low because of smoke.  I have a permit for Saturday (today) as well but am not hopeful the smoke will go away.

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[John Pierce]

On Sat, Aug 7, 2021 at 12:30 AM Mario Wolczko <ma...@wolczko.com> wrote:

I wonder if the terms of Albert’s agreement with Willman-Bell allows him to have them reprinted by another publisher, or released as an e-book.
It would be very sad if the world was now limited to the extant volumes (which I say not just for Albert’s books, but for all the other excellent books they published).

just guessing, IANAL.

If Willmann-Bell is still in the courts, those publishing rights are assets unless the contracts with the writers said something else.    One way to get it republished is for the author to edit/write a second edition.  That would be, I suspect, unlikely

sigh, this Willmann-Bell book has prime stitched bindings, the Springer 'print on demand' 3 volume Luna Cognita, the binding isn't nearly as good, its glued.

thats these books, the top a 1983 vintage McGraw Hill textbook, the next Albert's treatise, and the bottom two 2 of the 3 volumes of Luna Cognita.

[Ido Greiman]

Mario - I actually contacted Albert a week ago and he hinted that there might be deal in progress for WB's publications, so at some point soon (not sure what soon means. Months? Years? who knows) these books will be available again.

Bob - Indeed. The 12" inch I build got it's mirrors from a Meade Lightbridge. 

I do remember Scott's scope. He has an Obsession 15" UC which I know quite well. I agree - this design is light (-ish, as Obsession use full 2" mirrors, very robust and heavy steel mirror cell, it adds quite a lot to the general weight), but it has some trade offs. For example, the UTA is a single ring and it can have some flex in it, depends on the material you use. Since I'm limited to wood (and since, about 15 years ago, I have built a telescope with a single ring as the UTA which had that tiny bit of flex in it), the only way to overcome that flex is to use a lot more material (thus add weight to that ring, which in turn changes the balance center of the telescope which in turn affects the placement of the side bearings... etc.) or go with a more rigid, two rings structure.

The telescope I built 15 years ago was a 13.1" ultra light telescope. It was based on a 3 poles design, just like Albert's scopes (though the design I copied was by an old friend who's been building similar scopes for 30 or more years), and it performs great, but it does have quite a lot of trade offs when it comes to vibrations, balancing with heavier eyepiece, etc.I have the blueprints I have made for that one, and I can easily adjust it to work for a 16", but I also want to fix some of the things that bothered me with that design all these years. 

John - It seems like all Willmann-Bell's books had the same premium bindings, which is why these books usually survive the test of time quite well!

[Mario Wolczko]

> On Aug 7, 2021, at 6:45 AM, Ido Greiman <ido_g...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Mario - I actually contacted Albert a week ago and he hinted that there might be deal in progress for WB's publications, so at some point soon (not sure what soon means. Months? Years? who knows) these books will be available again.

That’s very promising … fingers crossed that it comes to pass! Thanks for the update.

[Jamie Dillon, DDK]

Ido, you can see some of Albert's own 16" scopes around. I had Albert's 16", f/4.5 for some 4 years, Dan Wright has it now. Philip Manela also has a 16" that Albert built with the same design. Very handy with nesting tubes, and excellent contrast. Both those scopes will be at CalStar, and they show up at Montebello.

Albert Highe himself is a really good guy, easy to talk with and very helpful.

[Andrew Pierce]

I have the book, now does someone want to build me a 16 inch f/4.2 scope?

Andrew Pierce

On Aug 7, 2021, at 2:05 PM, Jamie Dillon, DDK <ngc1...@gmail.com> wrote:

Ido, you can see some of Albert's own 16" scopes around. I had Albert's 16", f/4.5 for some 4 years, Dan Wright has it now. Philip Manela also has a 16" that Albert built with the same design. Very handy with nesting tubes, and excellent contrast. Both those scopes will be at CalStar, and they show up at Montebello.

Albert Highe himself is a really good guy, easy to talk with and very helpful.

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[Ido Greiman]

Jamie - I just returned home after meeting Dan Wright (who was super nice, lending me the book I was looking for). He actually showed me the telescope you mentioned.

I had the chance to meet Albert back in 2010 during CalStar (which I'm looking forward to joining this year).

Andrew - I am definitely willing to discuss the matter of building you that telescope, but don't you want to wait and see how the ones I build for myself comes out first? ;P

That being said - if you're selling the book - I'll gladly buy it from you.

[John Pierce]

On Sat, Aug 7, 2021 at 2:44 PM Ido Greiman <ido_g...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Jamie - I just returned home after meeting Dan Wright (who was super nice, lending me the book I was looking for). He actually showed me the telescope you mentioned.

I had the chance to meet Albert back in 2010 during CalStar (which I'm looking forward to joining this year).

Andrew - I am definitely willing to discuss the matter of building you that telescope, but don't you want to wait and see how the ones I build for myself comes out first? ;P

That being said - if you're selling the book - I'll gladly buy it from you.

do you know about these guys ?  http://www.dobstuff.com/   they fab all the parts for 'albert style' scopes, both 3-tube and string (wire) stabilized versions, and will sell them as a kit, or as a complete scope using your optics.

[Ido Greiman]

Dobstuff has some pretty nice kits. Price is good too. If you have basic tools and knowledge - it's a pretty good deal.

For me - I enjoy the process of designing and building stuff, especially if I can tailor it for my needs.

[Les Niles]

I have a 17.5” Dobstuff.  It has several shortcomings that I am slowly finding time to address.  Some are due to the assembly — I bought it from the original builder and I think it would’ve come out better in the hands of someone with a bit more experience and patience.  But I also think the design has some limitations; mine has a a full-thickness mirror that seems too heavy for the 3-tube plus wire stabilizers structure.  (There's only a pair of wires, which is not a real string structure and allows more flex.)  Dennis also offers a classic 6-tube truss design which I think would work better for something this heavy. 

  -Les

[John Pierce]

I have a 20" f/5 Obsession classic.  The mirror is massive, and the mirror box weighs close to 100 lbs, but easily loads into a van or truck using the wheelbarrow handles and ramps.

because its so bottom heavy its extremely stable in use.    just a feather touch  on the upper rings to track smoothly, really easy to point and use.  the Obsession UC design is not as smooth, more prone to wobble.  Jamie's "Uncle Albert" was a joy to use.

[Ido Greiman]

John - This is not the first time I hear that the Obsession 20" UC is not as nice as the Classic (or even smaller UC). I've used 15" UC and 18" UC in the past, and I think the 15" UC performs flawlessly. The 18" a tiny bit less, but still pretty solid. Never had the chance to check a 20" UC, but it starting to sound like the bigger you go, the limitations (or flaws) of the design become more obvious.

That being said - many times, there is a simple solution that can either solve or at the very least drastically reduce the problem.   

Les - I've built a 13.1" 3 poles design scope about 15 years ago. It has a full-thickness mirror as well, which moves the center of mass a bit higher than I originally anticipated, and that flex issue is is present there as well. Not a deal breaker, but definitely annoying when compared to more solid builds.

I'm not sure what other shortcomings or issues you have, but I'll be happy to take a look and see if I can help you find a solution. Let me know.

[Pawan Singh]

I have a 2019 Obsession UC 22". It is solid and does not wobble. It is also very smooth and buttery push to. I just have to use "different" UTA weights depending on the eyepieces I use. Generally I tend to stick to one eye-piece for the night and that makes things a lot simpler.

I think Dave Kriege has made several changes over the years which made UC designs work better than previous ones. I do not know of the changes as I am not mechanically inclined - but on the Obsession news group, they have discussed these changes.

Only thing which people seem to complain about on UCs is the motorized option. This does not work well on these designs (based on just 1 data point at GSSP in 2019 :-) and the chatter on the Obsession news group in the past)

[Les Niles]

Ido, some additional eyes and experienced brain-storming would certainly be helpful.  Will you be at Calstar in October? 

Here are the major issues I’ve identified, roughly top to bottom:

The spider has three curved, thick vanes — no diffraction spikes, but it hurts contrast and is heavy.

The spider is attached to the single-ring UTA with small angle brackets, which don’t seem adequate for the weight of the spider and 3.5” secondary. 

The mirror box was poorly assembled.  It’s not as rigid as it could be and the altitude bearings aren’t well aligned.

The mirror cell is pretty primitive.  The edge supports are just three plastic screw points and they’re lower than the midpoint of the mirror.  (I think the cell is from the same Odyssey scope that was the source of the mirror blank.)

The rocker box is out of square.  (I think I did this by improper storage.)

As it is, contrast isn’t very good and the collimation can shift quite a bit as the elevation goes from vertical to near the horizon.  After addressing the above issues, I’ll be in a better position to evaluate whether the 3 pole structure is fundamentally strong enough for the 30+ lb mirror.

  -Les

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[Ido Greiman]

Les.

If all goes well, I am hoping to be at CalStar in October. Fingers crossed :)

I believe I can help fix some of these issues, but it would be best to see it in person, and see what I can do.

If you' plan on coming to CalStar with that scope, I believe it would be best if we could meet before, so I can hopefully help you with these issues before CalStar.