OR New Year's night, Pinnacles

[Jamie Dillon, DDK]

Surya and I met up at the west side of the Pinnacles to ring in the New Year on Wednesday night. He has a very slick 11” SCT with plate-solving and go-to hooked up, his own design. So twice recently I’ve met a new-to-me visual observer. And Vignesh whom I met in July is a starhopper.

It was cloudy at sundown; within a hour a swath of sky opened up to the east, some 60 degrees across, reaching to the zenith. So we had sky to work with. From home I’d only seen Aldebaran without the rest of the Hyades, for weeks, so wasn’t complaining.

That same clear patch, with the same size and shape, followed Orion around to the south by 10 pm. You tell me.

My Jo gave me a 20mm Pentax for Christmas. Had thought about getting a Pentax since 2000, looking thru Bobby Czerwinski’s set. Very patient waiting. This one fits neatly in the gap between the 16mm Koenig and the 24mm Panoptic. Plus it has the excellent contrast they’re known for. Scanned along the arm from delta to epsilon Cas; even with the reduced transparency, the dense starfield and open clusters in there looked tack sharp.

Jupiter was showing off the GRS, plus some big brown barges in the NEB. Saturn’s rings are even closer to edge-on. About the transparency, Dione was a ways to the west of the rings, could not pick it up.

M35 was particularly splashy in the 20mm, with ngc 2158 distinct in the background. Stop me if you know this, but they make a fascinating pair. 2158 is intrinsically bigger and brighter than M35, but 6 times farther away, 16,000 cf 2,800 lightyears. It’s up against the rim of the galactic disk. Like in a bunch of space operas, out toward the Rim.

In all, it was dark and peaceful with plenty of stars, and congenial company. We had fun looking at bright pretty objects. There were some coyotes singing atypically quietly around 11, and a couple of owls calling each other a bit later. It’s nice there.

[Akarsh Simha]

On Sat, Jan 4, 2025 at 8:32 PM Jamie Dillon, DDK <ngc1...@gmail.com> wrote:

Surya and I met up at the west side of the Pinnacles to ring in the New Year on Wednesday night. He has a very slick 11” SCT with plate-solving and go-to hooked up, his own design. So twice recently I’ve met a new-to-me visual observer. And Vignesh whom I met in July is a starhopper.

Fascinating, I'd have loved to see Surya's set up.

It was cloudy at sundown; within a hour a swath of sky opened up to the east, some 60 degrees across, reaching to the zenith. So we had sky to work with. From home I’d only seen Aldebaran without the rest of the Hyades, for weeks, so wasn’t complaining.

That same clear patch, with the same size and shape, followed Orion around to the south by 10 pm. You tell me.

My Jo gave me a 20mm Pentax for Christmas. Had thought about getting a Pentax since 2000, looking thru Bobby Czerwinski’s set. Very patient waiting. This one fits neatly in the gap between the 16mm Koenig and the 24mm Panoptic. Plus it has the excellent contrast they’re known for. Scanned along the arm from delta to epsilon Cas; even with the reduced transparency, the dense starfield and open clusters in there looked tack sharp.

I love my 20mm Pentax and use it heavily. I'm sure you will enjoy the eyepiece. I have many Pentax XW eyepieces (20, 5, 3.5) and love them all.

Regards

Akarsh

 

Jupiter was showing off the GRS, plus some big brown barges in the NEB. Saturn’s rings are even closer to edge-on. About the transparency, Dione was a ways to the west of the rings, could not pick it up.

M35 was particularly splashy in the 20mm, with ngc 2158 distinct in the background. Stop me if you know this, but they make a fascinating pair. 2158 is intrinsically bigger and brighter than M35, but 6 times farther away, 16,000 cf 2,800 lightyears. It’s up against the rim of the galactic disk. Like in a bunch of space operas, out toward the Rim.

In all, it was dark and peaceful with plenty of stars, and congenial company. We had fun looking at bright pretty objects. There were some coyotes singing atypically quietly around 11, and a couple of owls calling each other a bit later. It’s nice there.

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[Shashi Sathya]

Happy New Year to All TACo's.

Hopefully I will try and make it to Pinnacles next new moon barring weather. 

Cheers

Shashi.

[Surya Rao]

Nice OR Jaime! It was very nice to meet you and share the views through your fantastic 13inch dob.

Thanks,
Surya

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[Mark Wagner]

I'm curious about Surya's 11" SCT.  Why would a telescope be equipped with both plate solving and goto?

On Saturday, January 4, 2025 at 8:32:14 PM UTC-8 Jamie Dillon, DDK wrote:

[Jeff Crilly]

>
> On Jan 5, 2025, at 7:27 AM, Mark Wagner <itsmar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Why would a telescope be equipped with both plate solving and goto?

My take….

A) Goto is only accurate if the mount is very precise (across the whole sky) and also initialized appropriately.

B) Plate solving allows the mount to “know” where it’s pointing , very accurately, removing a bunch of problems from the mix.

The PiFinder uses plate solving to determine where a non-goto telescope is pointed. Adding this capability to a goto seems natural. (Tho afaik PiFinder doesn’t support goto mounts; at least not yet.).

It turns out those “smart telescopes” (the ones like the Seestar that only take pictures) have super simple mounts and use plate solving to “find their way”. It works surprisingly well and is super simple to use.

Ps.. it turns out all those ppl doing “modern” astrophotography are using plate solving to point their goto telescopes.

[Mark Wagner]

On 1/5/2025 08:44, Jeff Crilly wrote:

Ps.. it turns out all those ppl doing “modern” astrophotography are using plate solving to point their goto telescopes.  

Ah, thanks Jeff.  As a star-hopper it didn't make sense to me.  I take it then that Surya may have been imaging, which would also explain his viewing through Jamie's scope rather than his own.

The only plate solving I've seen in person was on Akarsh's 18", used for pointing for visual.

I've actually been considering writing a bit of (I think this is Akarsh's term) Philosophy Of Observing.  Basically, about star hopping (visual astronomy).  Reminds me a bit of my late friend Bill Meyers' philosophical entry in Adventures In Deep Space, conceptually.

Mark

[Surya Rao]

Agree with Jeff's comments. I have had several "go to" scopes in the past and all of them delivered mixed performance in terms of accuracy.

Basically I needed something that was accurate like platesolving (facial recognition for the sky, as Jamie Dillon says), and also provides the convenience of tapping an object on my tablet and having the scope slew to that location.

I found a combination that works by leveraging ASIAIR and AM5 mount along with a C11 and 60mm finder scope. The finder is connected to a ZWO ASI071 camera and helps platesolve for desired target. 

Apart from the wysiwyg nature of this setup, i found that i can easily log observations of the objects by taking images of interesting objects for records.

Surya.

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[Jamie Dillon, DDK]

To clarify, Surya is strictly a visual observer. He just doesn't like starhopping. Of course that brings our buddy Rashad Al Mansour to mind, who would say, "Starhopping gives me a headache."

Why I brought it up, except for Surya and Vignesh, whom I mentioned, all the observers I've gotten to meet lately have been imagers. Takes all kinds.

[Mark Wagner]

Thanks Jamie.  Maybe I'm missing something.  If Surya is not an imager and strictly visual (although he does mention taking a images for a record), then again, why add plate solving to a goto scope?  Isn't it effectively redundant?

As for Rashad's remarks (never heard the headache one) he regularly humorously called DSCs "guide dogs for the blind".

[John Pierce]

old school goto scopes used motors plus mechanical position encoders.     these have often proved less than reliable.

new school goto uses motors plus platesolving.   this is still somewhat experimental.

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[Mark Wagner]

Thanks John.  That tells me Surya probably does not use the goto system that (likely) came on the SCT.  Nobody clarified that before, if correct.  Reading that someone has both on the same scope seemed unnecessary/illogical.

Mark

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[Peter Santangeli]

For some purposes, plate solving and goto has become absolutely indispensable for imaging.

An example... This shot of the the seven sisters is a mosaic of 3 images. My scope is set up to sequentially take 3 shots of each required image and then 'goto' the next. It does it all night (actually for a few nights in this case). After each 'goto', it plate solves, and ensures that it is EXACTLY positioned in the right spot. If not, it solves and slews again. It almost always has to do this at least once.

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[Craig H]

Beautiful image of the Sisters. I always check them out at least once when observing.  Berkeley has been cloudy at night for what seems like weeks now. Waiting for a clear night!

Warm Regards,

Craig H

On Jan 5, 2025, at 16:34, Peter Santangeli <pe...@santangeli.net> wrote:

For some purposes, plate solving and goto has become absolutely indispensable for imaging.

An example... This shot of the the seven sisters is a mosaic of 3 images. My scope is set up to sequentially take 3 shots of each required image and then 'goto' the next. It does it all night (actually for a few nights in this case). After each 'goto', it plate solves, and ensures that it is EXACTLY positioned in the right spot. If not, it solves and slews again. It almost always has to do this at least once.

<image.png>

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[John Pierce]

Surya referenced the AM5, thats a ZWO 'harmonic drive" mount, https://www.zwoastro.com/product/zwo-am5n/  

and the ASIAIR which is a wireless controller for said AM5, https://www.zwoastro.com/product/asiair-mini/

so I assume the plate solving is via some software on a computer or tablet which is controlling the mount's interface.

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[Surya Rao]

That's correct. I am using zwo AM5 and ASIAIR (with the ASIAIR app).

Works beautifully.

Surya

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[Steve Winston]

And to clarify on:

>That tells me Surya probably does not use the goto system that (likely) came on the SCT.

Plate solving pretty much depends on goto to 1) get the scope to the initial vicinity of the terget, and then 2) to nudge the scope to the exact location and correct for any eror the platsolver finds after the initial goto.

If your goto is somewhat accurate you shouldn;t necessairly need to platsove, not for visual observing, but it does add that extra level of precision, and maybe for very faint targets ensures the target is really in the center of the field.

Surya - is this what you're doing? Or are you bypassing the mounts goto altogether?

  

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[John Pierce]

On Sun, Jan 5, 2025 at 6:30 PM Surya Rao <surya...@gmail.com> wrote:

That's correct. I am using zwo AM5 and ASIAIR (with the ASIAIR app).

Works beautifully.

so where does plate solving fit into that stack ?   (I am not familiar with the ZWO stuff) 

[Mark Wagner]

Steve,

The one encounter I had watching plate solving was at Akarsh 18" as a  push -to, plate solving and displaying in realtime on his computer by the scope  Did not depend on goto to get close.

That why I couldn't understand using both go-to and plate solving together for visual.

I guess I plate solve in my head. :-)

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[John Pierce]

yeah, give me a telrad and a decent chart with telrad circles, and I'm golden.

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[Surya Rao]

You got that right, Steve! 

The built in functionality of ZWO AM5 is to get to the vicinity of the object of interest, and then plate solve to center the object. My finderscope is equipped with the camera to "look" at the sky and help with platesolving.

The main scope (C11) if aligned will bring the same object into the field. It has helped me to view very faint objects which I otherwise might have missed easily. 

The nice thing is that for very faint DSOs, i can turn on livestacking on ASIAIR to view the details, while spending time observing through C11.

Surya.

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[Jeff Crilly]

Yeah… plate solving is basically “star hopping”… but automated.     

Recently (in the past few years) I’ve found my eyes get easily fatigued looking at a sky chart (dim computer) and then the eyepiece, such that when I’m at the eyepiece my eyes get very tired.   So these kind of helpers get me more eyepiece time!

1. Get basically pointed in the right direction.

2. Take a picture.

3. Match it up with a star database using a plate solver.

(The databases aren’t too large, and the algorithm runs within a few seconds)

4. The solver returns an RA/Dec which can then be fed into a goto as a sync .. ie the plate solver tells the mount “you are pointed to this RA/Dec”.

5. Given this refinement , goto the object we really want.

6. Take another image and plate solve, sync, and center the desired object.   Now it will be bang center in the eyepiece (assuming the eyepiece and the imaging camera are aligned). 

The PiFinder (I have on the 15” dob) does platesolving.   Sure, there is no goto… and I could have encoders.. but they don’t work on the obsession due to the way the altitude axis is setup.    The PiFinder has a tiny little display that tells me which direction to push the telescope, and takes pictures along the way, platesolving and updating how much I have to push.  

Fwiw even on the high end AP mounts the goto is only as good as polar alignment , orthogonality, operator headspace, etc.  Automated platesolving corrects for all that crap.  

Those really cheap Celestron department store telescopes these days have a thing called “Starsense” — which is just an app running on a smartphone using the camera to image the sky , platesolve, and help point the scope.  

Iirc with the AsiAir.. the platesolving imaging etc is done on the ASIAir and the tablet is just the UI for the code running on the ASIAir.   The ASIAir used to just be a raspberry pi but afaict ZWO since improved the architecture for performance.  

-jeff

[Mark Wagner]

Surya,

I realized tonight I'd seen a C11 at Coe a few months ago, an uncommon scope.  Then it dawned on me we'd met.  I recall you asking about NGC891.  Did you see it imaged but not visual that night?

[Surya Rao]

Mark,

You are correct. we met at Coe couple of months ago. I was looking for NGC891, but could not spot it that night.

Surya.

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[Paul Reid]

Happy New Year Jamie!

Sounds like an okay night and Surya’s setup with plate solving and go-to sounds interesting! Were you using your 13” scope? (Johannes)

Paul

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[Paul Reid]

Good info Jeff!

Paul

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[Alex]

Compared to the manual push PiFinder flow, the GoTo removes the uncertainty of the push direction and distance needed to center the target based on the last PS. As motors push angle change per second is a constant contrary to the human hand push. Thus less iterations for pointing. So the flow is fully automated as the typical GoTo but always precise due to Plate Solving verification. Issue a pointing command, wait for the beep, get to the EP.

[Paul Reid]

Excellent point Alex!

On Jan 7, 2025, at 11:25 AM, Alex <alex.k...@gmail.com> wrote:

Compared to the manual push PiFinder flow, the GoTo removes the uncertainty of the push direction and distance needed to center the target based on the last PS. As motors push angle change per second is a constant contrary to the human hand push. Thus less iterations for pointing. So the flow is fully automated as the typical GoTo but always precise due to Plate Solving verification. Issue a pointing command, wait for the beep, get to the EP.

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[mtoma...@comcast.net]

In Jeff's recent posting in this thread, he wrote:

"Those really cheap Celestron department store telescopes these days have a thing called 'Starsense' — which is just an app running on a smartphone using the camera to image the sky, platesolve, and help point the scope."

Recently, I considered buying on eBay a used one of those telescopes equipped with a "StarSense Explorer" mobile-phone bracket/mirror assembly, just for that assembly.  I contacted Celestron to confirm that, if you can prove to them that you have in your possession the bracket/mirror assembly (via a photo), they will provide to you a valid key code to activate the "StarSense Explorer" app on your mobile-phone.  I also confirmed that the "StarSense Explorer" bracket/mirror assembly currently is NOT sold as a separate, stand-alone accessory.  Finally, I also confirmed that Celestron's "StarSense Autoalign" accessory (https://www.celestron.com/products/starsense-autoalign/), compatible with many Celestron mounts, is also available in a version that is compatible with selected Sky-Watcher mounts (https://www.celestron.com/products/starsense-autoalign-for-sky-watcher-mounts/).  (Celestron and Sky-Watcher are owned by Santa.)

In the end, my spouse caught me eyeing that cheap 'scope on eBay and put a stop to that dalliance.  ;-)

For those of you wanting to play around with a "StarSense Explorer" system for cheap, consider inquiring with your local astronomy club to see what has been donated.  The Monterey Institute for Research in Astronomy ("MIRA", https://mira.org), with which my local club (https://mira.org/club) is associated, has all sorts of donated equipment (including an 8" SCT donated by a Beach Boy!).  But no "StarSense Explorer" system that I could see.  One of these days, MIRA may organize and catalog all of its donated equipment and offer it for sale for bargain-basement prices.  Lots of really good stuff there.  And several long-focal-length refractors from back in the day.

Mark T.

[Alex]

The StarSense Explorer (SSE) is limited by the smartphone camera specs. It's hard to predict the performance with a random smartphone, but in general, it leads to a rather low pointing accuracy. That might explain why Celestron is not rushing it in as a separate equipment. It wouldn't work well on a large scope with a smallish FOV. So it will be returned quickly and might cause bad publicity.

I have a similar PS implemented myself a few years back inspired by SSE. Just without the mirror gag (not needed actually). But the accuracy was a constant issue even with the great camera on Samsung phones, often more than 1 deg out of the FOV of my 12". "Wiggling method" works for bright DSO's though. But I can do better with just Telrad. 

BTW, I do have another similar project pending: rigging a better (but still inexpensive) external camera to a smartphone (A: over USB; B:over WiFi). Hope to have some tests done in a few weeks (hardware is here, but the app needs some tweaking).

[Akarsh Simha]

Mark,

Most go-to systems can be inaccurate. The plate-solving makes it more accurate. I plan for my 28" to be a plate-solved goto eventually. The hope is that I'll have an Arp galaxy centered in a 6mm eyepiece.

Regards

Akarsh

[Surya Rao]

I have a star sense explorer mobile phone mount if someone wants.

I tried using it with my 14 inch dob with reasonable success, but found pifinder to be better.

Surya

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[Rod Brown]

Regarding the StarSense app: 

Over the summer I had the opportunity to try it. A relative had received a gift of one of the Celestron Newtonians that come with it, and I helped her set up the telescope and the app using her iPhone. We were not doing any high-magnification viewing of sub-minute objects, but I found the app to work just fine. And at a star party this summer, I met a guy who was using the app with a homemade phone holder on his 12" Dob; he seemed happy with it, too.

But I will keep the potential variability between phones in mind. Our library (Nevada County Library) received a donation of two DX 100AZ refractors from Big 5 Sporting Goods, and I am helping get them set up for loan. We are planning to get a couple cheap smartphones to go with them as part of the loan so that the app can be used. I will be sure to test them in the field.

[John Pierce]

On Thu, Jan 9, 2025 at 7:51 AM Rod Brown <rodney....@gmail.com> wrote:

Regarding the StarSense app: 

Over the summer I had the opportunity to try it. A relative had received a gift of one of the Celestron Newtonians that come with it, and I helped her set up the telescope and the app using her iPhone. We were not doing any high-magnification viewing of sub-minute objects, but I found the app to work just fine. And at a star party this summer, I met a guy who was using the app with a homemade phone holder on his 12" Dob; he seemed happy with it, too.

But I will keep the potential variability between phones in mind. Our library (Nevada County Library) received a donation of two DX 100AZ refractors from Big 5 Sporting Goods, and I am helping get them set up for loan. We are planning to get a couple cheap smartphones to go with them as part of the loan so that the app can be used. I will be sure to test them in the field.

see if you can find used Google Pixel 6A's, thats 3 generations old and the budget version, but they have an awesome camera, including low light 'astro' modes. 

[Rod Brown]

Thanks for the recommendation, John.

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[Alex]

Good recommendation, John.

OTOH, the Camera[0] (used by CSSE, without regard to the Night Mode capability) on most smartphones is roughly the same 80 deg FOV type. That's the primary culprit here. The difference is created by deviations from that value (e.g. some older cameras are narrower at 70 deg, which is better) and by the random radial distortion of the lens along the attempt to compensate for it in software (or the lack of it). The good aperture of Pixel 6 cams would indeed help with shortening the PS frame stacking time (positive impact on PS), though it's also prone to more aberrations. Thus an older compatible phone with a more simple longer focal lens might surprisingly outperform Pixels here.

Finally, I don't know if Celestron continues investing into the app, but in theory they could start leveraging the Android Camera 2 API to use the telephoto lens when available (on high end phones). But I bet they are focusing on multi platform compatibility maintenance instead. Hmm, I might try that too.

[Rod Brown]

Thanks, Alex

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[John Pierce]

Fwiw, my new pixel 9pro has a 2nd camera with an optical 5x zoom.  But it's an expensive phone.