More Detail on Tesla Superchargers OPENING to ALL

37 views
Skip to first unread message

Steven Lough

unread,
Aug 5, 2021, 11:46:39 AMAug 5
to 'Jay Donnaway' via SEVA Email List
From CHARGED magazine:  This is a WIN WIN as I see it.

(
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/elon-musk-offers-more-details-about-the-opening-of-teslas-superchargers/
)

And GM, Ford, and all the rest don't even have to agree or be part of it.

--
Steven S Lough President Emeritus
Seattle EV Association
www.seattleeva.org
206 524 1351

Mark Yormark

unread,
Aug 5, 2021, 12:28:54 PMAug 5
to seva
Hi Steve,
I read the article and the idea of other EV manufacturers easily using the CCS enabled TESLA Superchargers by means of a TESLA app on a smart phone seems so simple.  But, the owners of TESLA vehicles definitely have a legitimate concern if other BEV manufacturers use will decrease the availability of SuperCharger dc fast charging.
The article also states that TESLA has the ability to adjust the cost for charging based on real time demand of Superchargers at particular locations.  This on demand manipulation of price will make charging more expensive which will encourage vehicles to spend less time charging or not charge at all.
By means of this  conditional price adjustment it would be easy for TESLA to charge a premium for non TESLA vehicles using the SuperCharging network.
Mark

--
Learn about EVs and EVents at: https://www.seattleeva.org
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "SEVA Email List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to SEVA_list+...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/SEVA_list/d7b4c6be-1b87-9c06-3fb2-ea6177292348%40centurylink.net.

Paul Kahle

unread,
Aug 5, 2021, 5:04:54 PMAug 5
to SEVA...@googlegroups.com
I certainly wouldn't want to see any tax money going to Tesla chargers until they "support ALL EVs"  that would include supporting CHAdeMO.  I believe there are still more cars driving around with CHAdeMO plugs than CCS plugs at this moment in time.

PK

On Thu, Aug 5, 2021 at 8:46 AM Steven Lough <steven...@centurylink.net> wrote:

Matt Simerson

unread,
Aug 5, 2021, 6:50:48 PMAug 5
to SEVA...@googlegroups.com
“support all EVs?” Nah.

The number of CHAdoMO plugs running around is irrelevant. Since Nissan announced dropping it, CHAdeMO is a dead standard in the USA. Besides, all them CHAdeMO equipped cars (one of which sits in my driveway) are city cars, ill suited to road trips because they charge too slow.

As much as Tesla has the superior connector, I’m in favor of tying federal funds to CCS compatibility. Then we will have a de facto nationwide standard and Tesla can provide CCS adapters at SCs. Tesla making their SCs CCS compatible seems likely tho pave the way toward an all-CCS future.

Matt

Paul Kahle

unread,
Aug 6, 2021, 5:39:16 PMAug 6
to SEVA...@googlegroups.com
The only reason these are "city" cars is because the infrastructure to support their longer trips is missing.  When Jay D. upgrades an old 2011 Leaf to a 200 mile per charge battery, how is that a "city" car?

The only reason the CHAdeMO format was adopted here was that the US car manufacturers, that dominated the SAE board establishing a North American standard for fast charging, deliberately stalled the creation of a standard.  They didn't want to create EVs and they wanted to punish those companies, like Nissan and Tesla, that went forward with their development plans.  If we discount the CHAdeMO generation of EVs we will be rewarding that attempt to stall EV development.  I can understand why Nissan and Mitsubishi are switching over to CCS but, unless there is some plan to convert the older CHAdeMO models, we need an infrastructure that continues to expand and accommodate them.

PK

Matt Simerson

unread,
Aug 6, 2021, 7:42:05 PMAug 6
to 'Grace' via SEVA Email List
On Aug 6, 2021, at 2:39 PM, Paul Kahle <kah...@gmail.com> wrote:

The only reason these are "city" cars is because the infrastructure to support their longer trips is missing.

The Leaf will never be more than a city/suburban car for several reasons:

1. (repeating) it charges too slowly
2. no active cooling, so fast charging will degrade the battery prematurely.
3. pack overheating after multiple DC fast charges See: nissan leaf road trips overheat

Also, expect slow charging BEVs to get additional "you're sitting on a parking spot for too long" fees. As they should.

When Jay D. upgrades an old 2011 Leaf to a 200 mile per charge battery, how is that a "city" car?

The choice of charging plugs on a homebrew BEV is up to the builder. 

The only reason the CHAdeMO format was adopted here was that the US car manufacturers, that dominated the SAE board establishing a North American standard for fast charging, deliberately stalled the creation of a standard.  They didn't want to create EVs and they wanted to punish those companies, like Nissan and Tesla, that went forward with their development plans.  If we discount the CHAdeMO generation of EVs we will be rewarding that attempt to stall EV development.

The past has already happened. If you're worried about rewarding legacy automakers past intransigence, then nuke the federal incentive structure that is currently rewarding them for being slow to market with their BEVs.

I can understand why Nissan and Mitsubishi are switching over to CCS but, unless there is some plan to convert the older CHAdeMO models, we need an infrastructure that continues to expand and accommodate them.

We don't need it. You want it. Most Leaf owners, myself included, acquired their Leaf knowing that it wouldn't ever be a good road tripper. 

Since CCS will be the standard, the onus is for Nissan to develop a CHAdeMO to CCS adapter for their legacy cars to charge at the newer stations.

Matt

Tim Economu

unread,
Aug 7, 2021, 1:11:28 PMAug 7
to SEVA Email List
I'm gonna have to disagree with Paul on this one, and agree with Steven, Mark and Matt. Chademo is a problem only for Nissan owners, why should Tesla have to support a dead connector? And why can't Nissan be responsible for making a converter cable?

Supporting CCS/Combo standard, as awful as that plug is (can anyone actually easily plug-in that thing?), is the proper way to go since all new cars but Tesla is using that connector.
And there would be a problem allowing access to ALL legacy cars on the supercharger network that would be alleviated by charging more per Marks suggestion..." By means of this  conditional price adjustment it would be easy for TESLA to charge a premium for non TESLA vehicles using the SuperCharging network."
As a Tesla owner, I like that suggestion, since even a higher charge cost would be in line with current pricing on Chargepoint/Blink/Electrify station pricing, and a higher rate would encourage owners (esp of slower charging vehicles) to stay at the station a minimum of time.
I do hope that Tesla, if they get the infrastructure billions, expand their network by a factor of 2, 3 or even more, which will make it possible for even 100 mile cars (that can charge quickly) to make long distances relatively quickly.
t

Ed Mills

unread,
Aug 7, 2021, 2:01:04 PMAug 7
to SEVA...@googlegroups.com
I bought a 2018 Leaf with the intention of using it primarily as an around-town car, and installed a JuiceBox Pro 40 in the garage. We're very satisfied with using it that way. (Actually, the FUV lives in the garage and the Leaf in the driveway...)
 
I've never really thought of it as a touring car. I'm fine with using it around town(s). My assumption is that longer range vehicles will become more available and economically priced over time. For now we also have a 2006 Scion xA that we use for driving to my mom's house in Oregon. We've thought of taking the Leaf, but never have.
 
Ed

From: seva...@googlegroups.com [mailto:seva...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim Economu
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2021 10:11 AM
To: SEVA Email List
Subject: Re: [SEVA] More Detail on Tesla Superchargers OPENING to ALL

Paul Kahle

unread,
Aug 10, 2021, 9:51:54 PMAug 10
to SEVA...@googlegroups.com
First, it's not just a Nissan problem since Mitsubishi and Kia both have sold cars with the CHAdeMO system installed and then several cars like my 2014 Toyota RAV4 EV have been retrofitted with CHAdeMO as it was the only system available back then.  So there are several hundred thousand cars in circulation that you are casually throwing out here.

I guess I'm a little disappointed that the EV community is so easy to divide and conquer.  We are not a big enough group that we can abandon so many and still be seen as a unified voice.

PK

Jay Donnaway

unread,
Aug 11, 2021, 2:43:57 AMAug 11
to SEVA...@googlegroups.com
Thank you Paul, 

I’m partial to CHAdeMO as the only V2G native standard, and still the only DCFC option for EV Conversions.  My Kia Soul EV was pulling up to 74 kW until Electrify America choked back their equipment to 50 kW maximum in the first round of their strategy to kill off the competing standard. 

Since CHAdeMO was the only DCFC adaptor that Tesla could manage to make for years, I certainly hope they will return the favor and permit legacy vehicles’ access to Superchargers.  This is an opportunity to grow the network and future customers for Tesla. 

As a former first day Model 3 depositor (where’s my $35k M3, eh?), I’ll be watching Tesla’s handling of the Supercharger access expansion very closely.

 -Jay Donnaway 


Mark Yormark

unread,
Aug 11, 2021, 12:31:23 PMAug 11
to seva
Actually ZERO EV does provide CCS dc fast charging using Orion2 battery management system,  but at that price CHAdeMO realistically becomes the only option. 
Yes I am sure TESLA could accommodate the CHAdeMO standard, but still I am concerned the DIY builds using CHAdeMO may be excluded from using TESLA's Supercharging network.  Let us hope not.
Mark Yormark

Jay Donnaway

unread,
Aug 11, 2021, 6:45:25 PMAug 11
to SEVA...@googlegroups.com
Indeed, 3300 GBP or $4500 for just the parts is a steep starting point. 
With the CCS and ChadeMo standards, I don't think there's any ability to add VIN-checking for eligibility the way Tesla Supercharging currently does. 
If the vehicle passes the handshake and voltage isolation tests, I'm optimistic that it would be allowed to charge, DIY or not. 

Now if Elon revisits his elitist past and starts blacklisting accounts for being outed as a modified vehicle model or EV conversion (or a conversion in flames at a Supercharger hits the Evening News), then we'd have cause to worry. 

-Jay


-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Yormark <mark.y...@gmail.com>
To: seva <SEVA...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Aug 11, 2021 9:31 am
Subject: Re: [SEVA] More Detail on Tesla Superchargers OPENING to ALL

Matt Simerson

unread,
Aug 17, 2021, 1:57:10 PMAug 17
to 'Grace' via SEVA Email List

> On Aug 10, 2021, at 6:51 PM, Paul Kahle <kah...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>I guess I'm a little disappointed that the EV community is so easy to divide and conquer.

Betamax, anyone?

I find it highly amusing that by rallying toward a unified standard (CCS), some would get accused of division.

It seems a universal truism that to get to unity, some will have to compromise. I have zero CCS compatible cars, and I favor Tesla's plug, yet I'm advocating for CCS because its the only standard that has a chance at becoming The Standard in the USA. Arriving at a universal standard for DC fast charging will greatly simplify charging for the masses and be far more beneficial to the EV community than bickering about maintaining support for dead standards.

Matt

Tim Economu

unread,
Aug 17, 2021, 3:47:10 PMAug 17
to SEVA Email List
" I guess I'm a little disappointed that the EV community is so easy to divide and conquer.  We are not a big enough group that we can abandon so many and still be seen as a unified voice."

Paul,
I'm not sure what you are hearing. I don't think anyone wants to divide here. I think we all want the same thing, a DCFC charging port and a charging method standard. So do you...right? Now if we agree on that, it's a simple job of who makes the adapters. I would hope and expect that the car makers (all of them that want to make EV's) will pony up and make adapters for CCS. Just roll up and plug in, just like a fossil car at the pump. Roll up, plug in, wave your CC if you must (I'd rather it be on file like the excellent supercharger network) and go check your email, and be on your way. Whether you have a conversion, or factory EV.
If that's not a unified voice....maybe you can elucidate what that would look (or sound) like?

And Jay your 35k Tesla is available now. You can buy a M3 now for $35, 690 on their website today. Just think how low they would be if they still had the incentive!!!
t
image_2021-08-17_124458.png

Steve Tracy

unread,
Aug 17, 2021, 10:35:00 PMAug 17
to SEVA...@googlegroups.com
That price is confusing. Notice the asterisk. Potential saving???
Following the asterisk the potential saving is "Gasoline savings"
What the heck does that mean?


dave barden

unread,
Aug 17, 2021, 11:08:24 PMAug 17
to SEVA...@googlegroups.com
that means Tesla is taking the money you won't be spending on gas and deducting it from the price of the car.  The car's price is probably closer to $38,000 before tax and license.  I bet you can't get one out the out the door in a color you like for less than $45k😁

Offgrid Systems - tim

unread,
Aug 17, 2021, 11:34:08 PMAug 17
to SEVA...@googlegroups.com

Ah the fine print. Still a deal at under $40k. If we had the incentives still on Tesla (common Biden) the price would be under Jay's price point!

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "SEVA Email List" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/SEVA_list/VTOqdyISIzs/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to SEVA_list+...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/SEVA_list/MW3PR19MB43776E3C2C250136649E755DC7FF9%40MW3PR19MB4377.namprd19.prod.outlook.com.

Jay Donnaway

unread,
Aug 21, 2021, 12:51:21 AMAug 21
to SEVA...@googlegroups.com
Amused to see that Tesla is still baiting buyers with that fake purchase price.  Yup, a $35k model 3 with a $7500 tax credit was my purchase requirement.  Glad I bought the stock instead of the car in early 2019.   Just wish I had plowed more of my cheaper-EV savings into the stock back then!!!

-Jay

Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages