Cash Money For Your Opinion (Not Spam)
Alaric Fox
Last game, I heard several people talking about getting rid of cash item cards. I (personally and as an AST) think they are more work than needed for our game.
So, I propose that we [Secundus Surrectum] change our "accounting methods" as follows:
We [Staff] will keep track of a line item for "Cash Reserves" in each character's Notes section. PCs (active or downtime) will receive 1/2 of the Resources Income for every game for which the Player submits a downtime for that PC. Even if it's just "Watch All & Collect Ca$h".
Players can always request Cash item cards, and Staff will just deduct the amount transferred to a card from the Character Sheet Line Item. Players can also turn in Cash cards and have the amount added to their sheets.
Any comments?
--alaric
Bryan Himebaugh
I would not want the hassle of waiting for Staff to transfer line items from one person's sheet to mine. Also, if I visit another game, I would prefer the item card to present to the STs or player if trading.
It also provides the "hazard" of losing said item card, which should be a real concern IC.
Bryan
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Alaric Fox
Player -- Submit Downtime
Staff -- Add 1/2 Resources Income to sheet (once per downtime period, of course)
Player -- At Game, ask for cash Item card if desired (any time, not just at the start of the first game of the month)
Players can do whatever with their item cards.
Players can turn in cash item cards if desired, and the value will be added to their sheet.
Basically, nothing would change for players who want cash item cards, just Staff would be offering to keep track of total cash for players who don't want to keep cards.
Personally, I think it would improve game flow if everybody got their Resources off line, but only had to take game time if they want it on a card.
BTW, I do share your "IC Hazard" concern, but (at least the way we play now), it's not realistic. If every player kept an [accurate] wallet with exactly what is or is not on the PC's person, it would be an interesting mechanic, but (from what I've seen in 2.5 years), that isn't the way we play. Definitely worth a separate discussion (b/c it would involve all items carried, not just cash).
--alaric
Bryan Himebaugh
I am also of the opinion that item cards should not be on a character sheet. They should also be cards, for the same reason. In a combat situation, I can visibly see if a player is holding an index card. I can then ask what the card is. If they have the item only on the sheet, it makes it difficult to see that Tim Toreador is holding a flaming katana and they may be overlooked in lieu of another target.
Bryan
Devin Jones
Alaric Fox
to running the game the way *the players* play, not the way any
particular player wishes the other players to play. The reality is that
players use/transfer cash item cards <<< (much less than) they receive them.
I agree with you 100% about keeping cards (and, I assume, buttons,
labels, or whatever else helps other players understand a scene). But
that's way beyond what I'm asking about here.
All I'm asking about in *this* thread is whether or not players would
rather the STs just add Resources income to sheets (when processing down
times), and let the PCs decide when/if to transfer it to a card
(implying that the PCs physically has the $ on their persons). My
opinion is that if it's on your sheet, it's in your bank, and if it's on
your card, it's where you put the card. And my experience is that most
players don't use their cash *during live play*. Players can get, say,
a $1000 cash card one session and keep that for several sessions (or
however long until used), but not need to take time every other game to
get cards that won't be used.
Bryan Himebaugh
I gave you my opinion. I am one of the players. If you do not wish opposing opinions, do not ask for them.
For your comment about realism/realistic, I know from personal observation - three of the largest item card holders (Devin, Sarah and Jared) sort their cards into items they have on their person, things they have in their vehicles, and things at home. I've seen them do so. You are indicating that people wander about with a bag of holding and countless items. If that is the case, then it is /your/ responsibility as a Storyteller to nix that sort of behavior.
In your limited perception, you see folks transferring money much less than they use them. In my experience, when I get items, I am often handing them around at other games, or being loaned some from people.
Your experience is limited to this game, and the Anarch satellite game. I am speaking as a player who has had experience in this since 2001, and experience in other games outside of Phoenix.
Bryan
Mark Lucky
Personally, I like the short idea. 4 several reasons thats I don't have time to type on my phone.
Mark Lucky
US 2002-02-3568
Bryan Himebaugh
As per the OWbN Administrative Bylaws located at http://www.oneworldbynight.org :
8. Administrative Responsibilities
C. Item Cards
i. As of May 12th, 2003, no item card shall be valid for play in OWBN unless it has clearly written or stamped on it the date on which this approval was given, the name and chronicle of an OWBN ST who has approved it and will take responsibility for its existence in the network.
ii. The ST who originally approves an item card for play in OWBN may be held accountable to Council for its existence. Items that may be more then they appear should have distinct marking instructing the user to contact that ST for further information or simply limit the use of the item to their own chronicle.
iii. STs may refuse to allow cards they do not approve of to enter play in their game. If an ST feels that a card may be very damaging to the network, he or she may confiscate the card from the visiting player, and return it directly to the responsible STs.
We need them to be signed, stamped and dated as to when they were issued.
Bryan
Mark Lucky
Bryan, let me be clear.
I am fully in support of item cards and am with you on that 100%.
But the main topic proposed here is the ability to place 'banked' CASH in reserve on the character sheet.
NOT Item Cards.
It provides a safe(ish) place for your cash (like we use banks or a secret stash at home).
But such things are still not fully safe as they can be stolen (and now in all new ways, such as those suited to the Ventrue and other Influence monkeys).
Yet they are also still accessible to the character (if they are willing to spend the IC time going to an ATM or home).
Mark Lucky
US 2002-02-3568
Bryan Himebaugh
Again, I would rather have the item cards available to me.
I would not ICly be walking around with 50,000 dollars. But much like other players with scads of item cards, I would have the "wads" of cash stored in a place to indicate they are not on my character's person.
And the topic /IS/ about item cards. Currently cash is handled by item cards. This is a discussion on changing that. There are no bylaws/rules indicating a difference between money on hand, and money in the bank.
The closest thing to that is the part in Laws of the Night where it indicates the "cash value" listed is money for spending and what not. It also indicates that by spending permanent resources, you can get ten times that value at the cost of those resources points. See page 105 for that...
Bryan
Alaric Fox
Thank you for sharing your opinions and reasons. I did not mean for you
take my discussing them with you as discounting them. And, to be clear,
I'm not being sarcastic or anything.
--alaric
Mark Lucky
Please see below for individual responses.
Mark Lucky
US 2002-02-3568
On Jun 2, 2011 9:09 AM, "Bryan Himebaugh" <bryan.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Mark,
>
> Again, I would rather have the item cards available to me.
Fair, your preference. Can't argue there.
>
> I would not ICly be walking around with 50,000 dollars. But much like other players with scads of item cards, I would have the "wads" of cash stored in a place to indicate they are not on my character's person.
Do you mean physically stored Oocly? If so, cool I can go with that. If you mean to say that you carry the cash cards around with you but say they are not on your person, I wonder if that is mentioned on that cash card.
>
> And the topic /IS/ about item cards. Currently cash is handled by item cards. This is a discussion on changing that. There are no bylaws/rules indicating a difference between money on hand, and money in the bank.
No. I mean to say that we are talking about cash .. not equipment.
Guns, swords, prize gifts you received, and jingle bells belong on item cards, as well as cash (which you carry on hand).
But I don't see why money keep safely tucked away in a bank vault must be written on a card when it can be just as easily placed on the sheet.
>
> The closest thing to that is the part in Laws of the Night where it indicates the "cash value" listed is money for spending and what not. It also indicates that by spending permanent resources, you can get ten times that value at the cost of those resources points. See page 105 for that...
... okay, what does that have to do with it? That is in no way being questioned. What was your point there?
-Mark Lucky
Bryan Himebaugh
> Again, I would rather have the item cards available to me.
Fair, your preference. Can't argue there.
I agree, you cannot argue that I prefer this. :) This was opened as a discussion about what people want. I have given my answers, and have been questioned regarding them.
> I would not ICly be walking around with 50,000 dollars. But much like other players with scads of item cards, I would have the "wads" of cash stored in a place to indicate they are not on my character's person.
Do you mean physically stored Oocly? If so, cool I can go with that. If you mean to say that you carry the cash cards around with you but say they are not on your person, I wonder if that is mentioned on that cash card.
> And the topic /IS/ about item cards. Currently cash is handled by item cards. This is a discussion on changing that. There are no bylaws/rules indicating a difference between money on hand, and money in the bank.
No. I mean to say that we are talking about cash .. not equipment.
Guns, swords, prize gifts you received, and jingle bells belong on item cards, as well as cash (which you carry on hand).
But I don't see why money keep safely tucked away in a bank vault must be written on a card when it can be just as easily placed on the sheet.
Having a stamped, signed and dated item card is in accordance with the bylaws.
> The closest thing to that is the part in Laws of the Night where it indicates the "cash value" listed is money for spending and what not. It also indicates that by spending permanent resources, you can get ten times that value at the cost of those resources points. See page 105 for that...
... okay, what does that have to do with it? That is in no way being questioned. What was your point there?
Well, it was a continuation of the previous paragraph/statement. If you pull it separate it makes less sense.- but the crux of it seems to indicate that liquidating your assets (cleaning out your banked income) is congruent with spending permanent resources.
Bryan
Mark Lucky
Mark Lucky
US 2002-02-3568
On Jun 2, 2011 9:38 AM, "Bryan Himebaugh" <bryan.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Mark,
>>
>> > Again, I would rather have the item cards available to me.
>>
>> Fair, your preference. Can't argue there.
>
>
> I agree, you cannot argue that I prefer this. :) This was opened as a discussion about what people want. I have given my answers, and have been questioned regarding them.
I think 'questioned' seems a little harsh. I think of this as two people explaining what they like and don't like about something so that we can understand eachother's point and come to a compromise or other agreement. If you feel that you being berated for having a viewpoint banter, then please allow me to apologize and may I suggest we step back from the discussion?
>
>> > I would not ICly be walking around with 50,000 dollars. But much like other players with scads of item cards, I would have the "wads" of cash stored in a place to indicate they are not on my character's person.
>>
>> Do you mean physically stored Oocly? If so, cool I can go with that. If you mean to say that you carry the cash cards around with you but say they are not on your person, I wonder if that is mentioned on that cash card.
>
> Physically and OOC should be the same. For instance, I know Jared has a case for his item cards. I have seen him take out the cards he has on his person and put them in a pocket, then explain to the ST that the cards in the case were elsewhere (in his his car, haven, what have you.)
Yes, I do the same. I can see your point here.
>
>>
>> > And the topic /IS/ about item cards. Currently cash is handled by item cards. This is a discussion on changing that. There are no bylaws/rules indicating a difference between money on hand, and money in the bank.
>>
>> No. I mean to say that we are talking about cash .. not equipment.
>>
>> Guns, swords, prize gifts you received, and jingle bells belong on item cards, as well as cash (which you carry on hand).
>> But I don't see why money keep safely tucked away in a bank vault must be written on a card when it can be just as easily placed on the sheet.
>
> Again, the current procedure is to have these as item cards. If we move it to a sheet, and someone goes to a different game - the sheet information may not be allowed by the home STs.
>
> Having a stamped, signed and dated item card is in accordance with the bylaws.
Yes, but there really is no difference. An ST can, by your own admission a few emails back, disallow any item they wish. One must wonder, however, why an ST would trust and allow use of abilities, lore, and disciplines on a sheet but not 'banked' resources when the entire sheet is signed off on by the ST.
>>
>> > The closest thing to that is the part in Laws of the Night where it indicates the "cash value" listed is money for spending and what not. It also indicates that by spending permanent resources, you can get ten times that value at the cost of those resources points. See page 105 for that...
>>
>> ... okay, what does that have to do with it? That is in no way being questioned. What was your point there?
>
>
> Well, it was a continuation of the previous paragraph/statement. If you pull it separate it makes less sense.- but the crux of it seems to indicate that liquidating your assets (cleaning out your banked income) is congruent with spending permanent resources.
True, or selling off your personal holdings by which one judges your net worth. Again, I see no issue here.
Since it appears that we both see differently on the topic, what about allowing the player make the choice if he wishes to place banked funds on his sheet (which must require IC actions and time to acquire without prior notice) or to keep the funds in 'wads of cash' as you put it?
-Mark Lucky
Bryan Himebaugh
I think 'questioned' seems a little harsh. I think of this as two people explaining what they like and don't like about something so that we can understand eachother's point and come to a compromise or other agreement. If you feel that you being berated for having a viewpoint banter, then please allow me to apologize and may I suggest we step back from the discussion?
I don't think it seems harsh. I was asked questions regarding my stance, ergo I was questioned. If you are reading something into it, then that's your spin on it.
If/when I feel berated, it will become blindingly apparent. :D
Yes, but there really is no difference. An ST can, by your own admission a few emails back, disallow any item they wish. One must wonder, however, why an ST would trust and allow use of abilities, lore, and disciplines on a sheet but not 'banked' resources when the entire sheet is signed off on by the ST.
Yes they can, there are rules in the bylaws for that. Just as there are rules in the bylaws requiring specific things be set for item cards. That being said, in a standard character sheet there isn't a money attribute - it's really a gray area that I feel belongs under equipment. Which leans towards item cards in my perception.
Since it appears that we both see differently on the topic, what about allowing the player make the choice if he wishes to place banked funds on his sheet (which must require IC actions and time to acquire without prior notice) or to keep the funds in 'wads of cash' as you put it?
I'm rather against two different things. Either one or the other - as to avoid confusion and spare the STs the headache. Item cards alleviate the headache because the onus falls on the player to keep the item card safe, and make sure it gets updated when they want their resources.
Bryan
Sarah Himebaugh
card is best, as it complies with the bylaws, and other games may
choose to reject items on a sheet based on their being on a sheet
instead of an item card, rather than on their validity, unlikely as I
consider that possibility.
I think item cards are important because they allow a free exchange of
money, since I can hand the card to someone else, destroy it, or lose
it...I think it's a good way to reflect the simultaneously very
valuable and entirely worthless aspect of cash to vampires. When you
need it you need it, but sometimes it's just wastepaper.
Also, keeping a level of player responsibility in regards to
collecting the money, and keeping track of the cards helps the money
retain it's value, conversely. You need to make sure you have it or
if something comes up you might have to do something more drastic like
expending permanent resources...using cards allows the possibility of
unexpected scarcity if we as players aren't on top of things with
them, and maintaining that level of risk is valuable.
Sarah
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Aaron Jones
Bryan Himebaugh
Then to add to it - let's do away with social consequences. If my PC is a hyper genius, and I say something so absurdly daft as to get me in trouble - I cannot back out and say, but my PC wouldn't say that. That's not how it works with players who have been in the game for a while. I know it's an over-exaggeration of the situation, but it's in the same general vein.
Now, I will be first to admit to trying to give new players a lot of leeway (see the original house rules about new players being given Common Sense for free) - but people who have played the game for a while are held accountable for their actions.
I've lost item cards. It sucks. I had to dealt with it, and had to go about trying to get another warded knife made IC. It made for some interesting roleplay at that point, explaining what happened to that knife.
As to getting with the STs, I cannot always do that between games. Rob lives in Scottsdale, where I live at the bottom edge of Gilbert. We have different work schedules, and it's not feasible to get my item cards before going to game.
Also, each entry on the sheet would need to be dated. Can you imagine how long of a list that's going to be after a while, in terms of printing out sheets?
Bryan
Zero Seven
Bryan Himebaugh
It is dots on a sheet. It's under Resources.
And it's not about making it easier, if the easier solution goes against the rules of the Organization. We follow the rules, or we're technically cheating. It's part and parcel of being a part of the organization.
Bryan
Mark Lucky
See below.
Mark Lucky
US 2002-02-3568
>
> I've lost item cards. It sucks. I had to dealt with it, and had to go about trying to get another warded knife made IC. It made for some interesting roleplay at that point, explaining what happened to that knife.
That's a knife. You should pay better attention to where you put it. I've done the same. I've lost valuable stuff too.
But this is money. Something that can be kept for me by the bank so that I don't lose it (when it is on the sheet).
>
> As to getting with the STs, I cannot always do that between games. Rob lives in Scottsdale, where I live at the bottom edge of Gilbert. We have different work schedules, and it's not feasible to get my item cards before going to game.
So do as everyone else does. Send in a downtime about the transfer and get the card when you go to game.
>
> Also, each entry on the sheet would need to be dated. Can you imagine how long of a list that's going to be after a while, in terms of printing out sheets?
You can consolidate on cards, why not on the sheet?
The latest amount in the bank and as of what date that is.
>
> Bryan
>
Bryan Himebaugh
>That's a knife. You should pay better attention to where you put it. I've done the same. I've lost valuable stuff too.
>But this is money. Something that can be kept for me by the bank so that I don't lose it (when it is on the sheet).
How are you going about it? It's hard to open an account without going to the bank at night... and without a proper ID (crazy elders and their old ways!) And you'd better hope that bank doesn't get robbed. Or you'd better have an explanation as to how you're getting money out of a bank during the late hours (ATMs have about a 500$ limit or some such, and multiple withdrawls can freeze your account.) Sure, a ghoul could stand in for you - but shouldn't that be on the Ghoul's sheet then? What happens if they get mowed down in a gang fight?
Explanations can be done for losing "cash" item cards just as easily. And the pitfalls are just as plentiful for doing so.
>So do as everyone else does. Send in a downtime about the transfer and get the card when you go to game.
> Also, each entry on the sheet would need to be dated. Can you imagine how long of a list that's going to be after a while, in terms of printing out sheets?
>You can consolidate on cards, why not on the sheet?
>The latest amount in the bank and as of what date that is.
Bryan
Zero Seven
|
Ahh, no -- "Resources" is dots on a sheet. There are dozens of other ways to get cash; all of the Influence methods, for example. "Current cash on hand" however is not a "dots on your sheet". For the simple, expedient reason that if I as a PC go and mug a guy during game, I just got cash. Not dots on a sheet. The shirt on my back *can* be an item card -- but usually *isn't*. It's never dots on a sheet though. That's somewhat a pure semantics item, but it's worth considering for the scale of importance here.
As to the solutionspaces being explored here, I'm not aware that anything is violating the Bylaws as you yourself quoted -- especially not as modified by myself. We're preserving the use of item cards and thereby preserving interoperability between chronicles, regardless of whether the suggested change is implemented or not. I definitely understand the qualm of not wanting to break with the Org -- and I can *definitely* appreciate the desire for uniformity of rulesets between chronicles (it's a major PITA to have to learn the ropes at each game.)
As I said; I don't really have a horse in this race. Personally speaking, I can see for-and-against arguments under my own criteria for this action. Since I can't really contribute any further and you seem to be firmly entrenched in your position, this topic has exceeded my investment threshold. :)
-- Ian. |
Aaron Jones
Mark,Yep. And you should pay attention to where you deposit your money.
>That's a knife. You should pay better attention to where you put it. I've done the same. I've lost valuable stuff too.
>But this is money. Something that can be kept for me by the bank so that I don't lose it (when it is on the sheet).
How are you going about it? It's hard to open an account without going to the bank at night... and without a proper ID (crazy elders and their old ways!) And you'd better hope that bank doesn't get robbed. Or you'd better have an explanation as to how you're getting money out of a bank during the late hours (ATMs have about a 500$ limit or some such, and multiple withdrawls can freeze your account.) Sure, a ghoul could stand in for you - but shouldn't that be on the Ghoul's sheet then? What happens if they get mowed down in a gang fight?
Explanations can be done for losing "cash" item cards just as easily. And the pitfalls are just as plentiful for doing so.And if game is between two games? How does that make sense? Send an email to the list, and pickup my item card at game... that occurred after the game I was intending to visit... if I have a pre-planned attendance, that's possible. However not all visits to LA have been pre-planned.
>So do as everyone else does. Send in a downtime about the transfer and get the card when you go to game.
> Also, each entry on the sheet would need to be dated. Can you imagine how long of a list that's going to be after a while, in terms of printing out sheets?
>You can consolidate on cards, why not on the sheet?
>The latest amount in the bank and as of what date that is.Each line amount on the card is to be dated and initialed. You consolidate on one card, but not one amount.
Actually i have a card that is one consolidated account, and changes on a PC sheets in grapevine are just as easily auditable as signed cards. the paperwork trail remains just as viable.The suggested solution is fully legal by org rules, and is MUCH simpler for quite a few of us. it doesn't hurt you at all, you can keep doing things the exact same way you always have, it simply allows some of us to focus less on ooc mechanics and more on having fun at game. I'm all for it.
Devin Jones
Devin
Bobby Fry
$100,000 to change your mind."
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Bobby Fry
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