Re: [S67 Public] Cross Walk Project

[Charles Allhands]

What's the problem with the current design?

        -Charles

On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 2:57 PM, Mike Fisher <mi...@heartwood.com> wrote:

 

IMPROVING MADISON'S PEDESTRIAN CROSSWALKS

Cheryl Wittke of Safe Communities of Madison-Dane County is looking for 3D makers(like the Sector67 folks) who are interested in improving current pedestrian crosswalk flag holders around the city. Cheryl's group maintains about 50 pedestrian crosswalks throughout the city, which translates to approximately 100 holders (one on either side of the street). For more information contact Cheryl at the address below.

Cheryl Wittke

cwi...@safercommunity.net

www.safercommunity.net/

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[Dougal]

That was my thought too. It's hard to think of an improvement for a pipe on a stick that would be worth waiting for 100 to print...

[Grant Dobbe]

It's confusingly written, that's for sure. I'd think most of the improvements you could make would not involve a 3D printer.

Grant Dobbe
http://grant.dobbe.us
+1-608-469-9907

[Chris Meyer]

3D *makers*, nothing in there about printers guys.  

Looks like the flags are a PITA to make and maintain:

http://www.safercommunity.net/images/PDFs/CrosswalkFlagAssembly.pdf

Chris

[Steven Faulkner]

I'm still trying to figure out how to make things in 2D. 3D making sounds hard.

-Steve

[Micah Erickson]

what about a flag on a zip-line that people can draw across with them via a string and auto-retracts?

Micah Erickson, Ph.D.
COO, C-Motive Technologies Inc.
541-908-0669(cell) 
2100 Winnebago St. Ste 102
Madison, WI 53704

[Chris Meyer]

Semi's or double decker busses would love those :-)  

How about 3 bluetooth low energy receivers, one on the adjacent pole, one above, and one on the opposite poles with flashing lights, a battery, and a small solar panel?  I don't think this could be cost competitive without major quantity though - sticks are cheap.

Chris

[Grant Dobbe]

What about a solid "flag" instead of a fabric one?

Cut a slit in the top of the handle, mount the flag inside, secure it with a screw. Paint everything in obnoxiously bright colors and add hi-viz tape, and you're good to go.

[James Luscher]

It sounds like they are holding the fabric to the stick with staples - but that concentrates the forces at point locations making tears more likely.  Why not lay a bead of waterproof glue (or silicone caulk?) along the edge of the flag and wrap it around the stick - evenly distributed forces should make it more resistant to tearing off.

 ----

“Almost everyone who has had an idea that’s somewhat revolutionary 

 or wildly successful was first told they were insane.”

-- Larry Page, Google CEO 

[Charles Allhands]

I think this is more of a social problem than an engineering one. Drivers don't stop because they are ignorant of traffic laws pertaining to pedestrians, they know the laws regarding pedestrians are rarely enforced, and they have a general disdain for pedestrians. Not seeing the person is rarely the reason they don't stop (does a tiny red flag really make them easier to see anyway? Why not reflective, fluorescent yellow?).

There are of course some engineering solutions to this problem (camera enforcement, self-driving cars, flashing lights, etc.) but they don't come cheap (read nearly free) which of course means they are impossible to implement. That is also the reason they are asking us instead of hiring professionals to solve the problem. Unless we can come up with a cheaper pipe they probably won't be interested in any solution we have.

            -Charles

[Micah Erickson]

ok, I got it.  How about a fake brick wall facade that the pedestrian walks behind.  Who would try to run that down with their car?

Micah Erickson, Ph.D.
COO, C-Motive Technologies Inc.
541-908-0669(cell) 
2100 Winnebago St. Ste 102
Madison, WI 53704

[Grant Dobbe]

There are sets of flashing lights at two crosswalks I regularly frequent. (E. Johnson and 4th Street is the one closest to S67). You hit the button, the lights flash brightly, and drivers heading toward the intersection are now aware that someone is trying to cross. And people do slow down. The flags are just a low-tech version of this. 

[James Luscher]

Something England tried was to change to lane markers to pre-warn drivers of a crossing.

When the Beatles crossed Abbey Road the lane markers were straight...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-rFWFOzElXCs/T_tHtWrnUwI/AAAAAAAABpw/ORXcUwTpRSA/s1600/beatles+crossing.jpg

Now, they are the new English 'standard' of zig-zag lines as you approach a crossing:

http://www.iol.co.za/polopoly_fs/iol-travel-oct-16-abbey-road-1.1404267!/image/625626089.jpg_gen/derivatives/box_300/625626089.jpg

 ----

“Almost everyone who has had an idea that’s somewhat revolutionary 

 or wildly successful was first told they were insane.”

-- Larry Page, Google CEO 

[Bob Baddeley]

What happened to looking both ways before crossing a street? Why can't people take more responsibility for their own safety and well being and make sure it's ok to cross first? The only evidence I've found on the flag effectiveness is here: http://onlinepubs.trb.org/onlinepubs/nchrp/nchrp_rpt_562.pdf (Page 19).

[Grant Dobbe]

You've never crossed Regent Street at 5pm on a weekday. If you were to wait until there was a reasonable opening in traffic, you'd be waiting for 20 minutes. 

[Charles Allhands]

Whatever happened to drivers following basic traffic laws? This is a good example of what I mentioned before, many drivers simply have a disdain for pedestrians. 

If you want a real eye opener on this I recommend sitting in on one of the pedestrian safety classes the city offers (it is full of people who've been ticketed for nearly running people down and think that it is their god given right to as a car owner).

           -Charles

      

On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 5:42 PM, Bob Baddeley <bob.ba...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Grant Dobbe]

It's the same problem with being a cyclist. If I had a dime for every time I was almost mowed down or sideswiped by someone driving a huge SUV or pickup, I'd have enough money to buy myself a new bike.

And cyclists aren't exempt from criticism. Most of them are just as bad as motorists -- not signalling turns or stops, riding on the sidewalk (which is illegal unless you're under 16 or the sidewalk is explicitly marked as a bike path, btw), not using lights at night, disregarding stop signs -- and then they wonder why they get so much grief from people in cars.

But let's not forget pedestrians. University Avenue and the Capitol Square are submitted without comment.

I think the larger problem is we've gotten so estranged from one another (stranger danger, fiddling with your phone as a replacement for small talk) that we forget how to empathize with other people. If you're in a hurry, you're in a hurry, and the guy at the crosswalk can just wait. 

So how do you solve *that* problem? :)

[Walker, Larry]

OK, it's the middle of winter, 5 degrees, 20 kt north wind. I'm running late for the bus that stops on the other side of University Ave, I'm at a zebra-stripe ped crossing, I have the right-of-way by law, the rush hour traffic is solid for blocks and I see the bus coming in the distance: How does looking both ways help me?

Sorry to snap back, Bob, but I've had too many close calls when trying to use my legal right of way. I've repeatedly had drivers yell obscenities at me to "get the hell out of my street". And all this after several years of well-publicized police crackdowns.

On one level, the flags a fairly good idea. But on another they are a wimpy, liberal response to blatant lawlessness on the part of drivers, who routinely create a public health hazard that hits children, the elderly, and the economically disadvantaged the worst. It's really way past time to change this. It's no different than drunk driving, IMHO...

Larry

[Walker, Larry]

Grant:

One minor correction: in Madison it is NOT actually illegal to ride on the sidewalk in most places. 

From http://www.cityofmadison.com/BikeMadison/getBiking/sidewalks.cfm

BICYCLING ON SIDEWALKS

Bicycling is allowed on sidewalks, EXCEPT where buildings are not set back from the sidewalk, as in commercial districts. Pedestrians always have the right of way on sidewalks and in crosswalks. Give an audible warning before passing pedestrians, and pass with care.

However, I would note, both from published studies and personal experience, that riding on the sidewalk is probably the most dangerous place to ride. Drivers generally are not looking for a bike coming down the sidewalk, making alley crossings, driveways, and intersections especially dangerous for cyclists. But there are a lot of places where the store I'm going to is on a nasty busy street, and a half block or a block of riding on the sidewalk is the saner alternative. But I always ride slower and more alertly when doing so…

And I second your comments on bicyclist's bad behavior: we can't really demand that cars obey the law if we totally ignore it!

Larry

[Grant Dobbe]

Larry: good to know. Here's where I got the sidewalk info:

http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/safety/vehicle/bicycle/rules.htm

TL;DR -- State law prohibits sidewalk riding unless a city specifically authorizes it.

[Joshua Carson]

This is funny here in Madison, because people just walk in front of my car (not in a crosswalk) on East Wash when I'm going 40.  In Texas, drivers have the right-of-way unless somebody is already in the crosswalk when the light turns green.  It seems to me that many pedestrians ignore the law about where they are allowed to walk here.  I've almost hit a few people running across the highway and called the cops on one guy sitting on a 5 gallon bucket in the middle lane on the highway.  It seems to me that too many people here don't "look both ways before crossing" and then put the responsibility on the driver when they almost get hit when running out in the middle of traffic.  Not every crosswalk here is a pedestrian right-of-way.  That being said, Madison is also the only city I've lived in that supports pedestrian-ism, and I love the flags.  :)

[Chris Meyer]

Swords, should we replace the flags with swords?

Chris

[Grant Dobbe]

I'm of the opinion that crossing guards with tazers should be stationed at every crosswalk on University Avenue. If you cross when the Don't Walk light is on, BZZT! 

On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 7:54 PM, Joshua Carson <joshca...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Walker, Larry]

Grant:

Yup, that's the danger of reading the "dumbed down" Rules of the Road publications, either for bikes or cars.

The Wisconsin Statutes are stupidly hard to read, and published in massive PDFs (or even more propriatary  formats) full of fine print and no internal links. But that's where you learn:

346.804 Riding bicycle on sidewalk. When local authorities under 

s.346.94 (1) permit bicycles on the sidewalk, every person operating a 

bicycle upon a sidewalk shall yield the right-of-way to any pedestrian 

and shall exercise due care and give an audible signal when passing a 

bicycle or electric personal assistive mobility device rider or a pedestrian 

proceeding in the same direction. 

Oddly, when I scroll down to section 346.94, it seems to say that municipalities can make it legal to drive cars on the sidewalk!

346.94 Miscellaneous prohibited acts. (1) Driving on sidewalk. The 

operator of a vehicle shall not drive upon any sidewalk area except at a 

permanent or temporarily established driveway unless permitted to do 

so by the local authorities

Sshhh: don't tell the drivers' lobby that's in there :-)

Larry

[Walker, Larry]

OK, one more fine-print correction:

In Wisconsin pedestrians have the right-of-way in ALL crosswalks, both marked and unmarked:

346.24 Crossing at uncontrolled intersection or crosswalk.

(1) At an intersection or crosswalk where traffic is not controlled by traffic 

control signals or by a traffic officer, the operator of a vehicle shall yield 

the right-of-way to a pedestrian, or to a person riding a bicycle or electric 

personal assistive mobility device in a manner which is consistent with 

the safe use of the crosswalk by pedestrians, who is crossing the 

highway within a marked or unmarked crosswalk.

I can't seem to find the definition of "unmarked crosswalk" this evening, but as I recall it's something like "any path connecting sidewalks on either side of the street".

And did you notice that a bicyclist may legally use a crosswalk and has the right of way when doing so!

Most drivers have SO little idea of what legal rights pedestrians actually have…

Larry

[Walker, Larry]

Um, before sending my first reply to this thread, I actually deleted a whole paragraph on replacing the wooden sticks with hunks of rebar :-)

But it does make a great fantasy, doesn't it?

Larry

[Charles Allhands]

Larry you are absolutely right about pedestrians in crosswalks. City of Madison PD enforces it as "one foot off the curb" although it isn't specifically defined. The exception to the crosswalk right of way is if it is a controlled intersection and the signal says "don't walk" (solid red hand, not just flashing). Pedestrians can also walk in the street (outside a crosswalk) but must yield to vehicles (jaywalking isn't illegal in Madison). The exception to this is if the person is blind. They can walk where they damn well please and traffic must yield to them.  

-Source: a City of Madison traffic engineer that gave a pedestrian safety class I took a while back.

    -Charles

[Alexander Bilgri]

Engineering solution: Super Rocket Jetpacks.

[Joe Kerman]

My favorite (meaning, most silly) Madison bicycle law is that it's illegal to ride within 3ft of a car (parked or moving I think). Making most of the bike lanes illegal to ride in!

They even ticketed a poor soul on a bike who ran into a car opening it's door without looking last year!

[Steven Faulkner]

Larry,

That is really interesting. Last year I was hit by a car on the capitol square while riding my bike through the cross walk. The police told me that it was against the law to ride my bike through a cross walk. It looks like I should have dug into that a little more.

-Steve

[Charles Allhands]

There's been the full gamut of engineering solutions to the problem suggested, I'd love to see some social solutions. He's some off the top of my head. 

1) Pressure city government to seriously enforce pedestrian safety laws. Many city law enforcement don't even follow them right now (I know because I test this every chance I get) let alone enforce them. 

2) Pressure the Department of Transportation to emphasize the rights of pedestrians and the relevant laws both on the driving exams and in the classes that are taught.

3) Start an OpEd campaign in the local papers, try to get them to publish articles that are relevant (for example, front page article every time someone is hit by a car in Madison).

4) Start a letter writing campaign to city officials that could make a difference (especially if they are elected).

5) Protest. Organize a pedestrian rights day once a month where you get a bunch of people to exercise their rights....on a busy street....during rush hour....on a Friday. Make it known this will stop when demands for improved safety are met (higher enforcement, lower car/pedestrian accidents).

6) Pressure the city to increase the fines for pedestrian safety violations.

7) Publicly shame those who break the laws. Find cases in CCAP (it has a SOAP service) and publish them to a website with their name and other information (e.g. facebook account, address, etc.). Publicize it through social media.

There are lots of ways to affect social change. As an example, gun owners are expected to act responsibly and take responsibility for the safety of others (e.g. they're responsible for not pointing the gun at people, people aren't responsible for looking out for the gun). This is handled through social solutions, rarely engineering ones. Cars are just as dangerous as guns (and more common, and kill more people) however cars, with regards to pedestrians, have little social control exerted over them. 

AH, words... so many words... oh well, social solutions usually have a lot of those too.....

          -Charles

[Kenneth Younger]

I have to say, after visiting Vietnam recently, I was at first appalled at their street and traffic systems. Like many of the videos you've seen on the web, it seems like utter chaos. But in Hanoi, Regent street at 5pm would be a very simple street to cross: you just start walking across it, and all the cars, bikes, and motor bikes just flow around you as you walk. It's actually a bit fun once you get used to it. 

I have been wondering if that sort of behavior would have emerged in the US if we hadn't applied such strict traffic laws all over the place.

Kenneth Younger III
Founder, Sheer Focus Inc.
e: ke...@sheerfocus.com
p: (515) 367-0001
t: @kenny

[Peter Novotnak]

I've never had a problem if I've made eye contact with the drivers concerned and was assertive (eg; started walking into traffic.)

Nevertheless, I'd be down to build a bunch of pedestrian bridges out of scrap steel, or publicly shame people :)

-Peter