H8 Dual CF Controller build...

[Joe Travis N6YPC]

I'm nearly done building the H8 Dual CF Controller board and have a few comments I thought I'd put out to the group and maybe get your thoughts:

(1)  Having built the previous version which used the IDE-CF adapters and this new version which uses just a CF connector, I'm concerned over the average kit builder's ability to properly solder the CF connector.  The pins as well as the pitch of the pins is very small.  To avoid bridging, soldering these requires a small tip with lower temperature and the use of fine (.015") solder is recommended.  Some may also require the use of a magnifying lens while soldering.

I suggest a re-spin of the board to accommodate the option of using the CF connector or the IDE-CF adapter.  If the reason to use the CF connector instead of the IDE-CF adapter was to save money, it doesn't.  The CF connector cost $8.64 (DigiKey) each while the IDE-CF adapter is $7.59 (Amazon) for two.  Reworking the IDE-CF adapter isn't a big deal, just need to relocate the 3 LEDs and 2 jumpers to the back of the board to get it to mount flush.

(2)  I just discovered the new version didn't implement 16 bit addressing of the CF which makes the CF cards from the previous version incompatible.  While this may seem to only affect a few of us (who spent days / hours transferring files onto the CFs) it also prevents the ability to read the CFIDENT to determine capacity, etc. for PREP and PART.

If the H8 Dual CF board gets re-spun, I'd also encourage the addition of a latch to accommodate the upper 8 bits of address.  This change won't affect the work that was done for CP/M3.

Regards,

Joe Travis n6ypc

[Richard Davis Jr.]

Joe,

Douglas said the cards are in 8 bit mode so 16 bit data isn't required/

Rick

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[norberto.collado koyado.com]

Do I need to re-spin the board using the 40 in IDE connector so that is easy to solder? Let me know before I release the board to Todd.

Get Outlook for iOS

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From: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Richard Davis Jr. <rickdav...@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [sebhc] H8 Dual CF Controller build...

 

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[Douglas Miller]

The reason, as I recall, that we had gone the route of the CF sockets was that people had had problems with the IDE-CF adapters on occasion (especially with the cheap ones), and so if they are not required then we should just skip them. It's really a reliability/integrity issue, not cost.

That being said, I guess we could put the 40-pin IDE pads in there as well, but the wiring is not straight-forward. If it requires additional components then we may want to reconsider. Of course, we have to give the disclaimer that this is NOT an IDE connection - it is strictly for CF card adapters.

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[Richard Davis Jr.]

In my opinion yes. Very hard to solder.

See what others think.

Rick

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[Douglas Miller]

We've also had "experts" volunteer to do soldering, for surface-mount components but this might also fall into that category for some. I'd guess it is the same level of difficulty as the PLCC socket for the Z180 (which is no longer available in PLCC).

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sebhc/CABvWWganNazopdyZUrO37YWdztj7wAfDmxEDqxt1h-7sgoOefg%40mail.gmail.com.

[Dave McGuire]

"Experts". You know I do this for a living, right?

Anyway, CF card sockets are trivial with the proper equipment.

-Dave, wondering why I bother

On 2/1/23 16:55, Douglas Miller wrote:
> We've also had "experts" volunteer to do soldering, for surface-mount
> components but this might also fall into that category for some. I'd
> guess it is the same level of difficulty as the PLCC socket for the Z180
> (which is no longer available in PLCC).
>
>
> On 2/1/23 15:51, Richard Davis Jr. wrote:
>> In my opinion yes. Very hard to solder.
>>
>> See what others think.
>>
>> Rick
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 1, 2023, 4:43 PM norberto.collado koyado.com
>> <http://koyado.com> <norberto...@koyado.com> wrote:
>>
>> Do I need to re-spin the board using the 40 in IDE connector so
>> that is easy to solder? Let me know before I release the board to
>> Todd.
>>

>> Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com> on behalf

>> of Richard Davis Jr. <rickdav...@gmail.com>

>> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 1, 2023 12:07:20 PM
>> *To:* se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [sebhc] H8 Dual CF Controller build...

>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sebhc/37f85ae1-ce67-4706-b3ab-93a8343d80fen%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sebhc/37f85ae1-ce67-4706-b3ab-93a8343d80fen%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

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Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

[Robert Litz]

You could look into accommodating a Compact flash breakout board.  The Microcontroller shop sells them.  They connect via ribbon cable.  $7.00

https://microcontrollershop.com/product_info.php?products_id=4183&gclid=CjwKCAiAuOieBhAIEiwAgjCvcm3rWIBhOGHDE7vToNvRQ23huE6KA5z-92FGHcIMSM7KiOlYOBWBQRoCbWcQAvD_BwE

There are others that just have a set of pads that could be easily wired or connected by a set of mail pins on .1 centers  to be soldered.

Much easier than the cf socket itself.

[Dave McGuire]

Take a look at the approach taken by the s100computers.com gang:


http://www.s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/IDE%20Board/My%20IDE%20Card.htm

This works well and leaves options open, though it does take up a lot
of board space.

-Dave

> >> <http://koyado.com <http://koyado.com>> <norberto...@koyado.com>

> wrote:
> >>
> >> Do I need to re-spin the board using the 40 in IDE connector so
> >> that is easy to solder? Let me know before I release the board to
> >> Todd.
> >>

> >> Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>>

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[Douglas Miller]

That's using those IDE-CF adapters again. I'm not the one that has to
live with them, but it just seems like there have been problems -
especially if you buy from sources like e-bay or worse.

The BoB that Robert mentions is very interesting. As long as it has all
the signals we need. That might be a good way for people to "remote" the
CF socket so that they don't have to remove the cabinet cover to change
CF cards. To me, that makes more sense than the IDE-CF adapters - as
long as we have confidence that those will be available for some years.

[Douglas Miller]

I do see that SparkFun has a couple options as well:

https://www.sparkfun.com/products/retired/493

https://www.sparkfun.com/products/retired/195 (retired)

Of course, we're back in the same situation as with the (micro)SDcard
break-out-boards - they all have different pinouts so how do you either
pick the one that will always be available or layout the board so any
will work?

[rw...@robhome.com]

2) I just discovered the new version didn't implement 16 bit addressing of the CF which makes the CF cards from the previous version incompatible. While this may seem to only affect a few of us (who spent days / hours transferring files onto the CFs) it also prevents the ability to read the CFIDENT to determine capacity, etc. for PREP and PART.

I would hate to see an incompatibility between the CF cards. It would make troubleshooting much easier if we could move CFs back and forth between the new unit and the old z67 implementation.

Rob Waggoner
________________________________
From: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Douglas Miller <durga...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2023 4:35:09 PM
To: sebhc Google Group <se...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [sebhc] H8 Dual CF Controller build...

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[Dave McGuire]

On 2/1/23 17:35, Douglas Miller wrote:
> That's using those IDE-CF adapters again. I'm not the one that has to
> live with them, but it just seems like there have been problems -
> especially if you buy from sources like e-bay or worse.

Well, there has to be a measure of responsibility involved. If the
user buys the cheapest crap they can find, they'll get what they've got
coming.

-Dave

[Richard Davis Jr.]

Rob,

Not sure about being incompatible yet. It is wired for 8 bit mode but, if I can still read 512 bytes of a 512 byte sector one byte at a time, I guarantee the new drivers I create will be 100% compatible with the previous CF cards you created.

I too and others would be in the same boat.

Rick

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[Douglas Miller]

I need to hear this "incompatibility" explained. All CF cards support 8-bit mode, unless you're talking about some 30-year-old one that didn't conform to the specification. This is NOT the hard-wired 8-bit mode, but is explicitly enabled using the Feature register/command. The "Identify Device" command works just like Read Sector, so 8-bit mode will transfer the data just fine.

I'd like to see details on what doesn't work, the code being used, and specifics of the card. Otherwise, this just sounds like fearmongering.

Unless Joe can come back with some proof, lets just keep moving forward. I can give Norberto a program to dump the results of the Identify Device command, if necessary just to settle the issue.

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[Robert Litz]

The breakouts a different from the ide-cf adapter. The breakouts have only the preinstalled cf socket on them.  I would be tempted to pick one that did not have the ribbon cable connectors and instead just had the area with holes. The link I posted was just the 1st one I ran across.  The cost is not much more than the socket and it fixes the soldering issue.  You might want to take a second look.  I’ve used a breakout a few times to solve the soldering problem, and it is worked out fine.  I installed pins in the main board and then soldered the brick out to the pins.

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[Richard Davis Jr.]

Douglas,

I understand now that 8 bit mode is ok.

What threw me off was when Norberto did the original release of this board, he couldn't get 8 bit mode to work.

I am glad it will work and my drivers will be backwards compatible with CF cards created using the 8255 version of the board.

Rick

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[Joseph Travis]

Norberto,

Lo siento.  Por favor acepta mi disculpa. No me di cuenta del lio que esto crearia.

Perhaps it is best just to leave the board as is and see how it shakes out.

Regards,

Joe

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[Peter Higgins]

Beyond a few anecdotal reports, my impression is that the actual failure rate of these CF-IDE card adapters is very low.

As Dave pointed out above, these adapters have been used on many board designs used by the S100Computers group which includes possibly a few hundred of just the S100 dual CF board alone. I don't recall seeing any discussions of failures of IDE-CF adapters in that group's discussion forum. I have personally built boards using a half dozen of these adapters sourced from places including eBay and Amazon, and all have worked perfectly.  And, as Joe Travis pointed out, these adapters are very inexpensive.

The H8 dual CF board seems to have plenty of space for two of these CF-IDE adapter cards, and installing the required 40 pin right angle headers can easily be done by anyone. I certainly agree with Joe's recommendation the board be redesigned to use them.

[norberto.collado koyado.com]

Rick,

 

That was true as the CPU was running at 33MHz, and the CF card was very unstable at such speeds, even with wait states.

 

As we have a lot of space on such CF board I will add to have both connectors.  It will be a while as soon I finish the pending boards in the queue.

 

Attached is a picture on how it will look. It is going to support a single CF card on the 40pin IDE connector and not the dual CF adapter.

 

Norberto

.

[norberto.collado koyado.com]

No worries and great feedback received.

 

Also, your current 8080A image should work on this card just fine. Once you get this CF card booting, then I will need a copy of the images (HDOS, HDOS3, CP/M) to be able to boot it from the new 8080A monitor and on the Z180 board.

 

Norberto 😊

.

[Peter Higgins]

Norberto

The "picture on how it will look" shows the original SYBA CF-IDE adapter board, and SYBA seems to be the only remaining vendor for this board. Sometime in the past 24 months the design of this board was changed, and this redesigned board is the most common version now sold by all vendors except SYBA:

The current version is pictured here:

http://www.s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/IDE%20Board/V4%20Board%20Final.jpg

This version is slightly smaller but what is really important is that the IDE connector orientation has been flipped 180 degrees. Therefore, the order of board traces leading to the 40 pin IDE connector header must be reversed from what they were for the original SYBA adapter. 

[norberto.collado koyado.com]

😳

Get Outlook for iOS

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Subject: Re: [sebhc] H8 Dual CF Controller build...

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[norberto.collado koyado.com]

I see. If using the same connector I have the CF will be facing side 1 of the board. So, you just see the CF pcb. That means that they are using the Dual CF card as a single card. Did I get it right?

Get Outlook for iOS

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[norberto.collado koyado.com]

I still see the same I have in Amazon.

Get Outlook for iOS

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Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2023 11:56:42 PM

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[Joseph Travis]

These are the ones I've been getting from Amazon, two for $7.59.  I just relocate the LEDs and jumpers to the backside so they mount flush.

Joe

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[glenn.f...@gmail.com]

And for some applications, e.g. Z67-IDE/IDE+ you can avoid moving the LEDs and jumpers by soldering the right-angle 40-pin connector at an angle, e.g. here’s how Norberto recommends building the Z67-IDE/IDE+.  This works well:

 

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[Peter Higgins]

Norberto  - yes, the SYBA brand CF-IDE adapters are still available on Amazon. If you design the board to use this adapter, everyone building the board must know to purchase this exact make/model of SYBA CF-IDE adapter. All the no-brand CF-IDE adapters currently sold by vendors on Amazon, eBay and elsewhere use the "new" design - which can only be used if they are installed backwards.

[Joseph Travis]

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[norberto.collado koyado.com]

I do not think this an issue as they are using a dual cf adapter and just enabling the first channel. It will work fine but it is inconvenient to replace such cf card. 

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From: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Joseph Travis <jtravi...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2023 6:52:24 AM

To: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [sebhc] H8 Dual CF Controller build...

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sebhc/CAGQDgBCyb%3D-axuFvG6k1Jnpdf_sdF7j8n19EYe2BiW4rdn8ffg%40mail.gmail.com.

[norberto.collado koyado.com]

Joe, can I get the p/n for the 40 pin connector un-shrouded.

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From: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of norberto.collado koyado.com <norberto...@koyado.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2023 9:49:29 AM

To: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [sebhc] H8 Dual CF Controller build...

I do not think this an issue as they are using a dual cf adapter and just enabling the first channel. It will work fine but it is inconvenient to replace such cf card. 

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From: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Joseph Travis <jtravi...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2023 6:52:24 AM
To: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [sebhc] H8 Dual CF Controller build...

 

On Thu, Feb 2, 2023 at 9:49 AM Peter Higgins <higgin...@gmail.com> wrote:

Norberto  - yes, the SYBA brand CF-IDE adapters are still available on Amazon. If you design the board to use this adapter, everyone building the board must know to purchase this exact make/model of SYBA CF-IDE adapter. All the no-brand CF-IDE adapters currently sold by vendors on Amazon, eBay and elsewhere use the "new" design - which can only be used if they are installed backwards.

On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 11:59:37 PM UTC-8 Norby wrote:

I still see the same I have in Amazon.

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[Joseph Travis]

Unfortunately, I don't have a part number to give you.  I bought a small bag full of 50 pin right angle connectors at a ham radio swap meet. I just cut them down to the size I need (40, 34, 26, etc.) and use those.

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[Peter Higgins]

Norberto - these are the 40 pin right angle connectors required:

https://www.jameco.com/z/7000-2X20RG-R-Jameco-Valuepro-Connector-Unshrouded-Header-40-Position-2-54mm-Solder-Right-Angle_53605.html

A link is provided to this part's data sheet, however the dimensions are identical to that of any dual-row header with a 2.54mm pitch.

[norberto.collado koyado.com]

Thanks!

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From: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Peter Higgins <higgin...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2023 12:07:39 PM
To: SEBHC <se...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: [sebhc] H8 Dual CF Controller build...

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[Joseph Travis]

Norberto,

It looks like you will need to reposition some LEDs in the respin.  I'll have to remove some in order to install the CF.

Joe

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[norberto.collado koyado.com]

That is already done. For this board my direction was the following:

Notes: Do not install D13 and D14. Do not install C10 and C11 (100pf)

Please make sure C10 and C11 are not installed as the HW circuit will handle such timing. I added them just in case it was needed. I will leave them in case we encounter a CF card that doesn’t behave per specs.

 

You are almost there.  I want to see this baby booting HDOS, HDOS3, and CP/M at your end very soon.

 

😊

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[norberto.collado koyado.com]

Also forgot to mention than on the proto board some IC’s labels are missing. I had to use the schematics to find their values. I’m attaching a low resolution picture so that you can use as a reference to be sure the proper IC’s are in place.

 

Sorry about that.

 

Norberto

[Joseph Travis]

Thanks Norberto.  My board is assembled; however, I need to know the proper jumper settings at this point.  BTW - The PDF file you included in Dual_CF.zip is bad.  I believe it may have been the schematic?

Joe

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[norberto.collado koyado.com]

Sure! Do you need the GAL I/O decoder?

 

The schematic is also at the website:

 

http://koyado.com/heathkit/New-H8-Website/download/h8-dual-cf-storage%20(1).pdf

 

Jumpers:

JP5 – 2-3 as shown

JP6 – 2-3 as shown

 

 

 

JP3 /IORQE – 2-3 as shown

JP4 Reset_H_L – 2-3 as shown

 

 

 

JP2 WR_L = LCH position

JP1 RD_L = LCH position

 

 

 

 

JP23 Buffer-On/Off = jumper on. (JP23)

 

 

 

Hope this helps,

Norberto

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[norberto.collado koyado.com]

Joe,

 

I just added to the website the GAL I/O decoder.

 

Link: http://koyado.com/heathkit/New-H8-Website/download/dual_cf-gal-io-decoder.zip

 

Norberto

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[norberto.collado koyado.com]

Joe,

 

I’m going to leave the CF connector board as it is with the new fixes and give it to Todd for production. It is too much work to add two more IDE-CF adapters and to keep the CF connector as well.

 

This new controller has the capability to support 4x-CF adapters as master. So you could have the following combination:

1. CF#0 – Boot CP/M3
2. CF#1 – Boot HDOS
3. CF#3 – Boot HDOS 3.0
4. CF#4 – boot Heath CP?M 2.2.04

 

I rather create a new controller using the IDE-CF adapter to support the 4 CF cards as master, and it will be easier as all connectors are the same.

 

It might look like this; does this works for you? It will be the same schematics with just the connector change, to keep it compatible with the CF adapter boot driver.

 

 

 

Norberto

 

From: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Joe Travis N6YPC
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2023 9:31 AM
To: SEBHC <se...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [sebhc] H8 Dual CF Controller build...

 

I'm nearly done building the H8 Dual CF Controller board and have a few comments I thought I'd put out to the group and maybe get your thoughts:

 

(1)  Having built the previous version which used the IDE-CF adapters and this new version which uses just a CF connector, I'm concerned over the average kit builder's ability to properly solder the CF connector.  The pins as well as the pitch of the pins is very small.  To avoid bridging, soldering these requires a small tip with lower temperature and the use of fine (.015") solder is recommended.  Some may also require the use of a magnifying lens while soldering.

 

I suggest a re-spin of the board to accommodate the option of using the CF connector or the IDE-CF adapter.  If the reason to use the CF connector instead of the IDE-CF adapter was to save money, it doesn't.  The CF connector cost $8.64 (DigiKey) each while the IDE-CF adapter is $7.59 (Amazon) for two.  Reworking the IDE-CF adapter isn't a big deal, just need to relocate the 3 LEDs and 2 jumpers to the back of the board to get it to mount flush.

 

(2)  I just discovered the new version didn't implement 16 bit addressing of the CF which makes the CF cards from the previous version incompatible.  While this may seem to only affect a few of us (who spent days / hours transferring files onto the CFs) it also prevents the ability to read the CFIDENT to determine capacity, etc. for PREP and PART.

 

If the H8 Dual CF board gets re-spun, I'd also encourage the addition of a latch to accommodate the upper 8 bits of address.  This change won't affect the work that was done for CP/M3.

 

Regards,

Joe Travis n6ypc

 

 

 

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[Joseph Travis]

Norberto,

I can see the desire for both configurations (Direct CF and IDE-CF) and that trying to do both on one board is unnecessarily complicated.  However, I don't understand the need to have 4 CFs on one board.  Each CF is partitioned for multiple logical drives any of which can be selected at boot time.  As I see it, adding 2 more CFs to the board merely expands the I/O requirements without additional benefit.  Personally, I would roll with the two existing designs and move on to the next project.

I don't believe there is a significant difference in speed between the original design using 8255s and the current design.  The current design is easier / faster at the driver level as there isn't a need to reconfigure the CF I/O port for read vs. write.  I can tell you the original Dual CF board is much faster than the H37 connected to a Gotek (or floppy drive) and believe either CF design is going to be faster than the H67 interface (due to the multiple layers of hardware and software).  I wholeheartedly believe the DCF board will be the best investment anyone can make for their H8.  Thank you for all of your hard work!  Your efforts are greatly appreciated by me and many others!

Best Regards,

Joe

 

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[norberto.collado koyado.com]

The I/O assignment is the same port for each CF card, so no complexity added. You just specify which drive to boot from (0-3). 

Are we booting from the Direct CF card controller?

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From: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Joseph Travis <jtravi...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 8, 2023 8:22:35 AM
To: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [sebhc] H8 Dual CF Controller build...

 

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[Richard Davis Jr.]

Not yet. Still updating apps and drivers 

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[norberto.collado koyado.com]

No worries! 😀

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From: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Richard Davis Jr. <rickdav...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 8, 2023 1:58:02 PM

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[smb...@gmail.com]

I wanted to verify the through-hole compactflash socket used on these boards -- is it  CFT-125-01-L-D-RA-01-SL ?

Scott

[norberto.collado koyado.com]

Digikey part number is SAM9213-ND.

 

 

Norberto

Norberto

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[Joseph Travis]

I acquired mine from DigiKey, part #

SAM9213-ND‎

‎CFT-125-01-L-D-RA-01-SL

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