H-89 Manuals - assorted - cleaning house! Finally.
Bob Groh
Quantities are one of each unless indicated otherwise with a "Qty: xx". No prices noted - I am just looking for something nominal. No postage amounts - I'll give an estimate to everyone who might be interested - it's media mail so it will be cheap in any event (probably less than $15 for up to 15 lbs or some such). Each manual includes associated schematics, pictorial package, etc. Or at least as much as I can find. Most are bound softcover. A few of the little one's were from 'proof building' and were just stapled together copies.
#1 Heathkit H19/H88/H89 Service Manuals (one for H-19 and one for H88/H89)
Large softbound manuals originally put together for the service folks at Heath. Includes extensive circuit descriptions, scope diagrams, IC descriptions, etc. Couple of hundred pages each. The H88/H89 manuals need the H-19 manual so I am combining as all one set.
#2 H17 Assembly manual and Operation Manual
#2A H17 Assembly manual including instruction booklet for converting to 3 drive
#3 H25 Printer Operations Manual Qty: 2
#4 H89-47 Manual (2 of them) plus one Z47-BA Instruction Manual
Describes how to install interface board to talk to the H-47 drives. The Z47-BA operations manual talks about how to use the H-47 with the H-89.
#5 H77 Assembly Manual
#6 BIOS listing for CP/M 2.2.04 (PN 595-3055)
#7 H19 ROM Listing
#8 H19 'Stuff'
An assembly manual for H-19 plus manual covering conversion of H19 to H88.
#9 Monitor-89 Listing (Qty: 4)
#10 H-89A Operations Manual
#11 H-88 Operations Manual
#12 H-88A Operations Manual
#13 Big Bundle
Includes softcover volumes from Mostek (see below) and some other misc stuff.
"Z80 Programming Manual"
"Z80 CPU" (Hardware description of Z80 processor - i.e. I/O, registers, etc).
So if you are interested, drop me a line and let me know what you are interested in.
Bob Groh
Blue Springs, Missouri 64014
Norberto Collado
I will like to get Item #1: Heathkit H19/H88/H89 Service Manuals (one for H-19 and one for H88/H89)
Thanks,
Norberto
shum...@att.net
If they haven't already been spoken for, I'd definitely be interested in #s 1, 2a, and 4!!
Steve Shumaker
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Les Bird
send me #7 he can keep mine.
- Les
Bob Groh
Bob
Mark Garlanger
Mark
Jack Rubin
Les Bird
Bob Groh
I am going to scan the Z47 interface stuff (#4) since it is so few pages (the originals will still go to Mark).
NOTE!!! I also found a manual for the H89-37 controller package.
I'll update the list today but so far:
Mark #1, 3, 4, 7, 9, 13
Steve #2A, 4
Les I'm assuming Mark will return Les's H-19 listing
That's it for now.
Bob
Les Bird
Mark Garlanger
Thanks,
Mark
Jack Rubin
Bob Groh
Bob
Bill Beech (NJ7P)
Yes I would be glad to scan any of them. But I do need to unbind them
to do the job properly. I also have a 11 x 17 inch flatbed scanner to
do the schematics and large pull outs.
Bill
Les Bird wrote:
> Mark,
>
> Bill Beech or I would be happy to scan them in for free although Bill
> would do a much better job at it than I would. But I think those
> service manuals are very important to have in our archives.
>
> - Les
>
>
> *From:* Mark Garlanger <mailto:garl...@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 09, 2010 11:17 AM
> *To:* se...@googlegroups.com <mailto:se...@googlegroups.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [sebhc] H-89 Manuals - assorted - cleaning house! Finally.
>
> Yes, an item like that will definitely be at or near the top of my
> scanning 'to-do' list. Although, if they are bound, I may need to
> breakdown and get one of the hand-type scanners. I had been
> considering getting one of those to scan the H19 ROM listing that I'm
> borrowing from Les.
>
> Mark
>
> On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 10:08 AM, Bob Groh <bob....@gmail.com
> <mailto:bob....@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Sorry, Norberto, Mark G. grabbed those. Maybe we can sweet talk
> him into scanning them for the archives!
>
> Bob
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 12:08 AM, Norberto Collado
> <norberto...@koyado.com <mailto:norberto...@koyado.com>>
> wrote:
>
> Bob,
>
> I will like to get Item #1: Heathkit H19/H88/H89 Service
> Manuals (one for H-19 and one for H88/H89)
>
> Thanks,
>
> Norberto
>
>
>
>
> On 2/8/10 8:24 PM, "Bob Groh" <bob....@gmail.com
> <mailto:se...@googlegroups.com>.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> sebhc+un...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:sebhc%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/sebhc?hl=en.
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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> <mailto:se...@googlegroups.com>.
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> sebhc+un...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:sebhc%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>.
Bill Beech (NJ7P)
Send them to me and I will scan them. No sense spending money at
Kinko's when you could be buying more toys of ePay.
Bill
Les Bird wrote:
> Jack,
>
> Will that scanner do full size schematics? What about Illustration
> Booklets? I have a box of it here that I was planning on taking to
> Kinko's when I start getting paid again. It includes a full set of H9
> schematics w/IBs, a full set of H19 schematics w/IBs, a full set of
> H29 schematics w/IBs and H8-7 schematic.
>
> - Les
>
>
> *From:* Jack Rubin <mailto:jack....@ameritech.net>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 09, 2010 11:28 AM
> *To:* se...@googlegroups.com <mailto:se...@googlegroups.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [sebhc] H-89 Manuals - assorted - cleaning house! Finally.
>
> Mark (or anyone else with docs to scan),
>
> I've finally mastered our scanner/copier here at work and can easily
> scan sheet fed material directly to pdf using a high capacity
> autofeeder. I've just worked through a couple hundred pages of DEC
> documentation and it works really well (including double sided input).
> I'll be happy to work with anything that's loose leaf or that you are
> willing to have unbound.
>
> I've also got a "book scanner" that has the scanning work area
> directly on the edge of the machine so books can be scanned a page at
> a time without any distortion or gutter but this is manual and pretty
> tedious. Probably worth it for the maintenance manuals if there is no
> other option.
>
> Jack
>
>
> *From:* Mark Garlanger <garl...@gmail.com>
> *To:* se...@googlegroups.com
> *Sent:* Tue, February 9, 2010 10:17:20 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [sebhc] H-89 Manuals - assorted - cleaning house!
> Finally.
>
> Yes, an item like that will definitely be at or near the top of my
> scanning 'to-do' list. Although, if they are bound, I may need to
> breakdown and get one of the hand-type scanners. I had been
> considering getting one of those to scan the H19 ROM listing that
> I'm borrowing from Les.
>
> Mark
>
> On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 10:08 AM, Bob Groh <bob....@gmail.com
> <mailto:bob....@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Sorry, Norberto, Mark G. grabbed those. Maybe we can sweet
> talk him into scanning them for the archives!
>
> Bob
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 12:08 AM, Norberto Collado
> <norberto...@koyado.com
> <mailto:norberto...@koyado.com>> wrote:
>
> Bob,
>
> I will like to get Item #1: Heathkit H19/H88/H89 Service
> Manuals (one for H-19 and one for H88/H89)
>
> Thanks,
>
> Norberto
>
>
>
>
> On 2/8/10 8:24 PM, "Bob Groh" <bob....@gmail.com
> se...@googlegroups.com <mailto:se...@googlegroups.com>.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> sebhc+un...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:sebhc%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/sebhc?hl=en.
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the
> Google Groups "SEBHC" group.
> To post to this group, send email to se...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:se...@googlegroups.com>.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> sebhc+un...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:sebhc%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>.
Les Bird
I'll send these out to you. What about those yellow manuals,
Operators/Assembly, can you scan those as well? I have H9, H19 and H29
Operators and Assembly manuals too.
- Les
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Bill Beech (NJ7P)" <nj...@nj7p.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 7:09 PM
To: <se...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [sebhc] H-89 Manuals - assorted - cleaning house! Finally.
Mark Garlanger
Mark
Bill Beech (NJ7P)
You mean the covers, right? I can handle those, as well.
I have been trying to OCR some of the listings with no luck. Like to
have the source code available...
Bill
Bob Groh
Bob Groh
Glenn Roberts
Bob: I’m interested in helping. Perhaps we can orchestrate a process across the group to reconstruct and archive Heathkit source code. Over the years I’ve actually reconstructed some portions of the original HDOS source. Admittedly I started with the smaller pieces (BOOT, FLAGS, INIT, PIP, SET, SYSCMD) plus 100+ ACM (Assembler Common Module) files, but these now assemble to an essentially exact version of the equivalent HDOS binaries (not exact because the real HDOS binaries were assembled on cross-development machine, probably a PDP-11?, but the differences are only in the DS data spaces). I’m a bit of a “purist” and have tried to capture as accurately as possible the original format including comments.
Why some of you may ask?? Source code is a product of human creativity, sometimes arguably a” work of art”, especially software that was written to run on machines in only 8K or 16K of memory! Plus, by having source we can maintain and update them (e.g. patching HDOS for y2k is relatively straightforward). The HDOS code and associated H8/H89 ROM images are particularly professionally done. Gordon Letwin (later of Microsoft fame) and others who developed this system left us a wonderful legacy that deserves to be preserved. I can only wonder when the history books of the “microcomputer revolution” are written whether or not well bemoan the loss of so many valuable and interesting software artifacts. Where is the source code to Lotus 1-2-3? Or the original Microsoft Basic? Dbase III??? I’m afraid many of these have been lost.
But we Have the source for HDOS and other Heathkit software – it was a revolutionary idea in its time: publish the source code for your microcomputer system; as far as I know Heathkit was alone in offering it (admittedly for a price, and even then only in hard copy form, but still…).
We have to decide where and how to archive this code as we reconstitute it. Les’ site seems to have become our de facto library, perhaps there? Or in our Google group archive? I would suggest that a requirement be that source files must assemble to the original binary file or ROM image. It would also be nice to try and capture as much of the original formatting and comments as possible. I do these a little bit at a time on my laptop. If we “divvy” them up across the group we could be pretty productive.
Anyone interested?
- Glenn
p.s. having written this note I should have first asked – is there any possibility that these sources still exist in electronic format somewhere? Anyone on the list have an idea where or whom we’d ask?
From:
se...@googlegroups.com [mailto:se...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Groh
Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 10:31 PM
To: se...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [sebhc] H-89 Manuals - assorted - cleaning house! Finally.
I tried to OCR the listings for the project I did for the
group sometime ago with absolutely no luck at all. Finally gave up and did it
all manually. I'm going to start a new thread to carry on with some thoughts as
I am still confused as to where we stand on the overall subject of source code.
Bob Groh
--
Les Bird
Dan Emrick
be either, but I will offer a small contribution.
I've added a file to my web site <http://www.danemricksite.net/> under
the Heathkit Projects page. The last link in the table leads to an
archive page (http://www.danemricksite.net/archive/index.php). Right
now it has only one file called HDOS.ASM. I think it is a
reconstruction, but it appears to be fairly faithful when checked
against the HDOS HOS-1-SL listing. Sadly it does not have all of the
comments, which as Glenn said, are very desirable. Maybe it will be a
good start toward a file that conforms to the published listing.
I'll check some more to see if I have sources for the overlays as
well.
I'll have to check with my host, but I may be able to mirror whatever
archives that we develop.
Dan
Snowbound in Springfield, VA
On Feb 10, 9:14 am, "Les Bird" <lesb...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> Glenn,
>
> That sounds like a really great plan. I'll certainly put the code up on the web site as it becomes available and I hope it gets mirrored, possibly to Mark's site too. It's important to have this stuff up on multiple sites in case one goes down for whatever reason.
>
> I think it might be a good idea to signup for free online cloud storage somewhere (I think Google has something like this) where we can deposit everything we have so anyone can get access to it. The entire SEBHC portion of my web site is only 1GB. Jack, any ideas here?
>
> From what I heard the source for HDOS was placed in the public domain but I have no idea where on planet Internet it is. Certainly would be nice to find it.
>
> - Les
>
> From: Glenn Roberts
> Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 6:58 AM
> To: se...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [sebhc] Reconstucting Heathkit source code
>
> Bob: I'm interested in helping. Perhaps we can orchestrate a process across the group to reconstruct and archive Heathkit source code. Over the years I've actually reconstructed some portions of the original HDOS source. Admittedly I started with the smaller pieces (BOOT, FLAGS, INIT, PIP, SET, SYSCMD) plus 100+ ACM (Assembler Common Module) files, but these now assemble to an essentially exact version of the equivalent HDOS binaries (not exact because the real HDOS binaries were assembled on cross-development machine, probably a PDP-11?, but the differences are only in the DS data spaces). I'm a bit of a "purist" and have tried to capture as accurately as possible the original format including comments.
>
> Why some of you may ask?? Source code is a product of human creativity, sometimes arguably a" work of art", especially software that was written to run on machines in only 8K or 16K of memory! Plus, by having source we can maintain and update them (e.g. patching HDOS for y2k is relatively straightforward). The HDOS code and associated H8/H89 ROM images are particularly professionally done. Gordon Letwin (later of Microsoft fame) and others who developed this system left us a wonderful legacy that deserves to be preserved. I can only wonder when the history books of the "microcomputer revolution" are written whether or not well bemoan the loss of so many valuable and interesting software artifacts. Where is the source code to Lotus 1-2-3? Or the original Microsoft Basic? Dbase III??? I'm afraid many of these have been lost.
>
> But we Have the source for HDOS and other Heathkit software - it was a revolutionary idea in its time: publish the source code for your microcomputer system; as far as I know Heathkit was alone in offering it (admittedly for a price, and even then only in hard copy form, but still.).
>
> We have to decide where and how to archive this code as we reconstitute it. Les' site seems to have become our de facto library, perhaps there? Or in our Google group archive? I would suggest that a requirement be that source files must assemble to the original binary file or ROM image. It would also be nice to try and capture as much of the original formatting and comments as possible. I do these a little bit at a time on my laptop. If we "divvy" them up across the group we could be pretty productive.
>
> Anyone interested?
>
> - Glenn
>
> p.s. having written this note I should have first asked - is there any possibility that these sources still exist in electronic format somewhere? Anyone on the list have an idea where or whom we'd ask?
>
> From: se...@googlegroups.com [mailto:se...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob Groh
> Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 10:31 PM
> To: se...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [sebhc] H-89 Manuals - assorted - cleaning house! Finally.
>
> I tried to OCR the listings for the project I did for the group sometime ago with absolutely no luck at all. Finally gave up and did it all manually. I'm going to start a new thread to carry on with some thoughts as I am still confused as to where we stand on the overall subject of source code.
>
> Bob Groh
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "SEBHC" group.
> To post to this group, send email to se...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sebhc+un...@googlegroups.com.
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West, Ronald S.
From: se...@googlegroups.com on behalf of Dan Emrick
Sent: Wed 2/10/2010 10:45 AM
To: SEBHC
Subject: [sebhc] Re: Reconstucting Heathkit source code
Mark Garlanger
A few months ago, I started transcribing the H19 ROM listing, from the book that I borrowed from Les. I haven't gotten very far, but now I'll be able to send the book back to Les and continue with the copy, I'm getting from Bob.
Mark
steve shumaker
http://www.kiblerelectronics.com/
My interest was due to references to an article by one Kirk L Thompson who wrote quite a detailed article about HDOS and its development history. In emails with Mr Kibler, he offered to scan and email me the article but unfortunately asked that I NOT disseminate it further. Said article is by Kirk L Thompson and is titled "Letwin's Prior Progeny, Heath's HDOS, Then and Now," which appeared in Issue #43 of "The Computer Journal." Thompson was the editor of "The Staunch 8/89'ers'" a bi-monthly newsletter.
This article is a fascinating history of HDOS. In one tantalizing statement Thompson asserts that Dave Carroll, a member of the HDOS 3 development team acquired the HDOS 2 source code in machine readable form and copied it to 8" disks which were then given to Bill Parrott, another member of the HDOS 3 team. No further record of the media seems to be known - at least to Thompson. More to the point of this thread, he also states in the article that, using the source code listings sold by Heath, the Capitol Heath/Zenith Users' Group keyed in the entire source for HDOS 2.0 and subsequently compiled it successfully using the standard Heath assembler. There is also extensive discussion of the documentation history as well as information regarding the status of HDOS 3. Names and firms involved included Richard Musgrave, Bill Parrott, Dave Carroll, William Lindley (Woodbridge, VA!).
So, several of those names are recognizable as members of the early Heath community but I see no record in our archives that any of them are active here. The first question that comes to mind is whether on not anyone on the list knows the current status of any of these developers that we could approach with questions.
The next question that comes to my mind is "Does anyone know what happened to the CHUG archives"? IS there a chance someone has them? If available, a search just might produce the entire file set...
(snowed in and bored in Reston...)
steve
steve shumaker
Have you noticed the "software reference manual" for "H8 H88 H89 cassette system" on Ebay?
It appears to be documents only
Item is 180466353215
steve
West, Ronald S. wrote:
GC
cross-assembler on the 11/60 generated intel hex files which were
downloaded. The utility which downloaded them initialized memory with
the various data you might find in the DS statements, and wrote out a
binary file.
On Feb 10, 9:14 am, "Les Bird" <lesb...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> Glenn,
>
> That sounds like a really great plan. I'll certainly put the code up on the web site as it becomes available and I hope it gets mirrored, possibly to Mark's site too. It's important to have this stuff up on multiple sites in case one goes down for whatever reason.
>
> I think it might be a good idea to signup for free online cloud storage somewhere (I think Google has something like this) where we can deposit everything we have so anyone can get access to it. The entire SEBHC portion of my web site is only 1GB. Jack, any ideas here?
>
> From what I heard the source for HDOS was placed in the public domain but I have no idea where on planet Internet it is. Certainly would be nice to find it.
>
> - Les
>
> From: Glenn Roberts
> Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 6:58 AM
> To: se...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [sebhc] Reconstucting Heathkit source code
>
> Bob: I'm interested in helping. Perhaps we can orchestrate a process across the group to reconstruct and archive Heathkit source code. Over the years I've actually reconstructed some portions of the original HDOS source. Admittedly I started with the smaller pieces (BOOT, FLAGS, INIT, PIP, SET, SYSCMD) plus 100+ ACM (Assembler Common Module) files, but these now assemble to an essentially exact version of the equivalent HDOS binaries (not exact because the real HDOS binaries were assembled on cross-development machine, probably a PDP-11?, but the differences are only in the DS data spaces). I'm a bit of a "purist" and have tried to capture as accurately as possible the original format including comments.
>
> Why some of you may ask?? Source code is a product of human creativity, sometimes arguably a" work of art", especially software that was written to run on machines in only 8K or 16K of memory! Plus, by having source we can maintain and update them (e.g. patching HDOS for y2k is relatively straightforward). The HDOS code and associated H8/H89 ROM images are particularly professionally done. Gordon Letwin (later of Microsoft fame) and others who developed this system left us a wonderful legacy that deserves to be preserved. I can only wonder when the history books of the "microcomputer revolution" are written whether or not well bemoan the loss of so many valuable and interesting software artifacts. Where is the source code to Lotus 1-2-3? Or the original Microsoft Basic? Dbase III??? I'm afraid many of these have been lost.
>
> But we Have the source for HDOS and other Heathkit software - it was a revolutionary idea in its time: publish the source code for your microcomputer system; as far as I know Heathkit was alone in offering it (admittedly for a price, and even then only in hard copy form, but still.).
>
> We have to decide where and how to archive this code as we reconstitute it. Les' site seems to have become our de facto library, perhaps there? Or in our Google group archive? I would suggest that a requirement be that source files must assemble to the original binary file or ROM image. It would also be nice to try and capture as much of the original formatting and comments as possible. I do these a little bit at a time on my laptop. If we "divvy" them up across the group we could be pretty productive.
>
> Anyone interested?
>
> - Glenn
>
> p.s. having written this note I should have first asked - is there any possibility that these sources still exist in electronic format somewhere? Anyone on the list have an idea where or whom we'd ask?
>
> From: se...@googlegroups.com [mailto:se...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob Groh
> Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 10:31 PM
> To: se...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [sebhc] H-89 Manuals - assorted - cleaning house! Finally.
>
> I tried to OCR the listings for the project I did for the group sometime ago with absolutely no luck at all. Finally gave up and did it all manually. I'm going to start a new thread to carry on with some thoughts as I am still confused as to where we stand on the overall subject of source code.
>
> Bob Groh
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "SEBHC" group.
> To post to this group, send email to se...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sebhc+un...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/sebhc?hl=en.
Mark Garlanger
Even inside Canada, the guy wants $25 shipping.
Mark
Les Bird
way to configure the group so that a discussion topic change starts a
new thread?
- Les
Bill Beech (NJ7P)
Glenn Roberts wrote:
>
> Bob: I�m interested in helping. Perhaps we can orchestrate a process
> across the group to reconstruct and archive Heathkit source code. Over
> the years I�ve actually reconstructed some portions of the original
> HDOS source. Admittedly I started with the smaller pieces (BOOT,
> FLAGS, INIT, PIP, SET, SYSCMD) plus 100+ ACM (Assembler Common Module)
> files, but these now assemble to an essentially exact version of the
> equivalent HDOS binaries (not exact because the real HDOS binaries
> were assembled on cross-development machine, probably a PDP-11?, but
> the differences are only in the DS data spaces). I�m a bit of a
> �purist� and have tried to capture as accurately as possible the
> original format including comments.
>
> Why some of you may ask?? Source code is a product of human
> creativity, sometimes arguably a� work of art�, especially software
> that was written to run on machines in only 8K or 16K of memory! Plus,
> by having source we can maintain and update them (e.g. patching HDOS
> for y2k is relatively straightforward). The HDOS code and associated
> H8/H89 ROM images are particularly professionally done. Gordon Letwin
> (later of Microsoft fame) and others who developed this system left us
> a wonderful legacy that deserves to be preserved. I can only wonder
> when the history books of the �microcomputer revolution� are written
> whether or not well bemoan the loss of so many valuable and
> interesting software artifacts. Where is the source code to Lotus
> 1-2-3? Or the original Microsoft Basic? Dbase III??? I�m afraid many
> of these have been lost.
>
> But we Have the source for HDOS and other Heathkit software � it was a
> revolutionary idea in its time: publish the source code for your
> microcomputer system; as far as I know Heathkit was alone in offering
> it (admittedly for a price, and even then only in hard copy form, but
> still�).
>
> We have to decide where and how to archive this code as we
> reconstitute it. Les� site seems to have become our de facto library,
> perhaps there? Or in our Google group archive? I would suggest that a
> requirement be that source files must assemble to the original binary
> file or ROM image.
>
Assemble with what tool set? Are we talking just the original assembler?
>
> It would also be nice to try and capture as much of the original
> formatting and comments as possible. I do these a little bit at a time
> on my laptop. If we �divvy� them up across the group we could be
> pretty productive.
>
> Anyone interested?
>
> - Glenn
>
> p.s. having written this note I should have first asked � is there any
> possibility that these sources still exist in electronic format
> somewhere? Anyone on the list have an idea where or whom we�d ask?
>
Source for the CP/M exists and I have it minus the BIOS for the
machines. BIOS should disassemble fairly easily from a bootable image.
Have no idea where you would look for HDOS source in electronic format.
I agree that you need to save the source and the images.
Bitsavers might be a second place to stash the documents and code.
Bill
> *From:* se...@googlegroups.com [mailto:se...@googlegroups.com] *On
> Behalf Of *Bob Groh
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 09, 2010 10:31 PM
> *To:* se...@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* Re: [sebhc] H-89 Manuals - assorted - cleaning house! Finally.
Chris Elmquist
> The cross assembler did not create the info in the DS statements. The
> cross-assembler on the 11/60 generated intel hex files which were
> downloaded. The utility which downloaded them initialized memory with
> the various data you might find in the DS statements, and wrote out a
> binary file.
I'm curious what cross-development tools were used on the "11/60"?
Do you have any info on that? In this era, there was a company called
Boston Systems Office (BSO) that had cross-assemblers that ran on most
DEC operating systems. They were really nice tools. I wonder if those
were used?
I am trying to track down some of that stuff-- executables for RSX-11,
TOPS-10/20 or any of the documentation.
Chris
--
Chris Elmquist
steve shumaker
"The system was developed on a Digital Equipment UNIX-based PDP-series mini, cross-assembled for the 8080 MPU and downloaded to the H-8 for testing."
Does that shed any light or make sense in the current discussion?
Steve
Chris Elmquist
> The Thompson article I mentioned in the earlier post in this thread
> also makes an interesting statement about the early HDOS development
> environment:
> "The system was developed on a Digital Equipment UNIX-based PDP-series
> mini, cross-assembled for the 8080 MPU and downloaded to the H-8 for
> testing."
> Does that shed any light or make sense in the current discussion?
oh.. it does. If they were running Unix on the PDP, then it might not
have been the BSO Tasking tools that were used. I am not sure, but I
don't recall that they made them for Unix... just DEC operating systems.
Thanks for the datapoint!
Chris
--
Chris Elmquist
Glenn Roberts
VAX/VMS. Unix was being experimented with in research environments (Bell
Labs and universities) but the DEC stuff was "industrial strength". From
their coding and commenting style I'd say the HDOS authors were heavily
influence by the DEC culture (e.g. that's probably why the HDOS assembler
uses split octal notation - the PDP machines organized the front panel
around octal data entry).
- glenn
-----Original Message-----
From: se...@googlegroups.com [mailto:se...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of
Chris Elmquist
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 10:41 PM
To: se...@googlegroups.com
Thanks for the datapoint!
Chris
--
Chris Elmquist
--
Chris Elmquist
> Back then I think most commercial ventures ran the DEC OS'es and later
> VAX/VMS. Unix was being experimented with in research environments (Bell
> Labs and universities) but the DEC stuff was "industrial strength". From
> their coding and commenting style I'd say the HDOS authors were heavily
> influence by the DEC culture (e.g. that's probably why the HDOS assembler
> uses split octal notation - the PDP machines organized the front panel
> around octal data entry).
The MACRO-11 assembler on RSX-11 and RT-11 DEC operating systems was sort
of the "gold standard" in assemblers. There were numerous cross-assembler
approaches that used MACRO-11 macros to generate code for the non-PDP
target processors. But again, I don't think MACRO-11 ran on any Unix
implementation on a PDP-11 but that's not to say there wasn't another
macro assembler there that could have been used the same way.
Chris
--
Chris Elmquist
Gregg Chandler
below. The assembler was written in PDP 11 assembly, and ran on RT-11 and
RSTS/E (probably in the RT-11 run-time system). The PDP-11/60 ran RSTS/E.
The standard Unix ports would not run well on the 11/60 due to the different
way that it dealt with the Instruction and Data separation. Heath/Zenith
later acquired an 11/45 (?possibly 11/70) to run Unix. This work predates
the VAX and VMS. The assembler was written by Gordon. No outside tools
were used. Heath built its own tools. Codewise, the HDOS asm was basically
a port of the PDP-11 version (perhaps vice versa?). There was no
documentation. At some point, Rod Brahman ported the assembler to generate
F8 code. Fairchild demanded a copy of it. I believe Schlumberger owned
Fairchild and Heath at the time. They might have a copy of it.
Glenn Roberts
fascinating!
- glenn
-----Original Message-----
From: se...@googlegroups.com [mailto:se...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of
Gregg Chandler
Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 1:20 PM
To: se...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [sebhc] Re: Reconstucting Heathkit source code
Dave McGuire
> Back then I think most commercial ventures ran the DEC OS'es and later
> VAX/VMS. Unix was being experimented with in research environments
> (Bell
> Labs and universities) but the DEC stuff was "industrial
> strength". From
> their coding and commenting style I'd say the HDOS authors were
> heavily
> influence by the DEC culture (e.g. that's probably why the HDOS
> assembler
> uses split octal notation - the PDP machines organized the front panel
> around octal data entry).
I can confirm this...been a DEChead for most of my life. UNIX was
around on PDP-11 and VAX systems, but rarely outside of academia.
And despite modern UNIX implementations' very high efficiency today,
back then, it was dog-slow on that hardware. (anyone who has tried
2.11BSD on a PDP-11, even a fast one like an 11/83, knows what I
mean!) By comparison, the DEC OSs like RSX-11M, RSTS/E, and RT-11
were real screamers.
My personal favorite is RSTS/E, I run it on several systems here.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
Chris Elmquist
> Thanks Gregg. These views back into how the team worked are always
> fascinating!
Yes. Absolutely. Thank you. Great stuff.
Chris
--
Chris Elmquist
GC
to make it work on 11/60.
You should probably use the word "team" carefully. The Heath software
development group was very small in those days, and most software
projects consisted of a team of one. By in large, one person did the
CP/M development, another did the HDOS stuff, ... Occasionally,
someone would fix a bug, but there weren't teams of people revising
the OS. There were manual writers, technical support staff, and other
folks involved, but rarely a "team" of software developers. At some
point, Zenith started creating large development "teams", but that was
probably more an issue of politics. I am not sure those teams were
that effective.
Norberto Collado
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [sebhc] Re: Reconstucting Heathkit source code
Chris Elmquist
> Zenith started creating large development "teams", but that was
> probably more an issue of politics. I am not sure those teams were
> that effective.
Boy, that holds true in most organizations, more so, even today.
http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/images/stackoverflow-none-of-us-is-as-dumb-as-all-of-us.jpg
--
Chris Elmquist
Jack Rubin
GC
an 11/60 running RSTS/E. HDOS wasn't developed on an H11 (other than
perhaps minor stuff at home by Gordon) from the fall of 1978 on. The
work done on the 11v03 might have been part of the motivation for the
development of the H11. The 11v03 running (by then) HT-11 was then
used by the documentation writer to document HT-11. Floppies. 8"
floppies.
Heath actually did have an academic Unix license, just didn't run it
on the 11/60. Pulled some of the development tools off the
distribution tape, such as lex, yacc, ..., and recompiled them on the
11/60 with Whitesmith's C (Plauger). Surprised the pants off of the
expensive MIT consultant when it was revealed that the "valuable" mag
tape that he had brought us was just a scratch tape. Crap, utter
crap. Since we didn't have a Unix machine up yet, he didn't think we
would be able to read it, and he would be the hero offering to salvage
the development of HBasic. Oops. It's not that hard to write your
own version of tar.
On Feb 11, 3:35 pm, "Norberto Collado" <norberto.coll...@koyado.com>
wrote:
Dave McGuire
> Definitely OT but since Dave and Norberto are both online, why RSTS
> over RTX (assuming a single user on, perhaps, an 11/34A)?
Personal preference, mostly, and not a very strong one. RSTS/E
can run most RT-11 and RSX-11M executables through runtime systems.
In fact it has no "native" binary executable format of its own...ALL
binary executables are RT-11 *.SAV or RSX-11 *.TSK files.
I preferred the user interface of RSTS/E v9.x+, which is DCL, very
similar to that of VMS. I was already familiar with VMS so I was
happy to see DCL in the later releases of RSTS/E. RSX-11M seemed
more efficient, but RSTS/E was more feature-rich from the user's
perspective.
My first PDP-11, an 11/34a, was running RSX-11M when I got it
(around 1986), but then I got a copy of RSTS/E v9.4 and decided that
was what I wanted to run.
It wasn't a single-user machine, though. I had a 1200-baud modem
set to auto-answer and I gave accounts to some geeky friends. We had
a lot of fun on that system. Most teenagers who were lucky enough to
have their own phone line in those days used it to gab on and on
about nothing. I think I put mine (which was a birthday gift when I
was 15) to much better use. :)
Dave McGuire
> The MACRO-11 assembler on RSX-11 and RT-11 DEC operating systems
> was sort
> of the "gold standard" in assemblers. There were numerous cross-
> assembler
> approaches that used MACRO-11 macros to generate code for the non-PDP
> target processors. But again, I don't think MACRO-11 ran on any Unix
> implementation on a PDP-11 but that's not to say there wasn't another
> macro assembler there that could have been used the same way.
No, the UNIX assemblers were (and continue to be) very different,
and I don't think MACRO-11 was ever ported. Being written in
assembler itself, it wouldn't have been an easy program to port.
GC
(I believe Martin Minnow, one of the developers of RT-11,) was that
RSTS/E was a quick hack written in a few months (initially). It was
multi-user. Most of the system utilities were written in Basic. I
believe that they weren't actually compiled, but were just tokenized.
When you logged in to RSTS/E, you were prompted with the basic prompt,
and could write basic code at the command line. RSTS/E came with the
source to the utilities, and Gordon and I hacked them for
entertainment. The "login" program was written in Basic. The "System
Status, systat" program was written in Basic. The accounting program
was written in Basic. You get the idea ... Not the ideal machine to
hand to software developers. Also, remember that Unix had not been
commercialized at that point (1978). I believe release 6 was a pretty
non-commercial release. v7 I believe was more commercialized. To
further complicate matters, DEC would not service the machines unless
there running a DEC OS. Whenever they would show up, we would reboot
the 11/45 with a DEC OS so they would service it. When they left, we
would dismount the disk packs, and remount the ones we used.
(Remember, drives weren't partitioned then either.)
> >>For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/sebhc?hl=en.
Dave McGuire
> RSTS/E stood for Resource Sharing Time Sharing. My understanding from
> (I believe Martin Minnow, one of the developers of RT-11,) was that
> RSTS/E was a quick hack written in a few months (initially).
Yes. This was the case for most of the OSs.
> It was
> multi-user. Most of the system utilities were written in Basic. I
> believe that they weren't actually compiled, but were just tokenized.
This is correct, they were stored with extension .BAC (BAsic
Compiled) in a tokenized format. I believe there was a way to
compile them all the way to .TSK or .SAV files, but I never did that.
> When you logged in to RSTS/E, you were prompted with the basic prompt,
> and could write basic code at the command line.
Well, with very old (pre-v9) RSTS/E, this is true. As of v9, DEC
introduced DCL as another run-time system. You could still set your
run-time system to BASIC if you wanted to, though. RSTS purists
generally eschewed DCL and preferred pre-v9 releases, even though
they could still set their RTS to BASIC if desired.
DEC's BASICs, BASIC-PLUS and BASIC-PLUS-2, were incredibly
advanced implementations of the language. Even by today's standards
they're pretty amazing.
Jack Rubin
Jack
----- Original Message ----
> From: Dave McGuire <mcg...@neurotica.com>
> To: se...@googlegroups.com
> --You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
Dave McGuire
> OK - thanks for the input and sorry for the diversion - I'm
> resurrecting an 11/34A thus my interest. As an enduser some 35
> years ago, I only booted into RT-11, loaded my FORTRAN pack, and
> got on with my work. Now, as an "administrator", I've got a bit
> more interest in the underlying OS :>)
Sweet! Send pics!
Hey, did you get my other email regarding NCR5380 stuff, etc?
GC
compile the Basic programs. There was also no alternate command
prompt. I don't believe that VMS had been released at the time
either, so no DCL.
RSTS Basic was pretty powerful. Gordon wrote a Fortran compiler in
RSTS basic in two weeks. It was sufficient to compiler Adventure,
which we showed at a conference, and was eventually turned into a
product.
Dave McGuire
> In 1978 on the RSTS/E running on our 11/60, there was no way to
> compile the Basic programs. There was also no alternate command
> prompt. I don't believe that VMS had been released at the time
> either, so no DCL.
You were probably running v7 or v8. "That" RSTS/E was basically a
big "multi-user BASIC OS" with powerful file-handling capabilities.
Not exactly general-purpose. "My" RSTS/E (v9+) is a very different
beast, though the same OS at its core.
> RSTS Basic was pretty powerful. Gordon wrote a Fortran compiler in
> RSTS basic in two weeks. It was sufficient to compiler Adventure,
> which we showed at a conference, and was eventually turned into a
> product.
I'd love a copy of that!
GC
personal preference. It's been probably thirty years since I thought
much about RT-11, however, if memory serves, the RT stood for real
time. It was not real-time in the sense we might find today in an
RTOS you could buy for a micro, but when you examine the architecture,
I believe there was a guaranteed response time/consistency for many of
the system calls. That explains the bizarre file allocation
strategy. It also provided a good base for the popular laboratory
applications.
This is probably wrong, however, it is close. When you create a new
file, RT-11 wound find the biggest allocated block and divide it's
size by two. It would compare this to the size of the second largest
contiguous block, and pick the larger. The contiguity of the file
system also helped guarantee real time performance in a laboratory
environment. Eventually, the file system would become fragmented, and
there was a way to compact it.
The RSX file system was totally different from RT-11, which was
totally different from RSTS/E. RSX supported revisioning in a way
that RSTS/E nor RT-11 did. I remember that there was a way to make
the RSTS run time system do RSX styled revisioning.
RSTS/E focused on time sharing. It supported multiple users with
Project/User numbers. Not as complete as the implementation as
TOPS-10, but it worked for the 11/60. We had 16 serial ports. Not
all were used as interactive terminals. The machine could practically
only support one or two at 9600 baud. We mandated the rest run at
4800 baud. We used it as a spooler for CAD output files, and other
engineering functions of a minor nature as well. No bills-of-material
or anything of that sort.
GC
office, but am on the road. I'll check.
Although it wasn't my job, I did much of the important sysadmin on the
system. Even after I left the company. The sysadmin had died.
Accounts started to expire. They didn't know what to do. Although
it greatly pained the director of personnel, they paid me to come back
and bring the machine back from its slow death. I didn't take
financial advantage of the situation, but the director was pretty
unhappy to see me bailing them out yet again.
When compared to TOPS-10, it would be hard to call RSTS/E "big". It
was a useful engineering tool.
Dave McGuire
> I am not sure that the difference between these OS's was entirely
> personal preference. It's been probably thirty years since I thought
> much about RT-11, however, if memory serves, the RT stood for real
> time. It was not real-time in the sense we might find today in an
> RTOS you could buy for a micro, but when you examine the architecture,
> I believe there was a guaranteed response time/consistency for many of
> the system calls. That explains the bizarre file allocation
> strategy. It also provided a good base for the popular laboratory
> applications.
Well the OP asked (or so I thought!) why *I* chose RSTS/E over
RSX-11M. There are tremendous differences. RSTS/E is a pure
timesharing system, while RSX-11M has some real-time capabilities
that make it much more suitable for, for example, instrument control.
You are right about RT-11, and indeed it did have many of what
we'd consider today to be "real-time" capabilities. Predictable (and
fast) interrupt response time, mostly-deterministic scheduling, etc.
Dave McGuire
> If I had to guess, I would guess v5 or v6. I have a manual at the
> office, but am on the road. I'll check.
>
> Although it wasn't my job, I did much of the important sysadmin on the
> system. Even after I left the company. The sysadmin had died.
> Accounts started to expire. They didn't know what to do. Although
> it greatly pained the director of personnel, they paid me to come back
> and bring the machine back from its slow death. I didn't take
> financial advantage of the situation, but the director was pretty
> unhappy to see me bailing them out yet again.
>
> When compared to TOPS-10, it would be hard to call RSTS/E "big". It
> was a useful engineering tool.
Yes, but RSTS/E runs on PDP-11s, which are minis and quite small
compared to a DECsystem-10 or -20 mainframe. A big PDP-11 is four
racks, a SMALL DECsystem-20 is a dozen racks. Except for the KS10-
based DECsystem-2020, of course, which is a tiny Am2901-based
implementation in a single rack. I have one of the few remaining
machines of that model.
Jack Rubin
-----Original Message-----
From: se...@googlegroups.com [mailto:se...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of steve shumaker
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 2:01 PM
To: se...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [sebhc] Re: Reconstucting Heathkit source code
I'm curious if anyone has attempted to actually track back the history of the HDOS placement in the public domain. A while back I stumbled across something called "The Computer Journal,' a now defunct magazine. One of the principle authors, Mr Bill Kibler, now has some of it scanned and posted to his web site:
http://www.kiblerelectronics.com/
My interest was due to references to an article by one Kirk L Thompson who wrote quite a detailed article about HDOS and its development history. In emails with Mr Kibler, he offered to scan and email me the article but unfortunately asked that I NOT disseminate it further. Said article is by Kirk L Thompson and is titled "Letwin's Prior Progeny, Heath's HDOS, Then and Now," which appeared in Issue #43 of "The Computer Journal." Thompson was the editor of "The Staunch 8/89'ers'" a bi-monthly newsletter.
This article is a fascinating history of HDOS. In one tantalizing statement Thompson asserts that Dave Carroll, a member of the HDOS 3 development team acquired the HDOS 2 source code in machine readable form and copied it to 8" disks which were then given to Bill Parrott, another member of the HDOS 3 team. No further record of the media seems to be known - at least to Thompson. More to the point of this thread, he also states in the article that, using the source code listings sold by Heath, the Capitol Heath/Zenith Users' Group keyed in the entire source for HDOS 2.0 and subsequently compiled it successfully using the standard Heath assembler. There is also extensive discussion of the documentation history as well as information regarding the status of HDOS 3. Names and firms involved included Richard Musgrave, Bill Parrott, Dave Carroll, William Lindley (Woodbridge, VA!).
So, several of those names are recognizable as members of the early Heath community but I see no record in our archives that any of them are active here. The first question that comes to mind is whether on not anyone on the list knows the current status of any of these developers that we could approach with questions.
The next question that comes to my mind is "Does anyone know what happened to the CHUG archives"? IS there a chance someone has them? If available, a search just might produce the entire file set...
(snowed in and bored in Reston...)
steve
West, Ronald S. wrote:I too am snowbound as Dan is, but I am in Woodbridge, VA. I cleaned off one of the cars a while ago and went the mile or two to the grocery store. Wow what an adventure... You can't see 1/4 mile and the snow is blowing all over the place. The wife cooked up the eggs and bacon and made some toast and I sat down and had a breakfast feast. Man I could get used to this on a weekday. Usually I get a biscuit from McDonald's or a scone and a cup of coffee from Starbucks and then off to work.This is a cool idea. I have the same view of preserving the source code. I have worked on some modules myself but its time consuming. I think I did INIT also that was a short one. I typed in everything the original programmer typed. Everything. Comments, even misspellings. An attempt at preserving the source as close to orginal as possble. I know that is probably weird but I too feel like its important to preserve.At the time I was playing with the cassette version of BHB and decided to see if I could type the whole thing in from the listing. I am pretty sure I finished it and its on one of these disks. Not sure if its too usefull these days but I'll see if I can locate it and then send it in.Ron
From: se...@googlegroups.com on behalf of Dan Emrick
Sent: Wed 2/10/2010 10:45 AM
To: SEBHC
Subject: [sebhc] Re: Reconstucting Heathkit source codeAs Les noted, I don't know where "on planet internet" the source may
be either, but I will offer a small contribution.
I've added a file to my web site <http://www.danemricksite.net/> under
the Heathkit Projects page. The last link in the table leads to an
archive page (http://www.danemricksite.net/archive/index.php). Right
now it has only one file called HDOS.ASM. I think it is a
reconstruction, but it appears to be fairly faithful when checked
against the HDOS HOS-1-SL listing. Sadly it does not have all of the
comments, which as Glenn said, are very desirable. Maybe it will be a
good start toward a file that conforms to the published listing.
I'll check some more to see if I have sources for the overlays as
well.
I'll have to check with my host, but I may be able to mirror whatever
archives that we develop.
Dan
Snowbound in Springfield, VA
On Feb 10, 9:14 am, "Les Bird" <lesb...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> Glenn,
>
> That sounds like a really great plan. I'll certainly put the code up on the web site as it becomes available and I hope it gets mirrored, possibly to Mark's site too. It's important to have this stuff up on multiple sites in case one goes down for whatever reason.
>
> I think it might be a good idea to signup for free online cloud storage somewhere (I think Google has something like this) where we can deposit everything we have so anyone can get access to it. The entire SEBHC portion of my web site is only 1GB. Jack, any ideas here?
>
> From what I heard the source for HDOS was placed in the public domain but I have no idea where on planet Internet it is. Certainly would be nice to find it.
>
> - Les
>
> From: Glenn Roberts
> Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 6:58 AM
> To: se...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [sebhc] Reconstucting Heathkit source code
>
> Bob: I'm interested in helping. Perhaps we can orchestrate a process across the group to reconstruct and archive Heathkit source code. Over the years I've actually reconstructed some portions of the original HDOS source. Admittedly I started with the smaller pieces (BOOT, FLAGS, INIT, PIP, SET, SYSCMD) plus 100+ ACM (Assembler Common Module) files, but these now assemble to an essentially exact version of the equivalent HDOS binaries (not exact because the real HDOS binaries were assembled on cross-development machine, probably a PDP-11?, but the differences are only in the DS data spaces). I'm a bit of a "purist" and have tried to capture as accurately as possible the original format including comments.
>
> Why some of you may ask?? Source code is a product of human creativity, sometimes arguably a" work of art", especially software that was written to run on machines in only 8K or 16K of memory! Plus, by having source we can maintain and update them (e.g. patching HDOS for y2k is relatively straightforward). The HDOS code and associated H8/H89 ROM images are particularly professionally done. Gordon Letwin (later of Microsoft fame) and others who developed this system left us a wonderful legacy that deserves to be preserved. I can only wonder when the history books of the "microcomputer revolution" are written whether or not well bemoan the loss of so many valuable and interesting software artifacts. Where is the source code to Lotus 1-2-3? Or the original Microsoft Basic? Dbase III??? I'm afraid many of these have been lost.
>
> But we Have the source for HDOS and other Heathkit software - it was a revolutionary idea in its time: publish the source code for your microcomputer system; as far as I know Heathkit was alone in offering it (admittedly for a price, and even then only in hard copy form, but still.).
>
> We have to decide where and how to archive this code as we reconstitute it. Les' site seems to have become our de facto library, perhaps there? Or in our Google group archive? I would suggest that a requirement be that source files must assemble to the original binary file or ROM image. It would also be nice to try and capture as much of the original formatting and comments as possible. I do these a little bit at a time on my laptop. If we "divvy" them up across the group we could be pretty productive.
>
> Anyone interested?
>
> - Glenn
>
> p.s. having written this note I should have first asked - is there any possibility that these sources still exist in electronic format somewhere? Anyone on the list have an idea where or whom we'd ask?
>
> From: se...@googlegroups.com [mailto:se...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob Groh
> Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 10:31 PM
> To: se...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [sebhc] H-89 Manuals - assorted - cleaning house! Finally.
>
> I tried to OCR the listings for the project I did for the group sometime ago with absolutely no luck at all. Finally gave up and did it all manually. I'm going to start a new thread to carry on with some thoughts as I am still confused as to where we stand on the overall subject of source code.
>
> Bob Groh
>
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Norberto Collado
curious!!
Norberto
Dave McGuire
The very one.
-Dave
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