Too late for you!

[pjinoa...@comcast.net]

The monthly populairs for Sept-Nov are scheduled so you are off the hook (for organizing).

 

Thanks TONS to Ward and Audunn for volunteering for October (10/20) and November (11/3).  I understand both are cooking up new routes which may include a mix of challenging and pleasurable, and maybe a few new roads in the mix.  Watch for details on the Club Website.

 

The Bike Stand http://www.alpinex.com/bike-stand/ in Olympia has offered to help support the September populaire (Sept 16th). This ride will start and end at the Bike Stand, just kitty corner from the Fish Tale brew pub http://www.fishbrewing.com/brewpub/ .  This will follow the standard Olympia-Rainier-Skookumchuck Dam route.

 

If you were ever looking for an event to introduce an unsupecting friend to randonneuring this could be it.  A pleasant ride through the country with a great finish venue.  Weather guaranteed to be perfect or better, with tailwinds out and back.

 

Details and pre-registration on the club webpage soon.

 

www.drcodfish.blogspot.com

[Smith, Randal H]

Recently I’ve been putting in some miles with a goal to start riding with SIR again (my last SIR ride was long ago), but I’ve been having problems with hand numbness after 30 minutes or so, and, more irritatingly, shoulder soreness (which may not be entirely due to riding – but impacts my comfort level significantly).  Does anyone have any advice on either of these irritations?

 

Thanks in advance

 

Randy Smith

 

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[Pete Liekkio]

 

 

When I finally decided I was not able to resolve the same issues though mostly neck and shoulders, I decided to get bent. I currently ride a Bachetta Ti aero. The miles now roll comfortably. http://pliekkio.blogspot.com/

 

 

Keep Rolling,

Pete Liekkio

Seattle, Washington

 

 

---

From: Smith, Randal H [mailto:Randal....@boeing.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 1:50 PM
To: SIR Mail List
Subject: RE: [SIR] Too late for you!

 

Recently I’ve been putting in some miles with a goal to start riding with SIR again (my last SIR ride was long ago), but I’ve been having problems with hand numbness after 30 minutes or so, and, more irritatingly, shoulder soreness (which may not be entirely due to riding – but impacts my comfort level significantly).  Does anyone have any advice on either of these irritations?

 

Thanks in advance

 

Randy Smith

 

--

[Brad Hawkins]

I think it's important to move around a lot on the bike. Shift the hand position regularly. Get out of the saddle and pull on the handlebars on the hills. Make it full body. Additionally, make sure you aren't stretching out too far or putting too much weight on the handlebars. When the bars were low on my bike, I experienced many of the same maladies you express.

This is just a shot out there, but have fun!

Brad

--
Brad Hawkins
cellist, composer, arranger, conductor
206.417.5000

[Ron Himschoot]

This seems like a whole new thread, so I took it upon myself to start one.

 

I've been fighting carpal tunnel syndrome long enough now to know about what doesn't work for me, but not long enough to know what does.  It turns out that there are many causes for numbness in your hands and the cause of your numbness will guide you to a solution that works for you.

 

One cause of numbness is vibration.  If you hold on to a jack hammer all day, your hands are going to get numb.  The same thing goes for your bike.  Chip seal, bad patch jobs, broken concrete and otherwise rough roads cause a lot of vibration.  Some bikes transmit this vibration better than others while some bikes absorb the vibration better than others.  I'm sure Jan Heine has a treatise on this somewhere, so I wont go into the characteristics of wheels, forks, stems, handlebars and frame geometry that absorbs vibration.  If vibration is your problem, you can try to isolate your hands from it with padded gloves and/or padded bar wrap.  I layered a strip of 2mm sorbothan under my cork tape, but It didn't work for me.  Then again, I no longer believe that vibration is the cause of my problems.

 

Another source of numbness is pressure on the area of your palm where the nerves pass from the carpal tunnel to your finger tips.  Pressure on the nerves will cause numbness and will eventually damage the nerves.  There are several ways to reduce this pressure, including rotating your bars, raising your bars (or shortening your stem -- same result), or even changing your bars.   Sometimes wider, flatter bars, like Nitto Noodle Bars (my personal favorite) give you a better platform for your hands while a set of crit bars are meant to be ridden on the drops.  And sometimes the pressure is coming from the sides.  I've gotten some relief by taking off my gloves, which are too tight to begin with and get even tighter when my hands begin to swell.  Frequently changing your position on the bars will also help, but only if you can relocate the pressure when you do.  It doesn't do much for me because it seems like every position I've got still puts pressure on the center of my palm.  I've learned how to do some stretches while I'm riding if I can remember to do them at least once an hour.  This seems to help relieve the numbness, but doesn't prevent it.

 

A third source of numbness, and the one I currently suspect of being my problem, is that I tend to lock my wrists.  Whether I'm on the tops, on the hoods or on the drops it seems like my wrist is in a bad position.  Too sharp a bend in your wrist narrows down the opening from the carpal tunnel and pinches the nerves.  Again, the result is numbness and nerve damage.  On your computer keyboard they give you a wrist pad so you can't cock your wrist quite so much while you type.  Anything you can do to keep a nice straight line with your wrist in a  neutral position will help.  So far, I haven't found a position that lets me do that.  So I started using aero-bars.  Specifically, I use Syntace C-2 aero-bars with an optional 1 inch riser.  They mount above my handlebars and with the added 1 inch riser, they mount high enough to retain my hand position on the tops of the handlebars.  Not as aerodynamic as some bars, but that's not what I'm after.  The end result is that I'm in the same position as I am when I'm on the drops, I'm just resting on my elbows instead of my hands.  I ride them only to relieve numbness.  I never ride them in a group and certainly not in a pace line.  And too much time on the aero-bars will give you Schermer's Neck.  They also make a handy place to mount your route sheet.  Bonus.  Note: if you get aero-bars, you may want to lower the nose of your saddle just a bit to avoid numbness in a different area of your anatomy.

 

If aero-bars don't work, you may need to take Peter Liekkio's suggestion and get bent.  Anyway, I hope this gives you something to try and that some combination of things solves the problem for you.

 

 

-Ron (the club's curmudgeon) Himschoot

[Bill Gobie]

Ron hit most of the points I can think of. Thicker padding under the bar tape makes the bars larger which helps spread out pressure. Front suspension might help. A Pantour hub can transform a bike, but there is no dynamo option. Next would be an AM-series Moulton. A recumbent is the nearest thing to a guaranteed fix for problems Randal is having. High racers like Bacchettas perform quite well once you are trained on them.

Bill

[Jan Heine]

With numb hands, you have two issues:

1. Vibrations.

Vibrations must be taken care of at the source. Once your entire
front wheel is moving up and down 100 times per second, padded bar
tape won't do you much good. Suspension cannot absorb the
high-frequency vibrations, either. (Suspension is good on infrequent,
big hits, like expansion joints on concrete roadways or frost heaves.)

The only help for vibration are supple tires at relatively low
pressures. When I now ride a test bike with Schwalbe or Continental
tires, I am amazed by the buzz at the handlebars. Even in the same
width, the difference in comfort between a supple tire, like a
Vittoria Open CX Corsa or a Grand Bois, and the above-named, is
eye-opening.

2. Shape of handlebars.

You need to experiment with different bar shapes, and favor those
that allow you to move your hands. Padding on the bars can help to
make them conform to your hands, but may also be counterproductive
(see below). What also can help is riding for a few hours with
gloves, then take them off. Basically, change the contact points as
much as you can during the ride.

Personal anecdote: I got numb hands during the Spring 600. It got
worse, to the point where short rides caused hand pain. The day
before the Cascade 1200, I decided that I wasn't going to risk it, so
I changed my bars to a different shape (Grand Bois Maes Parallel) and
removed all the padding, wrapping the bars in just a thin layer of
cotton tape. The Cascade 1200 went fine, with no hand problems at all.

Finally, try to keep a light touch on the bars, rather than gripping
them tightly.

Disclosure: Our sister company, Compass Bicycles, sells Grand Bois
tires and handlebars.

Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
2116 Western Ave.
Seattle WA 98121
http://www.bikequarterly.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/

[Kent Peterson]

One more variable that nobody has noted yet.

If your saddle is too far forward, you can wind up with too much weight
on your hands. See Peter Jon White's website for a discussion of this.

http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/fitting.htm

Especially with Brooks saddles on modern bikes, it's hard to get 'em
back far enough. See:

http://kentsbike.blogspot.com/2010/09/brooks-saddles-and-saddle-position.html

Anyhow, hand (or neck or back problems) sometimes wind up from saddle
position issues. It's all connected.

Kent Peterson
Issaquah WA USA

[Jan Heine]

Kent makes a good point. A related issue is the tilt of the saddle.
Obviously, you don't want pressure on your private parts, but many of
us can ride with a slightly upward-sloping saddle without ill
effects. This prevents you from sliding forward, which otherwise
requires you to brace yourself with your arms.

The latest Bicycle Quarterly had a pair of articles on riding position...

Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
2116 Western Ave.
Seattle WA 98121
http://www.bikequarterly.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/

At 8:29 PM -0700 9/16/12, Kent Peterson wrote:
>One more variable that nobody has noted yet.
>
>If your saddle is too far forward, you can wind up with too much weight
>on your hands.

--

[Vincent Sikorski]

A year or so ago I read a article on saddle position and weight on hands. The article that Kent refers to is only part of the story. You weight is supported by the saddle, pedals and handlebar. At low intensity, the weight supported by the pedals is minimal. Your center of gravity is around your belly button. If you only move your saddle back, you need to increase your forward lean to reach the bars. This shifts your center of gravity forward, minimizing the effect of moving the saddle back. If you move the saddle back, you should also put on a shorter stem to keep your reach the same. Or conversely, only shorting the stem shifts you into a more upright position which will shift your center of gravity rearward and take weight off your hands. 

As we get older our flexibility decreases. I know mine has. Only moving your saddle back without shorting the stem back may marginally relieve hand pressure at the cost of lower back pain. 20 years ago I used 110 mm stem length. Now most of my bikes have 90 mm stems. My newest mountain bike uses a 80 mm stem. My hands used to bother me quite a lot while mountain biking. (I keep the saddle fairly forward to be able to hang my butt off the back for steep technical descents.) Really don't notice much hand problem now with the short stem.

Vince

Begin forwarded message:

[vmuo...@comcast.net]

Mark Thomas completed 5 1200K's so far in 2012.

I would like to know his experience with this.

Vinny

---

From: "Vincent Sikorski" <vsik...@bendbroadband.com>
To: "SIR Mail List" <seattl...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2012 9:33:59 AM
Subject: Fwd: [SIR] Numb Hands

[William Beck]

If you will pardon this message from outside your area, I would also love to hear from Mark. I should have asked him while I was sitting next to him in the lobby after the NC 1000/1200K with my numb fingers and toes. How indeed does he do 5 1200Ks in one year and still feel all of his appendages??

 

Bill Beck

[Mark Thomas]

Bill, Vinny -

Beware studies with sample size of one. But I'm happy to share my experience and what I use that seems to work for me.

I've been pretty fortunate, I guess. Of the three body/bike contact points (feet, backside, hands), only my feet seem to bother me after long rides.  I get some lingering numbness in my feet. I'm planning to try some wider shoes to see if that helps.

The combination of Assos Fi.Mille bibshorts (or their bibknickers in the winter) and Fizik Alliante saddle maybe gets the credit for the low incidence of butt problems. I've used many different saddles over the years, most of which (Brooks being the notable exception) treated me well. I am a believer in the Assos shorts - after I switched to those, I pretty much stopped using anything else on longer events. (I just wish they weren't so damn expensive). I'm not a big chamois cream user, but will use some on multiday rides. Honestly, though, I suspect that my good luck on this score is attributable more to the many miles on the bike all year-round than to any gear choices.

As for my hands, I occasionally get numbness in my hands early in rides (especially when cold). So far, that numbness has tended to dissipate or disappear as the ride goes on and does not linger after the ride. My hands felt a bit battered in July when I rode the Colorado High Country and the Rocky Mountain 1200s in a 2.5 week span. They were better in a week or so.

What seems to work for me (in no particular order):

I think that my position on the bike is pretty average - not particularly upright, but not extended way out either. My saddle is relatively horizontal.

My wheels have Continental Grand Prix 4-Seasons 28mm tires inflated to 90-105psi. 

I have different bars, but the bikes that go on long rides have Fizik gel pads under the tape. (I have Brooks leather bar tape on two bikes and pretty standard stuff on the others).

On a four-day 1200, I bring four different pairs of gloves, usually of at least three different makes. That has seemed to work better for me than using one "perfect" set of gloves for the whole ride. On my most recent 1200, those gloves included 2 pairs of pretty basic Pearl Izumi gloves with some gel padding, my treasured VOmax Boston-Montreal-Boston gloves (same make as the current RUSA gloves, I think), and some older Assos gloves. One pair of the PI gloves is probably at least a size too large. This seems to help with the early-ride numbness, but was a bit of a chafing disadvantage on the very humid (for me) Carolina 1200.

Post-ride, I apply cold beer bottles (or, in a pinch, cans) directly to my palms.

I try to vary my hand positions over the course of the ride, mostly between the tops and the hoods. I don't seem to use the drops much. My handlebars are probably rotated up and back just a bit more than StyleMan would suggest, but not much. I'd like to give myself more shock absorption by not locking my damn elbows so much, but the photographic evidence from rides suggests that I've completely failed in that regard.

Especially on long events, I try to ride on a cushion of rando-induced euphoria. It may dampen vibrations.

Mostly, I think I'm just lucky. 

Mark

[geoff....@comcast.net]

The application of cold beer applied to lips has been found to generalize the numbness - reducing the concern about hand numbness, at least until dropping the beers becomes an issue. Switching to cans at that point is suggested.

Geoff

Sent from my HTC One™ S on T-Mobile. America’s First Nationwide 4G Network.

----- Reply message -----
From: "Mark Thomas" <ma...@muthomas.net>
To: "SIR Mail List" <seattl...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: [SIR] Numb Hands
Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2012 2:52 PM

Bill, Vinny -

Beware studies with sample size of one. But I'm happy to share my experience and what I use that seems to work for me.

I've been pretty fortunate, I guess. Of the three body/bike contact points (feet, backside, hands), only my feet seem to bother me after long rides.  I get some lingering numbness in my feet. I'm planning to try some wider shoes to see if that helps.

The combination of Assos Fi.Mille bibshorts (or their bibknickers in the winter) and Fizik Alliante saddle maybe gets the credit for the low incidence of butt problems. I've used many different saddles over the years, most of which (Brooks being the notable exception) treated me well. I am a believer in the Assos shorts - after I switched to those, I pretty much stopped using anything else on longer events. (I just wish they weren't so damn expensive). I'm not a big chamois cream user, but will use some on multiday rides. Honestly, though, I suspect that my good luck on this score is attributable more to the many miles on the bike all year-round than to any gear choices.

As for my hands, I occasionally get numbness in my hands early in rides (especially when cold). So far, that numbness has tended to dissipate or disappear as the ride goes on and does not linger after the ride. My hands felt a bit battered in July when I rode the Colorado High Country and the Rocky Mountain 1200s in a 2.5 week span. They were better in a week or so.

What seems to work for me (in no particular order):

I think that my position on the bike is pretty average - not particularly upright, but not extended way out either. My saddle is relatively horizontal..

[David Roberts]

 

I get the best results from having my saddle set well back, bars level with a level saddle, being fairly well stretched out, and having pairs of different models of gloves, changing them out maybe every 100 miles. I differ with those who advocate a short stem and more upright position. I find having the hands more forward is easier on the back and hands. Easier on the back because the back can absorb shock in flexion rather than compression. Easier on the hands for one thing because the level arm is longer, thus less pressure is necessary to apply the same torque about the hinge point at the saddle. Also with the bars rotated back to about what the pros are using now, and the forearms closer to horizontal, it's possible to keep the wrists straight while holding the side of the hood and resting the wrist on top of the bar. This takes most of the pressure off the hands. I alternate between that, conventional hood position, and bar tops with elbows well bent. Having the hands well forward enables the arms to form a sort of leaf spring suspension for the upper body, taking most of the shock out of the system, as the arms are not in column. As has been mentioned, straight wrists make a big difference.  For safety, when on the hoods I hook my little finger behind the bar.

 

I think a carbon fork makes a big difference in vibration damping. Carbon bars also help by all accounts, though I'm unlikely to spend that kind of money on bars. I don't think padding does much, since we spend so much time on the hoods. I also like aerobars, but realize they are not an option for many randonneurs. PBP year is a little late to start training without them.

 

David

 

[Vincent Sikorski]

 I also like aerobars, but realize they are not an option for many randonneurs. PBP year is a little late to start training without them.

 

David

I did have hand problems. Severe enough to have had nerve conduction studies and a MRI. I do have significant nerve impairment and nothing on MRI that could be surgically fixed. 

The nerve damage is from repeated abuse. I do use aerobars for all long rides and found that this prevents further damage. I have done all my training before the past several PBP's all on aerobars. Only long ride I do without using an aerobar is PBP. For me, I've found there is no need or reason to train without them for PBP. When in the "aero" position my back is bent more and my neck is also bent more to look up. When riding without the aerobar on PBP, my neck and back are very comfortable due to riding in a more relaxed position. Nerve damage is cumulative. Protecting my hands with aerobars resulted with only minimal hand numbness after 2011 PBP.  From my experience, you need to train with aerobars to be comfortable using them for long periods of time. Going the other way is easy and natural.

Vince

[Smith, Randal H]

I want to say thanks for all the advice on hand numbness and back issues (which I think are not caused by the riding, but aggravated by it).  I’m trying a few things out and will see what happens.  I am growing particularly fond of the “apply cold beer bottles” point made by Mark Thomas.  

 

I hope to see some of you on the road in the future.

 

Randy Smith
425-965-5920

[Jan Heine]

I just realized that we posted a long article about numb hands on our
blog a while ago:

http://janheine.wordpress.com/2010/12/11/avoiding-numb-hands/

Jan Heine

[Jan Heine]

Trying again, with the right subject - sorry about that...