Looking for GPS Recommendations

[Charlie White]

I'm sure that this has probably been covered before in this group, but I am looking for recommendations on the best GPS to use for randonnuering.  After last Saturday's 200k out of Bellingham, I am ready to give up (or at least supplement) rain soaked, ink smeared paper route sheets.  Given that so many of you are using GPS navigation, I can't help but believe that there are some opinions on what is the best GPS to use.

[Albert Meerscheidt]

Try printing your cue sheet on  waterproof Adventure paper from REI.

One thing I've noticed is a drop in cue sheet quality - I guess as more organizers / pre riders have gps. Things like turn at xxxx - sign missing or @ T are so often left off cue sheets nowadays. Has any else noticed this?

On Mar 18, 2013 8:59 AM, "Charlie White" <cha...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm sure that this has probably been covered before in this group, but I am looking for recommendations on the best GPS to use for randonnuering.  After last Saturday's 200k out of Bellingham, I am ready to give up (or at least supplement) rain soaked, ink smeared paper route sheets.  Given that so many of you are using GPS navigation, I can't help but believe that there are some opinions on what is the best GPS to use.

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[Ray Whitlock]

That's good info, Albert. I had no idea such a thing existed!

I can't vouch for the quality of the cue sheets, but I can say the GPS files have been incredibly accurate lately! I'm not sure if it's because they've been posted to RideWithGPS.com or what, but I do know that for the Spring Populaire and the Escape from Seattle rides, I didn't have to refer to the cue sheets a single time.

[Todd Sahl]

A Garmin 800 completely eliminates the need for a queue sheet for me for rides up to about 16 hours, if I customize the course points before the ride. The turn by turn directions on the Garmin 500 are not good enough.

 

I have not used either of the new models the 810 and 510, but Mark Thomas has been using an 810, he might have some good feedback on it.

From: Charlie White <cha...@gmail.com>
To: seattl...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, March 18, 2013 8:59 AM
Subject: [SIR] Looking for GPS Recommendations

I'm sure that this has probably been covered before in this group, but I am looking for recommendations on the best GPS to use for randonnuering.  After last Saturday's 200k out of Bellingham, I am ready to give up (or at least supplement) rain soaked, ink smeared paper route sheets.  Given that so many of you are using GPS navigation, I can't help but believe that there are some opinions on what is the best GPS to use. --

[Eric Peterson]

Charlie,

I think you will find there are two basic camps for GPS rando users.
One promotes use of GPS models designed for cycling (e.g. the Garmin
Edge models such as the 800)
The other promotes use of what are termed handheld GPS models (e.g.
the Garmin eTrex models such as the Vista HCx or eTrex 30).

The cycling specific models typically use integrated Li-ion batteries
(not field-replaceable) and have cycling-specific features (e.g. HRM,
cycling cadence, lap timing, etc).
The handheld models typically use AA batteries (field replaceable) and
have some useless features (e.g. Hunting and Fishing charts).
The handhelds are typically less expensive than the cycling-specific models.

My preference has been towards the handheld models (specifically the
excellent Vista HCx - which has been sadly been discontinued).
I use rechargeable NiMh batteries in mine (which have lasted up to 24 hours).

The handheld and the higher-end cycling-specific models provide good
support for navigation and maps (which you must typically purchase
separately). My comments are Garmin-specific because that is the only
brand I am familiar with.

Hope this helps,
Eric Peterson
Naperville, IL

[Nicholas Bull]

Hi, Eric,

I am also mostly familiar with the handheld GPS's and thought I should respond about recent test results.  After testing the successor to the HCx -- the eTrex 20 or 30 -- and then corresponding with Garmin, I've determined that those units are no longer suitable for randonneuring, as far as I am concerned.  In the HCx, when you are navigating a route, there is an option to tell it that if you go off-route, it should not automatically recalculate.  That option is no longer available in the 20/30 models, so if you miss a turn, then the GPS just recalculates the route and no longer tells you that you missed a turn.  And because you can no longer see the route you should have been on, it can be difficult to even figure out where you missed the turn.  They have no plans to fix this problem, and it is not present in the 800/810, which continue to have the option to turn off off-route recalculation.  Since I can't afford to shell out for an 800/810, I bought a "New Old Stock" HCx on EBay for a couple of hundred dollars.

What I don't know, and maybe an 800/810 user can respond, is how well the 800/810's work for following a track (not a route).  When people make a route in Ride with GPS, what actually gets downloaded to your GPS is a track.  For an HCx user, following a track is not all that useful, because the GPS does not warn you of upcoming turns.  So at night, you have to have the backlight turned on all the time and be good at keeping track of the cue sheet and street signs.  Sort of just like in the pre-GPS days :-)

It's my understanding that the 800/810 can follow a track and use it to give warning of upcoming turns.  Is that correct?  Or am I oversimplifying or misunderstanding?

Thanks,

Nick

[Smith, Randal H]

From my memories of some past rando rides, those hunting and fishing charts in the handheld models may not be all that useless. :^).

Randy Smith
425-965-5920

[Eric Peterson]

Hi Nick,

I looked at those new models are REI a while back and was not impressed overall.
Your testing summary confirms my gut feeling about those models, which
is too bad given that the Vista HCx was a great product.
Ha! - I too just made a "last-time buy" after scouring the Internet
and buying one from Campmor.

However the lack of this feature would perhaps not be a show-stopper
for me, since I often navigate by tracks rather than routes.
Well that often depends on how many turns and if I have any
familiarity with the course being ridden.
Navigating by routes is a two-edged sword since the GPS unit may
sometimes navigate differently than when the route was constructed on
the computer. Of course, having both the track and the route loaded
minimizes this problem.

If a unit could navigate by a track that would actually be a pretty
cool feature.
But the battery limitation would be a big problem for me - I would not
want to have to deal with that on longer rides.
For both of these I have no direct experience since I do not have an
800-series product.

Eric

[Nicholas Bull]

Others with more experience can chime in, but I think that the battery-life issue on the 800/810 is easy to work around.  There are after-market products that do the job, including battery-based or dynamo-based USB chargers, or you can make a built-it-yourself MintyBoost charger. 

[Bill Gobie]

Just to bring Charlie and any others not familiar with GPSs up to speed, let me explain tracks vs. routes. A track is a series of closely spaced points, typically 20-100 ft apart. The GPS plots a line connecting the points and you follow the line. My understanding is Garmin's bike-specific units can generate turn warnings from a track and this is the attractive feature for randonneuring. You download a track file to your GPS and you are ready to go. 

A route is created from a series of waypoints. Waypoints are typically widely separated. They are specific places you wish the route to pass through, such as controls. The GPS calculates a route that passes through the waypoints and gives turn warnings along the way. Automatic routing typically does not follow a brevet's meanders, so usually you have to insert some additional waypoints to follow a brevet course. Garmin's computer software can convert a track file to a route; but still I find it often deviates from the track. So you have to spend some time on your computer before a ride preparing a GPS route file. In my experience my GPS often routes differently in the field than at home in simulation mode; fortunately it can display the brevet's track at the same time, so I can see if the turns it calls for are correct.

I have been using a handheld unit, a Garmin Oregon 450. The Oregon series uses a touchscreen. I chose it because it runs on AA batteries and it seemed easier to operate than non-touchscreen units; I now think I was mistaken on the latter. It is often hard to see and maddeningly difficult to operate -- this is not your iPhone's touchscreen. The new Oregon 600 series is supposed to have a much better touchscreen, more visible and responsive. They are due out very soon.

The other type of handheld uses physical buttons instead of a touchscreen. These are units like Garmin's eTrex and GPSmap series. They have brighter but smaller screens. People say the buttons are easier to use on a moving bicycle than a touchscreen. 

Touchscreen models are easier to use if you intend to enter data or program the unit in the field, away from a computer. On a touchscreen you just tap letter icons to enter text. On a unit with physical buttons you have to navigate the cursor to each letter icon. This is one reason I chose an Oregon. But after using it for several years, I find I rarely do text entry in the field.

I do not think there is an ideal GPS for randonneuring. You have to pick the combination of pros and cons that seems best for you. On balance I like having a GPS. I recently forgot to a load route for a ride and had to use the cue sheet. I had forgotten how much effort it takes to navigate with a cue sheet -- keeping track of my place on the route, remembering the name of the next turn & repeatedly double checking during longer segments, and the strain of reading the sheet on a moving bicycle. 

Bill

[Nicholas Bull]

Hi, Bill,

To make a route file that follows the cue sheet, the method I find that works well is to make a waypoint for the start, then "create route" from that waypoint, clicking at each point on the map where there is a cue (which puts a "viapoint" there).  As you're going along you have to check that the computed route follows the correct road, but if you have it set to compute "shortest route" and set the slider halfway between "Prefer minor roads" and "Prefer highways" and set for "automobiles," then it generally does.  If not, you can click on the route and drag it over to the road that you need to ride.  You keep putting viapoints at the cues until you get to the next control.  Make a waypoint for the control and then add it to the route.  I always start a new route at each control since then when you look at the turn-by-turn directions on the GPS, it shows you how far it is to the next control.  If you set the GPS to compute "best route" and "shortest distance" for automobiles then in my experience the route as computed on the GPS matches well with the route as computed on your PC.  I can't remember the last time that a route that I created took me off course.  Most of my routes are east coast, but I've also made routes for riding in Washington and for PBP.  It takes a little while to make a GPS route, but no longer than it takes to make a RWGPS route.  In either case, doing so helps you to familiarize yourself with the course, so it's worth doing even if you don't have a GPS.

On our website at DC Randonneurs, we post the settings people should use for their GPS, but we also put dreadful warnings that they should continue to rely on the cue sheet and use the GPS only as an adjunct.  I always have the cue sheet in the "window" of my handlebar bag.  The GPS does a nice job of reminding me to turn, since it seems I'm often too scatterbrained.  But with the cue sheet there, I can always check that the turn matches the cue.  For night-time, while I'm standing at the control eating, I compare the turn-by-turn directions in the GPS with the cue sheet to check that they match.  And having reviewed the cue sheet I can check street signs at the turns to make sure they are what I remember reading.

Nick

[Lynne Fitz]

a letter-paper-sized ziploc type bag works wonders for keeping the cue sheet dry.  For rides that don't go over two pages, I never have to open the bag.

[Josh Parrish]

I used a ziploc bag with my cue sheet for the Bellingham 200K on Saturday (my first brevet!) However, I'd recommend not putting your phone in the same bag, as it may fall  out onto chipseal causing the screen to shatter while you're moving to the second page of your cue sheet. Grr.

At any rate, all this discussion of cue sheets, GPS and navigation is helpful. I'd prefer keeping my 200K brevets to 200K, rather than 210K (I managed to only get lost once on Saturday.) To that end, next time I might mount the ziploc'd cue sheet on my handlebars for easy access. For those who have navigated without a GPS device - do you ever print out a route map in addition to the cue sheet?

Thanks!

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[T Brett]

Josh,
 
I've never printed the route map, but will try, a day or two before the ride, to look closely at a supplied mapping, or just bring up Google Maps, and follow the cue sheet instruction by instruction along the map.  Will try to have a good feel for where the course goes, and look for any points where I think the course may be a little tricky.
 
I do try to download the cue sheet in a format that I can modify (xlsx).  This allows me to increase the font size and set the page breaks, and perhaps to add my own annotations.  For brevets with night riding, I may even try to memorize a portion of the route, say a tricky portion that I'll be covering during the night.  I'll try to load my own memory with up to 7 to 10 instructions, which will hopefully cover a good chunk of distance.  The memorization also seems to help me stay more alert and engaged in the ride, at a time in the ride where that may be difficult.
 
TomB
 

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Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 13:17:07 -0700
Subject: Re: [SIR] Re: Looking for GPS Recommendations
From: key...@gmail.com
To: fitz....@gmail.com
CC: seattl...@googlegroups.com

[Bill Gobie]

I copied Thomas Guide maps for my first couple of brevets and learned they were not needed. I second Tom's advice to trace the route online. Studying transitions onto and off of bike trails can be very helpful, particularly if you anticipate being there at night. 

Bill

[Susan Otcenas]

I purchased a Garmin 800 prior to PBP.  I had concerns about going to France and trying to navigate in the dark, with unknown-quality route signage (I'd heard tales of signs going wayward as "souvenirs" late in the ride, and as a slower rider, didn't want to worry about this), and in a country where I did not speak the language.   Not being as fast as Chris Ragsdale, an extra 40km would have no doubt meant an end to my PBP.  So, I bought the GPS.

 

To answer the OP's question:

>>I am looking for recommendations on the best GPS to use for randonnuering.

I can only speak to the 800, as it's my first and only experience.   The 800 has a lot going for it, but a few drawbacks as well.   On the plus side, it's supremely customizable, so you can program the screens to give you as much or as little data as you want, in whatever format you want.  As a bit of a data geek, I like that.  

 

I also like that it gives audible off-course warnings, so if you are in lala land, or falling asleep on your bike, the gps shakes you back to awareness quickly, before you go more than a few hundred feet in the wrong direction.  Has saved my bacon several times.

 

I like that there are screens for elevation profile, so you can see just how far you have left to climb.  That can be encouraging, or soul sucking, depending upon what the screen displays...  :-)

 

Battery life has been OK, but not excellent.  Seems like I used to get through most of a 300K without needing a battery backup, but now, after two years of use, that's closer to 200K.  Battery life is better in warmer weather than cold.

 

I've never had any trouble with it operting in the rain.  That said, the USB connector seems to be a weak point, and it's due to the "weather cap" covering not being particularly water tight.  The connector corrode.  Lots of units are getting warranteed by Garmin for failure to connect to the computer.  I actually managed to "fix" mine by cleaning the contacts with an electronics safe contact cleaner.   But I still find that it's now finicky when connecting to my battery backups.  I have two power monkeys that sometimes work and sometimes don't when I try to connect them up to the GPS when the battery is low.   I have a new Tekkeon battery backup that seems to connect without any difficulty though.   I think the power monkey problem is temperature related, but I'm still sussing that out.

 

 

Comments related to whether or not to use a GPS in general:

 

The cue sheet is in the unit - all the turn by turn directions are listed on one screen.  Although I still carry the paper cue sheet, I rarely look at it unless there's a discrepancy or a confusing intersection.  But it's not like I'm just blindly following a line on a screen.   I check the cue screen to see where the next turn is often, the name of the road, etc.  The advantage over paper is that instead of having to do the mental math of "well it was 2.5 miles to the next turn, but I've traveled 1.8, so that 0.7 miles from now and I'm at 52.3, so I'm looking for the turn at 53.0..." the GPS makes life a little easier by constantly updating it's cue sheet with distance to next turn.  That's pretty sweet.  

 

No more flipping over soggy wet cue sheets.  Awesome.

 

I found nighttime navigation with a cue sheet very difficult, as I had a hard time reading the sheet in the dark, focusing on printed letters, with my headlight bouncing off the shininess of my map case.  The gps is backlit, but not super bright, so it's not hard at all to focus on the screen to see where I am and how far to the next turn, without killing my night vision. Not only does this save me time, but it means I can focus on the road and potential road hazards, instead of taking my eyes off the road and trying to focus on the cue sheet.  That's a good way to run over or into something.   Also, because I don't use a handlebar bag, I had a hard time finding a map case to hold my cuesheet in the first place.  Good riddance.

 

Susan

 

 

 

 

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Team Estrogen, Inc.

www.TeamEstrogen.com

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From: seattl...@googlegroups.com [mailto:seattl...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Josh Parrish
Sent: Monday, March 18, 2013 1:17 PM
To: fitz....@gmail.com
Cc: seattl...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [SIR] Re: Looking for GPS Recommendations

[Kinesis Photo Gear]

Here's a few solutions for cue sheet management (shameless plug).
~ RWS

[Geoff Swarts]

I will not claim this to be the “best GPS to use”, but will note that both the Garmin Edge 705 and 800 have served me well for 10,000K + per year when I use them with TCX files. These are “breadcrumb” type files where the Garmin does not “navigate” … but merely follows the breadcrumbs. Any other type of file (e.g. GPX, GPXX) inserts navigational differences that are subject to the map and navigational algorithms of the unit – trouble.

 

That being said:

 

1)      Never trust the GPS unit … the route sheet is the official route and any GPS file, even if supplied by the route organizer/owner, is simply an aid.

2)      The GPS unit, when the file has been reviewed beforehand and is using a “breadcrumb” type file, is indispensable. I have been on rides where:
(a) I’ve been able to ride through an intersection where 6-7 Randos were standing around scratching their heads at 2 AM looking at their cue sheets (they quickly followed),
(b) have relied on the GPS to show me where to turn where the fog was so thick you couldn’t see the edge of the road from the middle of the road, and
(c) have been reassured late at night in the middle of the mountains that, yes, I was on the right road in spite of there being no signs of life nearby.

3)      If you turn it off to save your batteries, you might miss that turn and ride for miles in the dark before you realize it J. Have a way to recharge the battery so you keep it on.

 

Geoff

--

[Bill Gobie]

Thanks Nick. I think I have used the method you describe. I will give it another shot. I cannot find a "Prefer Minor Roads/Highways" slider in Base Camp (Garmin's Mac software). 

Mention of automatic route recalculation prompted me to see whether my Oregon has this feature. It does, and it has been set to Auto. So maybe this is why my GPS has led me off route many times. Once I get off route, it recalculates and takes the bit in its teeth, as it were. I've changed recalculation to Prompted, which I hope will alert me to being off route.

The GPS routes differently than the computer software. I have to iterate checking the route on the GPS, adding viapoints on the computer and rechecking on the GPS. Not surprising, given different code executing on different hardware. The computer software should have an emulation mode for each Garmin device.

A GPS may help keeping from getting lost on the road, but first you have to avoid getting lost in cyberspace!

Bill

[Nicholas Bull]

Hi, Bill,

I used to have BaseCamp installed but had to delete it from that computer to save space.  I just re-installed it, and a few seconds was all it took to remind me what a cruddy user interface it has!  Anyway, I guess the closest that you can probably get is to tell it to compute for automotive, shortest distance, and avoid freeways.  Though I guess there are some places out west where you're allowed to ride on the freeway.

I do find it helpful when I'm making routes to just eyeball the map looking to see if there is what appears to be a shortcut and then make sure to put a viapoint on the cue-sheet road so that the GPS won't be tempted to take you the wrong way on the ground.

Good thing you found that offroute recalculation setting in the Oregon!

Nick

[Bill Gobie]

On Mar 18, 2013, at 11:17 AM, Nicholas Bull wrote:

After testing the successor to the HCx -- the eTrex 20 or 30 -- and then corresponding with Garmin, I've determined that those units are no longer suitable for randonneuring, as far as I am concerned.  In the HCx, when you are navigating a route, there is an option to tell it that if you go off-route, it should not automatically recalculate.  That option is no longer available in the 20/30 models, so if you miss a turn, then the GPS just recalculates the route and no longer tells you that you missed a turn. 

I looked at REI's GPS offerings yesterday. The current Oregon 450 software does not have the option to turn off automatic recalculation. (Mine does, version 6.10.) The GPSmap62 does not have it. Montanas have the option, but those are too honkin' big to put on a bike. It seems a fair guess the forthcoming Oregon 6xx series will not have it.

According to this thread, the option was added to the Oregon x50 software sometime in 2012, but now seems to have been removed. So it's not like it's impossible for Garmin to include the feature.

 http://tinyurl.com/cyxa7y8

Bill

[Bill Gobie]

Or it could be the older GPSs for sale now do not have a recent software version, so updating might add the automatic recalculation option. I'm not going to venture upgrading mine on the chance the feature was removed. Garmin's paltry documentation does not mention recalculation options.

Garmin's products make me think their developers are forbidden from using smartphones and two-button mice.

Bill

On Mar 21, 2013, at 9:26 AM, Nicholas Bull wrote:

Interesting.  I figured it is just a firm-ware thing.  Wonder why Garmin is so brain-dead as to take out a useful feature.

Apparently, though, Garmin has had serious issues dealing with software people.  A year or two ago, their entire Base Camp software team quit, en masse.

Nick

[Nicholas Bull]

When I looked recently at the latest version of the HCx documentation, the description of the off-route recalculation setting had been removed in the documentation and replaced with stuff about "off-road transition".  But the off-route recalculation setting is present in my HCx and there is no off-road transition setting.  I guess I had better avoid ever allowing Garmin to "update" my GPS and turn it into a brick.  Probably a good idea to be very careful about updating the 8xx units in case they make the same change there.  I emailed their tech support about the off-route recalculation setting, six months ago, and again a few days ago just to double-check whether they plan to add this setting back in to the eTrex 20/30 series.  They confirmed that they do not plan to add this back in.

[Charlie White]

So, I broke down and bought a Garmin 810.  Working on downloading maps (I can't believe a GPS doesn't come with usable maps), and tried to download a TCX file of Saturday's ride.  Apparently there is a bug with the 810, and you can't download TCX files yet.  Garmin claims they are working on a software update and it will be available in a month.  Thus far I am less than impressed with Garmin 810.  I am going to try to download GPX Track file next, hopefully it will work.

[Bill Gobie]

Hi Charlie,

Is the bug in Garmin's software that lets browsers save files to the
gps (Garmin Connect?), or in the gps that prevents it finding/using a
tcx file? I have no specific knowledge of the 810, but when your gps
is plugged in to your computer it should appear as an external drive.
You should be able to manually copy the tcx file to the appropriate
folder on the 810.

Bill

[Charlie White]

The issue is on the Garmin 810 specifically, it works just fine on the 800. You can copy a file to the "new files" folder and the Garmin is supposed to convert that to a course when you disconnect from the host computer. Apparently they screwed up the firmware on the 810 and it can't handle TPX files. The file remains in new files without conversion. They claimed that they have a firmware update coming out next month that will fix it. It does allow for GPX track files, but that seems like a less than optimal solution as it doesn't bring the cuesheet with it. A bit disappointing but at this point I am going to take them at their word and expect a fix next month.

Charlie

[Steve Davis]

Do any of these Garmin units (other than the 700 and 800 series) support TCX courses? This would make the ability to turnoff auto re-route not as critical.  As far as I know, you have to get the 700 or 800 series to get the ability to use the functionality available with TCX routes and this means shelling out $600 plus dollars for a GPS.

--

[Eric Peterson]

The Vista HCx does not support TCx files.

For me, the basic navigation capabilities of the Vista HCx have served
me very well.
It is step up from a cue sheet, since it shows you where you are,
where you've been, and where you are headed.
Not to mention useful information such as average speed, moving and
total, time stopped, and elevation gain.
It is even capable of turn-by-turn instructions once you figure out
how to create Garmin routes
I remain mystified why riders who navigated for years with just cue
sheets are so keen on having a device like the 700 or 800 series that
provides so much more information.
Especially considering that those models cost double the price for a
Vista HCx, and do not have field-replaceable batteries.

Please note that I do not intend this a criticism of purchasers of
what I'm sure are other fine Garmin products.

Eric Peterson
RUSA 2812
Naperville, IL

[Bill Gobie]

The attraction of the tcx-capable units is you download the file and
go (unless you have a brand new 810!). Not much more fuss than
printing a cue sheet. Creating routes for other units takes some time
and learning.

Addendum regarding Oregon 450's for sale at REI: They have a pretty
old software version, 4.40, which makes them about two years old-in-box.

Bill

[Kole Kantner]

Charlie,

You might try a TCX to FIT converter program like this:
http://www.teambikeolympo.it/TCXConverter/TeamBikeOlympo_-_TCX_Converter/TCX_Converter_ENG.html

Kole

[David]

Apologies for returning to a topic from 2 weeks ago.  I have been using a Garmin 800 for the past 3 or 4 years.  I worked through the most common bugs/quirks after the first year or so, but those bugs/quirks and much of the response to the question below suggest to me that Garmin's days are limited, especially with riders younger than the average randonneur who have never used a printed map in their lives because they have a smartphone.

It seems to me that the longer-term GPS solution will be to use an iPhone or Android smartphone with a dynamo hub-driven USB charger.  Google Maps is so much better than anything Garmin has ... and the Mapmyride app for iPhone looks pretty good as well, though I have used it only for very short distances.  I don't really want a GPS unit telling me when I go "off course".  I only want to be able to look at a map when I have doubts about the cue sheet, and see the course drawn on the map.

But of course the USB charger would need to function even when the dynamo light is on so the iphone battery does not get fully drained quickly at night ... and a really water proof holder would be required.  And it may not work as well in rural areas of the western U.S. as in parts of the world with more dense population and full 3G/4G mobile phone coverage ... 

Is anyone successfully using their smartphone as a GPS navigation device for Brevet-length rides?  Planning to do so? 

[Nicholas Bull]

I can tell you that on approximately much of the Shenandoah 1200 (basically anywhere in West Va), you will have no cell phone coverage, meaning no google maps.  Also, on PBP, data will most likely cost an astounding amount.  Recently, driving in the Phoenix, AZ area, about 20 miles out of town there was no cell phone data coverage so google maps disappeared.  I guess if you confine your brevets to urban areas, your smartphone might be a useful navigation device :-)

I used to think that Garmin was at the model T stage, but on further thought I don't even think it's there, yet.  But for practical purposes, it's still the only game in town for serious long distance navigation.  Unless you want to just stick with cue sheet & odometer or just cue sheet.

Nick

--

[Josh Parrish]

Maps can be cached for offline use:
http://www.phonearena.com/news/Google-Maps-update-that-brings-offline-mode-now-live-in-the-Play-Store_id31697
http://howto.cnet.com/8301-11310_39-57462845-285/save-maps-for-offline-use-in-google-maps-for-android/

[Mark Thomas]

iPhone has GPS functionality independent of cell service. Just need some onboard maps. OSM maps are free and can be added to phone with app like MapsWithMe. Great way to save data $ when traveling.

Mark

[Nicholas Bull]

Hi, Josh,

That sounds very useful.  Wonder whether it's feasible to download the PBP route maps?  Unfortunately, I'm still on my work Blackberry so this is still in my future ... maybe.

Thanks,

Nick

[Nicholas Bull]

OK, I stand at least partially corrected on the usefulness of smart phones for brevet navigation!  I've also used OSM maps with my Garmin and they seemed like a potentially good approach for saving money there, too, instead of buying Garmin's maps. 

Nick

[Mike Sturgill]

I used OSM maps while in France. They were woefully incomplete. They will be dependent upon someone mapping, and keeping them up to date, in every particular region. It's a hit or miss proposition unless you make the maps yourself. I've had similar experiences using OSM maps in the US. As much as I love all the technology, cue sheets are still such a simple and elegant solution for the need.

[Brian Hanson]

I use a BioLogic ReeCharge for commuting and a few brevets over the past year.  While my use of it on long rides has been limited to all of one brevet that was long enough to toast the battery on the iPhone, I found it a struggle to keep the phone charged even with the lights off.  I barely made it with any battery after 10 hours starting from a full iPhone battery and full case battery.  This was with the SON Delux, but I haven't seen the SON 28 do much better in terms of keeping the phone at 100% for an extended ride.

To use the maps offline is no problem - it's also easy to load gpx files in the iPhone GPS apps (I use Cyclemeter and MotionX).  The real bummer for me is the size (the Garmin bike units are nice and small) and fighting the battery drain. 

Brian
Seattle, WA

[Lynne Fitz]

installing...