Re: Help deciding on a heat pump system

[James W Little]

International Commission Votes To Allow More Climate-Friendly Refrigerants in Air Conditioners & Heat Pumps

The Geneva, Switzerland-based International Electrotechnical Commission (IEC) voted unanimously to allow hydrocarbon refrigerants (e.g. propane), to replace hydrofluorocarbon refrigerants, in ACs and heat pumps.

Refrigerant: Global Warming Potential (GWP)

HFC 410a                4,320

HFC 32                    2,900

HC 290 (Propane)         3

"Propane and other hydrocarbon refrigerants have been safely used in refrigerators in Europe and elsewhere for decades and, in recent years, that use has extended to the U.S. The use of propane in air conditioners, however, has been blocked by safety standards that appliance manufacturers and environmental advocates say are overly restrictive and designed to protect the interests of U.S. chemical manufacturers. ...

The update to the international safety standard, which had been under discussion and revision for nearly seven years before the recent vote, is widely seen as a key first step for the expanded use of more climate-friendly refrigerants. However, U.S. safety standards and local building codes would have to adopt the new international standard before U.S. retailers can sell air conditioners and heat pumps that use propane or other hydrocarbon refrigerants. That process could take years.  

U.S. regulations and building codes follow national safety standards set by UL and the American Society of Heating, Refrigerating and Air-Conditioning Engineers (ASHRAE). ...

'We’re currently caught in this vicious cycle where the more air conditioning and heating we use, the warmer the climate gets and the more we need air conditioning,' Vince Romanin, CEO of heat pump manufacturer Gradient, said. 'The refrigerants we use today are not sustainable and scalable to a world where everyone has access to comfortable buildings that don’t make warming worse.'

When Romanin started his company five years ago, he sought to use propane refrigerant because of its low climate impact. However, he has been stymied by U.S. safety standards.  'We’re really excited about what IEC has done and we’re looking forward to the U.S. pushing change through faster to get similar rules for natural refrigerants,' he said."

On April 28, 2022, James W Little <little...@hey.com> wrote:

So the Gradient Heat Pump ($1,999 & self-install) is half the price of the Ephoca ($3,295 + installation costs). Both use the R32 refrigerant with relatively low global warming potential (GWP 677) but Gradient is seeking changes to U.S. regulations to allow R290 (propane) in their heat pumps, given that the refrigerant circulates only in the outdoor unit. Gradient also uses a smaller volume of refrigerant since there are no external hoses. See review HERE for more details.

Given the urgency and scale of our climate emergency, the Gradient Heat Pump should be considered as it avoids the opportunity cost of the Ephoca and is more climate-friendly. 

Jim Little

On April 27, 2022, "Jonlin, Duane" <duane....@seattle.gov> wrote:

...and along with the equipment cost, there's the cost of cutting two 6-inch holes through the wall, plus a 1-inch hole for the condensation pipe, and then finishing the trim-out at the exterior terminations. This cost could vary a lot depending on the type of exterior finish material. Plus the extension of a 208V wire out from the panel to the unit - will you surface-mount the wire in a raceway, or will you break up and then replace the interior finish in order to run the wire through the studs, or maybe you have a basement ceiling right below on which you could run the wire?

Doing major surgery to an old house is always an adventure!

DJ

	Duane Jonlin, FAIA Energy Code and Energy Conservation Advisor City of Seattle Department of Construction and Inspections P.O. Box 34019, Seattle, WA 98124-4019 P: 206.233.2781 |  duane.jonlin@seattle.gov
	As stewards and regulators of land and buildings, we preserve and enhance the equity, livability, safety and health in our communities.

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From: Thad Curtz <oly...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2022 8:55 AM
To: Tom Balderston <ecod...@gmail.com>
Cc: Jonlin, Duane <Duane....@seattle.gov>; Thor Peterson <thorsp...@gmail.com>; hollytownes <holly...@comcast.net>; James W Little <little...@hey.com>; Western Washington Home Electrification <seattle-home-e...@googlegroups.com>; Mike O'Brien <mobse...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Help deciding on a heat pump system

 

CAUTION: External Email

On Apr 26, 2022, at 11:41 PM, Tom Balderston <ecod...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> These are exciting... a like what we have been waiting for for multifamly.    I'm concerned the price may be pretty high.

Here’s what they quoted me for a wall unit - as the message from them I passed on said, they expect to be stocking them in Vancouver later this year, so I assume the shipping costs from Italy wouldn’t apply at that point, but I’m not sure...

1 Each: AWP10N4H2 AIO Wall Mounted Standard; Net Each: $ 3,295.00 + Shipping Costs From Italy
1 Each: AWE10N4H2 AIO Wall Mounted Standard With 900 Watt Strip Heat; Net Each: $ 3,570.00 + Shipping Costs From Italy
1 Each: AWK10N4H2 AIO Wall Mounted Standard With 1,800 Watt Strip Heat; Net Each: $ 3,675.00 + Shipping Costs From Italy

According to the product codes these are 240V, hardwired, R410a, without ERV, Design capacity of 10,500 Btu/h.

They do have specs for the ducted units; you can download the full brochure on the top left of this page if you’re interested…

https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=31323334-50bba2bf-31321b84-4544474f5631-b3cef6313baf05d8&q=1&e=e1334118-b7c3-4921-b66b-af762adfcd8c&u=https%3A%2F%2Fephoca.com%2Fdocumentation%2F

Best wishes,
Thad

[Jonlin, Duane]

Jim,

Agree. 

But man, it's taken years just to get the Class 2L "mildly flammable" refrigerants approved. I don't know how we'd get propane through the national process against that massive resistance.

DJ

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From: James W Little <little...@hey.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2022 4:58 AM
To: Thad Curtz <oly...@gmail.com>; Tom Balderston <ecod...@gmail.com>; Jonlin, Duane <Duane....@seattle.gov>; Western Washington Home Electrification <seattle-home-e...@googlegroups.com>; Mike O'Brien <mobse...@gmail.com>; Thor Peterson <thorsp...@gmail.com>; Holly Townes <holly...@comcast.net>