advice on Mitsubishi model H2i

[Tom Balderston]

Hello all.   Getting close to ordering a DHP from Mitsubishi  to start replacing my gas furnace.      Can you advise on whether it is worth the extra cost to buy the "H2i"  models?  It looks like they move the  HSPF from about 11  to 12 or more.   It Isnt much in direct energy cost savings,  but the units will perform better at very low temperatures.    Since those temps are relatively rare in Seattle.      Do you think it is worth it?

thanks, 

Tom Balderston

[Dan Wildenhaus]

Hi Tom and all,

I love the hyper heat units, let me start there. They truly are amazing machines! But even as Greg from Mitsubishi says, it's about Right Sizing for your home and local environment. Also, I am prone to "Dansplaining" so with that in mind, here's my Danswer.

Of course, you'll have done a Manual J, or utility bill analysis or existing system runtime analysis to get your heating load. Just for an example, let's say it's around 28,000 btu/hr, with a cooling load of around 8,000 for your North Seattle home. I'm a big fan of using the NEEP Advanced Sizing Tool when addressing the Manual S portion of the equation. I do my best to use the Man S bounds as a sizing guide, but then I use the tool to specifically compare equipment to an actual home. Here's the link for NEEP, just click on Click here for Access https://neep.org/heating-electrification/ccashp-specification-product-list 

Here I did a search for Mitsubishi, ductless equipment, ENERGY STAR rated with a reasonable heating capacity range:

Next up, I am going to look at both an H2i and non-hyper heat model of the same size. Just to make it easy, I'll pretend were doing the whole house with one DHP:

Here's an M Series non-hyper heat

 and the predicted performance (looking at the heating side of things): 

This system would do around 98% of your space heating without supplemental heat! Very little chance of low-load cycling, and a modulation range or "Goldilocks Zone" that looks terrific! (That's looking at how much of the Load x Hours blue bars are covered by the yellow area of the graph and the total turn down ratio, or the max capacity at 47 over the min capacity at 47).

Now here's a hyper heat P Series of approximately the same size:

 and her predicted performance: 

Unbelievably great cold weather performance! But as you suggested, not really necessary for North Seattle. If we look at the same metrics, Percent Annual Heating Load Served (99.8% a smidgen higher than the M Series), the Percent Annual Load with Low-Load Cycling (20.4% - also higher than with the M Series), and the Goldilocks Zone (has a slightly HIGHER low-load cycling % and a LOWER turndown ratio of 2.8 compared to the M Series turndown ratio of closer to 7 - OK, OK, some people calculate turndown as Rated Capacity over Minimum Capacity, which is still 2.8 for the H2i and only 5 or so for the M Series). 

So bottom line, both will do most/all of the heating with very little supplemental heat. The H2i will definitely perform better when it is really cold. But, what does Seattle spend most of its time hovering around temperature wise? If you look at just the Load x Hours graph of the city or even better these awesome visualizations from weatherspark, you'll see that it's the moderate winter (very cold to cold, almost no Freezing), and cool to cold spring and fall that need the attention. 

  

https://weatherspark.com/y/913/Average-Weather-in-Seattle-Washington-United-States-Year-Round 

Something like the M Series will have you covered! 

If this home had a poor envelope, was facing abnormal prevailing wind, and if Seattle City Light had skyrocketing electric costs, it might be worth it to go hyper heat.

Overall, apologies for Dansplaining my way through it, but using the awesome tools available to us through NEEP, BetterBuiltNW, and Weatherspark are a great way to KNOW what you likely already know and can really help customers and stakeholders with coming around to a Right Sized system.

https://weatherspark.com/y/913/Average-Weather-in-Seattle-Washington-United-States-Year-Round

https://ashp.neep.org/#!/product_list/

https://ashp-production.s3.amazonaws.com/NEEP_ccASHP+Heating+Visualization+User+Guide_v2.2_TRC_04.01.22.pdf

https://hvac.betterbuiltnw.com/Account/Login.aspx?ReturnUrl=%2fSite%2fsite.aspx

Cheers from West Palm Beach FL,

Dan Wildenhaus

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[Jonlin, Duane]

Tom,

What's the cost difference?

DJ

	Duane Jonlin, FAIA Energy Code and Energy Conservation Advisor City of Seattle Department of Construction and Inspections P.O. Box 34019, Seattle, WA 98124-4019 P: 206.233.2781 |  duane.jonlin@seattle.gov
	As stewards and regulators of land and buildings, we preserve and enhance the equity, livability, safety and health in our communities.

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From: seattle-home-e...@googlegroups.com <seattle-home-e...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Tom Balderston <ecod...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2023 11:30 PM
To: Western Washington Home Electrification <seattle-home-e...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: advice on Mitsubishi model H2i

 

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Hello all.   Getting close to ordering a DHP from Mitsubishi  to start replacing my gas furnace.      Can you advise on whether it is worth the extra cost to buy the "H2i"  models?  It looks like they move the  HSPF from about 11  to 12 or more.   It Isnt much in direct energy cost savings,  but the units will perform better at very low temperatures.    Since those temps are relatively rare in Seattle.      Do you think it is worth it?

thanks, 

Tom Balderston

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[Tom Balderston]

about $4-500

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Tom Balderston
BALDERSTON ASSOCIATES
11208 1st Ave NW
Seattle WA, 98177

[Tom Balderston]

Dan... i love you!

[Tom Balderston]

Dan

yes   i have a manJ  - we have been running HeatCAD software for clients for some time.    This  is  fantastic guidance.  I hope it is valuable to others in the group.     I think  our Built Green  builders are often not doing proper right-sizing so we just hope the variable range of the mini splits they are using is close!

My envelope is  decent  but getting a bit better.     It was a major remodel  in 1991-1994  with the upstairs and living room  done with 2x6.   about half of it has  1" or 2" rigid on inside or out.   I think we did  rigid unfaced EPS on the inside of the remaining 2x4 walls.  I did it back then  with LP Lap siding  which rotted or otherwise failed on the south side.  Were re-siding now  on South and east  with LP smartside.    Unfortunately  the windows are  old  weathervane  wood windows... not Low-e  back then.    were also re doing the crawl  with 2" EPS   under the 2x6  framing.    My BDT is about 6 Ach50...   kind of embarrassing for an energy auditor's house!   

All the best to you...  Hope Santa and his team of  'gators   arrive on time  when Florida awokes for Christmas day!

On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 3:30 AM Dan Wildenhaus <wilde...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Mike O'Brien]

Hi Tom - 

I am now an installer of these and will share my experience.

The cost difference between a Hyper Heat vs regular will depend on the size of the system, but for a typical Seattle house (2000 sq ft)  with a ducted system, the hyper heat is about $800 more.  The energy efficiency ratings are sometimes slightly better and sometimes slightly worse, but overall it is about better performance at low temps as opposed to energy efficiency.

Regular units start to have noticeable performance drops when outside air temps are around freezing and the hyper heat keeps it up to about 5 degrees F before noticeable deterioration happens.  As you note, the temps typically don't get that cold, but when they do, folks typically don't want to have an underperforming unit on the coldest day of the year.

I generally recommend Hyper Heat to customers for whom this is the sole heat source.  We are getting more variable weather and longer cold snaps seem like a real possibility, at least in some years, and if you are spending $10k plus for a system, and extra $800 to ensure it works when you need it more seems like a small investment.

Another thing to note is that the hyper heat units also come with a base pan heater, where the regular units don't (they can be added for $500+).  Heat pumps can condense at the exterior unit when they are in heating mode (winter) and in an extended cold snap, that moisture will freeze in the base pan and start to build up and can eventually inhibit performance or cause it to stop working altogether.  Again, pretty rare to have those cold temps, but greenlake did freeze over a few years ago, so it's not unheard of.  As an installer, the last thing I want are dozens of unhappy customers on the coldest day of the year, so I urge most people into hyper heat and try to make it as cost competitive as possible.

The occasions where I recommend non-hyper heat are some combination of:

1. They are mostly buying for AC and have another heat source (often radiant floor or radiator)
2. It is for heating but they have an alternate source like a wood stove
3. They are very cost conscious and the extra dollars for hyper heat may push them into a gas furnace
4. They are the Seattleite who is happy suffering a bit when it is cold and wearing all their ski gear in the house

If you are not in one or more of these categories, I recommend hyper heat.

The one thing that I am adamant about not doing is going with a regular unit and then adding heat strips.  The heat strips will almost certainly cost more than the hyper heat to install, and when they kick on (hopefully rarely) it is an electric resistance furnace boost which is not very efficient

Happy to chat more if you have more questions.

Cheers, Mike

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****************************
Mike O'Brien
MOBse...@gmail.com

If you are needing to prioritize other things, including self-care, please do not feel obligated to respond immediately.

[Tom Balderston]

Thank you Mike!  Very useful advice. I'll repost it to my 5-10 yr Carbon Action Plan FB group if you don't mind. 

A good freind gave the same advice. They have a standard DHP and really don't have enough heat when it gets very cold... and are tired of having to fire up space heaters.

[Mike O'Brien]

So glad you found it useful. Please do share. 

Mike

Mike O'Brien 

On Dec 22, 2023, at 11:38 PM, Tom Balderston <ecod...@gmail.com> wrote:



[Brian Gix]

Would these H2i "HyperHeat" units work well for non-minisplit applications? I have an old (100yo) ducted home with a 33yo natural gas 88,000 BTU furnace that will need replacing soon. Most advice I've gotten have recommended  "duel fuel" solutions that kick in a (significantly smaller) natural gas heating element if the temperature drops too much. Would an H2i condenser negate the need for duel fuel? Would it require more 220v circuits in my breaker box?

The 88,000 BTU number is straight from my existing furnace, and if anything it pumps out too much heat in when turned on, so that number could perhaps be smaller.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/seattle-home-electrification/2C94D13E-6E59-4407-8D56-500211EABAB1%40gmail.com.

[Mike O'Brien]

Hi Brian-

Yes - hyper heat works great for ducted solutions (non-mini split). That’s what I have in my house and it’s about 2/3 of what we install. 

The ducted units are a little less efficient than mini splits in part because they have to work harder to push air through the entire house and sometimes the ducts go through unconditioned space, but it’s what we strongly recommend for folks replacing an existing gas or oil furnace because it’s a lot more cost effective to heat and cool each room using existing ducts as opposed to installing a bunch of mini splits. 

I wouldn’t go off your existing gas furnace for determining the BTU needs of the home. You should do (or have someone do for you) a manual J calculation. We don’t even look at the gas furnace size anymore.  If you want to give me  your address, I can do a quick Manual J. for you so you have a reference point. 

I don’t understand why folks are recommending dual fuel. Perhaps they know something I don’t, but just this week I was checking with Mitsubishi again because a client was told by another installer they either needed dual fuel or back up heat. Mitsubishi agreed with me that in that application (again) it was not necessary. 

I would never go with dual fuel because my whole purpose of starting the company was to get fossil fuels out of homes. So I’m a bit biased and not really interested in hearing the arguments, so perhaps take that into account, but I’m still confident I am right. 

Basically, with Hyper Heating in western washington, there is no reason to have a back up heat source for cold weather. 

Occasionally, we have a home whose BTU needs are larger than a residential Mitsubishi product ( lots of square footage or poorly insulated). In these cases (1 of our 40 installs so far) we install a heat strip - basically a back up electric resistance furnace that will only kick in when the system senses it cannot keep us with the heating needs. Our experience from people with them (not installed by us) is that they almost never come in, but it’s a piece of insurance and it’s not a fossil fuel. 

I’m excited to share what it feels like when I get to call the gas company to come get their meter. Hopefully in the next month. I’ve eliminated 5 gas appliances so far. 1 to go. 

 

Mike O'Brien 

On Dec 23, 2023, at 11:39 AM, Brian Gix <bria...@gmail.com> wrote:



[Robin Briggs]

FWIW, we got a Mitsubishi Hyper Heat a year and half or so ago. We might not have gone for it, except that it was going to fit into the existing slot in our panel better than the otherwise cheaper alternative that was suggested. And when it got really cold last year, it kept the whole house warm without even breaking a sweat. So I don't know what the other alternative would have been like, but we're happy with the road we took.

- robin

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/seattle-home-electrification/01426389-7D1D-438F-8EDF-7426C2700619%40gmail.com.

[Jordan Van Voast]

We also have had Mitsubishi hyper heat split heads in a relatively large house and happy with performance over the past several winters here in Seattle.  Good work Mike!

Jordan Van Voast
206.860.5009
May all beings be liberated.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/seattle-home-electrification/CAM7L356fajkS%3Dc4gOucd6rKQ00QQpb1VhWw5ATf5WaXQFkjL0w%40mail.gmail.com.

[hollytownes]

Same for us...happy with ours. No electric strip backup and high efficiency and ability to go to low temps is why we got it. A few years back there was a long period of very cold and we were toasty. There was some ice built up on the outside unit but we removed with hot water for efficiency. We have had it for 4 years...very happy. Only issue was our NEST stat would not work with it. Don't like that stat does fully turn off fan when you don't need heat. We got an older model to solve this. They may have resolved this by now. 

Holly

Sent from my T-Mobile 5G Device

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[Mike O'Brien]

Holly - if you have the MH2K controller (https://www.acwholesalers.com/Mitsubishi-MHK2/p106135.html?psafe_param=1&gad_source=1), there is a setting to turn off that fan. It is in the locked side of the programming designed for only installers to get to it but I can walk you through it or can help you do it myself. 

Mitsubishi has the default that the fan in the air handler runs at extra low speed always so that you get some air circulation which I think is intended to reduce hot or cold spots in your home, but we give folks the option to turn that off if they like. I have mine turned off. 

Let me know if this is the controller/thermostat you have and if you want to change that setting. 

Cheers, Mike

Mike O'Brien 

On Dec 24, 2023, at 8:44 AM, hollytownes <holly...@comcast.net> wrote:



[Jonlin, Duane]

Mike, et al,

How about the noise readings at the property line, for a typical Seattle house with a 5-foot setback?

Also, how much power does it draw at peak?

DJ

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From: seattle-home-e...@googlegroups.com <seattle-home-e...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Jordan Van Voast <jorda...@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2023 3:05 PM
To: Robin Briggs <rbrig...@gmail.com>
Cc: Mike O'Brien <mobse...@gmail.com>; Brian Gix <bria...@gmail.com>; Tom Balderston <ecod...@gmail.com>; Jonlin, Duane <Duane....@seattle.gov>; Western Washington Home Electrification <seattle-home-e...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: advice on Mitsubishi model H2i

 

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[Mike O'Brien]

I’m not sure the best way to address the noise. We have tried taking noise reading using a phone app but I’m not sure that’s the best. I’m sure the noise levels will vary a lot by the specifics of the install: what is the building material behind it, does the wall cover undulate or not, is there landscaping nearby, etc. 

I can share the factory specs from Mitsubishi. For example this 36,000 BTU unit which pairs with an Airhandler is rated at 52 dba in cooling and 53 dba in heating. 

The non hyper-heat unit for the same 36,000 BTU air handler is rated at 55 dba for both heating and cooling. 

For power, are you looking for the MCA (max current ampacity) or some other nameplate rating or the reading we get in testing in real life? (I do t have the later but could do some tests.)

Mike O'Brien 

On Dec 24, 2023, at 2:18 PM, Jonlin, Duane <Duane....@seattle.gov> wrote:



[Jonlin, Duane]

...and one further question for the group:

If we're also planning to do a water heater conversion, should these be handled as one big project, or is it better to keep them separate?

DJ

	Duane Jonlin, FAIA Energy Code and Energy Conservation Advisor City of Seattle Department of Construction and Inspections P.O. Box 34019, Seattle, WA 98124-4019 P: 206.233.2781 |  duane.jonlin@seattle.gov
	As stewards and regulators of land and buildings, we preserve and enhance the equity, livability, safety and health in our communities.

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From: 'Jonlin, Duane' via Western Washington Home Electrification <seattle-home-e...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2023 2:18 PM
To: Jordan Van Voast <jorda...@gmail.com>; Robin Briggs <rbrig...@gmail.com>
Cc: Mike O'Brien <mobse...@gmail.com>; Brian Gix <bria...@gmail.com>; Tom Balderston <ecod...@gmail.com>; Western Washington Home Electrification <seattle-home-e...@googlegroups.com>

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