Help deciding on a heat pump system

[Mike O'Brien]

Hello heat pump fans!

My mother-in-law's gas furnace died this week (100 year old single family home in Fremont) and I have two bids for heat pump replacements and each bid has a ducted heat pump option and a ductless/mini-split option.

The house is one story with a partially finished basement, and has about 1000sf on the living floor with two bedrooms, one bath and kitchen, living room and dining room.

The two contractors are Energy Works out of Montlake Terrace and Resicon out of Tacoma.  Both seemed knowledgeable and professional.  Energy Works would be installing Daikin equipment, Rescion is installing Mitsubishi equipment. Neither of the estimators took any measurements in the house, let alone did any tests or calculations on how tight the house is or how insulated it is, so I am a little concerned that everything is oversized.  (The house is typical 100 year old, not very tight and not very insulated, so maybe their assumptions are safe.)

Here are some spec breakdowns:

Manufacturer	Duct?	Heat Size	HSPF	SEER	Indoor Sizes (BTU)	Backup Heat?	Total Price (inc tax)
Daikin	Ductless	24,000 BTU	12.7	18	18k, 9k, 9k BTU	no	$15,776
Daikin	Ducted	22,800 BTU	10	18	N/A	5kw	$16,258
Mitsubishi	Ductless	28,600 BTU	11	18	14k, 9k, 6k BTU	no	$15,206
Mitsubishi	Ducted	26,000 BTU	10.4	19	N/A	no	$17,366

I am interested in thoughts on:

1. Energy Works vs Rescion?  Any concerns with either.  Strong feelings I should try anyone else?  (I also tried Evergreen Heating and they said it would be September before they could come out to visit the site.)
2. Thoughts on Mitsubishi vs. Daikin?
3. Thoughts on a ducted system vs ductless?
4. Should I care about having a back up heat source?
5. Anything else you want to share.

Thanks for your input.

Mike

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[Jonlin, Duane]

Hi MIke!

You didn't tell us how many interior heads you'd have for the ductless, or whether the configuration looks like it is capable of keeping all the occupied areas of the house comfortable with open or closed doors. Would the ductless arrangement allow you to have different temperature settings in the different zones?

DJ

	Duane Jonlin, FAIA Energy Code and Energy Conservation Advisor City of Seattle Department of Construction and Inspections P.O. Box 34019, Seattle, WA 98124-4019 P: 206.233.2781 |  duane.jonlin@seattle.gov
	As stewards and regulators of land and buildings, we preserve and enhance the equity, livability, safety and health in our communities.

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[Mike O'Brien]

Thanks Duane.

The ductless system as designed by both teams, would have three heads, one in each of the two bedrooms and a larger one in the living room/dining room area. There is a bathroom between the two bedrooms that I feel confident would stay warm from the spillover from the two bedrooms. The larger head in the living room should cover the dining room and also the kitchen. My understanding is that the kitchen with the fridge and cook top will probably keep itself warm too. But what do you all think?

Mike O'Brien 

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On Apr 14, 2022, at 9:12 PM, Jonlin, Duane <Duane....@seattle.gov> wrote:



[James W Little]

No expert here, but would the Gradient Heat Pump be a consideration.  Supposedly available in Summer 2022.  Cost is $2,000 per window unit, installable by the homeowner.   Each unit heats & cools 450 sq ft.  Uses a refrigerant with lower global warming potential (R32).   

Jim Little

-- 

[Jonlin, Duane]

Mike,

Regarding mini-splits:

Are there currently warm air ducts that serve the aforementioned bathroom, dining room, and kitchen? There's a risk of having a substantial heat imbalance between spaces, especially if there's some air leakage, and single-pane glazing.

Do the bedroom doors stand open at night? If not, or even if they do, there might not be much "spillover," so the bathroom could be chilly, especially in the morning. A space heater on a timer might work to overcome that.

You won't get much useful heat out of the refrigerator, and the cooktop won't operate for that many hours per day, so you can't depend on those for comfort.

I bring up all this negativity because the worst thing would be to spend all this money and end up with an uncomfortable house. Somebody who knows what they're doing (not me, obviously) needs to look at the specific configuration.

By the way, would the house have any ventilation air, or would it just depend on air leakage?

DJ

	Duane Jonlin, FAIA Energy Code and Energy Conservation Advisor City of Seattle Department of Construction and Inspections P.O. Box 34019, Seattle, WA 98124-4019 P: 206.233.2781 |  duane.jonlin@seattle.gov
	As stewards and regulators of land and buildings, we preserve and enhance the equity, livability, safety and health in our communities.

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From: Mike O'Brien <mobse...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, April 15, 2022 1:32 AM
To: Jonlin, Duane <Duane....@seattle.gov>
Cc: Seattle Home Electrification <seattle-home-e...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Help deciding on a heat pump system

 

[Mike O'Brien]

Thanks Duane. Those are good things to consider and seem to align with using a ducted system. The house does not have a mechanical ventilation system other than the bathroom fan - just leakage. 

Mike O'Brien 

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 15, 2022, at 8:28 AM, Jonlin, Duane <Duane....@seattle.gov> wrote:



[Greg Stinson]

Hi,

We got a 36,000 BTU Mitsubishi HyperHeat installed two weeks ago at our 1600 SF 1970s split level that is reasonably tight.

We decided on a hybrid system with 24,000 BTU going to a ducted air handler and 6,000 BTU each going to 2 mini-splits in rooms where our old gas furnace didn't keep things warm.

We didn't give any thought to whether our ducts were the right size.

So far, we love the system!  And the mini-splits were likely overkill.

We let the temperature fall to 62F overnight and it is taking us 2-4 hours to get to our daytime setpoint of 68F with only the air handler running (and we've had some decently cold weather recently).

We leave the door to a downstairs office closed overnight and it only takes about 1 hour for it to go from 59 of 60F to 68F once the rest of the house has reached temperature.

We have been very impressed with the air handler's ability to circulate air.

I would choose the ducted Daikin with the backup heat, but be careful setting up the thermostat to make sure the backup heat doesn't come on except when it is really needed.

That said, one of the nightmares of the current heat pump offerings is the overwhelming number of models.  My parents got a crappy Daikin unit that has not kept their bedroom warm, but on the other side of their house, the same contractor (in Rochester, NY) installed a different Daikin model that has kept the rooms it serves comfortable even on the coldest days.  Based on the SEER=18, the Daikin unit is probably fine. 

However, if you have the money, I think it is worthwhile taking the conservative choice and having either a "cold climate" model or some sort of backup.

One more thing:  Daikin uses a lower GWP refrigerant, which seems preferable.

Thanks,

Greg

[holly...@comcast.net]

Hi

I installed the Mitsubishi HyperHeat in our 1800 SF home that includes a finished basement. It is ducted and has no back up strip heating. It replaced a ducted gas furnace. We had to upgrade our electrical panel so that is something to pay attention to. Does the electrical panel have the capacity for a heatpump?

 

We have had our unit for 2 winters now and love it. This included the winter where it got down to 17 F. We were toasty. It does take a while to heat up on cold mornings but the thermostat has an optimum start (which you need to enable) so figures out how much time it needs to be on to bring it up to temperature. So the length varies depending on how cold it is outside. We have always had to use space heaters at times in the basement since it is always colder than upstairs and there is only one thermostat. I calculated and it uses less energy to run the electric space heater for the basement ,when we need it, than to heat the whole house to a higher temperature to meet the needs of the basement. I considered a ductless for the basement for separate highly efficient temperature control but decided could not afford at this time.

 

Our only problem was that the most recent Mitsubishi thermostat has the fan running all the time, even when no conditioning is needed. I did not want that due to the duct noise and extra energy use. We have always had duct air noise. It was actually better than with our furnace since the fan is variable speed and often does not run at full speed. My contractor found the previous thermostat and installed that instead. That worked! I spoke to the Mitsubishi rep about this. He claims you need the fan to run at low speed all the time to keep air circulating in the home and to reduce wear on unit from turning on and off. As a mechanical engineer, I disagree with this assessment for a home...perhaps for a business. They also do not have a web-based stat yet. It is in the works.

 

Holly

 

From: seattle-home-e...@googlegroups.com <seattle-home-e...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Greg Stinson
Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2022 4:54 PM
To: Western Washington Home Electrification <seattle-home-e...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Help deciding on a heat pump system

 

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[Rob Harrison cPHc]

I’ve read (on a six-part GreenBuildingAdvisor.com series on replacing a ducted furnace with a heat pump system) that heat pump systems work better without a night setback—that the extra energy used in ramping back up to temperature offsets the energy saved by the setback. 

That said, one might prefer a cooler night temperature in bedrooms for sleeping. 

Interesting, adapting to this new technology. 

Rob

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Rob Harrison 

HARRISON architects

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http://harrisonarchitects.com

On Apr 18, 2022, at 11:27 AM, holly...@comcast.net wrote:



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[hollytownes]

Yes should be considered 

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Date: 4/15/22 7:15 AM (GMT-08:00)

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Subject: Re: Help deciding on a heat pump system

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[Jonlin, Duane]

Rob,

I don't think that the recommendation against using night setback makes sense, unless the controls are set to run the electric resistance coils when recovering from the night temperature. A good heat pump should have "optimum start" controls, that start gradually warming things up to meet your daytime temperature without running the backup heating coils.

DJ

	Duane Jonlin, FAIA Energy Code and Energy Conservation Advisor City of Seattle Department of Construction and Inspections P.O. Box 34019, Seattle, WA 98124-4019 P: 206.233.2781 |  duane.jonlin@seattle.gov
	As stewards and regulators of land and buildings, we preserve and enhance the equity, livability, safety and health in our communities.

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Subject: Night setback WAS Re: Help deciding on a heat pump system

 

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[Thor Peterson]

I'd caution against the Gradient at this point as a wholesale replacement for a standard ductless or ducted heat pump system for a home. Gradient doesn't even have specs yet on its unit's heating capacity. From the Gradient website FAQs: 

The Gradient's rating is 9,000 BTU/hr for cooling. We're currently finalizing laboratory tests on its heating capacity and will share that information soon.

and

The Gradient can replace nearly any window AC, in any climate. In addition, the unit will cover 30 percent to 100 percent of your heating loads, depending on climate.

I'd want to see independent laboratory tests on performance before I decided to pursue Gradient as the main heating source for a home. 

Mike, regarding your other questions: 

Finding contractors right now can be a challenge in general. I am concerned that neither of these companies did even basic calcs, but it seems to be the way the industry is heading. However, with inverter technology the norm, the penalty for oversizing equipment is primarily in installation cost, rather than efficiency. I'm not sure how much of a consolation that is though! 

Regarding Mitsubishi vs Daikin, in my opinion it really comes down to the specs of the equipment. Both are reputable manufacturers. Historically Mitsubishi had a leg up with its Hyper Heat technology which really helped eliminate the need for supplemental electric resistance heat, but the overall cold-climate performance of heat pumps have improved quite a bit. You still need to take a look at the cold-temp efficiency numbers of individual models regardless of the manufacturer though, and determine the need for supplemental electric resistance heat. At least that's my experience. 

Regardless of the cold-temp performance of the system you choose, you'll also need to figure out your supplemental heating needs based on the proposed heat pump's distribution scheme. Bathrooms in particular can end up pretty chilly, as can other small rooms that aren't served by the existing ductwork (or by the ductless units if you go that route). 

RE: ducted vs ductless, my factors for going with ducted are:

• Existing ductwork is in good condition, not leaky, or you're willing to invest in getting it into that state
• Existing ductwork either runs entirely or mostly through conditioned spaces (i.e., not through unconditioned crawl space, basement or attic) or is superlatively insulated (or again, you're willing and able to get it well-insulated)
• The house is chunked up into multiple small rooms that are currently well served by the existing ductwork
• Wall space is at a premium or the architecture of the home makes wall-mount ductless units aesthetically or functionally undesirable. 

Few existing ducted systems tick the boxes on the above. In short: if you've got leaky old ductwork running through unconditioned space, and a relatively open-plan home, go for ductless. 

I've done three combustion furnace-to-heat pumps conversions: two that went entirely ductless and one that reused the ductwork but still added a ductless head in a second-story addition space that wasn't served by the existing ductwork. In the ducted case, I was disappointed with the ability of the air handler system to adequately distribute conditioned air to the main floor. Even after I insulated the basement (where most of the ducts ran) it still meant the system had to run probably 30% harder to keep spaces comfortable. Oh, and the air handler systems rely heavily on proper change-out of the filters. Which few homeowners do. 

Would love to hear other folks' thoughts. This is just my experience; your mileage may vary! 

Thor

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[Thad Curtz]

Innonva, an Italian company, has a wall unit that’s somewhat similar to the Gradient as well as a lot of other models, but they have intake and output through the wall incorporated in the unit  - rather than having the compressor hanging outside over the window frame. They also have specs... (I’m attaching the ones for the wall unit.)

They are starting distribution in the US through a subsidiary, Epocha (https://ephoca.com/). However, you can’t get a single residential unit from them quite yet. They say:

We are still setting up distribution in US and we cannot ship one unit, we are working on putting stock order together and will be stocking these units in our Vancouver warehouse. Right now Ephoca is focusing on large Multi-Family projects. We are looking at probably August before we will have ability to sell individual units, due to Worldwide supply chain issues on Fans and heat Strips . Note the R-32 Units have a minimum order quantity of 100 Unit so above is R-410 refrigerant.

Best wishes,

Thad Curtz

[Jonlin, Duane]

I'm also very intrigued by the Innova/Epocha unit, but they haven't quite completed the whole gamut of required testing and listing processes. They keep promising that this will be complete any day now.

They also will offer a variation that provides heat recovery ventilation in the same unit.

Each of these units requires two 6-inch holes through the wall. I think they'd be great for apartments.

Pretty slick.

DJ

	Duane Jonlin, FAIA Energy Code and Energy Conservation Advisor City of Seattle Department of Construction and Inspections P.O. Box 34019, Seattle, WA 98124-4019 P: 206.233.2781 |  duane.jonlin@seattle.gov
	As stewards and regulators of land and buildings, we preserve and enhance the equity, livability, safety and health in our communities.

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From: seattle-home-e...@googlegroups.com <seattle-home-e...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Thad Curtz <oly...@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2022 11:36 AM
To: Thor Peterson <thorsp...@gmail.com>
Cc: hollytownes <holly...@comcast.net>; James W Little <little...@hey.com>; Western Washington Home Electrification <seattle-home-e...@googlegroups.com>; Mike O'Brien <mobse...@gmail.com>

Subject: Re: Help deciding on a heat pump system

 

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[Brian Gix]

I've got friends in the Home AC business down in Oregon, and when I was installing a ductless mini-split system 2 years ago, they said the quality differences between Daikin and Mitsubishi were pretty minimal, and they recommend them both.  Your chosen contractor probably has a deal with one of them or the other. My guy did say to stick with one of these 2 brands though...

I 2nd Thor's recommendation to consider your current ductwork situation before choosing between ducted or ductless. Many older homes will have very inefficient ductwork, so for most jobs, ductless systems are preferable. However, ducted systems might be less disruptive of a change, if you already have ducts serving all the important spaces.

--Brian

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[Rebecca Wilcox]

We just put a ductless system in our very similar house: built 1926, 950 SF main floor, attic insulated but not walls, unconditioned basement, cut up floor plan, leaky for sure. Everyone quoted us a 24k or larger system with 3 heads on the main floor. We opted for one 18k unit in the living room only, reasoning that bedrooms are ok to be colder and we can keep the doors open if we need to. We have had this setup for about a month and the result is about the same feel as when we had gas forced air ducted to most of the rooms. Keeping the ductless set to 68 keeps the rooms further from the head about as warm as they were when the forced air was being ducted into those rooms through the unconditioned basement - that is, a few degrees colder than the living room. 

Bought a couple envi plug in convection wall heaters as backup for one bedroom (used as an office) and the dining nook for when it gets really chilly - they do take forever to heat up a room but are pretty decent at evening things out if you keep them on on a cold day. One thing I would like to add at some point is a fan-powered wall heater in the bathroom - it never had a duct and was cold before and remains cold. The problem with these old, compartmentalized, leaky, uninsulated houses is that cold walls and floor can suck heat away faster than the ambient air can warm it up. 

All in all it's not a perfect setup but I still think it was the best way to do it for us and for this house, value-wise. We achieved about the same heating comfort as we had before but now we also have cooling, a quieter system, and no gas! Comfort will improve later when/if we insulate the basement or floor, or replace the remaining single pane windows, or add that bathroom heater. Just didn't seem right for us to brute-force it by putting a head in every room. YMMV.

More specific thoughts: 

Agree with all Thor's comments on ducted vs ductless. 

Agree with whoever said the kitchen will not keep itself warm via fridge/stove unless you are baking pies all day (neither will bathroom via ambient air, as mentioned). 

I took the time to calc out our heat loads using Better Built NW's HVAC Sizing Tool (https://betterbuiltnw.com/hvac-sizing-tool). I too have been conditioned (ha) by Green Building Advisor to expect that "good" contractors will do the calcs. However, one pointed out to me that a) there are a lot of similar houses in Seattle, b) BTU sizes of the heat pump units are quantized and indoor/outdoor unit combinations are limited, so there's only so many ways to skin the cat, and c) he said the calcs (some will do them for an extra fee) basically always point to the same BTUs that Mitsubishi's rough sizing tables tell them to use. FWIW I buy the argument. My calcs did turn out pretty much the same, at least within the margins of the possible unit BTU sizes. 

[Tom Balderston]

These are exciting... a like what we have been waiting for for multifamly.    I'm concerned the price may be pretty high.    The web site is great,  but the ducted heat pump/ HRV unit doesn't seem to be out there yet,   just a few images in the animation?

Tom 

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[Tom Balderston]

Mike,   

I'm always struggling with HVAC contractors that don't think they have time to do a room- by- room load calculation for the house.  how can they size a system without looking at the loads?    Maybe they think  the variable speed equipment isnt so sensitive to being over sized...which is true,   but that doesn't change the fact that there is a right way to do it  and this is not it.     Calculate the loads,   size the system,  design the ducts properly,  check the static pressures,  air flow, and test and balance air flow at each register,  so you have the air delivered  to match the loads for that space.   Heating contractors should be held to that standard. 

Tom Balderston

On Mon, Apr 25, 2022 at 9:22 AM Jonlin, Duane <Duane....@seattle.gov> wrote:

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[Thad Curtz]

On Apr 26, 2022, at 11:41 PM, Tom Balderston <ecod...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> These are exciting... a like what we have been waiting for for multifamly. I'm concerned the price may be pretty high.

Here’s what they quoted me for a wall unit - as the message from them I passed on said, they expect to be stocking them in Vancouver later this year, so I assume the shipping costs from Italy wouldn’t apply at that point, but I’m not sure...

1 Each: AWP10N4H2 AIO Wall Mounted Standard; Net Each: $ 3,295.00 + Shipping Costs From Italy
1 Each: AWE10N4H2 AIO Wall Mounted Standard With 900 Watt Strip Heat; Net Each: $ 3,570.00 + Shipping Costs From Italy
1 Each: AWK10N4H2 AIO Wall Mounted Standard With 1,800 Watt Strip Heat; Net Each: $ 3,675.00 + Shipping Costs From Italy

According to the product codes these are 240V, hardwired, R410a, without ERV, Design capacity of 10,500 Btu/h.

They do have specs for the ducted units; you can download the full brochure on the top left of this page if you’re interested…

https://ephoca.com/documentation/

Best wishes,
Thad

[Chris Hellstern]

If you’re looking for calcs, I just had Evergreen Heating and Air out for a heat pump conversion using my existing gas-fired forced air furnace ductwork.  They did a full heat loss calculation for the house and provided me the documentation.  Prices just went up and they quoted $21-24k for the system.

 

Chris Hellstern, AIA, LFA, LEED AP BD+C, CDT
Living Building Challenge Services Director
The Miller Hull Partnership, LLP

 

From: seattle-home-e...@googlegroups.com <seattle-home-e...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Tom Balderston
Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2022 11:47 PM
To: Jonlin, Duane <Duane....@seattle.gov>

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[Tom Balderston]

Thanks, 

Maybe price is comparable if you count the long refrigerant piping and extra electrical work for split systems in multifamily.

[Jonlin, Duane]

...and along with the equipment cost, there's the cost of cutting two 6-inch holes through the wall, plus a 1-inch hole for the condensation pipe, and then finishing the trim-out at the exterior terminations. This cost could vary a lot depending on the type of exterior finish material. Plus the extension of a 208V wire out from the panel to the unit - will you surface-mount the wire in a raceway, or will you break up and then replace the interior finish in order to run the wire through the studs, or maybe you have a basement ceiling right below on which you could run the wire?

Doing major surgery to an old house is always an adventure!

DJ

	Duane Jonlin, FAIA Energy Code and Energy Conservation Advisor City of Seattle Department of Construction and Inspections P.O. Box 34019, Seattle, WA 98124-4019 P: 206.233.2781 |  duane.jonlin@seattle.gov
	As stewards and regulators of land and buildings, we preserve and enhance the equity, livability, safety and health in our communities.

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From: Thad Curtz <oly...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2022 8:55 AM
To: Tom Balderston <ecod...@gmail.com>
Cc: Jonlin, Duane <Duane....@seattle.gov>; Thor Peterson <thorsp...@gmail.com>; hollytownes <holly...@comcast.net>; James W Little <little...@hey.com>; Western Washington Home Electrification <seattle-home-e...@googlegroups.com>; Mike O'Brien <mobse...@gmail.com>

Subject: Re: Help deciding on a heat pump system

 

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Best wishes,
Thad