Grade 8 bolt properties
Joseph R. Grill
I am working on a small project. Kind of a backwards design for some small steel brackets that are in the process of being detailed. The drawings the steel detailer call for Grade 8 1/4x20 bolts. I have found some information on the internet. What I think should be called out should be ASTM A354 Grade BD (it appears that it is in the same category as SAE J429 Grade 8). It has a yield strength of 130 ksi and a tensile strength of 150 ksi. Am I correct?
In addition, the shop drawings that are in production, call for a ¼”-20 FH MSCR in another application on the project. I can see that it will be a ¼” flat head screw (the drawings show a countersunk part for the application and I believe the receiving part will be drilled and tapped. But what does the “MSCR” stand for? Sorry for the confusion here. And, what would the correct ASTM designation be? Same as above for the bolts as the table I found from American Fastener shows ASTM A#%$ Grade BD being for Bolts, Screws, and Studs.
Thanks for the help
Joe Grill
David Topete
David Topete, SE
Brad Connelly
"machine screw BLANK BLANK".
You are correct regarding the grade 8 - med. carbon alloy, quenched
and tempered. I would recommend keeping the SAE designation on the
drawings, as it is a fairly recognized standard, and easy to identify
when the builder goes to order them.
Brad
On Nov 23, 2009, at 10:22 AM, "Joseph R. Grill" <jrg...@cableone.net>
wrote:
> I am working on a small project. Kind of a backwards design for
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Jason Christensen
Thanks in advance
jason
David L. Fisher
Harold Sprague
Foundation Engineering Handbook, Winterkorn and Fang, Ch 17
Regards, Harold Sprague
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Jason,
If you do not have access to PC Mats then any decent FEM program will do. The only trick is that you will need to work with your geotech to develop the one way soil springs that you will evenly space for the reactions then the loading would be applied as normal.
Thomas Hunt, S.E.
Fluor
| Jason Christensen <ja...@wcaeng.com>
11/23/2009 11:18 AM Please respond to seaint |
|
Thanks in advance
jason
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Christopher Wright
On Nov 23, 2009, at 12:22 PM, Joseph R. Grill wrote:
> I am working on a small project. Kind of a backwards design for
> some small steel brackets that are in the process of being
> detailed. The drawings the steel detailer call for Grade 8
> 1/4x20 bolts. I have found some information on the internet. What
> I think should be called out should be ASTM A354 Grade BD (it
> appears that it is in the same category as SAE J429 Grade 8). It
> has a yield strength of 130 ksi and a tensile strength of 150 ksi.
> Am I correct?
You're the only one who knows what should be called out for the
project--what makes you believe the detailer called out the wrong
bolts? ASTM A-354 gr BD is quenched and tempered alloy steel and
grade 8 bolts are quenched and tempered medium carbon steel. That
makes them different, even though the head markings are the same. The
mechanical properties are the same for the grades you specified. If I
were you I wouldn't consider them interchangeable until you find out
why one was called out but not the other. Could be your detailer was
just using he favorite throw-away designation, or perhaps there's a
reason. Hard to tell from this distance.
>
>
> In addition, the shop drawings that are in production, call for a
> ¼”-20 FH MSCR in another application on the project. I can see
> that it will be a ¼” flat head screw (the drawings show a
> countersunk part for the application and I believe the receiving
> part will be drilled and tapped. But what does the “MSCR” stand
> for? Sorry for the confusion here. And, what would the correct
> ASTM designation be? Same as above for the bolts as the table I
> found from American Fastener shows ASTM A#%$ Grade BD being for
> Bolts, Screws, and Studs.
>
>
I did a Google search for 'MSCR' and came up with one site that says
it's a rarely used abbreviation for machine screw. It doesn't appear
in either _Machinery's Handbook_ or my old drafting text. My drafting
book references 'SCR' as a standard but dated abbreviation for
'screw,' and FH is an abbreviation for 'flat head.' So I'd guess that
your detailer probably isn't a lot younger than I am and meant 'flat
head machine screw' by FH MSCR. (Ref ASA Z32.13--1946)
Christopher Wright P.E. |"They couldn't hit an elephant at
chr...@skypoint.com | this distance" (last words of Gen.
.......................................| John Sedgwick, Spotsylvania
1864)
http://www.skypoint.com/members/chrisw/
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David Topete
I have a 5 story structure that is going to be support by a mat foundation.
--
David Topete, SE
Harold Sprague
Contact the IFI regarding the MSCR.
http://www.industrial-fasteners.org/contact_us.html
You need to page through the NASA RS 1228
http://gltrs.grc.nasa.gov/reports/1990/RP-1228.pdf
It has a good section in the back regarding ASTM and SAE.
Regards, Harold Sprague
From: jrg...@cableone.net
To: sea...@seaint.org
Subject: Grade 8 bolt properties
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 11:22:04 -0700
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Jason Christensen
Close! It is a self serve storage facility.
Jason
Joseph R. Grill
Thank you very much.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Connelly [mailto:connel...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 12:01 PM
To: <sea...@seaint.org>
Joseph R. Grill
Harold,
Thank you for the links.
Joe
Liaquat Ally Akhand
Please, check Bolt grade is supposed to be Grasde 8.8, but not Grade 8.
Regards,
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Conrad Harrison
typically imperial sized bolts (UNC,UNF), and from memory grade 8 have
slightly higher material strength.
Also whilst less than universally accepted, to some a screw is fully
threaded and has no plain shank, whilst a bolt has a plain shank. So if
using screws the thread has to be included in the shear plane.
Regards
Conrad Harrison
B.Tech (mfg & mech), MIIE, gradTIEAust
mailto:sch.te...@bigpond.com
Adelaide
South Australia
Gary L. Hodgson and Assoc.
I don't know what the intended use of your bolts, but remember that the
AISC specification only refers to 3 kinds of bolts for structural
purposes and machine bolts of grade 8 or 8.8 spec don't comply. Of
course, if the bolts are under 1/2" you may have to use machine bolts.
I have one customer who keeps wanting to use the nice shiny SAE grade 8
bolts because they look better than those black A325 or A490 bolts.
Gary
>
>
>
> On Nov 23, 2009, at 10:22 AM, "Joseph R. Grill" <jrg...@cableone.net>
> wrote:
>
>> I am working on a small project. Kind of a backwards design for some
>> small steel brackets that are in the process of being detailed. The
>> drawings the steel detailer call for Grade 8 1/4x20 bolts. I have
>> found some information on the internet. What I think should be
>> called out should be ASTM A354 Grade BD (it appears that it is in the
>> same category as SAE J429 Grade 8). It has a yield strength of 130
>> ksi and a tensile strength of 150 ksi. Am I correct?
>>
>>
>>
>> In addition, the shop drawings that are in production, call for a
>> ¼”-20 FH MSCR in another application on the project. I can see that
>> it will be a ¼” flat head screw (the drawings show a countersunk part
>> for the application and I believe the receiving part will be drilled
>> and tapped. But what does the “MSCR” stand for? Sorry for the
>> confusion here. And, what would the correct ASTM designation be?
>> Same as above for the bolts as the table I found from American
>> Fastener shows ASTM A#%$ Grade BD being for Bolts, Screws, and Studs.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for the help
>>
>>
>>
>> Joe Grill
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> ******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
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Joseph R. Grill
That is a good point. The bolts are being shown to be 1/4" dia. The loads are light (for hanging some art work), less that 100 lbs per bolt in single shear using 3/16" or 1/4" plate. I wasn't too concerned. On the other hand is there a design reference that should be used in this case (and I probably don't have a copy anyway) in lieu of the AISC? Or possibly some shear design tables out of a reference that could be used.?
Joe
-----Original Message-----
From: Gary L. Hodgson and Assoc. [mailto:des...@hodgsoneng.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 5:58 AM
To: sea...@seaint.org
Subject: Re: Grade 8 bolt properties
Christopher Wright
On Nov 24, 2009, at 6:58 AM, Gary L. Hodgson and Assoc. wrote:
> I have one customer who keeps wanting to use the nice shiny SAE
> grade 8 bolts because they look better than those black A325 or
> A490 bolts.
To make things worse, the Counterfeit Bolt Affair of the 1990's
hasn't gone away. If anything it's gotten worse. <http://
www.nv.doe.gov/library/publications/sitelines/sl100.pdf> The original
problem was with so-called grade 8 bolts that were actually grade 8.2
(or something like it) that were understrength or wouldn't hold a pre-
load. So when you go through all your spec options keep in mind that
you could be getting ferro-manurium fasteners if you don't shop with
care.
Christopher Wright P.E. |"They couldn't hit an elephant at
chr...@skypoint.com | this distance" (last words of Gen.
.......................................| John Sedgwick, Spotsylvania
1864)
http://www.skypoint.com/members/chrisw/
Gerard Madden, SE
Daniel Coloski
Enviado desde mi BlackBerry de movistar Profesional (http://www.movistarempresas.com.ar)
Paul Ransom
I attended CSCE/Mike Gilmor's (formerly CISC) seminar on changes to the S16
for 2009. Out of the entire room of 80 professionals, there seemed to be
little understanding of bolt technology. Scary ... but it reflects the
quality of project specifications and designs that I see, daily. On slow
days, I like to toy with professionals who don't know what they are
designing.
That said, my guess is that a 1/4" dia. Gr 8 bolt to hang 100# is way
overkill, probably easily available and not worth the discussion for the
substitution. There may be some savings for a lower grade if large
quantities are required.
Regards
Paul
--
Paul Ransom, P.Eng.
ph 905 639-9628
fax 905 639-3866
ad...@hwcn.org
> From: "Gary L. Hodgson and Assoc." <des...@hodgsoneng.ca>
> To: sea...@seaint.org
> Subject: Re: Grade 8 bolt properties
>
> Joe,
> I don't know what the intended use of your bolts, but remember that the
> AISC specification only refers to 3 kinds of bolts for structural
> purposes and machine bolts of grade 8 or 8.8 spec don't comply. Of
> course, if the bolts are under 1/2" you may have to use machine bolts.
> I have one customer who keeps wanting to use the nice shiny SAE grade 8
> bolts because they look better than those black A325 or A490 bolts.
> Gary
Gary L. Hodgson and Assoc.
engineering.
Gary
Christopher Wright wrote:
>
> On Nov 24, 2009, at 6:58 AM, Gary L. Hodgson and Assoc. wrote:
>
>> I have one customer who keeps wanting to use the nice shiny SAE grade
>> 8 bolts because they look better than those black A325 or A490 bolts.
> To make things worse, the Counterfeit Bolt Affair of the 1990's hasn't
> gone away. If anything it's gotten worse.
> <http://www.nv.doe.gov/library/publications/sitelines/sl100.pdf> The
> original problem was with so-called grade 8 bolts that were actually
> grade 8.2 (or something like it) that were understrength or wouldn't
> hold a pre-load. So when you go through all your spec options keep in
> mind that you could be getting ferro-manurium fasteners if you don't
> shop with care.
>
> Christopher Wright P.E. |"They couldn't hit an elephant at
> chr...@skypoint.com | this distance" (last words of Gen.
> .......................................| John Sedgwick, Spotsylvania
> 1864)
> http://www.skypoint.com/members/chrisw/
>
>
>
>
> ******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
> * Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
> ** This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers*
> Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To* subscribe
> (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to:
> *
> * http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp
> *
> * Questions to seai...@seaint.org. Remember, any email you* send
> to the list is public domain and may be re-posted* without your
> permission. Make sure you visit our web* site at:
> http://www.seaint.org******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ******
Harold Sprague
Counterfeit Fasteners
In the past two years a great deal of concern and publicity
about counterfeit fasteners has surfaced. The counterfeit case
with the most documentation is the deliberate marking of
grade 8.2 boron bolts as grade 8 bolts.
Grade 8.2 bolts are a low-carbon (0.22 percent C) boron
alloy steel that can be heat treated to the same roomtemperature
hardness as grade 8 medium-carbon (0.37 percent
C) steel. However, the room- and elevated-temperature
strengths of the grade 8.2 bolts drop drastically if they are
exposed to temperatures above 500 OF. Grade 8 bolts can be
used to 800 OF with little loss of room-temperature strength.
Other fasteners marked as MS and NAS but not up to the
respective MS or NAS specification have shown up; however,
documentation is not readily available. Since these fasteners
are imported and have no manufacturer's identification mark
on them, it is not possible to trace them back to the guilty
manufacturer. U. S . Customs inspections have not been
effective in intercepting counterfeit fasteners.
Another problem with fasteners has been the substitution
of zinc coating for cadmium coating. If a dye is used with the
zinc, the only way to detect the difference in coatings is by
chemical testing.
Federal legislation to establish control of fastener materials
from the material producer to the consumer is being
formulated.Regards, Harold Sprague
> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 07:39:34 -0500
> From: des...@hodgsoneng.ca
Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more.
ghan...@umn.edu
Anyone has experience with limited PE Permit in NYS (3 years).
* Does the stamping engineer has to apply for individual projects he has to
sign or he can use the same permit for any number of projects during the
course of "A" year for the given 3 year permit tenure. (Note that his
company provides manufacturing services for only a part of numerous
projects carried out by the firm during an year)
* When project comes in really fast and you are under pressure to approve
the project, what might be the correct course of action for signing the
plans? Note that NYS Board takes approx. 3 weeks to issue the permit for
individual projects. Anyone with experience / input dealing with the
aforemetioned situation is appreciated.