when the levees break....

[ake...@cfl.rr.com]

If we only listened to Led Zeppelin about 40 years ago, we would have known it was inevitable.

So the Army Corps should subrogate against France. It is the French who chose to settle New Orleans in the first place.

Is this one of those, pardon me for using it, "slippery slopes"? Will there not be a legal precendent now where the Corps may be held responsible for any of their other failed attempts at controlling nature? How about the entire Mississippi River and all of its tributaries? How about the senseless pumping of sand to "restore beaches" that often last only until the next tropical storm or northeaster, and in turn screw up nature's cycle and can destroy productive fish habitat not mention ruin great surfing waves (and in my opinion, we taxpayers are paying to insure beachfront property)? Since we all pay for the Army Corps, this scares me a bit...

I am not arguing against responsibility, but I have to think it was less engineer's making miscalculations and more about backhanded politics.

Andrew Kester, PE
Florida

******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
* Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
*
* This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
* Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To
* subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to:
*
* http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp
*
* Questions to seai...@seaint.org. Remember, any email you
* send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted
* without your permission. Make sure you visit our web
* site at: http://www.seaint.org
******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********

[Stuart, Matthew]

I thought you couldn't sue the US government for damages in the first
place.

D. Matthew Stuart, P.E., S.E., F.ASCE, SECB
Senior Project Manager
Structural Department
Associate
Engineers and Consultants - CMX
200 Route 9
Manalapan, NJ 07726
732-577-9000 (Ext. 308)
908-309-8657 (Cell)
732-298-9441 (Fax)
mst...@CMXEngineering.com

[Bill Polhemus]

But then we'd have no place to go.

William L. Polhemus, Jr. P.E.
Via iPhone 3G

On Nov 20, 2009, at 12:05 PM, <ake...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:

> If we only listened to Led Zeppelin about 40 years ago, we would
> have known it was inevitable.

******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***

[Stuart, Matthew]

 

♫ ♪ Mean old levee taught me to weep and moan ♫ ♪

[Glenn Otto]

I think I heard that either N.O. is still sinking or the mighty River sediment is building higher.  Does anyone know? 

 

Are they rebuilding in the 9^th Ward?  As we used to say in Florida “ I’ve got some low land for a low price!”

 

Glenn C. Otto, P.E.

A Structural Engineer, P.C.

Virginia Beach, VA 23454

www.astructuralengineeronline.com

 

"Contemplate the mangled bodies of your countrymen, and then say 'what should be the reward of such sacrifices?' ... If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!"

--Samuel Adams

 

 

[Drew Morris]

it's a combination of factors.  The area around new Orleans and the gulf coast around the Mississippi delta is generally subsiding due to sediment compaction.  The weight of sediments "squeezes" out the water and affects the grain orientation in soft sediments so the porosity decreases and the general section decreases in thickness. Also, there is a component due to the sediments loading the upper lithosphere and depressing the crust (isostasy).

The sediments are probably not building upward.  The affects of levees and the dredging of the Mississippi for shipping has allowed a lot of the sediment in the river to bypass the delta and get deposited further outbound in deeper water.  This sediment starvation has allowed the barrier islands to diminish if not disappear.

Here's a starter:

http://www.lacoast.gov/news/press/2003-09-11b.htm

[Harold Sprague]

The US Federal Government has sovereign immunity and may not be sued unless it is waived by consent. The Federal Tort Claims act grants limited waiver of immunity.  There are many other aspects that make attorneys rich by debating them.   
 
Regardless, sovereign immunity may be invoked at any time and could effectively shut a suit down in appeals at any point.  One judge's ruling is not the end of it. 
 
MRGO was designed in the 1950's and constructed in the 1960's.  Following construction, funding was limited by Congress, Port of New Orleans, Inland Waterway Trust Fund and others for maintenance and for construction.  In 1997 there was a USACE evaluation report by the Corps.  http://www.mvn.usace.army.mil/prj/ihnc/EvaluationReport/ihnc_eval.htm
 
They only needed a half billion dollars for the work.  No one authorized the effort and it was not done.  If the proposed re-work had happened we might not be having this debate. 
 
How much can be built of a half billion dollar project with zero funding?
 
I was part of an emergency response team that went in immediately after Katrina.  I saw real corruption up close and personal.  I saw a lot of ineptitude.  I also saw a lot of Federal employees busting their hump to do some good at great personal risk with little gratitude.  I do a lot of gratis work for the Federal government and military. 
 
As an American have a vested interest in the success of the Federal government.  My son is even serving in the US Navy.    If we expect any good to come from this law suit, we are delusional.  The only thing that will happen is that lawyers will get wealthy.  Congress will never accept responsibility.  After all, they "inherited" this problem from the other Congress.  It is time we stopped using the Corps as a scape goat. 
 
When the next big earthquake comes, we will mobilize to rescue and to aid in recovery.  All Americans will be called on to help the stricken.  I am sure that someone will sue the Federal Government for all of the buildings that did not get rehabbed.  ...here we go again. 
 
I need a beer. 

Regards, Harold Sprague 


 
> Subject: RE: when the levees break....
> Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 13:10:57 -0500
> From: mSt...@cmxengineering.com
> To: sea...@seaint.org

---

Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now.

[Barry Welliver]

As always Harold, thank you for your perspective on this issue.

Make mine a martini....

Barry H. Welliver
bhweng...@digis.net

---

From: Harold Sprague <sprag...@hotmail.com>
Organization: http://www.seaint.org
Reply-To: <sea...@seaint.org>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 23:38:50 +0000
To: <sea...@seaint.org>

Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now. <http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/>

[Chuck Utzman]

Lifted from the 1929 Kansas Joe McCoy (Memphis Minnie backing this
time)tune from 1929. Much better in the original BTW.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_the_Levee_Breaks

[Stuart, Matthew]

Beer you say, might I suggest Kentucky Bourbon Barrel Beer, which as far as I know you can only get it in Lexington. Snow Ghost in Whitefish, MT isn't half bad either.

________________________________

Regards, Harold Sprague

________________________________

Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now. <http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/%20http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/>

[Harold Sprague]

OK.  Now it is Saturday, and time to heed your suggestion. 

Regards, Harold Sprague


 

---

Subject: RE: when the levees break....

Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 21:59:39 -0500

---

Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more.