Reply to your mail Jean

[Brian Jones]

Hi Jean,

Thank you for your email Jean. I didn't realise that Reg Freeman had stopped at 137 or just before. I was given to believe that he made 138 Seadogs and J.G. Meakes made two. There was a Seadog around this number that sunk off Vancouver. Apparently it broke it's moorings in a storm and fetched up on the rocks and ripped off a bilge keel and sunk. I don't think it was recovered.  It must have been some storm as those keels are attached by around 55 3/8" countersunk bolts. I believe Rouselle had 58 bolts on on bilge keel and 53 on the other. They were spaced at every 4 inches but that only lasted for a few feet and then they wandered off course. Definitely man made and not machine cut.

The biggest problem in removing the bilge keels is that you have to remove the fuel tanks and they won't come out with the engine in situ so that has to come out as well. As I've said before the b. keels are laminated to a thickness of between 3/4" or 19mm and 1" or 25mm. The width of the keel including both flanges at the top is around one foot wide and when full contain 26 gallons of water, or whisky one side and gin the other. The hull at the point where the keel flange is set into the hull is around one and a half inches thick, so the countersunk bolts need to be two and three quarter inches long, or 70mm. By todays standards everything on a Seadog was totally over engineered and unfortunately that was why Reg. Freeman yachts folded. At that time people were beginning to realise just how strong fibreglass was and other production companies were consequently making hulls so much thinner and therefore cheaper.  Latterly of course as resin is a by product of oil the cost has risen considerably and hulls are being made even thinner. I saw some years ago at the boat show a Contessa 32 that had been cut in half lengthways.  The hull mid ships was about 8mm thick and at the transom end it was 5mm thick. Now these boats are sailing all over the world with no problems with a thinner laminate. So when you look at a Seadog construction, they are just a trifle over engineered. So when you are thinking that your engine is consuming too much fuel,. you know the reason why.

My new Vertue is number 3/100 of the best sailing boats today according to the recent Yachting press  However it is considered to be a very strongly built little boat at 25ft 8ins.,and has many circumnavigations to it's record. However the hull thickness is less than your Seadog and is only 10-12mm thick. So I wouldn't think you have any problem with your Seadog being only 15mm. I once found a piece of 5mm thick fibreglass about four feet long and I couldn't break it. I weigh about 15 stone and by placing  brick under each end I jumped up and down on it and nothing happened. It didn't even crack. So I don't think we will see old broken Seadogs laying around for at least the next 100 years. They may not have the modern shape but they do look like a yacht should look in my opinion and will outlast new boats very easily. Long may they all live.

My old Seadog spent all her life moored in the Bristol Channel and things did get a trifle rough there now and then and apart from the tides  being second highest in the world I think the most dangerous thing was the ground sea. A lot of people don't realise what that is. Well at it's worst you will be high and dry one minute and the next minute will bring a very fast wave about four feet high straight up the harbour and everything floats and mooring chains sometimes do break under the strain. Anyone who was walking up the harbour are now swimming for their life. The sea will stay in for a minute or so and then run right out again. That isn't often like that but when there is any west or northwest in the wind you will get ground sea with every incoming wave. That is what fishermen experience when they suddenly get swept off the rocks. What this is building up to is that boats have to be very strongly put together to sail in the Bristol Channel. I have never seen a Seadog damaged by the sea in that area but I have seen many fin keelers on legs smashed to pieces. On modern boats cleats and fairleads are often ripped straight out of the deck but that doesn't happen with your Seadog. They are without doubt the finest vessel for sailing in that area and of course anywhere else. They will look after you come what may.

If I may, I'll  add a humorous incident that occurred one day  to illustrate this point . We were under a deep reefed rig tacking down the Bristol Channel having sailed from Swansea in South Wales and making for our home port, Watermouth in Devon. The wind was a SW 7 gusting 8 at the time and the tide was going out so the seas were large being wind against tide.  Ilfracombe Coastguard called up the Balmoral which is a passenger carrying ship of some 800 - 1000 tons, and said, " Captain we have just had a three 999 call from a person who thinks you may be in some distress as you are steaming around in circles. Have you some problem?" The Skipper replied, " Thank you but we are OK however the Bursar is having some difficulty in collecting all the deck chairs owing go the sea conditions, so by steaming around in circles all the chairs are flung up against the outer railing and he finds that he can tie them in that position." We were having a great sail and going like a train and we didn't think it was that bad. but then we didn't have any deck chairs on board. He later called Swansea Coast guards to say that they had to reduce speed because of the conditions and would be two hours late arriving in Swansea. 

Reg made a very good job of designing the Dog but he made in my opinion for what it's worth two serious errors. Number one was that the main bulkhead is not directly under the mainmast and the other is the fact that the `J' angle which is distance between the mainmast and the forestay and the top of the rig is not long enough between mast and stem head. Consequently when sailing before the wind your Jib or Genoa is not doing any work as it's blanked by the mainsail. This is why I fitted a bowsprit to Rouselle. By pushing the sail out four feet infront of the stem your Jib or Genoa will will get sufficient air to operate when sailing down wind and consequently you have increased your working sail area and your speed. There is no doubt that with a bowsprit the boat is far better balanced on all points of sailing. If this had been designed at the outset it could have been made to retract thus saving extra marina fees. She is now no longer a motor sailer but is a heavy displacement sailing yacht.

Rouselle was No 100 and she had the old type of rudder which was not large enough to control the boats when under sail. So I fashion a piece of oak four inches deeper at the aft end tapering upto nothing at the fore end. This was fibre glassed to the base of the rudder and it immediatly solved the problem.

Boats made after No 100 were offered the tall rig which was added to the mainmast and the mizzen and of course gave a greater sail area. All deep keeled Seadogs after 100 were made with a deeper main keel but without bilge keels and the water tank was incapsulated within the the main keel on top of the ballast.  I believe this tank held 100 gallons of water and the keel was deeper by about nine inches.

The bone of contention is do deep Seadogs sail faster than bilge keelers.  I have never sailed a deep keeled Seadog and I don't suppose I ever will now but if I was buying one again, depending on where it would be sailed and kept, I think a deep keeled version plus a bowsprit, would be a very interesting proposition. Of course her speed would be about the same but she would not have the lift from the bilge keels, as she wouldn't have them and so she would heel more than the bilge keel version but would she sail any closer to the wind? Luckily it's a argument that can never be solved which is perhaps just as well! 

I think I have mentioned this before but if you have rope cutter on your prop shaft which is just a round sharpened disc, I advise you to take it off. Stretch some pieces of rope between two objects and try and cut it with your rope cutter, and you will find that it doesn't cut. So send it to an engineer and have teeth cut around the edge with a 9mm cutter and then it will cut. Think of it another way. Try cutting some rope with an ordinary blade and it will not cut instantly. Try it again with a serrated edge of a breadknife and you will see that it will.  Rope cutters have to cut the rope, fishing net or Fertiliser bag the instant the thing is on the cutter. If the prop is allowed to revolve once, you've had it. Three or more turns around your prop and the thing will jam stopping your engine. Think of the strain that puts on the shaft, outer bearing, flexible coupling, gearbox and crankshaft. If you were traveling very fast you would be lucky to not have any other damage such as bent prop shaft or smashed outer bearing.

Happy sailing and take care.

With kind regards

Brian

[Sandor Talas]

Hi Brian,

Just a quick note to add to your very informative email. Dog Rose is hull #132, a deep keel “performance version” Seadog, hence there had to be at least as many built. 

Regarding downwind solutions I found a parasailor to be a better choice than white sails. Easily managed single handed and works comfortably even at 90 deg AWA in light winds when rigged as an asymmetric. It may not have the classic look of a bowsprit, but works really well. 

Kind regards,

Sandor

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[jyp...@gmail.com]

Hi Brian,

Thank you for this long and interesting mail.

About the difference between JG Meakes and Freeman, I am not sure they are existing. It would have been very hazardous to modify a scantling just like that.

I enclose the Sales brochure from JG Meakes, and as you can see the weight is exactly the same, therefore, the wall thckness of the shell side is the same.

I only could measure the thickness at the location of the toilet Blakes valves.

A long time ago, 1978, my father's Dog "towed" her mooring block during a storm and she finished in the rocks on the coast.

The only damages were some rocks broken, the edges of the bilde keels were damaged, but they did not loose their watertightness, nor induced any damage in way of the fixations.

The hull was just scratched. The other boats having experienced the same accident sunk.

The repair yard had never seen such a heavy construction.

Even the shape of the hull lines of the Dog make it strong, there are no "flat" surfaces (the curve radius is low)

My rope cutter is made of two parts (one fixed one rotating) and acts as scissors.

Concerning bilge keels vs fin keel, my choice woild be again bilge keels. May be it is slower,, but it is really amazing the way that bilge keels reduce the roll.

For sure a bowsprit enhance the perfs, but my limit is financial ...because of the price of the marina. (even if it is cheaper than in England, roughly 1800€ per year, and if your boat stays on the dry, no extra cost, you just pay the lifting)

I started the process of osmosis tretament (gel coat planed) but it was delayed because of Covid, and then I could not sail this summer, and if the situation  does not improve, may be she will stay on the hard next summer too.

It is for me the opportunity to make some TLC's.

Right now, I have not the right to go onboard to make some works, because of Covid restrictions (even if I would be alone onboard...but I don't want to get a 135€ fine...)

If some other read that and somebody had the opportunity to measure the hul thickness, it would be instructive.

I hope my "frenglish" is understandable.

Kind regards to all

Jean_Yves