Seadogs

[Brian Jones]

Hi John,

Nice to hear from you. No nothing. I don't really understand why firms won't make this frame because it's straight forward. Once you have bent the frame to the shape of the top of the screen, all you have to do is twist it and it will fit the mould on the boat. Some of them make such a song and dance out of it I think that they are not interested because the production run if everyone had one is only 140.

This forum is so good because ideas and suggestions are so easily sorted out. In my day we had a magazine but only every two years I believe. So everybody did their own thing and there wasn't any help from Freeman Yachts as they had folded. During my 37 years of ownership of Rouselle I had removed every single item except the main bulkheads and berth fronts that were fibre glassed in and ballast. I fitted a new Engine Beta Marine 38hp, new fuel tanks, removed both bilge keels and fitted new gaskets because salt water had penetrated and fouled the fresh drinking water, I made and fitted a new keel pad as the old one had worn away exposing the slate block due to a drying mooring. I fitted all new Simpson- Lawrence bronze seacocks when purchased the year after I bought her, New Lavac Toilet. I threw away the Pinta Pilot and fitted a Autohelm which was first class and never failed in all the time I had her. She sailed between 40 and 50,000 miles in my time. I redesigned the rig after fitting the bowsprit and had all new sails made by Andrew Hooper of Battisborough Cross, Plymouth. I removed both masts, stripped them and refitted with new gaskets and monel rivets.  I renewed the mizzen mast as the original was so corroded under the cross tree bracket that I didn't think it would last very long with the new radar randome which was fitted around that point. Both masts were stripped of the old wiring and new was fitted with baggy wrinkles every four feet to stop them rattling inside. Practically all Seadogs when new had a cold moulded dinghy in chocks on the aft cabin roof. The only boat still to have one in 1982 was Canute. I had a 7ft3inch one made for Rouselle which was a sailing dinghy and that sailed like a witch.

Things were much easier for me then as I had retired and lived only half a mile away from the boat so I was back and forth like a yo-yo.

When I bought her she was in Lloyds 100A1 and the expiry date was June 3rd every year which meant that she had to be ashore and stripped for her annual survey. I was afloat and often away at this time so I withdrew her from her class on the understanding that to put her back in class would mean another Lloyds Survey on 3rd June.

Over the years I had tuned Rouselle and she was a fast boat and she was so finely tuned that when tacking, if you went forward she would go out of balance but come back in again as soon as you came back into the cockpit. That was easily corrected by slackening the mizzen sheet by as little as two inches. I only entered in one club race and that was in a force 5/6 SW wind of some 24 miles. She not only won it but she did it in record time that has not been broken.

Unfortunately after 37 years I sold her because she was too far away from where I now live which is in the New Forest. I have now got a Vertue as you know which is the latest one built and we sail in The Solent. I really miss the Bristol Channel as it was a marvellous jumping off point for Ireland, the north and the Southwest. We were only a few hours sail away from Tenby, Lundy, Clovelly or Milford Haven and there was a much greater challenge in those waters than there ever is in the Solent. Somehow I always had the feeling that Rouselle loved rough weather. She would fly off the top of a wave with completely dry decks and when sailing across the wind and sea between 6.5 and 8 knots through the water she was in her element. In Reg Freemans words when I met him in 1982 he said if you want a fast Seadog get a bilge keel version as they are far faster because of their aerofoil designed bilge keels.  The lift that they generate decreases the amount of heel that the boat has in any given wind speed and therefore they sail faster because the drag of the hull on each side is equal. That I have proved many times over the years.

Take Care John and Have a wonderful Christmas

Brian

[Brian Jones]

Hello John,

I 'm sorry I don't know much about them except that they were a 7ft long stem dinghy, cold moulded. The only yards local to Freeman Yachts at that time that I was aware of and made cold moulded mahogany dinghies were Souter of Cowes and Fairey marine. Like you I was going to make one myself but upon pricing up the mahogany veneers it would work out too expensive. So I had a ship Wright friend who had returned home to North Devon from the Caribbean for three months, make a dinghy for Rouselle. That dinghy was one of Iain Outreds Little Auk designs but we cut it down to 7ft 3ins to fit between the mizzen mast and the pushpit rail. She was a sailing dinghy made of clinker mahogany and oak and weighed about 90-100lbs.  She was lowered and hoisted aboard using a tackle from the end of the mizzen boom and the tail was taken back to the mizzen mast and cleated off. I had to beef up the inner forestays of that mast to take the strain. I could launch and recover far quicker than inflating a dinghy and it had a lot of use, laying out kedge anchors and recovering my flying anchor.

Happy Christmas

Brian

 for me for his father in laws funeral

On Tuesday, December 20, 2022 at 01:08:51 AM GMT, John Kent <johnk...@yahoo.com> wrote:

I would love to know more about the cold moulded dinghy this is news to me and I love this stuff I wonder if I could find the mould ? Many were built at Wollston and still old yards that side of the itched 

John Yolanda 125 long keel 

Sent from my iPhone

On 17 Dec 2022, at 23:28, 'Brian Jones' via SeaDog <sea...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



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[Alexia]

Here she is …

Sent from my iPhone

On 20 Dec 2022, at 09:10, 'Brian Jones' via SeaDog <sea...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



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[John Lowe]

Hi Brian and SOA,

 

Great to hear you.

 

I’ve ended up putting a new aluminium strip over existing screen frame and spray- coated – think it will look good and introduce strength were the bolts had reacted with the ali and made large corrosion points.

 

Thought I was first one to remove keels and replace the gaskets and you beat me to it by quite a few years. Pleased I did it now they are back on – well, another 61 bolts to go and then the sealant etc.

 

Also replaced the seacocks like you as were leaking but went with a mix of TruDesign and Marelon. Still not sure whether I should have gone for bronze in the engine compartment – time to change as they are sitting loose waiting for another hull coat of Interprotect. Still got to tackle mast and think Martin changed tanks as they look new. I’ve noticed there is a kind of fibreglass aggregator of side-deck drains moulded into hull sitting below waterline with no seacocks – so probably need to resolve before engine goes back.

 

Once the keels are back on properly, planning to drop rudder as needs repair – why is it I can’t see a sacrificial anode on prop btw? and then need to rewire. If I can get Tarry back in the water in 2023 basically seaworthy then could tackle masts during winter lay-up.

 

Anyway, hope you had a good Christmas and see you at Feb rally.

 

Happy New Year everybody.

 

John

 

PS: Brian, your email seems to be bouncing – might just be a personal dislike of my email server.

[Brian Jones]

Hi John,

Good to hear from you and I hope you had a good Christmas.

You  know those pesky screens have been a nuisance ever since they started building Seadogs. I think that if I ever had another Seadog which at 84years seems extremely doubtful, but if I did I would convert the fibreglass moulding at the bottom of the screen into sections and fit a screen like the Halberg Rassy yachts have, because a, they can be replaced in flat sections and b, they would look a lot better. Of course you would have to do it when the hood needed replacing other wise it would be rather expensive.

I am pleased to hear that someone else has removed the bilge keels as people thought I was mad to remove ours and said that they would have left them and used bottled water instead.  But now John you will be getting cold fresh water.  You really need to remove them just to appreciate how well the Seadog is built. She is not machine sprayed but is hand laid up and is very strongly built below the water line. Interestingly my keels had 55 bolts on one side and 58 on the other so that was definitely hand made and the 55 one was probably made up on a Friday!

Regarding the anode on the prop. it's not there because it may not need one. When I bought Rouselle she was all wired up with Lloyds bonding cable and some years later I noticed that one of the wires was disconnected which meant of course that none of them were connected so I removed all the cables and regularly checked each seacock but not the slightest problem occurred anywhere. Every seacock was so far from it's neighbour that no degrading occurred. The only metal which is different down below was the shaft but what I did find over the years was that the propeller has lost it's ring and sounds dead but it is still a propeller and nothing has broken off yet. So unless you are going to keep your Seadog for longer than 37n years John, you don't need to fit an anode. If you do fit one the cost of anodes over 37 years will be way ahead of the cost of another propeller which if you buy it on E Bay will only cost you a few pounds. I bought a lovely new propeller on E bay a few years back when I changed a two blade prop for a three blade propeller on my Gaff Cutter. It was new and cost £25. The owner had it as an ornament. A brand new propeller would cost ten times that amount.

The deck drain was a fitted moulding on Rouselle and exited the hull ABOVE the water line. I used to clear them out with an air line. If yours are below the water line it probably because you have too many gold ingots stored in your spare parts section!

Don't forget John that if your propellor is the rounded variety on the rear bottom side you can cut a section to fit which is 4 inches deep at the outer bottom tapering to nothing by the shaft end. That makes a huge difference when sailing.

It will be good to see your black hulled Seadog sailing again

Happy New Year to you.

Take care

Brian

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[John Lowe]

Hi Brian,

 

Ha ha, yes, I got a few funny comments when I removed the keels and, as you say, they are incredibly solid. The inside keel walls weren’t a pretty sight. I noticed hairline cracks in baffles where joined keel wall and the port front keel section was cracked on the inside. Tipped keel on its end, ground it out and filled with liquid epoxy and left to dry. Then repainted with an epoxy paint for water tanks (see attached). Martin remembers an argument with a pilot vessel (?) which he thinks may have been the cause. Like you, I have 60 keel bolts on one side and 61 on the other. They are at distances of between 3” and 5” and often buried in bulkheads, stringers etc. – such a joy getting to them.

 

You are making me wonder as I have the windscreen off (one side repaired) whether I should go the hassle of a Halberg type screen before I get new hood made – just aware it adds another delay :-/

 

Thanks for advice on prop anode – think I need to revisit the wiring around the prop to see where I’m at – definitely one in the re-wiring section of work.

 

Best Regards

 

John

[Brian Jones]

Hi John,

The bilge keels on Rouselle were about 1" thick all round with no baffles making it thicker would alleviate the need for baffles and it's shape would increase the strength as well. The only Seadog to founder was number 142 In Vancouver, She broke from her mooring and ripped a bilge off on being driven ashore. I can't remember the actual number that Reg Freeman yachts built but I think it was 138. The later ones were built by other yards and were nowhere near as thick a hull as Freeman yachts were and consequently  were lighter in weight. Obviously they had to reduce the general thickness of the hull to reduce the cost of production and for some , the standard of the woodwork varied but they didn't catch on. A lot of boats then were build with very much thinner hulls as they began to realise the strength of fibreglass e.g. the Contessa 32's hull amidships was only 3/8" thick and less than that aft. That seemed to be the general thickness of the new boats and that together with then older lines of the Seadog, they became unpopular and were phased out. Nowadays people want this strength and the Seadog is having a second life. One big change we made to Rouselle was that we removed all the foam backed vynal done below and applied Mahogany veneer everywhere. I also removed the Formica folding table and had  one made out of mahogany.

The photograph of the windscreen on Halberg Rassy would probably be unfittable on a Seadog because the bend of the windscreen is greater than the Halberg and I think you would require three sections each side. I would imagine that you either keep what you have or remove the moulding and go for a new windscreen with a new roof assembly which would be fixed. The big question there is it's got to follow the Seadog lines and not be too high as that would look out of place. I think that would be a big job and is it really worth doing because at the moment you have the option of having a canopy or rolling it up and placing it at the front of the screen on the deck.

The problem with the windscreen is it looks impossible to make but it's really not that difficult, once you have the correct section which was not available in my time but maybe now. If that section is produced then you will be able to get the rubber section to fit around the perspex and inside the section of aluminium. If that rubber section is unavailable you have to use black Sikoflex which makes the job much easier to do but an absolute swine when you come to renew it next time as Sikoflex sticks to everything and it's got to be removed completely. The easiest way to bend the perspex that I found was to gradually fit it in the bottom section but heat it at the same time. Once it is heated and fitted to the bottom section you are home and dry because the top section will also fit. I would suggest that two hands are better than on as you have to bend the perspex as well as heating it and the frame needs fitting at the same time. Once you have the hang of it you can fit one end of the frame in the vice and do it yourself.

If you have to bend a new piece of aluminium make a template of the curve first in a piece of MDF and you can fit it to that instead of having the boat next to you!

Please don't forget that I haven't got a Seadog and I'm doing all this from memory. When I remade my windscreens I made sure that the family were out at the time because now and then I used language that I hope they hadn't heard before!

Kind regards

Brian

Hi Brian,

 

Don’t think the bilge keels are 1” thick – will have a look next time, my guess is about ½” to ¾” depending on where you measured it – bit like the hull, variable thickness.

 

Re the windscreen: see attached from a HR31 – a bit like that? I’m thinking I probably put the new acrylic screen on and have a think, as it sounds like quite a project (with associated expense) along with strengthening for the traveller etc. as I actually do like the curve of the screen, but then would probably need to move to glass if I’m to avoid crazing etc. Hadn’t appreciated that until you said and can see from looking online it is a problem. Wondering whether I could get a rigid frame made first that fits, without flexing, and then take it to a glass specialist. Perhaps have to let the rough weather mini-dog house go.

 

Fantastic bunch of photo’s btw – have a close-up of Rouselle sitting on the sand on my other screen as I type – have been comparing the HR31 windscreen with hers.

 

Happy New Year – hope you get a chance for some fine sailing.

 

John

 

From: Brian Jones <brianbr...@yahoo.com>
Sent: 31 December 2022 18:04
To: John Lowe <jo...@myrtleberry.com>
Subject: Re: [SEADOG] RE: Seadogs

 

Hi John,

 

Rouselle was number 100 and she was a Mk 4 design which was the latest I think. She had the latest rudder section which was bigger than the earlier ones but I increased it further downwards by 4" aft to increase the sailing capabilities. I'll send you a photo of her showing the outline.  I was interested to hear that you had baffles in your bilge keels as Rouselle's keels were one inch thick which really didn't need them as they were incredible strong as it was. I put a one and a half inch pad on the bottom of each keel made of oak and glassed on that was to reduce the height of the keels off the ground when she was balanced on the main centre keel.  Being on a drying mooring meant that when the tide came in the boat would crash over to each side as the original height off the deck was about 5 inches. The pad and the fibre glass amounted to two inches deep and reduced the crash to a roll which was acceptable.

 

You mention a small dog house instead of a full windscreen. I have looked into that as well and there is a ketch of slightly longer than the Seadog, can't remember the name but it has a small dog house and screen which look OK. The problem with the Seadog is that the angle of the screen and the shape of the roof part has to be dead right to look right but yes it would make a huge improvement. I have seen one on a Centaur and that was about the same shape as would be required on the Seadog. The side panel needs to come back to about five inches infront of the winch to look right. I made cut-outs of the shape and found that the height of the unit needed to be no higher than the present canopy, which was too low to stand up when at the wheel and to get around that it would need a hatch way of some sort. Because of this I didn't proceed with it but I think it could be done with a bit of thought. The other point was that with our increasingly hot summers we really need to dispense with the roof and that is where the present rolled up canopy scours

However for winter winter sailing it would be very good.  There is a Super Seadog which is 32ft long and made of wood which has a wooden doghouse. I saw one in the Scillies one year and another in SW Ireland. They were designed and built by Reg Freeman but I haven't seen any more. I have a photo of one of them but where it is I don't know but I have a look and see if I can find it

 

Sorry hunted high and low but can't locate it under my normal system. I have about 4000photos but it's not under anything catalogued.

 

Happy New Year and may all the winds in 2023 be behind you

 

Brian

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 03:16:15 PM GMT, John Lowe <jo...@myrtleberry.com> wrote:

 

 

Hi Brian,

 

What hull No was Rouselle? Tarry is 47 I think. Just wondering whether baffles were a later addition. Problem with the bilge keels is they are slightly proud and higher risk for a prang – perfect for the odd obstruction in a harbour – does make you wonder whether the HM was taking something.

 

The windscreen amend sounds like a professional install as I think (not sure) the whole cabin raised section (incorporates cowling, hatch etc.) is one piece and as you say, in order not to look amateur / bodge-it, would have to be done well. So while you are there I wonder whether a small dog house could be incorporated for structural rigidity / hardiness in rough weather (see Halberg(?) example attached – mini version of that) without ruining the looks and then a mainsheet traveller forward of the windscreen (find myself occasionally getting caught in mainsheet hanging of mizzen post in snug cockpit) also better when tacking (?). Then re-do the hood off the back of the dog house which wouldn’t need a gap for mainsheet and could go aft of mizzen post – sounds ambitious but once you go down the road of changing the windscreen you might as well incorporate other amends. Thoughts welcome. Of course means its in the yard for even longer.

 

Yes, have really enjoyed the work – I’m about 1 ½ hrs away so go down for a day and a half and, whilst probably not the most accomplished practical person, can just take it slow, possibly a little on the obsessional side.

 

Happy New Year

 

John

 

From: Brian Jones <brianbr...@yahoo.com>
Sent: 30 December 2022 17:42
To: John Lowe <jo...@myrtleberry.com>
Subject: Re: [SEADOG] RE: Seadogs

 

Hi John,

 

Strangely enough ours did not have any baffles just one inch thick around with no cracks. One of the reasons apart from the fresh water for doing the keels was the fact that I hit a rock on the port side bilge keel at 6 knots when going into Baltimore harbour SW Ireland. I reported it to the Harbour master there and he said" Oh that one everybody hits that. We have thought of putting a buoy on it but have just not got round to it yet." There was a slice of gel coat that had come off but that was the only damage. Had we hit it square on I think it must have cracked but the missing gel coat suggests that we had hit it with a glancing blow and were lucky.

 

I realize that the windscreen change would be more work but you love a challenge John. If that moulding was made in two halves i.e. front and back with a gap in the middle you could remove the outer flange and straighten out the bend up against the inner flange, and fill the gaps either side with fibreglass and gel coat.  It's something that needs to look right and not a bodged job, which is just up your street!

 

The trouble with Seadog windscreens is that as soon as the panel is bent it causes a stress fracture that appears in the screw holes first and then splits right across the screen. If the panel is bent under heat you do not get stress fractures but it's almost impossible to heat the whole side panel together. I did it once with two of us using hot air guns on low power and that screen did last a lot longer, about 15 years but it was a tricky job. I suppose the answer would be to remove the entire moulding and start again from, the deck up. Too much work for a weekend John.

 

From the workload you have on Tarry I'm getting the opinion that you like doing what you are otherwise you would not take it on. I used to find that sort of work very enjoyable as you had an end result which you were happy with. I think If I was doing that windscreen job, I'd remove the whole moulding and fit a timber plinth for a flat screen panel system above. When completed the plinth could be oil varnished or painted pale duck egg blue. It would all depend on whether the original moulding is removable or part of the deck moulding. If it's part of the original moulding you could not do that as the flat base gap would be too wide to cover and it wouldn't look right and unless it was done by a Shipwright I think it would spoil the boat.

 

Have fun

 

Brian

 

 

 

 

 

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