No problems seen. RE: Z axis set too low on large shop shapeoko
Peter Tobias
There’s way too much on this thread to comment on anything in particular.
My experience over the last few weeks, which means at least six sessions on the large Shapeoko, is that everything is working fine. My cuts have all been either profile or vcarve, using v-bits or down cutting end mills.
Has anyone had a problem in the last week or two?
From: sdfwa-dig...@googlegroups.com <sdfwa-dig...@googlegroups.com>
On Behalf Of Rex A Schildhouse
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2020 11:06 PM
To: krum...@gmail.com <krum...@gmail.com>; SDFWA Digital Tools <sdfwa-dig...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Z axis set too low on large shop shapeoko
Kurt, James, Tim, everyone else,
I cannot tell you that you can duplicate my VCarve issues on the shop's Shapeokos. Different software updates, different defaults, different computer, different firmware in the Shapeoko, etc. Too many variables for an easy solution.
First, I rest fairly comfortable that if you make two identical projects, one in VCarve, one in Carbide Create the resulting G-code would not be identical. The software writers use different code to accomplish their goals. I loved teaching code writing because I saw so many different ways to accomplish the objective and those student generated exposures expanded my capabilities. And yet, the vast majority ended up with the same visual presentation.
Some of the unique code lines I put in some of my programs won my legal battles for me.
Merely my thoughts, and I created the same name plaques in VCarve, before I removed it, and in Carbide Create. The issues are / were Carbide Create would not handle a chamfered by V-bit pocket. So, I compromised and used an end mill. And surprise surprise. The VCarve plaque was "gouged" at the borders and around the letters when Pocket and Clearing Bit options were utilized while the Carbide Create was good. Just not as pretty as a true VCarve pocket should have been.
To clarify, I had issues whenever Pocketing and a Clearing Bit was used for a V-bit pocket detail end result.
Comment from Vectric -
Feed speed is too fast causing the V-bit to plunge deeper. Rejected based on logic and trials. If the feed speed is too fast the bit will NOT try to climb OUT of the cut, nor would it dig into it, it is a straight fluted bit, not climb or dig angles. I changed the feed speed to be painfully slow. Increasing the project time 200%-300%. I use "rectangular" up cut and straight flutes on my routers. The different bits are interesting to watch when routing signs and such. Especially if routing gouges or "troughs."
Feed speed is too slow. Rejected based on logic and trials. If the bit is moving slowly through the project its probability of wanting to climb or dig due to pressure of cutting into the wood is totally illogical to me. Sorry, my technical background is aeronautical, a mix of just about every science known to man.
Router RPM speed is too fast. Rejected based on logic and trials. Too fast would most likely burn the wood as the friction of the cut is focused on a small area for a long period of time - revolutions of the bit. A router speed too fast would not cause a V-bit to dig in or to climb out, especially when the V-bit is a straight cut fluted bit. And most of my wood is softwoods, not hardwoods. I have not looked but I have not seen a spiral fluted V-bit.
Router speed is too slow. Rejected based on logic and trials. There is no chatter from the bit and the router is not burdened, the cut is VERY smooth, the Shapeoko is not kerchunking from excessive pressure on the stepper motors.
The depth of cut is too much. Rejected based on logic and trials. Dealing with clean and clear softwoods and taking 0.10 inch when the "Wood Calculator" says I can cut 0.185 inches, is going conservative, changing the default passes from two or three to FIVE and the bit is not chattering, the router is not bogging down, the Shapeoko is not jumping stepper motor steps, etc.
These are the standard "We didn't really read your e-mail, we didn't really look at your files, we really don't care, please stop e-mailing customer support at Vectric" responses.
Tried to open my shop class projects in my purchased VCarve and VCarve would NOT open them. Interesting. Disappointed.
In my case only, I disagree with the possibility that the V-bit shifted in the collet. As I learned, I set X , Y, and Z to zero with the Carbide Probe using an end mill, do that work. Then put the V-bit and set only the Z to the new zero using the Carbide Probe. We all know you cannot use the probe to set X, Y, and Z with a V-bit. Depth of the V-bit cut, verified to be something like 0.030 inches in VCarve and the resulting cut is something like 0.055 inches. Reset the V-bit cut depth to 0.00 inches and it gouges to something like 0.050. Mathematically inconsistent. The Carbide Probe is approximately 0.25 inches above the wood. Based on the first failure the second run should have been a cut of (0.050 - 0.025) 0.025. Not 0.050.
So, very frustrated. If you want to see some of my projects, go to www.schildhouse.com and scroll down to Woodworking. I have several requests for my CNC clocks. They are now created with Carbide Create to the same precision as VCarve did them. However, putting off using the Shapeoko, just annoying to have that much $$$ wrapped up and cannot get VCarve and the Shapeoko to agree and produce.
Thanks,
Rex
On August 25, 2020 at 8:12 PM "krum...@gmail.com" <krum...@gmail.com> wrote:
It seems like there could possibly be a difference between V-carve and carbide create in the way they create their G-code files for Shapeoko, so that would be another variable to throw in the hopper (V-carve vs CC). I was going to do that very comparison on my last test, but V-carve worked, so I didn't end up testing it.
Kurt
On Tuesday, August 25, 2020 at 5:07:18 PM UTC-7 James Collard wrote:
Tim,
I am a relative newb to CAD but I was wondering if the depth differences generated for a V-bit and an endmill would show up in the G-Code for cutting profiles generated out of V-Carve. It would seem based on Rex's explanation that the Shapeoko is just doing what it is told to do. So if you assume the Shapeoko is cutting accurately then the next issue to rule out would seem to be the actual instructions that it is receiving for the two different bits.
James
On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 4:06 PM Tim Peachey < tim.p...@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Rex,
Thanks for the detailed explanation of your experiences. Seems like there may be several issues experienced by various of us on these machines. Your details give me the idea to do some experimentation and see what happens. In the simple class at the member shop, my results were as expected, but we were following a very canned procedure. When I made my first attempt at an inlay, I used a vcarve/engrave shape rather than pockets, per Howard's 3-2-1 process video, though I did use a clearing bit. There was some behaviour I didn't expect, but being a novice I assumed that either I did something wrong or misunderstood something. It first looks like the vbit might have gone too deep, but when I measured, it seems as though the vbit went to the right depth, but the endmill I used for clearing seems to be too shallow. The engineer in me wants to do some experimentation to troubleshoot the issue further. So I will set up a simple experiment with various features on some cheap wood and see what happens. I'll report back on progress. I want to figure out what I can use reliably before doing long jobs on more expensive wood. I will test with outlines, pockets, and v-carve/engrave.
Variables: feature type, bit type, depth of cut, use/non-use of clearing bit, and pass depth
Checks: zero height before and after, depth of each pass, x/y extents, bit security
While I am planning this, are there any other variables anyone else would suggest?
I'll try taking some pictures and video to share if I find anything of interest to the group.
On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 12:41 PM Rex A Schildhouse < raschi...@cox.net> wrote:
Based on my experience, not professional knowledge, it is a VCarve talking to Carbide Motion talking to the Shapeoko issue. And that answers almost nothing but it does focus the issue on VCarve. Sorry. I have made numerous things with Carbide Create, which does not do pockets well, and I get decent results. My statement is VCarve and Carbide Motion and the Shapeoko are in disagreement whenever I select the Pocket option in VCarve with a clearing bit followed by a V-bit. Played with one simple little block, which took over an hour. Made a letter block about 1 1/2" x 1 1/2" with one single letter in it and pocketed, like the children's' learning blocks. Told VCarve it was a 1/16" end mill while using a 90 degree V-bit. Knew it was going to be rough, it is called troubleshooting. The pocket was cut to the expected depth, just rough, ridged. When I told Carbide Motion to run the pocket and letter border with the 90 degree V-bit, it did exactly as expected, it gouged deeper than set on the borders of the pocket and around the letter. And I had not changed the bit AND DID NOT reset the Z zero. Tried it again, it takes over an hour to run, this time with a 1/8" end mill as a pocket clearing bit, which ate the letter but did not really care. Troubleshooting. Changed to the 90 degree V-bit, reset Z zero, and got the gouge.
My statement, on my setup of computer, VCarve, Carbide Motion, Shapeoko XXL, SOMETHING is wrong. And ZERO support from Vectric. Called Carbide 3D, they have been told by Vectric not to address VCarve issues.
VCarve is off my computers, the money is back in my accounts, most of the pieces are in my neighbor's fire pit.
All I wanted was a tool to make stuff for kids to smile at. I now avoid it as much as I can.
Thanks,
Rex
On Monday, August 24, 2020 at 11:50:32 AM UTC-7 krum...@gmail.com wrote:
Rex,
Based on your experience, you seem to be saying that it is likely a V-carve issue (with V-carve customer support unable to help). Have you tried using carbide create instead, and does that prevent this type of error? Or is this a problem for which you have yet to find a solution?
On Monday, August 24, 2020 at 11:10:05 AM UTC-7 Rex A Schildhouse wrote:
I have read almost every one of the e-mails about inappropriate depth on the Shapeoko. I have a Shapeoko XXL and I had VCarve as well as Carbide Create for creation and Carbide Motion for operations. I use the Carbide 3D probe for setting X, Y, and Z zeroes. I had inappropriate depth issues on anything I created with VCarve with pockets. While I cannot comment on the issues or processes of others or their results and causes, I can relate my total experience with the issue. And I will attach at least one photo for clarification.
Among other things, I found an Internet reference that stated there is a difference between an end mill and a square / rectangular router bit. An end mill is supposed to cut on a straight plunge easily while a square / rectangular router bit will not plunge cut as easily. The reference stated that most end mills the individual had bought were actually router bits, some nice photos were included. I have yet checked mine to see exactly what I have. His statement was, “when able, ramp any and all bits into the cut.”
When I put in an eighth inch end mill in my Shapeoko and carve a name plague I get decent and expected results. When I check X, Y, and Z zero it is still correct.
When I take the Pocket option in VCarve and use a clearing bit, again an eighth inch end mill, everything goes right UNTIL the VCarve is done with the 90 degree V-bit. Using the probe to reset only the Z zero, the values are verified to the pocket depth and the V-bit digs in 0.125 inch to 0.1875 inches, or more, below the depth of the pocket. And it is uniform on the outer frame of the pocket and uniform surrounding the letters of the name.
Depth to the point that it destroys the name.
So I step back and check Z zero and it is still correct. To believe, accept, that the bit creeped out due to insufficient tightening, and then it reset itself to the original depth is a bit past my understanding of physics and process.
The other issue which I base my disagreement on is that the depth of the V-bit carving is consistent throughout the work. It never starts correct and then increases, it never returns to expected. It starts in excess, stays in excess, and still checks to Z zero after the work is done.
Slowing the feed rate, increasing the travel of the ramping insertion did nothing. I even tried inserting an eighth inch end mill and telling the Shapeoko that it was a 90 degree V-bit and surprise surprise, inappropriate depth of consistent value. And another piece of wood for my neighbor’s fire pit.
One of the minor issues I had was I bought a 90 degree V-bit on Amazon. Did not check it upon arrival. Turned out it is a 60 degree V-bit in a 90 degree V-bit box. Amazon corrected it. However, it yields the same results.
In working with Vectric I got absolutely nothing other than questions.
From Vectric “Can you send us the file you are using?” and I did. When I asked what they found in the file, the answer was “Have you checked your feed speed?”
“Yes, the feed speed is good, the router is not bogging down, burning the wood, chattering, smoking, skipping, or rough cutting the path. What did you find in the file I sent?”
The reply would be “Are you setting the X, Y, and Z zeroes to the top of the project or the bottom?”
In the VCarve application the image is correct. The results are not what is depicted.
Weeks of no support, just question after question after question from Vectric before I finally gave up and asked for a refund.
So, based on my Shapeoko XXL, my results, my investigation, my results on MANY efforts, the V-bit is not creeping in my Shapeoko. Something between design and finished project is wrong.
0-2020-05-08-Rex-A-Schildhouse-005.jpg – Don’t you just love Wyatt’s “t”s?
0W-2020-05-13-Lilli-Name-Plaque-Carbide-Create.jpg – Carbide Create and a 0.125 end mill.
2020-05-13-Lilli-Name-Plaque-154604w.jpg – Telling Shapeoko that I was using a 90 degree V-bit and actually using a 0.125 inch end mill.
Rex A Schildhouse-Vectric-2020-05-05.pdf
One very frustrated Shapeoko - Former Vectric user.
Thanks,
Rex
On Sunday, August 23, 2020 at 8:14:13 AM UTC-7 Jeff Romek wrote:
Hey Kurt, sorry I didn't get back to you sooner but I had no issues at all when I used the machine last week.
Jeff
On Sat, Aug 22, 2020, 5:52 AM krum...@gmail.com < krum...@gmail.com> wrote:
Hey everyone,
I just wanted to give an update on my troubleshooting efforts. The good news is that I I was able to successfully make my cuts and confirm that there is indeed nothing wrong with the hardware (or likely software) on the Shapeoko. The bad news, is that my "control" condition, repeating the same cut that caused problems last time, did NOT cause the same problem! I couldn't do the EXACT same cut, as my workpiece was about 1/4" less deep in Z (after some thickness planing), but it was as close as I could get in every other way. I used the same V-carve file, same export procedure, and same bit-setup. This time, I confirmed that I had the "shapeoko" gcode file selected when saving from V-carve (and it was the default). I was hoping that would have been the cause, and I guess I can't fully rule that out, if for some reason, last time I did my cuts, a different default was popping up, and I didn't notice, but I think it's unlikely, as it would mean someone would have changed the default last week, and then now changed it back. The ONLY other thing that I can think that it could have been is that I DID put the bit more fully into the collet this time and perhaps that extra 1/4 inch, plus another 1/4 inch thinner piece, made some difference in clearance over the workpiece and a more accurate Z-height, but other than that, I'm out of ideas.
Thanks everyone for the great ideas and support. I'm sorry I couldn't replicate it, or figure it out definitively, but I am glad it is working! If anyone else has this problem in the future, maybe we can all figure it out next time.
Kurt
On Saturday, August 15, 2020 at 1:37:50 PM UTC-7 slive...@gmail.com wrote:
Yes thank you to Pay & Travis for trying!
I am sure combined we can figure it out!
And can I say that I am glad it wasn't just me?
Susan
On Sat, Aug 15, 2020, 1:33 PM love.evan < love...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Just to be completely fair to Pat... ... the problem has been recreated (re-experienced) ... ... just not during intentional observation.
;)
-------- Original message --------
From: Susan Lively Klug < slive...@gmail.com>
Date: 8/15/20 1:30 PM (GMT-08:00)
To: Travis Good < travi...@gmail.com>
Cc: SDFWA Digital Tools < sdfwa-dig...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Z axis set too low on large shop shapeoko
I could send you my spoon file but
I think a comparison of work flow may help.
I use vcarve desktop at home, bring file in and use shop computer to create toolpaths. (I think.. it has been too long)
Susan
On Sat, Aug 15, 2020, 11:11 AM Travis Good < travi...@gmail.com> wrote:
For everyone’s benefit ...
I was at the Shop yesterday with Pat as he tried to recreate the problem. He couldn’t and he tried hard. A problem can’t be solved if it can’t be recreated. Hopefully Kurt (or another) will provide the missing insight.
We all want to figure this out and fix what ever the problem is: hardware, software or process.
Thanks, Travis
On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 5:36 AM krum...@gmail.com < krum...@gmail.com> wrote:
Pat Duffy offered to help me troubleshoot. It sounds like a number of us have had similar issues, so we're either all making similar mistakes, or there's a HW/SW issue on our shop CNC.
I'll try a few tests of various conditions to see what I can figure out over the next couple of weeks and report back.
On Friday, August 14, 2020 at 8:28:49 PM UTC-7 Evan Moulton wrote:
Sounds like good things to check.
Do we have a person at the shop that is reading this email chat who is ready, willing, and able (and allowed) to check these things?
-------- Original message --------
From: Doug LaRue < doug....@gmail.com>
Date: 8/14/20 6:53 PM (GMT-08:00)
To: SDFWA Digital Tools < sdfwa-dig...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Z axis set too low on large shop shapeoko
On Friday, August 14, 2020 at 6:22:28 PM UTC-7, krum...@gmail.com wrote:This is exactly what I saw when I had switched over to my bowl bit to cut 2 handles on my board. After the first handle was cut, as the bit came across the piece to cut the 2nd handle, it dug a channel right across my piece. The first handle it cut was definitely too deep though, so I had assumed that it just went too deep overall, but then I guess it should have at least come back up to clear the surface between cuts, so it definitely seems like a hardware issue now that you bring this up.
"I zeroed at the top surface of the project.
But the z definitely did not go back up to clearance depth (or even surface depth) before it went across my project to do its second (and third) passes at the next depth.
So, I would say it's a case of the z not going up in increments equal to its down (thus losing its original z setting) and ending up too deep."
And that sounds like what would happen if SOMETHING about the lifting of the Z axis results in missed steps. Things I would check on my machine first would be how hot the Z axis motor gets and how hot the Z axis driver gets.
Then I would check the Z axis driver power setting. That could be a software setting or it could be a voltage read on the metal calibration screw to ground. Shapeoko should have information on this or something in the support forums.
Then I would check the Z axis lead screw and bearing to see that nothing is adding excessive loading on the Z axis making it too difficult to raise the motor and sled without skipping steps.
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Thanks,
Rex
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Rex A Schildhouse
Is the thread to address the Shapeoko in the workshop or to address VCarve and Shapeoko issues of the members of SDFWA?
I asked for help with the Shapeoko and VCarve I purchased based on SDFWA endorsements. I got very little. This thread has me thinking, not yet to the point of turning my investment of over $2,500+ back on yet but .....
The system sits in my workshop and has not been turned on for probably two months.
Why? Because I cannot get VCarve and Shapeoko to agree on production results.
So, is the thread to support the members or the workshop?
Rex
Doug LaRue
https://community.carbide3d.com/t/vcarve-3d-with-carbide-motion-issues/11634
Lance Grucela
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Tim Peachey
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Susan Lively Klug
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Tim Peachey
Rex A Schildhouse
Tim,
Super write-up, work, and results. I still think there is one or more settings on my system that is / are incorrect or incompatible as a production system. And that spans from the VCarve software, the host computer, the resultant gcode file, the Shapeoko's computer hardware, firmware, and hardware. It appears that my files have run okay or proper, on other systems. That may push my problem to the Shapeoko.
The lack of meaningful responses on how MY system is working from Vectric is frustrating.
The inability of Carbide3D to address the interactions of VCarve and the Shapeoko is frustrating. And no guidance, advise, from Carbide3D other than "Try Carbide Create."
I just want my system to make stuff for me to make other people happy and smile. Been admitted to the VA Medical Center SD twice in the last five days thru the emergency department. Still suffering from intermittent vertigo. Tons of tests, no answers. Mobility now restricted to a walker for stability. so not in the workshop.
Thanks,
Rex
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Thanks,
Rex