4pdt Diagram

[Nu Alessio]

Hiall. Looking to simulate/emulate a 4PDT relay for the purpose of running the old railroad relay circuits from the 50's and 60's. These were used to energize the signals used trackside red/yellow/green. These relays are the latching type DPDT up to 4PDT with some using a polarized contact (see diagram relay contacts just above the color signals) and some with just neutral contacts that do not depend on polarity. I need help in simulating the relays ONLY in a ladder diagram. I will try to figure out the whole circuit on my own but need help making the most efficient simulation of the relay itself as some of these circuits have hundreds of these relays. Attached is a simple circuit in use at the time. The relays are energized by the presence of 24 VDC connected by batteries across the track itself. The relays are then connected in various ways to protect the "blocks" so that trains do not enter these "blocks" at the same time causing a catastrophic event. Any help with a model of the relay itself would be appreciated. I Have seen a simple SPST ladder diagram but have had problems setting up a 4PDT ones.

Do you want to replace a single relay with a logo ? Then a detailed description of the functioning of the individual block section relays is necessary. The circuit diagram is only part of the solution. For example, it is not entirely clear to me how the switch should affect the block section ?

In addition, it is not so easy to convert the circuit diagram into a program. To do this, you first have to understand exactly what is going on there and, if necessary, find a completely different approach.

Thx for the reply. First, the relay does not affect the block The presence or absence of the 24 volts from the block is what controls the relay. Second, The relays are used to control the selection of the red/yellow/green signal. Thats all.

I basically want to change what I've seen as a single input latching switch (SPST) ladder that are shown in alot of tutorials to a 4PDT switch. Thats all. Dont need to worry about the complete circuit at all until I can get the switch inputs and ouput configuration correct.

For starters, the switching to select pickups and coil-split is good, leave that alone. Where the problems start in is at the Volume control itself - it's wired backwards!! This will most definitely cause hum and other noises, if you aren't inside of a cage that's constructed to block all such sources of noise.

Where Gibson chose to solve a non-existant problem with dual-pickup guitars (LP, SG, ES sesries, etc.), they wired the Vol pots backwards so as to avoid the problem of a player turning down one pickup all the way, which would kill off the other pickup when both are selected. Under normal wiring practices, what we call "forward wiring of the volume controls", this problem can never arise. Additionally, hum and noise don't become louder as you turn down the Vol control(s) in a forward design - whatever noises might be there will remain at the same level.

Now, that said, you need to move around only a few wires. The wire from the selector output should go to the uppermost terminal of the Vol pot, and the wiper (center terminal) should go to the output jack. If you wish to have a treble-bleed circuit, let me refer you to a discussion, here:

Now let's address the Tone Controls. Notice that in my previous paragraph, I said that the wiper of the Vol control should go directly to the output jack's "hot" terminal - I didn't say anything about the Tone control. It turns out that your diagram also has this backwards - the Tone control should come between the pickup selector and the Vol control. And wouldn't you know it, we've also discussed this at length, here:

Given all of that information, I think you can cobble together your own diagram, and post it here. As you may have already seen here in The NutzHouse, we don't particularly care if it's a professionally drawn sheet, or a hand-drawn diagram that you scanned in (if nothing else, take a pic with your phone), just do whatever you can to make it readable by the rest of us Nutz. We will then go over it, and if there's a mistake we'll tell you what's wrong.

Indeed. I have suffered before from "correct orientation-itis", and it's now apparent that I've suffered once again.

There's a good reason why we have standardized standards, and people who draw things that go against established standards should all be taken out back and shot. Sounds violent, I know, but I get pretty upset when I encounter "let's 'em off" idiots. Life's too short to have to re-evaluate something that should be straightforward.

The basic principle is: don't use the shielding to carry signal ground. Yes, they both end up at the ground terminal of the jack, making them electrically the same.... only they aren't the same.

In essence, you want each job to use their own tools. By that I mean, the job of shielding the guitar against outside intererence (hum) falls to the large coating of material, usually a piece of copper or aluminum laid flat against the back of the pickguard. Further shielding might be found (and should be found!) lining the pickup and control cavities.

So why not use that for grounding also? Because there is usally a small bit of resistance between the spot where you connect your signal ground and the spot where the material is (somehow) connected to the output jack's ground terminal. Is it a significant amount of resistance? Depends, on lots of things. But the idea here is, why push your luck? Even if it's only an Ohm or two, do you really need that in your signal path? Probably not.

Your signal path, both 'hot' and 'ground' leads, will operate best when there's the least chance of additional resistance, thus allowing the pickup(s) to operate at their fullest potential. That's it in a nutshell.

Since the main focus of GN2 is teaching, this might make a great community project. While I would really like to see more fun and frivolity added to the forum, the teaching aspect will always be our core.

That thread merely gives a link, but like I said, we tend to give a nod in Chris's direction whenever we can. The link goes to Stew-Mac, and I just checked, it's still viable. Give it a try, and if you have questions, you know where to ask them, eh?

But, i was looking on a site at the colour codes for the wires on dimarzio's. And figured (correct me if im wrong) that to keep them in phase, you need to go start to finish of the coil (ie green to white) on a south polarity coil, and finish to start on a north polarity coil (ie black to red).

The first thing you need to do is figure out which wires go where in each position, and then configure a switch setup. This scattergun approach will no doubt get you some interesting results, but unless you just get lucky, the chances of it working the way you expect it to are minimal. Carefully compare the diagram that Kevan showed you to yours, and see if they get equivalent results.

Just out of curiosity, since Ibanez has had decades of manufacturing experience (not to mention great designers like Jim Donahue), why would you assume that they would deliberately use a more complicated (and hence more expensive, both to purchase and to install) switch than was absolutely necessary? It's not impossible that they might have missed a simpler solution, but it isn't very likely.

uh, actually it won't. you haven't labeled the poles in your on/on/on switch, so i can't tell which asymmetrical set of poles will be active in the middle position, but regardless this diagram won't have both humbuckers' hot wires connected to the output in the middle position.

toggle switches and minitoggles don't work the same as 5-way strat or 3-way tele switches, where the middle positions make multiple tabs connect to the common output. neither do 24 pole switches. this is how an on/on/on DPDT toggle works:

so when using switches like that, or a 24 pole, you have to use extra banks of poles or make more connections to get things to work in middle positions where multiple pickups are on -- like in the JPM wiring. for the JPM, you need _two_ on/on/on toggles, and that's what the 12 pole 3-way switch essentially is.

in 15 years working with electronics i've never heard of a 'center-on' minitoggle that connects multiple poles to the common -- rocker switches, sure, but not toggles. Mouser doesn't seem to carry anything like that. a Google search turned up only that one URL that you posted, and regular on/on/on minitoggles called 'center-on' to differentiate them from on/off/on. that URL you posted says you can get those at Radio Shack, but i've never seen any toggle switch like that there. have you checked the switches you bought with a voltmeter? are you positive they work that way?

There we go! I have a couple of those switches for wiring in my strat and they're very nice. Incidentally i've already got 2 4pdt switches to wire up my new guitar but it was just something i noticed and thought i would share. I'm always one to believe that just because people are 'experts' doesn't mean that their way is always the best. After all, if people don't experiment, we never get anywhere now do we? as for my 'scattergun' approach, i like it, and it's always worked well for me! You only learn by experimenting, so why not 'ave a go?

Experimenting is great - however, reinventing the wheel is a waste of time! There's always one more way to do something, but people become experts by learning the simplest, easiest and least expensive way to do things effectively. Toggle switches are straight-forward mechanical devices, so applying logic is simpler and easier than "experimenting" - simply decide what results you desire, and select an appropriate switch and wiring scheme. If you can find a DPDT ON-BOTH-ON switch, you can probably make it work - as Scott said, it won't work with a standard ON-ON-ON toggle.

I would like to make a couple different relay parts. They consist of the coil and a set or multiple sets of contacts. What would be the be correct way to do this. When I make the part in the editor and try to use it in the schematic, I can not move the parts seperately, ie coil and contacts all move as a group. I was going to attach a picture but I guess I cant as a new user.

Thanks

Brandon

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