"sacred cow" potentially offensive?

[dotnetguy]

Hello - change management has the concept of "sacred cows." It's a good description, but is it potentially offensive to Indians in an organization?

[Ron Jeffries]

Ask some.

On Sep 29, 2013, at 7:45 PM, dotnetguy <andrew.d....@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello - change management has the concept of "sacred cows."  It's a good description, but is it potentially offensive to Indians in an organization?

Ron Jeffries

www.XProgramming.com

If another does not intend offense, it is wrong for me to seek it;

if another does indeed intend offense, it is foolish for me to permit it.

  -- Kelly Easterley

[dotnetguy]

@Ron - 1 of my best friends for the last 20 years is from Bombay, but he likes a good steak

[Ron Jeffries]

Ask the people who might be offended. No one else knows.

On Sep 29, 2013, at 7:52 PM, dotnetguy <andrew.d....@gmail.com> wrote:

@Ron - 1 of my best friends for the last 20 years is from Bombay, but he likes a good steak

Ron Jeffries

www.XProgramming.com

Don't ignore your dreams; don't work too much; say what you think; cultivate friendships; be happy. -- Paul Graham

[dotnetguy]

@Ron, I'll try that. In the meantime, if there are any Indian sm's here or if anyone has treaded in this territory before, then I would appreciate your feedback :)

[Madhur Kathuria]

Hi Andrew

There have been a lot of religious sentiments related to this in the past and in some pockets of India even now. 

But, the times are a changing and most people in the IT segment take it easy when it comes to these kinda issues as they take a more professional approach

Its always good to be cautious though. e.g. I removed the reference to the Pig and Chicken story from my courses as it could have been considered offensive by some of the attendees

---

With Regards,
Madhur Kathuria, CSC, CSP, CSM, CSA

Chair, India Scrum Enthusiasts Community (ISEC)

Founder, Agile Pune

 
Call: +91.8506011150

Skype: madhur.kathuria

www.madhurkathuria.com

www.agiledevilsworkshop.com

On 30 September 2013 05:37, dotnetguy <andrew.d....@gmail.com> wrote:

@Ron, I'll try that. In the meantime, if there are any Indian sm's here or if anyone has treaded in this territory before, then I would appreciate your feedback :)

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[Mark Levison]

Madhur I removed the pigs and chickens reference because there are better ways to illustrate the idea.

Andrew, last week you asked about Charles Manson and his membership on a team. Remarkably insensitive to the families of the people he killed. This week you're off to discuss things not even mentioned in scrum.

Please look up the inevitable kool aid reference before you add it to the list. (It's a reference to Jim Jones).

In the meantime can we return to discussing something directly related to scrum?

Cheers
Mark

[dotnetguy]

Madhur - Thanks so much for your insight! Obviously if there are cultural tensions in an organization, I won't use this reference, since it could be a trigger. However, in a normal organization, I think I should feel comfortable using this expression, without feeling like I'm overstepping cultural boundaries.

However, this thread has planted a seed in my head that I should also consider a suitable neutral alternative.

[madhur....@gmail.com]

Yes. I guess we are on the same plain :)
Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel

[Daniel James Gullo]

AND, if you find yourself at the point of asking, it's a good indication that someone, somewhere, sometime will take offense.  Sometimes, people are hurt and offended by things that never even cross our minds because we all process information slightly differently.

"How can I make a difference so that I may bring peace to this world that I love and cherish so much?" - Gandhi

[dotnetguy]

@Mark - Last week I mentioned Charles Manson, because, on my last Scrum project, I worked with a woman who was very much like Charles Manson. I wish you wouldn't make assumptions and cyberbully me.

[Daniel James Gullo]

+1  

I always hated that reference in Scrum.  :)

"How can I make a difference so that I may bring peace to this world that I love and cherish so much?" - Gandhi

[Mark Levison]

Andrew you've never met me, cyber bully seems quite unlikely.

Your choice of metaphor seems rather off. Instead of equating your colleague to a murder why not describe the events that frustrated you.

Funny most people who know me think I go too far with empathy sometimes. Trying to understand behaviours that are far sensible.

Mark

On Sep 29, 2013 11:13 PM, "dotnetguy" <andrew.d....@gmail.com> wrote:

@Mark - Last week I mentioned Charles Manson, because, on my last Scrum project, I worked with a woman who was very much like Charles Manson.  I wish you wouldn't make assumptions and cyberbully me.

[dotnetguy]

@Daniel - Your previous post makes a very good point as well. An Indian might normally be indifferent to a "sacred cow" reference. However, he could be experiencing cultural tensions in his own life, at that particular time. If so, then the "sacred cow" reference could make him snap.

[Markus Gärtner]

Andrew,

> On 30.09.2013, at 07:13, dotnetguy <andrew.d....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> @Mark - Last week I mentioned Charles Manson, because, on my last Scrum project, I worked with a woman who was very much like Charles Manson. I wish you wouldn't make assumptions and cyberbully me.

I think you are judging people too soon. Please take two things from Jerry Weinberg into consideration:
The Rule of Three Interpretations: "If I don't come up with at least three different interpretations about something I perceive, I have not thought enough."

The Helpful Model: "No matter how it looks like, everybody is trying to be helpful."

Best Markus

[dotnetguy]

@Markus - Rule of 3 is good for perspective. Criticizing a mention of Charles Manson persona as "remarkably insensitive to the families of the people he killed" seems to be at the extreme end of the curve.

[Markus Gärtner]

Andrew,

You used other analogies in the past as well, like how to deal with Scrum jihadists. I find that even as insensitve as the Charles Manson reference - maybe because I am from Germany.

Please remind yourself of the Openness value of Scrum, and apply that to people. Thank you.

Best Markus

--

Dipl.-Inform. Markus Gärtner
Author of ATDD by Example - A Practical Guide to Acceptance
Test-Driven Development

http://www.shino.de/blog
http://www.mgaertne.de
http://www.it-agile.de
Twitter: @mgaertne

On 30.09.2013, at 07:52, dotnetguy <andrew.d....@gmail.com> wrote:

@Markus - Rule of 3 is good for perspective.  Criticizing a mention of Charles Manson persona as "remarkably insensitive to the families of the people he killed" seems to be at the extreme end of the curve.

[dotnetguy]

@Markus, the "Openness" value of Scrum refers to expressing concerns:

http://www.scrumalliance.org/why-scrum/core-scrum-values-roles

You're probably alluding to "Respect." There are a lot of radically different of people in this world, and believe it or not, many of these people prefer to be recognized for who they are.

I don't feel that I'm a disrespectful person. I feel that the *on-topic* posts in this thread reflect that. I do think it's interesting to truly understand people's differences, motivations, etc.

[Yves Hanoulle]

@Dotnetguy,

please say more how was that women like Charles Manson? How many peopel did she kill?

y

2013/9/30 dotnetguy <andrew.d....@gmail.com>

@Mark - Last week I mentioned Charles Manson, because, on my last Scrum project, I worked with a woman who was very much like Charles Manson.  I wish you wouldn't make assumptions and cyberbully me.

[dotnetguy]

@yves:

* similar looking/acting

* similar voice/speech

* similar reasoning/aggression

* don't know if she's killed anyone

[Yves Hanoulle]

when you compare someone with Charles Manson, I only think of the killings

I have never met Charles, so I don't know 

his looks or the way he acts
neither the way he speaks 

not even his reasoning

by comparing a person with him, you loose me. 
I think no one deserves to be compared with a mass murderer. 

y

2013/9/30 dotnetguy <andrew.d....@gmail.com>

[dotnetguy]

I have never met Charles, so I don't know 

his looks or the way he acts

neither the way he speaks 

not even his reasoning

You've never seen Charles Manson on TV?

[Yves Hanoulle]

>@Markus, the "Openness" value of Scrum refers to expressing concerns:

I'm with Markus, Open for me means much much more.

>There are a lot of radically different of people in this world, and believe it or not, many of these people prefer to be recognized for who they are.

Let me see if I understand it correctly, by comparing people you don't like with Manson and Jihads, you want to recognize them for who they are?

>I don't feel that I'm a disrespectful person.  

good. No one said that. What I read is that people tell you, some of the remarks you made where disrespectfull to absent people. 
I personally don't trust people who are disrespectfull to absent people, as I have no idea how they will talk about me when I'm absent. 

>I don't feel that I'm a disrespectful person.  

That is exactly my/our point. 
People are not their actions. You feel that Mark attacks you as a person, in my eyes, what he did was point out that you are labeling people and he does not like that. 

>I do think it's interesting to truly understand people's differences, motivations, etc.

yes. so what are your motives by labeling that women as Charles Manson?

2013/9/30 dotnetguy <andrew.d....@gmail.com>

[dotnetguy]

@yves, here's a vid of manson, if you've never seen him on tv:  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNxNkbjanHs

[Yves Hanoulle]

no I have not. 
I know who he is, and this is enough. 

y

2013/9/30 dotnetguy <andrew.d....@gmail.com>

[Daniel Gullo]

Indeed.  Mark is the polar opposite of a "cyber bully".  Humorous, yes.  Sarcastic, sometimes.  But never ill-intentioned.  I think he was trying to help you, Andrew.

Ganbarimasu-

Daniel Gullo

CSC, CST   |   SolutionsIQ

dgu...@solutionsiq.com   |   Cell: 302.276.4454   |   Skype: daniel_james_gullo   |   Twitter: @danielgullo   |   www.agiletrainer.com

I am speaking at:

2013 Scrum Gathering Paris ( September 23-25 ) - #sgcdg

[Yves Hanoulle]

so let's go back to intentions, why do you send this?

y

2013/9/30 dotnetguy <andrew.d....@gmail.com>

[dotnetguy]

The Manson question?  Was wondering if anyone else had a similar experience they could share, with lessons learned?

[Yves Hanoulle]

no, why do you send a video link.

y

2013/9/30 dotnetguy <andrew.d....@gmail.com>

[dotnetguy]

@yves - you said:

I have never met Charles, so I don't know 

his looks or the way he acts

neither the way he speaks 

not even his reasoning

so the vid was to help provide context

[dotnetguy]

> I'm with Markus, Open for me means much much more.

ok, sounds like you feel "openness" should include being open minded.  I agree that it's good to be open minded.

> Let me see if I understand it correctly, by comparing people you don't like with Manson and Jihads, you want to recognize them for who they are?

why are you assuming I dislike these team members?  I respect people's differences.

> You feel that Mark attacks you as a person, in my eyes, what he did was point out that you are labeling people and he does not like that.

"remarkably insensitive" is one of the worst labels possible.

> yes. so what are your motives by labeling that women as Charles Manson?

I was simply describing a persona

[Yves Hanoulle]

I never said I want to see him.

you tried to rescue me.
while rescuing: 

You made the assumption I was interested in knowing. 
I said "I know who he is, and this is enough." that is the exact opposit. 

On top do you really think I can't find this video when I want to?

I'm pointing this out, because they are examples in this group, how you jump to conclusions about people.
Exactly the kind of things we say that you do about other people.

in my opinion, one of the worst things you can do in agile is rescuing people.

Y

2013/9/30 dotnetguy <andrew.d....@gmail.com>

[dotnetguy]

@yves - the first step of problem solving is to define the problem. sounds like you're uncomfortable with this problem, so you shouldn't feel obligated to participate in this particular conversation.

[Yves Hanoulle]

I'm telling you that I don't want to be rescued, and as a reaction, tell me I sound un-comfortable and I should better leave  the conversation. 
Although you used words from NVC, your messages are not. 

A few people in this mailing list have at multiple times told you that you seem to be judging.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt as I have no idea who these other persons (that you call jihads and Manson) are.

In this conversation, you made assumptions about Mark, Markus and myself.
As far as I can tell, in all three cases wrong assumptions. 

The team members, on who you make assumptions are not on the list to defend themself.

I am, and you tell me I better leave the conversation.

I will take this up with my personal coaches to see how much of this is true.

let's get the mailing list back to discuss about scrum 

y

2013/9/30 dotnetguy <andrew.d....@gmail.com>

@yves - the first step of problem solving is to define the problem.  sounds like you're uncomfortable with this problem, so you shouldn't feel obligated to participate in this particular conversation.

[Ron Jeffries]

Thread has gone unproductive.

No more posts to this thread, please.

Your friendly moderator,