ScotsGate Scots Language Portal
wabma...@scotsgate.com
extent by an estimated 1.6 million people throughout Lowland Scotland,
Ulster, Orkney and the Shetland Islands. Easily find all the important
Scots web sites and resources, discover news items about the
controversial debate on the status of Scots and download ScotsGate's
free guide to Scots Grammar. Visit www.scotsgate.com
Mike Lyle
Duly bookmarked: a valuable site. Thank you.
(By the way, it would be fine to see more Scots popping in and out of
alt.usage.english: most contributors are American, so no great
cross-border political compromise is necessary!)
Mike.
Jess Askin
"Mike Lyle" <mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:311hguF...@uni-berlin.de...
> wabma...@scotsgate.com wrote:
> > ScotsGate is a new portal to the Scots language, spoken to varying
> > extent by an estimated 1.6 million people throughout Lowland
> Scotland,
> > Ulster, Orkney and the Shetland Islands. Easily find all the
> important
> > Scots web sites and resources, discover news items about the
> > controversial debate on the status of Scots and download
> ScotsGate's
> > free guide to Scots Grammar. Visit www.scotsgate.com
>
> Duly bookmarked: a valuable site. Thank you.
>
> (By the way, it would be fine to see more Scots popping in and out of
> alt.usage.english: most contributors are American,
Only by a narrow margin. Probably more Brits per capita.
Maria Conlon
>
> (By the way, it would be fine to see more Scots popping in and out of
> alt.usage.english: most contributors are American, so no great
> cross-border political compromise is necessary!)
When we did an AUE survey in June (covering how old we are and where
we're from), there were 27 US residents responding.
But there were also 4 Australians, 1 South African, 1 New Zealander, 1
from Japan, 3 from Germany, 2 from The Netherlands, 1 from Taiwan, 2
Canadians, and (ta-da!) 23 from the UK.
That's 27 Americans and 38 non-Americans.
True, more people responded from the US than from any other single
country, but they were outnumbered by the total of non-Americans.
A bit more regarding the survey: Of the 65 responses, there were 55 from
men and 10 from women. The average age was 49.56 years. (That was six
months ago... are we averaging 50+ now?)
See http://tinyurl.com/6wrlx for the "Final Report"
and http://tinyurl.com/6legt for a brief add-on.
All that aside, I think "more Scots popping in and out" would certainly
be welcome. (But what did you mean about cross-border political
compromise?)
Maria Conlon
Michilín
You're very politically savvy!
You must work for the State Department...
Michilín
Tony Cooper
Send Auld Bob over from soc.culture.scottish. He's one of the most
interesting posters on Usenet.
Mike Lyle
> Mike Lyle wrote:
>>
>> (By the way, it would be fine to see more Scots popping in and out
of
>> alt.usage.english: most contributors are American, so no great
>> cross-border political compromise is necessary!)
>
> When we did an AUE survey in June (covering how old we are and
where
> we're from), there were 27 US residents responding.
>
> But there were also 4 Australians, 1 South African, 1 New
Zealander, 1
> from Japan, 3 from Germany, 2 from The Netherlands, 1 from Taiwan,
2
> Canadians, and (ta-da!) 23 from the UK.
>
> That's 27 Americans and 38 non-Americans.
>
> True, more people responded from the US than from any other single
> country, but they were outnumbered by the total of non-Americans.
OK, I'm duly chastened. Let's compromise and say a majority of
non-Brits. And of the Brits some aren't English.
> A bit more regarding the survey: Of the 65 responses, there were 55
> from men and 10 from women. The average age was 49.56 years. (That
> was six months ago... are we averaging 50+ now?)
>
> See http://tinyurl.com/6wrlx for the "Final Report"
> and http://tinyurl.com/6legt for a brief add-on.
>
> All that aside, I think "more Scots popping in and out" would
> certainly be welcome. (But what did you mean about cross-border
> political compromise?)
A frivolous throwaway, that's all: some Scots might perhaps, I
pretended, have imagined that "English" here meant "English" rather
than "English".
Mike.
Bob Cunningham
<mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> said:
[...]
> A frivolous throwaway, that's all: some Scots might perhaps, I
> pretended, have imagined that "English" here meant "English" rather
> than "English".
"English" can certainly be ambiguous, and "British" is too
often used when we don't intend to encompass such a large
and diverse population. I suggest that we henceforth say
"Englandish" when we want to refer to the people or the
language of England.
Alan Smaill
That's "English English" for the language variant isn't it?
As opposed to "British English", "American English" etc...
"English" is fine for the people, though ...
(or should I say *nglish)
--
Alan Smaill
Daniel Mac an Toisich
If himself is not invited is oneself at least?
Bob Cunningham
> > [...]
Years ago in alt.usage.english, I posted regarding the
injustice to the people of England of having the name
"English" applied to a wide variety of dialects of their
language. I felt that the name "English" should be theirs
alone.
For the many other languages that are now called English, I
proposed the term "Angloid". The family of languages under
that term would include, for example, American Angloid,
Canadian Angloid, and Australian Angloid.
Unfortunately, many people have formed their impression of
what the suffix "-oid" means from movies and television, so
that they think it must connote something grotesque and
misshapen. But all it means is, according to
_Merriam-Webster's 11th Collegiate Dictionary_
Main Entry:1-oid
Function:noun suffix
: something resembling a (specified) object or having
a (specified) quality *globoid*
The many varieties of World English resemble the language of
the English people but are not the same as it, so the suffix
"-oid" applies very well.
I suppose "Engloid" would be another possibility.
Mike Lyle
Onie time! (In a nice sense, of course: we're not affstaunin.)
Mike.
Django Cat
It's an interesting concept, and though I don't have a suggestion for
a name, divorcing the language from the nationality has a lot going
for it.
DC
Daniel Mac an Toisich
The original posting chinless wasp diasporist twit should go away and play with it
Daniel Mac an Toisich
What wrong with Enghuman Subenghuman? Saxon can be Enghuman and the
poster can be subenghuman. Get all the leather gear and everything!
allan connochie
"Django Cat" <nos...@please.com> wrote in message
news:fsopq091fai2u53od...@4ax.com...
The form of Standard English used in Scotland is called "Scottish Standard
English" so something like "English Standard English" could be used to
describe the language of england rather than english in general.
cheers
Allan
>
> DC
Mike Lyle
?
Mike.
Michilín
wrote:
>Am fear a phosas bean posaidh e dragh
(The man who marries a wife marries trouble)
Dána gach fear go túlaig
every man is bold until the assembly (Irish proverb)
Bithidh i Caismeachd Chloinn Chamrain - glan as an taigh!
It will be the March of the Cameron Men - right out of the house!
Michilín
Bob Cunningham
> > >> Bob Cunningham <exw...@earthlink.net> writes:
> > >> > [...]
But my point is that English was originally the language of
the English people and they shouldn't have to be burdened
with finding a more complicated name for it. It should be
up to others who have borrowed the language to find unique
names for their varieties. "English" should be simply the
name of the language spoken in England.
"English English" is often used to specify the language of
England, and that is probably the simplest way as things now
stand.
By the way, I know it's an oversimplification to speak of
*the* language of England, given that there are a variety of
dialects called English in England itself. I'm sure there
are dialects in England that differ from the speech of
Southern England much more than Midwestern American English
does.
I also know that the topic of this thread is nothing but an
academic exercise, fun to play with but fairly certainly not
likely to change anything.
Theodore de Bere
<mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> said:
> Daniel Mac an Toisich wrote:
[...]
> > The original posting chinless wasp diasporist twit should go
> > away and play with it
When I see idiotic comments like that in Usenet, I'm
reminded that there's no lower age limit for posters. I
would guess that Daniel <Whatever> is probably about 14.
> ?
Well said.
Django Cat
Mackintosh.
Django Cat
Django Cat
S Viemeister
No. That's quite different.
Sheila
Django Cat
Ah right. Thanks. Now we know. [Whistles, shakes head, stares at
boots, wanders away into middle distance].
Bob Cunningham
> Django Cat wrote:
My paternal grandfather was conceived in Scotland and born
in America. He learned from his family to call himself a
Scotchman and he occasionally liked to tell me how to say
things in Scotch. (I was never able to repeat them to his
satisfaction.)
I wonder to what extent the insistence on "Scottish" and
"Scots" is supported by the Scottish man-in-the-street.
Peter Moylan
>But my point is that English was originally the language of
>the English people and they shouldn't have to be burdened
>with finding a more complicated name for it. It should be
>up to others who have borrowed the language to find unique
>names for their varieties. "English" should be simply the
>name of the language spoken in England.
>
>"English English" is often used to specify the language of
>England, and that is probably the simplest way as things now
>stand.
>
>By the way, I know it's an oversimplification to speak of
>*the* language of England, given that there are a variety of
>dialects called English in England itself. I'm sure there
>are dialects in England that differ from the speech of
>Southern England much more than Midwestern American English
>does.
It goes much further than that. I'd guess that there is
more dialectal variation in that one little island than in
the entire rest of the English-speaking world. (And that
possibly remains true if you confine attention to the subset
of the island that is England.) In that sense, there isn't
really an "English English"; that phrase encompasses a huge
bag of different Englishes.
--
Peter Moylan peter at ee dot newcastle dot edu dot au
http://eepjm.newcastle.edu.au (OS/2 and eCS information and software)
S Viemeister
Most Scots today, say 'Scots' and 'Scottish' rather than Scotch.
Sheila
S Viemeister
>
> On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 20:13:11 -0500, S Viemeister
> <firstname...@which.net> wrote:
>
> >Django Cat wrote:
> >>
> >> On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 23:10:55 -0000, "allan connochie"
> >> <al...@EASYNET.CO.UK> wrote:
> >
> >> >The form of Standard English used in Scotland is called "Scottish Standard
> >> >English"
> >>
> >> Not 'Scots' then?
> >
> >No. That's quite different.
> >
> >Sheila
>
> Ah right. Thanks. Now we know. [Whistles, shakes head, stares at
> boots, wanders away into middle distance].
Two different things.
Scottish Standard English is English as spoken in Scotland. Scots is a
language (or dialect) related to English.
Sheila
Peter Moylan
>But my point is that English was originally the language of
>the English people and they shouldn't have to be burdened
>with finding a more complicated name for it. It should be
>up to others who have borrowed the language to find unique
>names for their varieties. "English" should be simply the
>name of the language spoken in England.
>
>"English English" is often used to specify the language of
>England, and that is probably the simplest way as things now
>stand.
>
>By the way, I know it's an oversimplification to speak of
>*the* language of England, given that there are a variety of
>dialects called English in England itself. I'm sure there
>are dialects in England that differ from the speech of
>Southern England much more than Midwestern American English
>does.
It goes much further than that. I'd guess that there is
allan connochie
Sheila is right. What is known as "Scottish Standard English" is simply
Standard English as spoken in Scotland. It's pretty similar to Standard
English but uses a few Scotticisms borrowed from Scots. Scots is a closely
related language which according to government figures is spoken, at least
to some extent, by around 1.5 million people.
Allan
allan connochie
People in Scotland don't exactly lose sleep over it though most prefer Scots
or Scottish. You do get some who'll jump on it straight away. Scotch was
originally a contracted form of the word Scottish imported from England
which became very common in Scotland itself at one time. At least it was
better than the term North Briton which some were using at that time. The
word "Scotch" has been regarded as old fashioned for a long time now and
generally fell out of use in favour of the indiginous terms (for want of a
better expression) except when used to describe certain objects (ie whisky,
eggs, mist).
Allan
>
don groves
de Bere at tedd...@earthlink.net exposited:
No lower IQ limit either.
--
dg (domain=ccwebster)
Django Cat
<al...@EASYNET.CO.UK> wrote:
And indeed the landmark hotel in Edinburgh, now the Balmoral, was
until fairly recently 'The North British Hotel'. -
http://www.viaggiaresempre.it/Edimburgo10.jpg
DC
Daniel Mac an Toisich
> In article <rl3qq0lspfrs5tata...@4ax.com>, Theodore
> de Bere at tedd...@earthlink.net exposited:
> > On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 23:13:42 -0000, "Mike Lyle"
> > <mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> said:
> >
> >
One has already commented on ones lamentable IQ (ask claire) but if
the above posters are taking the original posting as serious fine but
one has just realized that it was probably a joke and for one response
one apologizes (and apologizes for the language though not the
sentiment anyway even if it were not) however having experience with
wasp diaspora enforcing moreons one would also ask the poster to not
be so reckless with humoure ones fellow iq-ers on the other side wuill
take the poster seriously as one has AND apply it (imagine one then
crying into ones ribena "Stupid F****G AR*****S!") Behind ones
response is at least a sincere (is that teh correct spelling) concern
for people who are being railroaded by every tony blair wannabee venus
groped piece of "Stupid F****G AR*****S!
Tony Cooper
Toisich) wrote:
Can anyone translate this? Babelfish doesn't help.
Mike Lyle
sideways!
Mike.
Mike Lyle
I still don't even know which of us he called the "OP", as this is
now one of those "Was: ... Was:..." threads. At least then I'd have
an idea of what upset him.
You'll have to tell us, I'm afraid, Daniel.
Mike.
Bob Cunningham
>
> "Bob Cunningham" <exw...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:aj8qq09dv0ep94ubc...@4ax.com...
[...]
> > My paternal grandfather was conceived in Scotland and born
> > in America. He learned from his family to call himself a
> > Scotchman and he occasionally liked to tell me how to say
> > things in Scotch. (I was never able to repeat them to his
> > satisfaction.)
> > I wonder to what extent the insistence on "Scottish" and
> > "Scots" is supported by the Scottish man-in-the-street.
> People in Scotland don't exactly lose sleep over it though
> most prefer Scots or Scottish. You do get some who'll jump
> on it straight away.
The first such jump I experienced was at a bar in a hotel in
Edinburgh. The jumper was probably the most charming
bartender I've ever encountered. When I said "Scotch" she
said "Scottish" with an enchanting smile that would have
melted a heart of stone.
> Scotch was originally a contracted form of the word
> Scottish imported from England which became very common in
> Scotland itself at one time. At least it was better than
> the term North Briton which some were using at that time.
> The word "Scotch" has been regarded as old fashioned for a
> long time now and generally fell out of use in favour of
> the indiginous terms (for want of a better expression)
My Cunningham ancestors (great-greatgrandparents and their
numerous children and grandchildren) left Scotland in about
1860. I suppose "Scotch" and "Scotchman" may not yet have
fallen so out of favor then as they did later.
> except when used to describe certain objects (ie whisky,
> eggs, mist).
The last time I drank any Scotch whisky was in about 1940.
I occasionally joined an acquaintance who liked to drink
Scotch and listen to Strauss waltzes. I don't know the
quality of the Scotch he drank, but I remember it as being
not bad.
Lately, in watching "Mash" reruns, I've been impressed by
the esteem the actors hold for "12-year-old Scotch". ("Not
enough 'o's in 'smooth' to describe it.") So one of these
days I'm going to splurge and get a bottle of Johnny Walker
Black Label to see if it's really that good.
What's the best way to drink 12-year-old Scotch? I've heard
of Scotch and water and Scotch and soda, but I suspect the
best way might be to sip it straight but slowly. Especially
at about US$30 for 0.75 liter, slowly sounds like it has a
lot going for it.
Bob Cunningham
(Peter Moylan) said:
I always take "English English" to mean the language of
Southern England that gave rise to traditional Received
Pronunciation and to the more modern version that's reported
by the _New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary_.
Probably the most pleasing "English English" I've heard
lately is that spoken by Diana Rigg in her introductions to
the "Mystery" episodes on KCET, the local Public
Broadcasting System channel, and also in the leading role
she plays in the "Mrs Bradley" episodes. It's worth
watching the shows just to hear her speak.
I see (at http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001671/ ) she was born
in Doncaster, Yorkshire. I suspect she put lotsa work early
on into losing her native regional accent.
Bob Cunningham
<tony_co...@earthlink.net> said:
> On 1 Dec 2004 03:48:26 -0800, gne...@hotmail.com (Daniel Mac an
> Toisich) wrote:
[empty attributions omitted]
> >One has already commented on ones lamentable IQ (ask claire) but if
> >the above posters are taking the original posting as serious fine but
> >one has just realized that it was probably a joke and for one response
> >one apologizes (and apologizes for the language though not the
> >sentiment anyway even if it were not) however having experience with
> >wasp diaspora enforcing moreons one would also ask the poster to not
> >be so reckless with humoure ones fellow iq-ers on the other side wuill
> >take the poster seriously as one has AND apply it (imagine one then
> >crying into ones ribena "Stupid F****G AR*****S!") Behind ones
> >response is at least a sincere (is that teh correct spelling) concern
> >for people who are being railroaded by every tony blair wannabee venus
> >groped piece of "Stupid F****G AR*****S!
> Can anyone translate this?
Does anyone want to?
> Babelfish doesn't help.
Charles Riggs
Toisich) wrote:
You gotta like this guy. He's different, to put it mildly, which is
refreshing.
--
Charles Riggs
They are no accented letters in my email address
Charles Riggs
Can anyone provide Coop with the imagination, sense of adventure, and
appreciation for things novel, that he so clearly lacks?
Django Cat
Yeah, pissed me off too - Balmoral is so totally unmemorable. Must
have happened within the past ten years I think - I've spent the last
three summers working in Edinburgh and it's been the Balmoral all that
time.
DC
Wood Avens
wrote:
>On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 16:54:09 GMT, Bob Cunningham <exw...@earthlink.net>
>wrote:
>>I always take "English English" to mean the language of
>>Southern England that gave rise to traditional Received
>>Pronunciation and to the more modern version that's reported
>>by the _New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary_.
>Melvyn Bragg has a good English English voice. I sometimes listen to his
>"In Our Time" program over the Internet on BBC 4.
If English English is the language of Southern England, then Melvyn
isn't a good example. He's from Cumbria. And it's still apparent.
--
Katy Jennison
spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @
Django Cat
<exw...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 06:28:34 -0000, "allan connochie"
><al...@EASYNET.CO.UK> said:
>
>>
>> "Bob Cunningham" <exw...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>> news:aj8qq09dv0ep94ubc...@4ax.com...
>
>[...]
>
>> > My paternal grandfather was conceived in Scotland and born
>> > in America. He learned from his family to call himself a
>> > Scotchman and he occasionally liked to tell me how to say
>> > things in Scotch. (I was never able to repeat them to his
>> > satisfaction.)
>
>> > I wonder to what extent the insistence on "Scottish" and
>> > "Scots" is supported by the Scottish man-in-the-street.
>
>> People in Scotland don't exactly lose sleep over it though
>> most prefer Scots or Scottish. You do get some who'll jump
>> on it straight away.
>
>The first such jump I experienced was at a bar in a hotel in
>Edinburgh. The jumper was probably the most charming
>bartender I've ever encountered. When I said "Scotch" she
>said "Scottish" with an enchanting smile that would have
>melted a heart of stone.
>
So you weren't ordering a drink then.
>
[snip]
>The last time I drank any Scotch whisky was in about 1940.
>I occasionally joined an acquaintance who liked to drink
>Scotch and listen to Strauss waltzes. I don't know the
>quality of the Scotch he drank, but I remember it as being
>not bad.
>
>Lately, in watching "Mash" reruns, I've been impressed by
>the esteem the actors hold for "12-year-old Scotch". ("Not
>enough 'o's in 'smooth' to describe it.") So one of these
>days I'm going to splurge and get a bottle of Johnny Walker
>Black Label to see if it's really that good.
If you're going to splurge out, for not much more than the price of an
anonymous blend like Johnnie Walker you could get a proper drink, a
single malt.
There are more than 200 individual malts to sample; working your way
through each of them is an arduous task, but something I've set my
mind to and just have to get on with.
Different regions have their fans; I go for the heavily peated and
sea-scented Islay South-Coasters - Laphroaig http://www.laphroaig.com/
, Lagavulin http://www.islaywhiskysociety.com/lagavulin/ and Ardbeg
http://www.ardbeg.com/ , though since someone said recently that the
taste is reminiscent of kippers I've not felt quite the same about
them. I also discovered the Orkney malts this summer - Scarpa - no
longer produced, but given the time scale still in the shops - and the
really superior Highland Park. Other folk like the classic Speysiders
such as The Macallan, Glenfiddich, and Glenlivet. BTW, I believe the
product can't actually be called Whiskey unless it's double-distilled
and at least 8 years old.
We had a bottle of Laphraoig on my birthday (not all of it, but you
know what I mean) which cost 17.50GBP - hardly more than a bottle of a
blend and I'm sure even cheaper in the US.
>
>What's the best way to drink 12-year-old Scotch?
12 is a decent age, but 18 or 21 year old impressions aren't too hard
to find. Older than that and it's silly money. I've never had the
chance to judge, but my understanding is that there's a maximum period
beyond which the actual quality doesn't improve, you're just paying
for the rarity value. This is probably true of the drams available at
the http://www.lochsidehotel.co.uk/ on Islay, where the whiskey list
includes a couple at four figure prices a shot (I make that around
$1900). Last time I was there the barmaid told me they don't sell
these that rarely either, but it's always to yuppie kids showing off
or to Japanese tourists.
>I've heard
>of Scotch and water and Scotch and soda, but I suspect the
>best way might be to sip it straight but slowly. Especially
>at about US$30 for 0.75 liter, slowly sounds like it has a
>lot going for it.
Now, connoisseurs say just with plain water. They frown heavily on
ice, but that's what I like - for my taste the ice (not tons, but a
couple of cubes in a single shot) brings out the flavour and I like
the way the drink starts strong and slowly dilutes. The cognoscenti
say ice chills the essential flavour vapours, while water dilutes the
alcohol kick allowing the full taste to come through (so not straight
and slowly, either). Please don't put soda in a decent Scotch - you
might as well drink 5 year old, single-distilled Bourbon.
DC, posting from alt.usage.english - apologies to people on
soc.culture.scots whose grannies are busily sucking eggs.
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
> >Lately, in watching "Mash" reruns, I've been impressed by
> >the esteem the actors hold for "12-year-old Scotch". ("Not
> >enough 'o's in 'smooth' to describe it.") So one of these
> >days I'm going to splurge and get a bottle of Johnny Walker
> >Black Label to see if it's really that good.
>
>
> If you're going to splurge out, for not much more than the price of
an
> anonymous blend like Johnnie Walker you could get a proper drink, a
> single malt.
...
He's right, Bob. I have a poor sense of smell and can't tell a Merlot
from a Cabernet, but the first time I tasted a single malt, I could
tell I liked it better than a blend. (For some reason it was a direct
comparison.) And the single malt was Glenfiddich, which some
connoisseurs consider the McDonald's of whisky. (In fact, somebody
probably refers to it as "the McDonald".)
Obaue: I was going to say "McWhisky", but using "Mc" as a depreciative
prefix may not work when the subject is a Scottish one.
Obaue2: Usually we see the British complaining that Americans
unnecessarily make verbs phrasal--"start off" or "start out" instead of
just "start"--but I think we Americans use "splurge", as Bob did, not
"splurge out".
--
Jerry Friedman is lucky he hardly drinks.
Don Aitken
wrote:
>On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 18:16:04 +0000, Django Cat <nos...@please.com>
>wrote:
>
>> BTW, I believe the
>>product can't actually be called Whiskey unless it's double-distilled
>>and at least 8 years old.
>
>In Scotland, there's no 'e' in whisky. In England, there's no 'f' in
>whisky. (Scottish joke.)
>
>>DC, posting from alt.usage.english - apologies to people on
>>soc.culture.scots whose grannies are busily sucking eggs.
>
>You carry on, you're a treat to read.
Let me add a recommendation for "Raw Spirit" by Iain Banks - a sort of
travelogue of Scottish distilleries.
--
Don Aitken
Mail to the addresses given in the headers is no longer being
read. To mail me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com".
Django Cat
wrote:
>On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 20:01:39 +0000, James Cameron <m...@privacy.net>
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 18:16:04 +0000, Django Cat <nos...@please.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>> BTW, I believe the
>>>product can't actually be called Whiskey unless it's double-distilled
>>>and at least 8 years old.
>>
>>In Scotland, there's no 'e' in whisky. In England, there's no 'f' in
>>whisky. (Scottish joke.)
>>
>>>DC, posting from alt.usage.english - apologies to people on
>>>soc.culture.scots whose grannies are busily sucking eggs.
>>
>>You carry on, you're a treat to read.
>
>Let me add a recommendation for "Raw Spirit" by Iain Banks - a sort of
>travelogue of Scottish distilleries.
Read it a few months ago, and a source of some of the pearls of wisdom
above. Enjoyed it, and it inspired me to tear up to John O'Groats on
a weekend trip that involved sampling some new malts, but it was a bit
"I'm rich and have lots of nice cars, and here's a bit about whisky".
I've managed to read four of Bank's books somehow this year. I
couldn't put down his first Sci Fi novel. 'Consider Phlebas', though I
was less keen on 'Canal Dreams' Then I read 'Raw Spirit' (factual,
lots of anecdotes and stuff about his friends) at the same time as
'The Bridge', and boy is 'The Bridge' autobiographical (and very
good).
DC
Django Cat
wrote:
>On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 18:16:04 +0000, Django Cat <nos...@please.com>
>wrote:
>
>> BTW, I believe the
>>product can't actually be called Whiskey unless it's double-distilled
>>and at least 8 years old.
>
>In Scotland, there's no 'e' in whisky. In England, there's no 'f' in
>whisky. (Scottish joke.)
Oops. I know Scotch whisky is spelt differently from Irish whiskey,
but can never remember which is witch.
>
>>DC, posting from alt.usage.english - apologies to people on
>>soc.culture.scots whose grannies are busily sucking eggs.
>
>You carry on, you're a treat to read.
Thanks...
Cheers
DC
Django Cat
<jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Django Cat wrote:
>> On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 16:43:12 GMT, Bob Cunningham
>> <exw...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>...
>
>> >Lately, in watching "Mash" reruns, I've been impressed by
>> >the esteem the actors hold for "12-year-old Scotch". ("Not
>> >enough 'o's in 'smooth' to describe it.") So one of these
>> >days I'm going to splurge and get a bottle of Johnny Walker
>> >Black Label to see if it's really that good.
>>
>>
>> If you're going to splurge out, for not much more than the price of
>an
>> anonymous blend like Johnnie Walker you could get a proper drink, a
>> single malt.
>...
>
>He's right, Bob. I have a poor sense of smell and can't tell a Merlot
>from a Cabernet, but the first time I tasted a single malt, I could
>tell I liked it better than a blend. (For some reason it was a direct
>comparison.) And the single malt was Glenfiddich, which some
>connoisseurs consider the McDonald's of whisky.
That's not strictly fair, as Glenfiddich is a very acceptable dram;
http://www.glenfiddich.com/. If I was looking for the 'McDonald's of
whisky' I'd be thinking of generic blends such as Bells (by no means
actively unpleasant, and fine in a cocktail).
The reason people turn their noses up at Glenfiddich is that it's the
malt everybody knows, and the one most likely to be behind the bar
where there's only one malt kept. Surprisingly, this is the case in
the Edinburgh Hilton.
> (In fact, somebody
>probably refers to it as "the McDonald".)
>
Well, in Scotland that's just going to make people think you're
referring to someone called Mc or MacDonald.
>Obaue2: Usually we see the British complaining that Americans
>unnecessarily make verbs phrasal--"start off" or "start out" instead of
>just "start"--but I think we Americans use "splurge", as Bob did, not
>"splurge out".
Really? I've never thought of that as an especially pondial thing,
just part of creative language-making. But if you want to see dynamic
phrasal verb creation watch BrTV cookery programmes featuring
professional chefs:-
"So first you sauté off the broccoli while the pac choi is boiling
down... fry up some mushrooms and steam away some carrots while you
deglaze off the sauce..."
DC
allan connochie
> On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 06:28:34 -0000, "allan connochie"
> <al...@EASYNET.CO.UK> said:
>
> >
> > "Bob Cunningham" <exw...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > news:aj8qq09dv0ep94ubc...@4ax.com...
>
> of Scotch and water and Scotch and soda, but I suspect the
> best way might be to sip it straight but slowly. Especially
> at about US$30 for 0.75 liter, slowly sounds like it has a
> lot going for it.
Depends on the individual I suppose. You do hear people saying that the
best way is the slightest tiny drop of water which supposedly opens up the
aroma etc. I tend to have mine straight.
Allan
>
Mike Lyle
[...]
>
> For a wonderful example Scottish Standard English, have a listen to
> Fiona Ritchie, hostess of the Celtic music program "The Thistle and
> Shamrock" on National Public Radio. I'd as soon listen to her
speak
> as to the music.
On SSE, don't forget Eddie Mair, who presents Radio 4's _P.M._ at
five o'clock; though he's toned down a bit over the years. And Helen
March, of the _Open Country_ programme, stirs longings in me which
come straight from the primeval swamp.
Mike.
Mike Lyle
[...]
> Lately, in watching "Mash" reruns, I've been impressed by
> the esteem the actors hold for "12-year-old Scotch". ("Not
> enough 'o's in 'smooth' to describe it.") So one of these
> days I'm going to splurge and get a bottle of Johnny Walker
> Black Label to see if it's really that good.
>
> What's the best way to drink 12-year-old Scotch? I've heard
> of Scotch and water and Scotch and soda, but I suspect the
> best way might be to sip it straight but slowly. Especially
> at about US$30 for 0.75 liter, slowly sounds like it has a
> lot going for it.
With just enough very good water to release the flavours: no more
than fifty-fifty. For a nice easy quiet malt, try Glenmorangie or
Glenlivet. For a startlingly eccentric experience, brace yourself for
Laphroiag.
The word "Scotch" does seem to have been an English contraction --
the Scottis(h) one was "Scots", of course -- but it was good enough
for Burns and Walter Scott. I wonder if it was originally local or
regional, and even maybe more genuinely Scottish than written records
suggest. Canadian Scots, last time I noticed, use "Scotch", as I
think we usually did in Australia, often in "Scotch-Irish"-- my own
thrawn stock.
Mike.
the Omrud
> On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 17:06:00 -0000, the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Two answers to that:
> >either: the Real Alternative plays Real streams without all that
> >appalling rubbish which the er, real Real insists on leaving all over
> >your PC:
> >http://fileforum.betanews.com/detail/1054136293/1
> >or: Net Transport will download the data from the stream so that you
> >can listen again, later, without any jerks.
> >http://www.xi-soft.com/default.htm, although be very careful to stop
> >it running completely when you are not using it as it loves to take
> >over all downloads from the Internet.
>
> Thanks for the tip. I'm considering adding Real Alternative to my media
> plug-ins. I've got RealPlayer, Microsoft Media Player, Quick Time Player,
> DivX Player, and Music Match Jukebox. What's one more?
Ah, but there's no need for one more. You can expunge every trace of
the ghastly RealPlayer if you install Real Alternative. I have.
--
David
=====
replace the first component of address
with the definite article.
Matti Lamprhey
>
> I've never particularly noticed Helen Marsh although I must have
> heard her, but you should check out Charlotte Green, who can be heard
> reading the news, the shipping forecast, and (more excitingly)
> reading naughty clips on The News Quiz and giggling at them
> endearingly.
CG has been on sick leave for some months, but your post is timely
because she was back at work yesterday.
Matti
Bob Cunningham
O'Leathlobhair) said:
[...]
> But if it is restricted to England then I would prefer
> English English. I sense a reluctance among many
> non-British English speakers to use this term.
Five years or so ago when I wrote "English English" in
alt.usage.english there were some highly indignant responses
from Englandish posters. They thought it was ridiculous.
Apparently to them "English" was the language of England and
was the one variety of English that didn't need a qualifier.
I referred them to David Crystal's _Cambridge Encyclopedia
of the English Language_, in which a long list of varieties
of English is given, one of which is "English English".
He has (on page 111) a category British English, under which
are BBC English, English English, Scottish English, Scots,
Norn, Welsh English, Ulster Scots, Hiberno-English etc.
My understanding is that his inclusion of Norn under British
English is an error, since Norn is more closely related to
Scandinavian languages than to English. (See
http://www.orkneyjar.com/orkney/norn.htm .)
About his "etc": He has it following every one of the
subcategory lists. It seems to indicate that in every main
category there are other, lesser subcategories that could be
mentioned but have not been.
the Omrud
At least - I think I heard her last weekend. I believe she had to be
removed from around a burst appendix.
the Omrud
> On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 14:08:52 -0000, the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >MacHamish typed thus:
> >
> >> I'll try to find those program(mes). I think they are streamed on the
> >> Internet, which is a really nice feature of BBC Radio. I'm especially
> >> intrigued by you comment about Helen March. I assume those primeval swamp
> >> longings have something to do with our innate biological urge to perpetuate
> >> the species.
> >
> >You can get most of them from Listen Again, where they are available
> >for 7 days from transmission:
> >http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/progs/listenagain.shtml
> >
> >I've never particularly noticed Helen Marsh although I must have
> >heard her, but you should check out Charlotte Green, who can be heard
> >reading the news, the shipping forecast, and (more excitingly)
> >reading naughty clips on The News Quiz and giggling at them
> >endearingly.
>
> Alas, there seems to be a problem with the transmissions, or perhaps with my
> computer. When RealPlayer comes up, I get about 5 seconds of sound, and
> then it stops. I'll have to get this problem sorted before I can listen to
> these mellifluous lassies.
Two answers to that:
either: the Real Alternative plays Real streams without all that
appalling rubbish which the er, real Real insists on leaving all over
your PC:
http://fileforum.betanews.com/detail/1054136293/1
or: Net Transport will download the data from the stream so that you
can listen again, later, without any jerks.
http://www.xi-soft.com/default.htm, although be very careful to stop
it running completely when you are not using it as it loves to take
over all downloads from the Internet.
--
Alan Smaill
> Bob Cunningham <exw...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:<lfjpq0pqcbepn59i0...@4ax.com>...
>> Years ago in alt.usage.english, I posted regarding the
>> injustice to the people of England of having the name
>> "English" applied to a wide variety of dialects of their
>> language. I felt that the name "English" should be theirs
>> alone.
>
> I was born here in England and have lived most of my life here. I
> don't feel any such injustice nor do I recall anyone else here ever
> expressing any feeling of injustice. On the contrary, I think we
> rather like the idea that many other countries use our language in the
> same way that we like having Greenwich as the definition of 0 East /
> West.
>
> Is there any English person out there who feels this injustice?
I can't say I've noticed it;
I've certainly never heard anyone French complain about "français"
referring to more than just "le français de France" -- in fact
they are more likely to insist that this is only right and proper.
> I am sometimes irritated by the use of British English to refer to
> things that which would better be called English English. If a
> feature is shared by the English, Scottish and Welsh varieties then it
> can be reasonably called British. But if it is restricted to England
> then I would prefer English English.
That is the sensible way to use the terms, I agree.
> I sense a reluctance among many
> non-British English speakers to use this term.
>
...
> A similar issue applies to Spanish. I have not met any Spaniards who
> object to Latin Americans calling their language Spanish.
>
> Ditto Chinese or French.
>
> Seán O'Leathlóbhair
--
Alan Smaill
the Omrud
> I'll try to find those program(mes). I think they are streamed on the
> Internet, which is a really nice feature of BBC Radio. I'm especially
> intrigued by you comment about Helen March. I assume those primeval swamp
> longings have something to do with our innate biological urge to perpetuate
> the species.
You can get most of them from Listen Again, where they are available
for 7 days from transmission:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/progs/listenagain.shtml
I've never particularly noticed Helen Marsh although I must have
heard her, but you should check out Charlotte Green, who can be heard
reading the news, the shipping forecast, and (more excitingly)
reading naughty clips on The News Quiz and giggling at them
endearingly.
--
Sean O'Leathlobhair
> <sma...@SPAMinf.ed.ac.uk> said:
>
> > Bob Cunningham <exw...@earthlink.net> writes:
>
> > > On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 13:20:03 -0000, "Mike Lyle"
> > > <mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> said:
>
> > > [...]
>
> > >> A frivolous throwaway, that's all: some Scots might perhaps, I
> > >> pretended, have imagined that "English" here meant "English" rather
> > >> than "English".
>
> > > "English" can certainly be ambiguous, and "British" is too
> > > often used when we don't intend to encompass such a large
> > > and diverse population. I suggest that we henceforth say
> > > "Englandish" when we want to refer to the people or the
> > > language of England.
>
> > That's "English English" for the language variant isn't it?
> > As opposed to "British English", "American English" etc...
>
> > "English" is fine for the people, though ...
>
> > (or should I say *nglish)
>
> Years ago in alt.usage.english, I posted regarding the
> injustice to the people of England of having the name
> "English" applied to a wide variety of dialects of their
> language. I felt that the name "English" should be theirs
> alone.
I was born here in England and have lived most of my life here. I
don't feel any such injustice nor do I recall anyone else here ever
expressing any feeling of injustice. On the contrary, I think we
rather like the idea that many other countries use our language in the
same way that we like having Greenwich as the definition of 0 East /
West.
Is there any English person out there who feels this injustice?
I am sometimes irritated by the use of British English to refer to
things that which would better be called English English. If a
feature is shared by the English, Scottish and Welsh varieties then it
can be reasonably called British. But if it is restricted to England
then I would prefer English English. I sense a reluctance among many
non-British English speakers to use this term.
> For the many other languages that are now called English, I
> proposed the term "Angloid". The family of languages under
> that term would include, for example, American Angloid,
> Canadian Angloid, and Australian Angloid.
How many people regard American English or Canadian English as
separate languages? In fact if anyone did then there would be no
problem, they could use simply: American or Canadian. The problem, if
there is one, is because these are not separate languages.
> Unfortunately, many people have formed their impression of
> what the suffix "-oid" means from movies and television, so
> that they think it must connote something grotesque and
> misshapen. But all it means is, according to
> _Merriam-Webster's 11th Collegiate Dictionary_
>
> Main Entry:1-oid
> Function:noun suffix
>
> : something resembling a (specified) object or having
> a (specified) quality *globoid*
I am familiar with the suffix -oid in mathematics e.g. spheroid and
cuboid. I am not aware of any standard meaning. Different authors
may define an Xoid as they wish. But frequently it will be something
that is nearly but not quite an X. The -oids are usually inferior
versions of their oidless relatives. You do not need to watch sci-fi
to regard -oid as a negative suffix.
I find it an ugly name and I would not like it.
> The many varieties of World English resemble the language of
> the English people but are not the same as it, so the suffix
> "-oid" applies very well.
>
> I suppose "Engloid" would be another possibility.
No better.
I vote for calling the language English and my variety English
English. Further qualifiers e.g. Southern English English could be
added when required. I don't even see a problem with the phrase
non-English English when there is a need to address all other
varieties. Maybe it is not perfect but there are more important
problems to solve.
Mike Lyle
> "Daniel Mac an Toisich" <gne...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:65c13b5d.0412...@posting.google.com...
>> gne...@hotmail.com (Daniel Mac an Toisich) wrote in message
> news:<65c13b5d.04113...@posting.google.com>...
>>> Bob Cunningham <exw...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:<lfjpq0pqcbepn59i0...@4ax.com>...
>>>> On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 18:39:00 +0000, Alan Smaill
>>>> <sma...@SPAMinf.ed.ac.uk> said:
>>>
>>>
the
>>> poster can be subenghuman. Get all the leather gear and
everything!
>>
>> One still awaits an answer to ones perfectly fair question.
>> What IS wrong with Enghuman Subenghuman?
>
>
> I, for one, don't understand what it means. It's hardly a fair
> question if the terms used are obscure. And if the purpose is to
> propose a replacement for a language name currently in use, then an
> argument should be made for the new term, as Bob Cunningham did for
> his proposal.
Pretty obvious, really. "English" implies very strongly that the term
belongs par excellence to members of the lish community. And probably
male ones, at that. Since this is clearly discriminatory under United
Kingdom, United States, and European Union law, our water-resistant
colleague has devised a logical and politically inclusive alternative
more in line with today's sensitivities. These lishes have enjoyed
their unchallenged position of power too long.
Mike.
Daniel Mac an Toisich
Alan Smaill
> Daniel Mac an Toisich wrote:
>> gne...@hotmail.com (Daniel Mac an Toisich) wrote in message
>>news:<65c13b5d.04113...@posting.google.com>...
>>
..
>>>What wrong with Enghuman Subenghuman? Saxon can be Enghuman and the
>>>poster can be subenghuman. Get all the leather gear and everything!
>> One still awaits an answer to ones perfectly fair question. What IS
>> wrong with Enghuman Subenghuman?
>
> No one knows what it means.
Surely the coincidence between the English "tosh" and the
Mackintosh/Mac an Tņisich designation of the poster is no accident ...
--
Alan Smaill
Sean O'Leathlobhair
> On 2 Dec 2004 08:21:52 -0800, jwla...@yahoo.com (Sean
> O'Leathlobhair) said:
>
> [...]
>
> > But if it is restricted to England then I would prefer
> > English English. I sense a reluctance among many
> > non-British English speakers to use this term.
>
> Five years or so ago when I wrote "English English" in
> alt.usage.english there were some highly indignant responses
> from Englandish posters. They thought it was ridiculous.
> Apparently to them "English" was the language of England and
> was the one variety of English that didn't need a qualifier.
I was not around here five years ago so I missed that. It surprises
me. So far Alan also fails to feel this injustice and no one has said
that they do. Any more English out there with opinions either way?
I think that overusing the phrase English English may cause confusion
or irritation. For example I would never say: "I speak English
English", I simply say: "I speak English". If someone unfamiliar with
English English comments on my accent or usage then I add: "I am from
England".
But in a linguistic context while discussing varieties of English, it
certainly would be the term I would prefer. I think that British
English is overused. Use both terms but use the appropriate one for
the feature you are discussing.
> I referred them to David Crystal's _Cambridge Encyclopedia
> of the English Language_, in which a long list of varieties
> of English is given, one of which is "English English".
>
> He has (on page 111) a category British English, under which
> are BBC English, English English, Scottish English, Scots,
> Norn, Welsh English, Ulster Scots, Hiberno-English etc.
I failed to find that list in my copy. Certainly it is not on page
111 or nearby but I may have a different edition. In which chapter is
the list? The problem with that book is that once I open it, I get
distracted by lots of other interesting articles.
But if he classes British English as a category of English and English
English as a sub-category of that, then I am happy with that. As I
said before, I don't object to either term, just to their
inappropriate use.
> My understanding is that his inclusion of Norn under British
> English is an error, since Norn is more closely related to
> Scandinavian languages than to English. (See
> http://www.orkneyjar.com/orkney/norn.htm .)
>
> About his "etc": He has it following every one of the
> subcategory lists. It seems to indicate that in every main
> category there are other, lesser subcategories that could be
> mentioned but have not been.
That seems reasonable. It would be rash to claim that any such list
was exhaustive.
Seán O'Leathlóbhair
Raymond S. Wise
news:65c13b5d.0412...@posting.google.com...
I, for one, don't understand what it means. It's hardly a fair question if
the terms used are obscure. And if the purpose is to propose a replacement
for a language name currently in use, then an argument should be made for
the new term, as Bob Cunningham did for his proposal.
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
Bob Cunningham
<carmenl...@yahoo.com> said:
> Daniel Mac an Toisich wrote:
[...]
> > What IS wrong with Enghuman Subenghuman?
> No one knows what it means.
Does anyone care?
Michilín
<sma...@SPAMinf.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>"Carmen L. Abruzzi" <carmenl...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> Daniel Mac an Toisich wrote:
>>> gne...@hotmail.com (Daniel Mac an Toisich) wrote in message
>>>news:<65c13b5d.04113...@posting.google.com>...
>>>
>..
>>>>What wrong with Enghuman Subenghuman? Saxon can be Enghuman and the
>>>>poster can be subenghuman. Get all the leather gear and everything!
>>> One still awaits an answer to ones perfectly fair question. What IS
>>> wrong with Enghuman Subenghuman?
>>
>> No one knows what it means.
>
>Surely the coincidence between the English "tosh" and the
>Mackintosh/Mac an Tòisich designation of the poster is no accident ...
>
>--
>Alan Smaill
>
I believe "tosh" may be a deliberate homonym invented to rhyme with
the Turkish word "bosh", meaning rubbish or nonsense; an apt summary
of your remark above.
. Mac an Tòisich means son of the chief; any resemblance to an English
word being coincidental.
Should you peer beyond the provincially rarified atmosphere of
Edinburgh, you may note that the Irish Prime Minister is always known
as the Taoiseach (Chief); the variant spelling hinting at the
differences between the two languages.
To his credit, Mr. Mac an Toisich writes in excellent Gaelic,
something that most Lowlanders are thankfully not qualified to
pronounce on, although that does not seem to have created any
reluctance to do so to date.
Michilín
Carmen L. Abruzzi
No one knows what it means.
allan connochie
> On 2 Dec 2004 08:21:52 -0800, jwla...@yahoo.com (Sean
> O'Leathlobhair) said:
>
> [...]
>
> > But if it is restricted to England then I would prefer
> > English English. I sense a reluctance among many
> > non-British English speakers to use this term.
>
> Five years or so ago when I wrote "English English" in
> alt.usage.english there were some highly indignant responses
> from Englandish posters. They thought it was ridiculous.
> Apparently to them "English" was the language of England and
> was the one variety of English that didn't need a qualifier.
>
> I referred them to David Crystal's _Cambridge Encyclopedia
> of the English Language_, in which a long list of varieties
> of English is given, one of which is "English English".
>
> He has (on page 111) a category British English, under which
> are BBC English, English English, Scottish English, Scots,
> Norn, Welsh English, Ulster Scots, Hiberno-English etc.
>
> My understanding is that his inclusion of Norn under British
> English is an error, since Norn is more closely related to
> Scandinavian languages than to English. (See
> http://www.orkneyjar.com/orkney/norn.htm .)
Norn isn't spoken anymore and hasn't been for several centuries AFAIK. What
is spoken in the Northern Isles is regarded as a dialect of Scots heavily
influenced by Norn.
Allan
allan connochie
"Michilín" <mic...@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:41afbf44.6774150@news...
> On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 22:56:12 +0000, Alan Smaill
> <sma...@SPAMinf.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> >"Carmen L. Abruzzi" <carmenl...@yahoo.com> writes:
> >
> >> Daniel Mac an Toisich wrote:
> >>> gne...@hotmail.com (Daniel Mac an Toisich) wrote in message
> >>>news:<65c13b5d.04113...@posting.google.com>...
> >>>
> >..
> >>>>What wrong with Enghuman Subenghuman? Saxon can be Enghuman and the
> >>>>poster can be subenghuman. Get all the leather gear and everything!
> >>> One still awaits an answer to ones perfectly fair question. What IS
> >>> wrong with Enghuman Subenghuman?
> >>
> >> No one knows what it means.
> >
> >Surely the coincidence between the English "tosh" and the
> >
> >--
> >Alan Smaill
> >
>
> I believe "tosh" may be a deliberate homonym invented to rhyme with
> the Turkish word "bosh", meaning rubbish or nonsense; an apt summary
> of your remark above.
>
> word being coincidental.
>
> Should you peer beyond the provincially rarified atmosphere of
> Edinburgh, you may note that the Irish Prime Minister is always known
> as the Taoiseach (Chief); the variant spelling hinting at the
> differences between the two languages.
>
> To his credit, Mr. Mac an Toisich writes in excellent Gaelic,
> something that most Lowlanders are thankfully not qualified to
> pronounce on, although that does not seem to have created any
> reluctance to do so to date.
I don't think Alan was talking about his Gaelic posts though. He made a
joke concerning the word tosh and it must be admitted that 90% of Daniel's
posts written in English are totally incomprehensible and once deciphered
tend to be tosh anyway. He's either the worst writer of English I've ever
come across for a literate person native to this country, or he's trolling.
I suspect the latter.
Allan
>
>
> Michilín
Alan Smaill
> On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 22:56:12 +0000, Alan Smaill
> <sma...@SPAMinf.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>
...
>>Surely the coincidence between the English "tosh" and the
>>Mackintosh/Mac an Tòisich designation of the poster is no accident ...
>>
>>--
>>Alan Smaill
>>
>
> I believe "tosh" may be a deliberate homonym invented to rhyme with
> the Turkish word "bosh", meaning rubbish or nonsense; an apt summary
> of your remark above.
>
> . Mac an Tòisich means son of the chief; any resemblance to an English
> word being coincidental.
Well, obviously;
I refer the auld dumb Mick to Mack's habit of claiming
fantasist Gaelic etymologies himself.
Perhaps I should provide footnotes for the auld and dumb among us?
>
> Michilín
--
Alan Smaill
Bob Cunningham
O'Leathlobhair) said:
[...]
> I think that overusing the phrase English English may
> cause confusion or irritation. For example I would never
> say: "I speak English English", I simply say: "I speak
> English". If someone unfamiliar with English English
> comments on my accent or usage then I add: "I am from
> England".
Some people attempt to be more specific by saying "Southern
English". But Cornwall is in Southern England, and the
speech of the Cornish speaker in the speech archive at the
alt.usage.english Web site (
http://www.alt-usage-english.org/archive/both_cs.wav )
certainly sounds different from the "RP 1" speaker in that
archive (
http://www.alt-usage-english.org/archive/bother8.wav ).
Whatever happened to "Queen's English"? Is the Queen's
speech a good exemplar of the best English English?
Michilín
Highland English, omitted in the list above, also has two distinctive
forms; English spoken by native Gaelic speakers (or who live in
Gaelic-speaking areas) and English spoken by those whose ancestors
were native Gaelic speakers but are now monoglot English speakers..
Michilín
Bob Cunningham
O'Leathlobhair) said:
> Bob Cunningham <exw...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<i4huq0t9mh5b6vg8m...@4ax.com>...
[...]
> > I referred them to David Crystal's _Cambridge Encyclopedia
> > of the English Language_, in which a long list of varieties
> > of English is given, one of which is "English English".
> > He has (on page 111) a category British English, under which
> > are BBC English, English English, Scottish English, Scots,
> > Norn, Welsh English, Ulster Scots, Hiberno-English etc.
> I failed to find that list in my copy.
There has been at least one incident in the past where
someone was unaware that David Crystal has two books with
similar titles: _Cambridge Encyclopedia of Language_ and
_Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language_. The one I
referred to is the latter.
I see now that Amazon has a _Cambridge Encyclopedia of the
English Language Canadian Edition_. I'm curious to know how
that differs from the original book. Amazon doesn't provide
any publisher's comments or reader reviews for that edition.
> Certainly it is not on page 111 or nearby but I may have
> a different edition. In which chapter is the list?
It's in Chapter 7, entitled "World English" (pages 93-115).
The list on page 111 I mentioned is entitled "The Circle of
World English". I would find it quite surprising if it had
been omitted from later editions.
Incidentally, to see if you have a later edition than mine
look on page 138, in a block labeled "Cowboy", for the
phrase
a factory worker who does more than the peace-work
norms set by his union or fellow workers
Also, see http://www.exw6sxq.com/sparky/cowboy/cowboy.gif .
I put that GIF on my Web site at a time when some
alt.usage.english posters seemed unwilling to believe that
David Crystal had written the phrase.
I would expect the lapse to have been corrected in later
editions, if there have been any later editions. I bought
my copy soon after the book was released in 1995, so it's
presumably a first edition.
the Omrud
> Bob Cunningham <exw...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<i4huq0t9mh5b6vg8m...@4ax.com>...
> > On 2 Dec 2004 08:21:52 -0800, jwla...@yahoo.com (Sean
> > O'Leathlobhair) said:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > > But if it is restricted to England then I would prefer
> > > English English. I sense a reluctance among many
> > > non-British English speakers to use this term.
> >
> > Five years or so ago when I wrote "English English" in
> > alt.usage.english there were some highly indignant responses
> > from Englandish posters. They thought it was ridiculous.
> > Apparently to them "English" was the language of England and
> > was the one variety of English that didn't need a qualifier.
>
> I was not around here five years ago so I missed that. It surprises
> me. So far Alan also fails to feel this injustice and no one has said
> that they do. Any more English out there with opinions either way?
I am English even unto the sixth generation (or possibly more - I
haven't researched enough yet) and have used the term "English
English" recently myself. It holds no offence for me.
Michilín
I don't think Mr. Smaill was talking about his Gaelic posts either.
However, Mr. Smaill has seen fit to be roundly offensive to me without
provocation on my part in the past year, so I see no reason to waste
good manners on one who so clearly has not yet found a use for them.
I don't know why Mr. Mac an Toisich either chooses to or is unable to
prevent himself from writing in a convoluted style, but I presume he
has his reasons. I think your assumption that he does so deliberately
may not be accurate, and as someone perhaps a little older than you
and with a little more experience of the world, I am more than willing
to give him elbow room to express himself.
I must say I deplore the habit of assuming that everyone is "wrong" if
they don't fit into the smug mould of self-righteousness and
self-importance that characterises so many who post in this group. A
willingness to look beyond one's narrow viewpoint was ever considered
a characteristic of the "enlightened" Scot; most of whom have fled.
Michilín
Alan Smaill
> Bob Cunningham <exw...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:<i4huq0t9mh5b6vg8m...@4ax.com>...
>> On 2 Dec 2004 08:21:52 -0800, jwla...@yahoo.com (Sean
>> O'Leathlobhair) said:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> > But if it is restricted to England then I would prefer
>> > English English. I sense a reluctance among many
>> > non-British English speakers to use this term.
>>
>> Five years or so ago when I wrote "English English" in
>> alt.usage.english there were some highly indignant responses
>> from Englandish posters. They thought it was ridiculous.
>> Apparently to them "English" was the language of England and
>> was the one variety of English that didn't need a qualifier.
>
> I was not around here five years ago so I missed that. It surprises
> me. So far Alan also fails to feel this injustice and no one has said
> that they do. Any more English out there with opinions either way?
I should say that I am not English, in case anyone gets
the wrong impression; but some of my best friends etc. etc.
--
Alan Smaill
allan connochie
"Michilín" <mic...@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:41b083ed.1963032@news...
How can we tell if he's wrong or not if we can't even figure out what he's
writing? It's not only in this newsgroup either. I've seen totally
incomprehensible posts in other forums. The only time I have figured out
what he was saying he seemed to be writing in a derogatory manner over the
nationality of my wife. I don't agree with everything Alan writes but I
don't believe I've ever seen him express such narrow views. There are four
possibilities as far as I can see
1. One is that he has an intellect far above any other group member and we
simply haven't tuned into his thinking yet. Pretty long odds on that one
though.
2. Another is that he's virtually illiterate, though you say his Gaelic
posts are well written so that seems to count that out.
3. There is a possibility that he has very little knowledge of English
though the words he uses tends to discount that. People with little
knowledge of a language tend to use simpler words.
4. He's a troll taking the piss.
I think number four is by far the most likely. The reason I've come to that
conclusion has nothing to do with my age either. I probably read folk as
well now as I'm ever likely to and don't buy into the old wise man thingy.
One suspects that perhaps you're a wee bit impressed by the fact he writes
Gaelic. Trolls come in all shapes and sizes and no doubt speak all kinds of
languages.
Allan
John Lawler
>jwla...@yahoo.com (Sean O'Leathlobhair) says:
>> Bob Cunningham <exw...@earthlink.net> writes
>[...]
>> > I referred them to David Crystal's _Cambridge Encyclopedia
>> > of the English Language_, in which a long list of varieties
>> > of English is given, one of which is "English English".
>> > He has (on page 111) a category British English, under which
>> > are BBC English, English English, Scottish English, Scots,
>> > Norn, Welsh English, Ulster Scots, Hiberno-English etc.
>> I failed to find that list in my copy.
>There has been at least one incident in the past where
>someone was unaware that David Crystal has two books with
>similar titles: _Cambridge Encyclopedia of Language_ and
>_Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language_. The one I
>referred to is the latter.
>I see now that Amazon has a _Cambridge Encyclopedia of the
>English Language Canadian Edition_. I'm curious to know how
>that differs from the original book. Amazon doesn't provide
>any publisher's comments or reader reviews for that edition.
>> Certainly it is not on page 111 or nearby but I may have
>> a different edition. In which chapter is the list?
>It's in Chapter 7, entitled "World English" (pages 93-115).
>The list on page 111 I mentioned is entitled "The Circle of
>World English". I would find it quite surprising if it had
>been omitted from later editions.
It's on page 111 in the 2nd Edition (Copyright 2003).
>Incidentally, to see if you have a later edition than mine
>look on page 138, in a block labeled "Cowboy", for the
>phrase
> a factory worker who does more than the peace-work
> norms set by his union or fellow workers
>Also, see http://www.exw6sxq.com/sparky/cowboy/cowboy.gif .
>I put that GIF on my Web site at a time when some
>alt.usage.english posters seemed unwilling to believe that
>David Crystal had written the phrase.
>I would expect the lapse to have been corrected in later
>editions, if there have been any later editions. I bought
>my copy soon after the book was released in 1995, so it's
>presumably a first edition.
It's been corrected to 'piece-work' in the 2nd edition.
-John Lawler http://www.umich.edu/~jlawler U Michigan Linguistics Dept
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It is a wise crow that knows which way the camel points" -Terry Pratchett
Michilín
<al...@EASYNET.CO.UK> wrote:
>
>"Michilín" <mic...@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:41b083ed.1963032@news...
>> On Fri, 3 Dec 2004 10:06:50 -0000, "allan connochie"
>> <al...@EASYNET.CO.UK> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Michilín" <mic...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
>news:41afbf44.6774150@news...
>> >> On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 22:56:12 +0000, Alan Smaill
>> >> <sma...@SPAMinf.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >"Carmen L. Abruzzi" <carmenl...@yahoo.com> writes:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Daniel Mac an Toisich wrote:
>> >> >>> gne...@hotmail.com (Daniel Mac an Toisich) wrote in message
>> >> >>>news:<65c13b5d.04113...@posting.google.com>...
>> >> >>>
>> >> >..
>> >> >>>>What wrong with Enghuman Subenghuman? Saxon can be Enghuman and the
>> >> >>>>poster can be subenghuman. Get all the leather gear and
>everything!
>> >> >>> One still awaits an answer to ones perfectly fair question. What
>IS
>> >> >>> wrong with Enghuman Subenghuman?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> No one knows what it means.
>> >> >
>> >> >Surely the coincidence between the English "tosh" and the
>> >> >Mackintosh/Mac an Tòisich designation of the poster is no accident ...
>> >> >
>> >> >--
>> >> >Alan Smaill
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> I believe "tosh" may be a deliberate homonym invented to rhyme with
>> >> the Turkish word "bosh", meaning rubbish or nonsense; an apt summary
>> >> of your remark above.
>> >>
>> >> . Mac an Tòisich means son of the chief; any resemblance to an English
It's not that I'm impressed, it's that being a native Gaelic speaker
and a troll just don't seem to go together.
Michilín
allan connochie
"Michilín" <mic...@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:41b13928.4122708@news...
Well the original word I was going to use was 'blinded' but I thought I'd
soften it to the word 'impressed' instead. By your sentence above I think
the first choice was more appropriate.
Michilín
Sean O'Leathlobhair
Irish. I have tried being Filipino but I am not very convincing.
One reason for choosing a nationality is in order to take offence. So
when anti-Irish sentiments are expressed I am Irish but when there are
anti-English remarks I am English.
This is just in jest; part of the purpose of my flip-flopping between
nationalities is to mock racism.
Seán O'Leathlóbhair
Sean O'Leathlobhair
> On 3 Dec 2004 03:33:33 -0800, jwla...@yahoo.com (Sean
> O'Leathlobhair) said:
>
> > Bob Cunningham <exw...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<i4huq0t9mh5b6vg8m...@4ax.com>...
>
> [...]
>
> > > I referred them to David Crystal's _Cambridge Encyclopedia
> > > of the English Language_, in which a long list of varieties
> > > of English is given, one of which is "English English".
>
> > > He has (on page 111) a category British English, under which
> > > are BBC English, English English, Scottish English, Scots,
> > > Norn, Welsh English, Ulster Scots, Hiberno-English etc.
>
> > I failed to find that list in my copy.
>
> There has been at least one incident in the past where
> someone was unaware that David Crystal has two books with
> similar titles: _Cambridge Encyclopedia of Language_ and
> _Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language_. The one I
> referred to is the latter.
Unfortunately, this is another such incident. Despite knowing of both
books, I managed to take the wrong one of the shelf. My copy of the
correct book appears to be hiding at the moment. I may have leant it
so I will have to try to remember who has it.
> I see now that Amazon has a _Cambridge Encyclopedia of the
> English Language Canadian Edition_. I'm curious to know how
> that differs from the original book. Amazon doesn't provide
> any publisher's comments or reader reviews for that edition.
>
> > Certainly it is not on page 111 or nearby but I may have
> > a different edition. In which chapter is the list?
>
> It's in Chapter 7, entitled "World English" (pages 93-115).
> The list on page 111 I mentioned is entitled "The Circle of
> World English". I would find it quite surprising if it had
> been omitted from later editions.
Now I remember it but I still have to find the book.
> Incidentally, to see if you have a later edition than mine
> look on page 138, in a block labeled "Cowboy", for the
> phrase
>
> a factory worker who does more than the peace-work
> norms set by his union or fellow workers
>
> Also, see http://www.exw6sxq.com/sparky/cowboy/cowboy.gif .
> I put that GIF on my Web site at a time when some
> alt.usage.english posters seemed unwilling to believe that
> David Crystal had written the phrase.
>
> I would expect the lapse to have been corrected in later
> editions, if there have been any later editions. I bought
> my copy soon after the book was released in 1995, so it's
> presumably a first edition.
Even with the correction, that does not seem to match the current use
of the term "Cowboy" here. I would expect a "Cowboy builder" to do a
poor job for a high price and then disappear.
Seán O'Leathlóbhair
Sean O'Leathlobhair
Is Crystal well regarded by professional linguists? If so his books
are a remarkable achievement since they are also easy and enjoyable to
read for the amateur.
This seems to be in contrast to Bryson whose books are also fun and
easy to read but do not seem to be well regarded. I have learnt to
take Bryson's remarks as an indication of something worth looking into
but not strong evidence by themselves.
Seán O'Leathlóbhair
Sean O'Leathlobhair
> On 3 Dec 2004 03:33:33 -0800, jwla...@yahoo.com (Sean
> O'Leathlobhair) said:
>
> [...]
>
> > I think that overusing the phrase English English may
> > cause confusion or irritation. For example I would never
> > say: "I speak English English", I simply say: "I speak
> > English". If someone unfamiliar with English English
> > comments on my accent or usage then I add: "I am from
> > England".
>
> Some people attempt to be more specific by saying "Southern
> English". But Cornwall is in Southern England, and the
> speech of the Cornish speaker in the speech archive at the
> alt.usage.english Web site (
> http://www.alt-usage-english.org/archive/both_cs.wav )
> certainly sounds different from the "RP 1" speaker in that
> archive (
> http://www.alt-usage-english.org/archive/bother8.wav ).
I mentioned Southern English English myself but you snipped it.
Indeed the term is not perfect but I don't think that it is possible
to find a term that is perfect and simple. The Southern / Northern
distinction is useful. There is a tight bunch of isoglosses running
approximately east / west through the middle of the country dividing
the southern and the northern dialects. The vowels in "bath" and
"but" are examples.
What is usually described here as a southern accent covers a large
part of the south of the country. But, as you say, there are
exceptions such as Cornish. So southern English is the English of the
south of England that does not have any other name.
There are plenty of worse uses of "north" and "south". The part of
Ireland that is still controlled by the British is called "Northern
Ireland" and the Republic is commonly called "Southern Ireland". Yet
the northernmost point of the island is in Southern Ireland. Your
country is commonly called "America" yet it is a proper subset of
North America.
> Whatever happened to "Queen's English"? Is the Queen's
speech a good exemplar of the best English English?
At one time many would have said yes. I expect that some still do but
very few. I think that few people today would wish to sound like the
Queen. The phrase "The Queen's English" is mostly used in jest today.
The Queen's dialect does not extend much beyond Buckingham Palace.
Seán O'Leathlóbhair
John Lawler
Sean O'Leathlobhair <jwla...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Is Crystal well regarded by professional linguists? If so his books
>are a remarkable achievement since they are also easy and enjoyable to
>read for the amateur.
Absolutely. He *is* a professional linguist, and he's won a prize
from the Linguistic Society of America for best linguistics book.
And I agree about his books.
>This seems to be in contrast to Bryson whose books are also fun and
>easy to read but do not seem to be well regarded. I have learnt to
>take Bryson's remarks as an indication of something worth looking into
>but not strong evidence by themselves.
I'm very fond of (and respect) Bryson's recent work, especially
"A Short History of Practically Everything". But his earlier
works on English are not up to the standard of Crystal's, and
betray a certain ignorance of facts, and confusion between
fact and opinion about language. Though he *is* a fine writer.
-John Lawler http://www.umich.edu/~jlawler U Michigan Linguistics Dept
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"But do we know how to welcome into our mother tongue the distant echoes
that reverberate in the hollow centers of words? When reading words,
we see them and no longer hear them." -- Gaston Bachelard
Michilín
<al...@EASYNET.CO.UK> wrote:
>
>"Michilín" <mic...@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:41b13928.4122708@news...
>> On Fri, 3 Dec 2004 23:14:49 -0000, "allan connochie"
>> <al...@EASYNET.CO.UK> wrote:
>>
>> >I think number four is by far the most likely. The reason I've come to
>that
>> >conclusion has nothing to do with my age either. I probably read folk as
>> >well now as I'm ever likely to and don't buy into the old wise man
>thingy.
>> >One suspects that perhaps you're a wee bit impressed by the fact he
>writes
>> >Gaelic. Trolls come in all shapes and sizes and no doubt speak all kinds
>of
>> >languages.
>> >
>> >Allan
>>
>> It's not that I'm impressed, it's that being a native Gaelic speaker
>> and a troll just don't seem to go together.
>
>Well the original word I was going to use was 'blinded' but I thought I'd
>soften it to the word 'impressed' instead. By your sentence above I think
>the first choice was more appropriate.
>
I guess I failed to get my point across. I had forgotten that
sensitivity in Lowland Scotland means wiping your child's birthday
cake with your sleeve after you've thrown up all over it.
Why don't you just ask the poster flat out if he is a raving loonie
intead of mumbling around the edges? Is there no longer that robust
tradition in Lowland Scotland of kicking people off their crutches
while screaming with laughter or putting out poisoned liver for the
blind man's dog to teach the old fool to stay indoors and not affrront
decent folk with his problem?
As for not heeding older people, I think that's very clever of you.
It'll be hats off and forelocks tugged when the nouveau gentry struts
through Yetholm.
Michilín