Re: [ New Diaspora Forum ] re: Triumph of Irrationality

[Kevin Saldanha]

I would love to be part of any initiative that promotes a secular, rational education to children in India/Goa which gives them an alternative to the well meaning(?) brainwashing the get at home and at school today.

If Uganda can do it, why can't we?  http://www.ugandahumanistschoolstrust.org/

Kevin
ps. copying some other lists with this response  /ks

On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 6:29 AM, Nagarjuna N <nagarj...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Dear Cornel, Eddie, Tony,
If EVEN you guys also give up and become so pessimistic, who will SAVE us from irrationality and similar disgusting mindsets ?
Come on, have some heart and some pity.
Do liberate us from these shackles of irrationality.
We DO depend on the Diaspora Big Bro's.
After all, you guys do have some residual duties to the motherland and its denizens, dont you ?
Do chin up, stop moaning, share your EXPERTISE and get to work in right earnest.
After all you guys have learnt all the lessons from all the sides of the ponds of the world. do teach us SOMETHING.
Fund a rationality school or some such ventures. All Ivy Leagues ex staff are now welcome in India.
Regards,
Nagarjuna

---

From: CORNEL DACOSTA <cor...@btinternet.com>
To: NewDi...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 11:04:26 AM
Subject: Re: [ New Diaspora Forum ] re: Triumph of Irrationality

Hi Eddie  I have been trying to figure out the mind-set of India if there is such a thing. I am coming round to the view that both Hindu and Muslim India are shackled by the age old caste structure that has entraped people from the sub-continent to see things in a particular way and no other. I am coming round to the view that Indians need to remove the shacles of caste before they can be freed to think for themselves. It is a bit like Marx saying you have nothing to loose but your chains.   Truly, the chaos of India is absolutely shocking but what is remarkable perhaps (but I would like Tony's view in particular on this) that once Indians leave the sub continent and especially for the West, a rationality appears fairly quickly. But does it disappear on return to India? Cornel --- On Mon, 14/9/09, Edsa <gdi...@btinternet.com> wrote: From: Edsa <gdi...@btinternet.com> Subject: [ New Diaspora Forum ] re: Triumph of Irrationality To: "New Diaspora" <newdi...@yahoogroups.com> Date: Monday, 14 September, 2009, 7:27 PM   I too was shocked at the tangle of electrical wires. Is there no health and safety legislation in Indian cities, no checks by inspectors? Does nobody care? And mind you, this is the same India that is going for nuclear submarines and an aircraft carrier !! The wonder is that people put up with it or may be there is no designated Dept where they can complain. More philosophically, Indians may not be intrinsically in tune with technology. It seems to have been forced on what is a religion-driven society. Kevin's link on rocket scientists praying to their favourite god or guru was revealing. I saw a similar article in FRONTLINE Volume 22 - Issue 19, Sep 10 - 23, 2005, entitled India is a pseudo-science superpower  by MEERA NANDA (a biotechnologist working in the US) Here is an extract: " I raised the issue of space scientists praying over a satellite launch vehicle. My colleagues treated the news as the routine business of running a laboratory and recounted similar instances. I learnt of yagnas being done in the laboratories of a major university to ward off ghosts; I learnt of jagrans being held on university campuses, presided over by the members of the science faculty. My friends saw nothing particularly objectionable to such compartmentalisatio n between the work you do as a scientist and what you do in the rest of your life outside the laboratory. But what happens when what you do outside directly contradicts and negates all that you know as a scientist, I asked. How do you live with the contradictions of praying to supernatural forces for the safety of a rocket that you have fashioned out of your own hands without invoking anything but natural forces?" ============ ==== About the other pictures posted by Tony, I thought it was an awful waste of human energy for hundreds of thousands of able bodied men swarming reverentially round a stone idol. If only they had utilised this same energy to clean the filthy streets of Bombay, plant trees and build lots of public toilets.!! But I suppose you cannot reason with the irrational. Eddie     Another street scene embellished by electrical art:

--

Samuel Goldwyn  - "I'm willing to admit that I may not always be right, but I am never wrong."

[Kevin Saldanha]

There is hope!

I just got back from the Toronto International Film Festival screening of 'A Man Beyond the Bridge' directed by Laxmikant Shetgaonkar and filmed in Goa in Konkani (thankfully with English subtitles ;-).

The film explores the personal spirituality of a government employed forest ranger (who takes pity on a deranged homeless woman who eventually becomes his companion) compared to the general superstitious trend in the nearby village which relies on the trance induced mutterings of their 'head man' (priest?) to give them God's directions.

I would like to nominate Laxmi for the Goenchem Prize for his ability to portray the materialistic side of religious traditions in his own Hindu community.  I had a chance to meet this dynamic young man after the screening and was impressed by his forthright stand on the issue.

I have been looking forward to starting an online forum for humanist minded Goans who would be interested in promoting rational, secular, critical thinking to youth in Goa today.  The closest I have to finding anything remotely comparable is a Googlegroup called Scientific Temper.

Once we have a sizable online representation, we can consider establishing a Goan chapter of the Rationalist Society of India (Rationalist International, IHEU node, CFI affiliate?) which then will be the vehicle to promote the critical thinking courses in local secular schools.

Kevin

On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 4:25 PM, Edsa <gdi...@btinternet.com> wrote:

 

Dear Cornel, Kevin, Nagajuna, Tony & all:

I too agree with Cornel, Tony and others that India continues to simmer or smoulder as a cauldron of chaos and muddled prioirities. I agree with Tony that any attempt to reform or re-structure a society needs to start with History and Tony has given us an instructive outline - how Hindus were forced into the background for centuries and are now going beserk in their search for international attention.
 I'd suggest three steps in studying a society with a view to reform:

- observe and assess the present situation
- formulate a vision for reform
- develop a strategy to execute and implement the vision.

We are at the first stage and this forum has seen many posts indeed around this general topic.

A handful of Diaspora members can hardly tackle the huge challenges facing the Indian nation. It is up to the major institutions of the country to carry out in-depth studies on the state of the nation and make recommendations. But as as Tony said, the universities, institutes etc don't seem to be up to it. Here in UK, various think-tanks (like Demos, IPPR, RIIA, Civitas, Policy Exchange) are constantly weighing developments and coming up with Reports for the attention of decision makers. In addition, there are lots of reputable pundits & columnists who are busy commenting on every little happening. India has almost nothing of this activity - probably reflecting the absence of an intellectual base, a culture of debate and discussion. Why is this? In my view, the average Indian graduate from the Humanities is not adequately trained for skills at rational analysis and communication and so who will take the lead?.

 

A small Diasporic group could perhaps make a small but significant impact on a community. And this is where Kevin's splendid idea is noteworthy. The Ugandan initiative is wonderful. But we don't have to replicate it blindly. There are also British, Canadian and US Humanist associations - can they help? I am not quite sure what benefits the humanist approach provides - in my view, the focus must be firmly on logical and rational thinking. 
Possible ways to proceed:

------------------------

1)  start a Goan Humanist Group, initially on the Internet to explore and crystallise ideas

  Could you start off, Kevin, with some basic ideas; others can then comment and provide further input

2) consider the possiblity of starting a course on rational thinking at a selected school in Goa.
  Could Kevin and George Pinto of Goa Sudharop explore this idea further?

------------------------

This is not as far fetched as it sounds, For example in April this year, a top British school (Wellington Shcool) hired a mind guru, thinker-in-residence "to teach its pupils how to think" He is to introduce pupils to new and effective ways of thinking. The headmaster said: "Rote learning is not enough. Education is about teaching the whole child, including how to think and reason independently."

Can't we rake the cue here?

 

Too long, Goan cybersites and associations have been pre-occupied with pointless notions like identity or collect money to repair the leaky church roofs in Goa. It's time to do something more challenging and of enduring value in the educational field.

Kevin and George, can we have your first thoughts please?

 

Eddie

 

================================

  Hi Cornel. Eddie. Nagarjuna, Kevin and all,
We are discussing a fascinating issue - trying to understand the continuing backwardness of India and its chaotic state. It's obviously to do with the Indian mind - or more specifically with the Hindu mind. The starting point towards understanding and assessing a society or polity is HISTORY.

Hindustan was ruled by Hindu kings/dynasties until about the 11th century CE. These were essentially regional kings; none of them was able to conquer the whole land mass. Life centred round religious beliefs and rituals, first laid down in the Vedas (several centuries BCE) where caste also first appears. Then came the Laws of Manu (c.200 BCE-200 CE) with a string of arbitrary and repressive prescriptions, privileging the Brahmins and Kings and denigrating women. Abstract religious philosophy begins with Sankara (9th century). But there was little movement towards cultural expression or discourse.

Nagarjuna was accusing us of pessimism and 'moaning'. Until we explore and assess the existing situation, how can one suggest guidelines for reform? N also asks the Diaspora to help. How skilled are they? Has he thought of approached Indian government officials? Has he asked why Indian universities, think-tanks or public policy institutes have nothing to say about India's fundamental weaknesses? Why are they so muted, so sub-standard, so incompetent? 
In my view, most institutions need to be upgraded in the art of critical thinking. this forum has witnessed a huge number of posts on these aspects.
This is where Kevin's idea needs to be followed through - having a model school or institute (may be in Goa) that emphasises a humanist approach to learning. Perhaps the British or Canadian ou US humanist organisations can give us ideas. The emphasis must be on logic and rationality.
Kevin nneds full support.
TONY

Cornel wrote:
Hi Nagarjuna
 I am entirely sympathetic to what you say. Looking critically at the situation by outsiders is obviously the first step but be aware that resistance to external ideas is precisely what has kept India so backward and chaotic for so long.
However please also see interspersed comments below.
Cornel

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--

Joan Crawford  - "I, Joan Crawford, I believe in the dollar. Everything I earn, I spend."

[Santosh Helekar]

Kevin,

Thanks for the GP nomination. But regarding the starting of a rationalist group, I have mixed feelings towards groups or forums of like-minded people, except when they are done for organizational purposes. I will elaborate on this on the weekend, but let me just say that a forum should be a place for debates, not patting each other on the back, nor sharing incestuous mutually agreeable opinions and stories .

Cheers,

Santosh

On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 12:08 AM, Kevin Saldanha <veg...@gmail.com> wrote:

There is hope!

I just got back from the Toronto International Film Festival screening of 'A Man Beyond the Bridge' directed by Laxmikant Shetgaonkar and filmed in Goa in Konkani (thankfully with English subtitles ;-).

The film explores the personal spirituality of a government employed forest ranger (who takes pity on a deranged homeless woman who eventually becomes his companion) compared to the general superstitious trend in the nearby village which relies on the trance induced mutterings of their 'head man' (priest?) to give them God's directions.

I would like to nominate Laxmi for the Goenchem Prize for his ability to portray the materialistic side of religious traditions in his own Hindu community.  I had a chance to meet this dynamic young man after the screening and was impressed by his forthright stand on the issue.

I have been looking forward to starting an online forum for humanist minded Goans who would be interested in promoting rational, secular, critical thinking to youth in Goa today.  The closest I have to finding anything remotely comparable is a Googlegroup called Scientific Temper.

Once we have a sizable online representation, we can consider establishing a Goan chapter of the Rationalist Society of India (Rationalist International, IHEU node, CFI affiliate?) which then will be the vehicle to promote the critical thinking courses in local secular schools.

Kevin

--
*****************************************************************
No offense meant. But let the chips fall where they may.
*****************************************************************

[Kevin Saldanha]

Hi Santosh,

the purpose for this (initially online) group will not be for debate or discussion except to put into place the infrastructure to provide a sound education without supernatural influence.  This should also be available to adults who are searching for answers outside the good books.

I would prefer not to get stuck up on names or ideologies but gather like-minded people with similar intentions... which will be threatening to most religious people.  However, it behooves us to provide an alternative to what is now available.  India has a rich tradition of independent, rational thinkers.  In fact, the Humanist Association of Canada (now Humanist Canada) was started by an Indian.  We need to celebrate that tradition and allow those who wish the opportunity to pry themselves free of the superstitious grip.

If you have any ideas in this regard, I would appreciate a message, offlist if necessary.

Kevin

--

Jonathan Swift  - "May you live every day of your life."