Scientific diving

[Haakon Hop]

Hi Martijn:

 

Almost good to hear that somebody are in a worse situation than us (but – really bad, of course – hope we will never get there)!

No student dive in Norway for science, since all universities - except UiT The Arctic University of Norway, Tromsø (who has work-divers) - will not take responsibility for dive operations.

 

H2

 

 

From: Manders, Martijn <M.Ma...@cultureelerfgoed.nl>
Sent: 02 June 2020 11:41
To: Haakon Hop <haako...@npolar.no>; Flinkman Juha <Juha.F...@ymparisto.fi>
Cc: european-scient...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [ESD-List] Black corals e+ special issue

 

Dear all,

 

Reading the conversation below, I just wanted to add some information about the Netherlands. Our situation is more or less the same as that in Norway. Basically it is that way since 1995 when our laws changed. The only exceptions are students. But work related diving (including maritime archaeologists, or biologists) need to oblige the health and safety rules and have a professional A and/or B licence like that in Norway (in the Netherlands these courses were not given for a very long time and people had to go to UK or Norway, now they are given in small quantities (long waiting) and not subsidized (very expensive). On top of that we have a logbook control each two years, need to have 30 (SSE) dives per two years and a practical dive exam each 4 years.  Of course this is all not free and actually very expansive. Easily one pays 2000 euro to maintain the dive licenses each year. One of the biggest issues now is that professionals cannot join up with avocationals. For example, dive groups that have discovered a wreck site are not allowed to join with professionals. Even underwater archaeological courses for sports divers cannot be given buy a professional. Indeed, this has become so expensive and complicated over the years that only a very few (read government mainly) can cover those costs.

 

Cheers, Martijn Manders  

 

[Andrea Rismondo]

Hi, Hakon,
does it mean that - in Uni - structured people can dive? Do they have any constraints in respect to professional (industrial) dive?
Tks
Andrea (IT-AESD-00061)
--

Dr. Andrea Rismondo

SELC Società Cooperativa

Biologia e geologia applicate
Via dell'Elettricità 3/D
30175 Marghera Venezia
Tel 041 5384817
Sito web: http://www.selc.it
E-mail: rism...@selc.it
P.I. 03028980278

--

[Haakon Hop]

Hi Andrea:

 

The UiT The University of Norway, Tromsø, has a team of 3 work-divers, with Class B, Dive Leader and Decompression chamber operator courses, who perform the dives for the University and also on Research Ships according to National regulations.

We at the Norwegian Polar Institute dive with the same surface-supplied equipment as them, and need to conform the same rules (more or less, since we can also dive with Class A).

 

Best

Haakon

[Brydges, Torben]

Dear all,

Ontario, Canada is in a similar situation as Norway well. Our occupational diving is regulated provincially, and while we do have a Canadian Association for Underwater Science (similar to the ESDS and AAUS) each province determines occupational diving laws differently, and divers in the federal government falling under their own rules. Currently in several provinces, all scientific divers are classified as commercial divers, and must follow commercial diver standards (similar to Norway).

In the more restrictive provinces, it has essentially led to a moratorium on scientific diving, with only a few universities conducting authorized dives, and several research programs conducting dives "under the radar", which in my opinion leads to greater risks. 

Torben Brydges

Aquatic Science Technician, Great Lakes Laboratory for Fisheries and Aquatic Sciences

Fisheries and Oceans Canada / Government of Canada

Torben....@dfo-mpo.gc.ca / Tel : 905-336-4986

 

Technicien en sciences aquatiques, Laboratoire des Grands Lacs pour les pêches et les sciences aquatiques

Pêches et Océans Canada / Gouvernement du Canada

Torben....@dfo-mpo.gc.ca / Tél : 905-336-4986

---

From: european-scient...@googlegroups.com [european-scient...@googlegroups.com] on behalf of Haakon Hop [haako...@npolar.no]
Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2020 6:54 AM
To: Manders, Martijn
Cc: european-scient...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [ESD-List] Scientific diving

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "European Scientific Diving list" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to european-scientific-d...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/european-scientific-diving-list/823df0f4396a4e5d9548994a56fd1cf2%40MAUD.npolar.no.

[Flinkman Juha]

Oh Man!

 

This is so sad. With the examples of AAUS in the 1970es and ESDP later, it should be self-evident for any legal/administrative authority to see which way the scientific diving should go. The AAUS could claim far, far lesser accident rate than commercial diving, and thus obtained the self-governing status. Later, using AAUS as an example, we managed the same in Europe – and yet there are deviations within Europe and even EU. But as far as I understand, in most of the countries it works quite well.

 

It’s like you’d not being allowed to use the best tools to do science, just because some authority which doesn’t understand them (the tools) and has no evidence of using them being dangerous, says it is.

 

I just effin’ hate the total lack of logic in that thinking.

 

Cheers, J

 

Lähettäjä: european-scient...@googlegroups.com <european-scient...@googlegroups.com> Puolesta Brydges, Torben
Lähetetty: tiistai 2. kesäkuuta 2020 15.29
Vastaanottaja: Haakon Hop <haako...@npolar.no>; Manders, Martijn <M.Ma...@cultureelerfgoed.nl>
Kopio: european-scient...@googlegroups.com
Aihe: [ESD-List] RE: Scientific diving

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/european-scientific-diving-list/A06BC2A348E9BB4699F00C99351C02E1495AB537%40SVONKENMBX02.ENT.dfo-mpo.ca.

[Jouni Leinikki]

Hi All,

If anyone comes up with an idea how ESDP could help in this situation, please come forward. Mostly ESDP can produce statements, expert opinions and other text, but also provide possibly experts of other countries to visit meetings in person. But the locals have the best knowledge of their own legislators and regulators. We can only back them up the best we can.

Jouni

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/european-scientific-diving-list/27ec7d4440b349c9904305e68ae6a928%40ymparisto.fi.

--

Jouni Leinikki

CEO

Alleco Oy

Valtamer Ltd

Web: http://alleco.fi, http://valtamer.com

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Alleco

Veneentekijäntie 4 A

FI-00210 Helsinki

M. +358 45 679 0300

[Manders, Martijn]

The biggest problem lies in the fact that diving is being considered as a dangerous profession that has to be regulated within the countries themselves and not – like many other professions where quality standards can be organised on another level at for example EU level. Besides that, in the Netherlands this is also done by self-regulation by the market/profession. In other words: it is the dive industry that has a large say in what the rules of the game are. In that game, scientific divers do not play in the major league, but somewhere in the third division. Their voices are very weak. One big issue is the acceptance of scuba diving in professional diving. However, on a more positive note: after many years of actual strong fighting to get this scuba diving recognised as a tool for professional diving, I can say that it is now, normally excepted, but you need a Dive certificate A for this. It still costs, but much less than the SSE. Other issues, like joint diving, remain.

 

Cheers, Martijn

[Flinkman Juha]

What is your opinion, could we use the AAUS and ESDP as examples, to prove that academically regulated scientific diving has been, and still is very safe in comparison to commercial diving? In each country we are a minority in comparison to hard hats just like Martijn says, but if we took all the amounted evidence and our excellent track records, and showed them the facts?

 

Wat do you think, could this work?

 

Cheers, J

 

Lähettäjä: european-scient...@googlegroups.com <european-scient...@googlegroups.com> Puolesta Manders, Martijn
Lähetetty: tiistai 2. kesäkuuta 2020 16.43
Vastaanottaja: jouni.l...@alleco.fi; Flinkman Juha <Juha.F...@ymparisto.fi>
Kopio: Brydges, Torben <Torben....@dfo-mpo.gc.ca>; Haakon Hop <haako...@npolar.no>; european-scient...@googlegroups.com
Aihe: RE: [ESD-List] VS: Scientific diving

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/european-scientific-diving-list/889CB95DD46ADE47A3ABA849EF15644DB1CD63B8%40ocwprdms001.ocw.local.

[Ralph-Walter Müller]

Dear All,

in Germany we have the problem with the „Forschungstaucher“ these are the gods of scientific diving,

and as the bible says you don’t want to have more then one god.

CMAS scientific divers and advanced scientific divers are not recognized in Germany, even so the

standards of the ESDP and of the CMAS are the same. 

As Corona already showed there is no united Europe in no ways except for the money.

keep well and fit

Sincerely

Ralph-Walter Müller
Managing director of the
faculty for Energy-, Process-
and Bio-Engineering
Pfaffenwaldring 9
70569 Stuttgart
Germany

Before printing,
think about the Environment
and your responsibilities

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/european-scientific-diving-list/0e89c2f8ac68425498278398be7de762%40ymparisto.fi.

[Manders, Martijn]

I think it is good to be a strong advocate for safe regulations and to have them ready and available for people to read and use within their own country. What ESD maybe could do is to start, restart or continue conversation with the EU, maybe not to set up regulations, but to help to position scientific divers within their own country. I will give it another thought to see what works bests

[Jouni Leinikki]

Yes, occupational diving is not regulated at the EU level, which gives ESDP no legal authority. It can only act as an expert group. How could this be utilized?

[WM]

Could it be of help if the ISO norms working group TC228/WG1 "recreational diving services" would initiate a project for scientific diving standards, based on the current ESDP/CMAS documents? While we are currently busy with rebreather training standards (also there starting off existing standards), there seem to be a number of participants in that working group who would support such a working item in the near future; this includes people who know about the messy situations both in Germany and Italy. Also the ISO working group can fast-track such norms to promote them to EN norms which in Europe have more weight than ISO norms.

Cheers, Wolfgang Mehl

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/european-scientific-diving-list/0e89c2f8ac68425498278398be7de762%40ymparisto.fi.

[Massimo Ponti]

Dear all,

 

to whom it may concern, ESDP is collecting information on national Scientific Diving Committees and rules, including indications on how to dive as a visitor scientist in the European countries.

http://ssd.imbe.fr/-Pages-of-the-national-SD-?lang=en

 

Best regards

Massimo

 

 

Da: european-scient...@googlegroups.com <european-scient...@googlegroups.com> Per conto di Jouni Leinikki
Inviato: martedì 2 giugno 2020 16:15
A: Ralph-Walter Müller <r...@f04.uni-stuttgart.de>
Cc: european-scient...@googlegroups.com; Manders, Martijn <M.Ma...@cultureelerfgoed.nl>; Brydges, Torben <Torben....@dfo-mpo.gc.ca>; Haakon Hop <haako...@npolar.no>; Flinkman Juha <Juha.F...@ymparisto.fi>
Oggetto: Re: [ESD-List] Scientific diving

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/european-scientific-diving-list/CAMf5c1-3eS5_sebHDH0-%3DUuqT%2BdHC8L_LjtwCDXqxCjTVgE3Fg%40mail.gmail.com.

[Jouni Leinikki]

Yes, good, Massimo! 

Please supply the information, if it's not yet done.

[Martin Sayer]

In the early 1990s, scientific diving in the UK was threatened with very similar regulations being considered that would mean only commercial diving, surface-supply etc.  Some of you may remeber Dr Nic Flemming who was very active with our regulators.  Things were not going too well and at one point it looked as though a legal challenge would be the only way of stopping the new regulations.  But eventually, what swayed the regulators was our safety record.  As a group, we have collated diving statistics for scientific and archaeological diving which, up to that point, had been conducted nearly always with scuba and half-masks.  In addition, the malority of our divers had been taught vis the recreational diving route.

Eventually we were invited to co-write the new regulations with our regulators and managed to retain scuba/half-mask diving as one accepted form.  We also got the regulators to accept prior training and expereince through receational diving.  We have continued to maintain our statistical records of UK diving, and our sector (scientific and archaeological) continues to report very low incident levels.  And, of course, these high safety levels are happening when surface supply etc., is not being used!!

So one possible way the ESDP can help here, is by collating dive records to demonstrate our safety record.  AAUS do this, and once published a safety assessment based on over on million dives - https://www.researchgate.net/publication/233964615_The_incidence_of_decompression_illness_in_10_years_of_scientific_diving

Martin

[Haakon Hop]

Hi again:

 

We have gone the whole route (except court case):

1. Created our own Scientific Diving organization: Norwegian Scientifc Divers
2. Attended ESDP meetings and used this connection as argument - for all it is worth.
3. Suggested ESD and AESD as standards for Norway. No go since the entry level is from sports diving (CMAS **/or PADI Divemaster) before scientific dive training.
4. Written suggestions for Diver Education and Dive Regulations for scientific divers in Norway.
5. Use good track records as argument for diver safety (1 death in 30 years of scientific diving).
6. Met several times with the Health and Safety board in Norway to present our case(s).
7. Given input to all stages of national hearing on diving.
8. Profiled our case in media (newspapers/TV)

 

Result – we have become surface-supplied work-divers, which is considered much safer!!? Entry level is 7 weeks of dive course, starting with mask and snorkel.

This has involved, high cost for surface supplied equipment, lots of time involvement for course upgrades etc., almost no recruitment of new scientific divers, most institutions are out of diving and run around with ROV’s.

But  - in spite of it all, we are still diving!

 

Best

Haakon

 

[Michael Schmid]

Hi Martin,

thanks for explaining the situation in a historical context for the UK.

Just wanted to point out that in Germany we are in the lucky position that scientific diving is already regulated since the 70’s. The rulebook „operation of scientific divers“ is specifically written for institutions (e.g. universities, research institutions) that have scientists diving in a work related environment. We had no fatal or serious accidents since the implementation of these rules and we are not held back by the strict rules of commercial divers that are imposed upon scientists diving in other countries. But we do have the strict division of work related and recreational diving.

cheers

Michael

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Michael K. Schmid
Research Diving Center (Head)

Leibniz Centre for Tropical Marine Research (ZMT)
Fahrenheitstraße 6
D - 28359 Bremen

Tel: +49(0)421 238 00-59
Fax: +49(0)421 238 00-30
email: michael...@leibniz-zmt.de
Internet:
en: https://www.leibniz-zmt.de/en/ScientificDivingCentre
de: http://www.leibniz-zmt.de/Forschungstauchzentrum

Facebook: www.facebook.com/leibniz-zmt.de

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Leibniz-Zentrum für Marine Tropenforschung (ZMT) GmbH
Fahrenheitstraße 6
28359 Bremen
Deutschland
Tel. +49 (0)421 238 00-0
Fax +49 (0)421 238 00-30
www.leibniz-zmt.de

Sitz der Gesellschaft: Bremen
Registergericht: Amtsgericht Bremen
Handelsregister Nr. HRB 25746 HB
Steuer-Nr. 460/145/09737
USt.-IdNr. DE 266278207
Vorsitzende des Aufsichtsrates: Dr. Heide Ahrens
Geschäftsführung: Prof. Dr. Hildegard Westphal, Dr. Nicolas Dittert

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "European Scientific Diving list" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to european-scientific-d...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/european-scientific-diving-list/56d6720c-0b9c-404c-a7e3-0f65539b024c%40googlegroups.com.

[Ralph-Walter Müller]

as You ca see, there is no invitation for scientist in Germany, funny!!!!

Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Ralph-Walter Müller
Akademischer Oberrat
Geschäftsführer der
Fakultät Energie-, Verfahrens-
und Biotechnik

Pfaffenwaldring 9
70569 Stuttgart
0711 685 66473  Tel
0711 685 56473  Fax
0175 208 1404    Mob

Before printing, think about the Environment and your responsibilities

<image001.png>

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/european-scientific-diving-list/AM0PR01MB6385DA2502DDCA34160D9919938B0%40AM0PR01MB6385.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com.

[Michael Schmid]

Your comment makes no sense at all!

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/european-scientific-diving-list/6AD946AE-B332-4B93-B4BE-A9318135D868%40f04.uni-stuttgart.de.

[Ralph-Walter Müller]

definitiv YES!!!

Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Ralph-Walter Müller
Akademischer Oberrat
Geschäftsführer der
Fakultät Energie-, Verfahrens-
und Biotechnik

Pfaffenwaldring 9
70569 Stuttgart
0711 685 66473  Tel
0711 685 56473  Fax
0175 208 1404    Mob

Before printing, think about the Environment and your responsibilities

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/european-scientific-diving-list/e95d5b10-2f5d-58a0-552c-c340995b2753%40wammel.net.

[Carlo BELTRAME]

Martin,

Nice to read you!

Carlo

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/european-scientific-diving-list/889CB95DD46ADE47A3ABA849EF15644DB1CD6584%40ocwprdms001.ocw.local.

[Pedro Neves]

On 02/06/20 15:23, WM wrote:

there seem to be a number of participants in that working group who would support such a working item in the near future; this includes people who know about the messy situations both in Germany and Italy.

Hi Wolfgang:

I wonder who are the members of this working group. Particularly, I'd like to know if there's a PT representative... How can I find out this information?

All the best:

Pedro

[Abigail Moore]

Dear All,

I am British but I live and work in Indonesia. I have been increasingly horrified by this thread.

I am interested to know whether the divers based in Europe (and other countries) are supposed to (at least in theory) obey these incredibly restricting rules when diving in other parts of the world for scientific purposes - and whether there is any legal force in any such rules or recommendations.

Perhaps this issue should be included in your information gathering.

By the way, all sorts of extra regulations are being implemented here. I very much hope it will never get as bad as in many of the countries where colleagues on this list work. But just hoping might not be good enough.

Maybe we need some kind of global scientific divers movement (including snorkellers/free divers as well as SCUBA divers and surface supplied divers) to lobby to protect our freedom to dive (responsibly) for science without undue imposition of (in most cases) inappropriate and counter-productive regulations, and to present rational solutions to decision-makers/legislators word-wide. The ESDP could play a leading role in such a movement, which would likely be welcomed  and supported by universities and institutes around the word.

All the best

Abigail

Dr. Abigail Mary Moore, B.Sc., M.Sc.

Hasanuddin University, Makassar, Indonesia

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/european-scientific-diving-list/CAMf5c18yrZKSBTSqHqfQEYvXPmvYFOAiFTN%3DE9eVGvn2gvk9Cg%40mail.gmail.com.

[Flinkman Juha]

H2,

 

This is really sad reading. A typical example of one being able to take the horse to the water, but not being able to make him drink. Hard hat dive community obviously has Norwegian H&S Board by the balls. It’s good money for commercial diving colleges, more students without having to “market” anything.

 

Good thing you guys are keeping it up despite all that, my hat’s off for that.

 

Cheers, J

 

Lähettäjä: european-scient...@googlegroups.com <european-scient...@googlegroups.com> Puolesta Haakon Hop
Lähetetty: tiistai 2. kesäkuuta 2020 19.16
Vastaanottaja: jouni.l...@alleco.fi; european-scient...@googlegroups.com
Aihe: RE: [ESD-List] Scientific diving

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "European Scientific Diving list" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to european-scientific-d...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/european-scientific-diving-list/67f9be4ed3624aef8dbb2e0749de27bb%40MAUD.npolar.no.

[Haakon Hop]

Thanks – and yes, we dive with hard hats of course!

 

H2

[Haakon Hop]

Hi Abigail etal.

 

When diving in other country, you need to adhere to the regulations in that country (so, if I dive in Indonesia, then your regulations apply – not Norway’s).

However, if you are on a national expeditions in a foreign country, then you need to adhere to the regulations for the expedition (e.g. divers on a Norwegian research expedition in Indonesia – or elsewhere - need to adhere to Norwegian Rules).

But, in addition the expedition needs to apply to the national government (e.g. in Indonesia) for permission to carry out the work, including diving (and may then be presented for local regulations).
The insurance is at the employer level (or private arrangements).

 

If somebody has additional information or corrections, you are welcome to top it up.

 

Best

Haakon

[Karim Ben Mustapha]

Dear Mr Ponti 

Its only the ones related to theEuropean countries?

Karim

---

De: "Massimo Ponti" <massim...@unibo.it>
À: "Jouni Leinikki" <jouni.l...@alleco.fi>, "Ralph-Walter Müller" <r...@f04.uni-stuttgart.de>
Cc: european-scient...@googlegroups.com, "Manders, Martijn" <M.Ma...@cultureelerfgoed.nl>, "Brydges, Torben" <Torben....@dfo-mpo.gc.ca>, "Haakon Hop" <haako...@npolar.no>, "Flinkman Juha" <Juha.F...@ymparisto.fi>
Envoyé: Mardi 2 Juin 2020 16:49:09
Objet: R: [ESD-List] Scientific diving

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/european-scientific-diving-list/AM0PR01MB6385DA2502DDCA34160D9919938B0%40AM0PR01MB6385.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com.

[Broder Merkel]

Dear all

 

It looks like that we have a situation in Europe where some countries have put a law in place regarding diving and Norway seems to be such a case. I feel very sorry for the diving scientists in Norway. Other countries do not have such a law or state regulations.

 

This is luckily the case in Germany. No law about diving education and professional diving as scientists is in place although some persons in German assert this. Regarding education we have two laws in Germany: BBIG (German Vocational Training Act) regulating mainly craft education and HRG (Framework Act for Higher Education) regulating academic education. KFT and “Forschungstaucher” banked in the 1980´s on the BBIG and thus full face mask, rope, and dry suite was a must in consequence. Others like the Scientific Diving Center Freiberg banked in 2001 on HRG. Nowadays the rules in both strands are more or less similar and taking care for  the specific challenges and risk assessment for each single dive.

 

The same is true for scientific work of universities, research facilities and companies: no specific law applies in Germany for diving of scientists, but of course a responsible person is in charge and liable  for setting up occupational safety rules, risk assessment, and quality control.

 

With regard to the situation in Norway my question is how freedom in education and research can be in place under these conditions?

 

Cheers

Broder Merkel

 

 

Prof. Dr. Broder J. Merkel  
https://tu-freiberg.de/sdc/team
Vor dem Meißner Tor 8,  09599 Freiberg
+49-3731-218231   mob. +49-172-235 9286   

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/european-scientific-diving-list/8f3541e90d744fa79a187f549723bd9d%40ymparisto.fi.

[Haakon Hop]

Hi Broder Merkel:

 

We just need to be aware of trip-wires. For years, scientific diving in Norway had no accidents and were not scrutinized by the Health and Safety Board

Diving for science was basically regulated by each institution, which ensured that diving was preformed in a safe manner and according to the general governmental regulations for diving. Controls were up to dive leaders.

Then the trip-wire: 1 fatality per year of scuba divers in Aquaculture operations!

Now, this alerted the Health and Safety board, and they took actions to regulate all diving. As part of that, they made our scientific diving licences (S) invalid, and demand that we are reclassified as work divers (Class A or B).

Freedom in education and research? Has never been linked to scientific diving.

 

Best

Haakon

[Mnemiopsis]

Hi,

you might find useful to have a look at this web page.
In France as in South Africa scientific diving is highly regulated, CAH 1B (France) or Class 4 (South Africa)  are mandatory, and no wor related dives can be conducted without.
best regards
D.

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/european-scientific-diving-list/ff35159ed7394089921f34d3dddad51c%40MAUD.npolar.no.

[Mnemiopsis]

Hi,

you might find useful to have a look at this web page https://www.hse.gov.uk/diving/qualifications/approved-list.pdf

In France as in South Africa scientific diving is highly regulated, CAH 1B (France) or Class 4 (South Africa)  are mandatory, and no wor related dives can be conducted without.
best regards
D.

On 6/4/2020 10:45 AM, Haakon Hop wrote:

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/european-scientific-diving-list/ff35159ed7394089921f34d3dddad51c%40MAUD.npolar.no.

[Lorenzo]

Hi,

I confirm that in France we are super regulated with the scientific diving. 

We have class 0B which is just for super shallow dives and gives the abilitation up to 12 meters depth, then we have class 1B (30 meters) class 2B (50 meters) and class 3B (trimix up to 100 m).

ciao

Lorenzo

---------------------------------------------------
Lorenzo Bramanti
CR1 CNRS
LECOB - Observatoire Oceanologique Banyuls sur mer
1 avenue Pierre Fabre
66650 Banyuls sur mer, France
E-mail: phi...@gmail.com
Tel. +33 04 3019 2496
Mobile: +33 781 927 635
---------------------------------------------------

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/european-scientific-diving-list/d605f4d6-49e9-b8b6-dffc-888c7e310fd9%40gmail.com.

[Brendan Foley]

Hello All -

I am following this discussion with great interest. I'm a transplanted American, now a PI and scientific diver in Sweden. Before coming to Sweden, I worked at Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution (WHOI) for 13 years. And I've worked as a scientific diver since 1991, in industry and academia.

WHOI is an AAUS-affiliated organization. WHOI employs a full-time Diving Safety Officer, and a Diving Control Board oversees that position.

While I was at WHOI, and mostly to accommodate my research, the DSO and DCB approved a shift away from strictly open circuit no deco US Navy Tables diving, which had been the practice since the Institution started diving in the 1940s. We trained on closed circuit rebreathers, Atmospheric Diving Systems, mixed gas, hard hat. In short, WHOI decided to support diving in service to the science our researchers were interested in pursuing. That trend toward embracing advanced diving methods has continued, and my colleagues there are engaged in a variety of new research that otherwise would be impossible to perform.

WHOI and other American academic institutions can do this easily because in the USA, scientific diving is granted an exemption in the Occupational Health and Safety Administration rules. OSHA is like Britain's HSE or Sweden's Arbetesmiljöverket. OSHA recognized that scientific diving is fundamentally different from commercial diving and recreational diving, and should be differently regulated.

What would it take for European nations to pass legislation allowing scientific diving to carve out its own regulatory niche? What would those steps be?

Kind regards,

Brendan

Dr. Brendan Foley
Lund University
Department of Archaeology and Ancient History
Helgonavägen 3, Office A221
SE-223 62 LUND, Sweden

tel: +46.46.222.4947
email: brenda...@ark.lu.se

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/european-scientific-diving-list/877e93c4-d93e-28d8-5925-d28810afd23f%40gmail.com.

[Haakon Hop]

Hi Brandan:

 

Sounds good to dive in at WHOI. I have been diving below sea ice in Arctic Canada from coast-guard research vessel Amundsen, which was comparatively simple to diving in Norway these days.

Part of our problem is small dive groups (typically < 10) at each institution, for instance at the Norwegian Polar Institute, we are 2 divers and I hire in 2 external for scientific expeditions. So, few persons do all functions.

Diving regulations need to be regulated nationally, and I don’ think European nations will pass anything. ESDP has done a great job in maintaining communication and recommendations for standardization of scientific diving in Europe.

But – they cannot regulate, only recommend.

 

Best

Haakon

[Eric Charbonnel]

Ciao Lorenzo,

That’s why you, Italian guy are now in France J

You said super regulated….Maybe even too regulated, now there is a new decree with obligation of recycling every 5 years the commercial diver diploma….it cost 1000 euros = end of many ONG, small organization, volonteers….

Cheers my friend

A plouf !

Eric <°))))><

                  <°))))><

                            <°))))><

_________________________________________

<°))))><    Eric CHARBONNEL><((((°>

Biologiste marin

Responsable scientifique

PARC MARIN DE LA COTE BLEUE - Syndicat mixte

Observatoire - Plage du Rouet. 31, avenue Jean Bart - BP 42

13620 Carry-le-Rouet

Tel : 04 42 45 45 07

charbon...@parcmarincotebleue.fr

www.parcmarincotebleue.fr

http://cotebleuemarine.N2000.fr

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Eric_Charbonnel

 

 

De : european-scient...@googlegroups.com [mailto:european-scient...@googlegroups.com] De la part de Lorenzo
Envoyé : jeudi 4 juin 2020 12:36
À : Mnemiopsis <mnemiops...@gmail.com>
Cc : Haakon Hop <haako...@npolar.no>; Broder Merkel <mer...@geo.tu-freiberg.de>; european-scient...@googlegroups.com
Objet : Re: [ESD-List] Scientific diving

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/european-scientific-diving-list/8CD462EF-E8A1-41C3-BFC7-607DDA8CF97C%40gmail.com.

[Xavier Turon]

Dear friends

As of the 2nd, June, the Spanish Government has published a decree updating the safety regulations for all kinds of diving activities.

Fortunately, scientific diving is recognized as an activity different from professional diving, and is placed mostly under the same safety regulations than recreative diving. This was already our situation before this decree, but we all feared that it would change.

It seems, therefore, that we are among the relatively lucky countries in this respect

Anyone interested in the decree, you can email me (it is in Spanish, though)

All the best

Xavier

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/european-scientific-diving-list/005901d63a76%243e0bf010%24ba23d030%24%40parcmarincotebleue.fr.

-- 
Xavier Turon
Dept. of Marine Ecology
Center for Advanced Studies of Blanes (CEAB, CSIC)
Accés a la Cala S. Francesc 14
17300 Blanes (Girona)
Spain

E-mail: xtu...@ceab.csic.es
Phone: +34 972 336101
Fax: +34 972 337806
http://www.ceab.csic.es/
http://www.ub.edu/beb/english/invertebrates/turon/turon.htm

Libre de virus. www.avast.com

[james true]

Dear all

..another South East Asian interloper...

As far as I am aware, there is no explicit scientific diving legislation anywhere in SEA; the main restrictions being concerned with permissions to undertake the work in the first place.  There have been several attempts by academic consortia in Hong Kong and Thailand to develop some sort of broadly-accepted scientific diver training standards (mostly based around CMAS or BSAC), but they have run foul of institutional reluctance to invest in the infrastructure and lack of buy-in by government agencies.  Most countries in this region do not see an operational difference between scientific and recreational standards for diver training, but are happy to bin scientific diving in with commercial diving if pushed.  In the absence of an explicit policy, the default position for visiting research groups is to use their native protocols.  This has hampered collaboration between Asian and the liability-driven North Atlantic institutions and means that  - for instance, AAUS affiliated research groups must bring an entire team to comply with their own requirements.  The Australian ADAS model, although it has some strong flaws of its own, allows considerably more flexibility for research teams collaborating with overseas partners (although it is not really suitable as an export model because of the insanity of its training restrictions).   

While warm-water diving offers fewer risks than temperate or cold-water diving, my experience is that European agencies do not trust the competency of partner agencies as much as they might.  There seems to be too little scope in the practices described in this thread for work outside their own backyard. There are plenty of institutions in SEA, for instance, who would love to collaborate with ESDP to develop common warm-water scientific diving standards and work towards increased cooperation.  Thailand, Indonesia and the Philippines all have both strong academic communities and extensive recreational dive industries that support data-gathering NGOs , and would likely be receptive to such an initiative.  It would increase the overall safety and scope of scientific diving activity in this region, and also provide an excuse for y'all to find common ground.

just a thought

Dr James True

Faculty of Agricultural Technology

King Mongkut's Institute of Technology Ladkrabang (KMITL)

Chalongkrung Rd., Ladkrabang, Bangkok 10520. THAILAND.

Telephone: (+66) 7428 8528

Mob: (+66) 89 002 4490
Email: jayde...@gmail.com

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "European Scientific Diving list" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to european-scientific-d...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/european-scientific-diving-list/e63a9f036901423b9782d30b1f838a8e%40MAUD.npolar.no.

[Pamela Lim]

Greetings from Malaysia!

Our university, UMT (University Malaysia Terengganu), is in the midst of producing a Diving Operations Manual for our diving unit that covers all aspects of marine research diving and recreational dive training that take place in one of our dive bases on Bidong Island, in Terengganu, Malaysia. The manual covers operational procedures from the moment a diver/trainee signs up for the activity. We hope that the manual will serve as a guideline for dive operators in Malaysia given that we are in the midst of being regulated by a department in the government that has no knowledge of diving whatsoever just because they have inherited the portfolio of dive standards formulation from the standards organisation. We are doing everything we can to prevent them from doing so and as soon as we publish the first manual, the scientific diving one would follow suit. In Malaysia, we have had so many accidents involving divers being hit by boat propellers, boats sinking or going missing, divers killed by fish bombing (in Sabah last year and Feb this year) and for most of the cases, even the police do not know what to do when a search is initiated for missing divers. This prompted us to hold dialogues with relevant government agencies such as the Malaysian navy, coastguards, fire & rescue department, police force, fisheries dept (yes! Fisheries, I tell you!), air force and state tourism directors to come up with an S.O.P. for rescue because each time something happens, it happens to a touring diver or working dive professional and almost always, will affect tourism. Will scientific diving be regulated here? Not yet until something happens from the way things are. As some of you might already know, my country is going through one of the worst periods prior to Covid19, our entire cabinet was hijacked by backdoor politicians and the new cabinet ministers have yet to be legitimised so the change of leaders have affected everything that we have set in motion to self regulate the dive industry. 

Like Wolfgang Mehl, I am also part of the ISO Standards TC228 Working Group 1 for Diving Services and we can propose a scientific diving standard as a new work item for our meeting in the next 2 days. The heads of dive agencies will be present and we have made great advances since the first meeting held in Vienna, Austria in 2008 where we pushed for the inclusion of the Delayed Surface Marker Buoy as a mandatory item to be carried by all divers to be in the syllabus of every dive agency from henceforth, and with it, we saw a dip in the number of deaths and accidents involving boats hitting divers. The exponential growth in recreational diving is happening in Asia and this means, more business-oriented dive operators will operate without a care for safety, which might push governments here in the East to clampdown and regulate at will. In Philippines, Taiwan and Indonesia have their fair share of divers being left behind by their boat, propeller accidents etc. With a standard in place, we might be able to assist authorities to better handle situations as they arise rather than having none and they have to grasp in the dark as to what follows after an incident take place. 

There is another shocking fact that many of you may not know, is that a majority of Asians, especially South East Asians in general, do not know how to swim because it's not a compulsory activity or skill in school. This means, many divers may be certified as scuba divers but they don't have the survival skills of swimming without their gear in place. Another disaster waiting to take place. At our university, we have a swimming program that an aspiring diver has to undergo before they can take up diving. We are taking the cue from you, the European diving community for the standards that you already have in place and the mindset you have in keeping them. I hope this little piece of news from this part of the world keeps us on the edge as we think of how we can contribute to the future progress and safety of the diving community in the name of science!

Yours truly,

Pamela Lim

Technical Advisor of Diving Standards, 

University Malaysia Terengganu

ISO Stds TC228/WG1 for Diving Services

NDL Director of Standards for Asia

NDL Instructor Examiner 6174

NAUI Instructor 49638
BSAC Advanced Instructor 2887 
PADI EFR/OWS Instructor 474329 (Rtd)
Mobile: +6018-2088428 (WhatsApp)

PH Mobile: +63-9162436276

Google Voice:- +1-980-2022098

pum...@gmail.com pummkin pum...@hotmail.com pummk...@yahoo.com 

If I'm not here, I'm underwater...!

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/european-scientific-diving-list/CABAWQwc%3DzNhic0hdW9qthPWVYog5-WYJs7KR%3DhTGekRLXu3MbA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Pedro Neves]

On 09/06/20 18:30, Pamela Lim wrote:
>
> Like Wolfgang Mehl, I am also part of the ISO Standards TC228 Working
> Group 1 for Diving Services and we can propose a scientific diving
> standard as a new work item for our meeting in the next 2 days. The
> heads of dive agencies will be present

Hi all:

I don't know what's the general feeling, but it is my understanding that
scientific diving is a form of occupational diving and not a "diving
service" and has nothing to do with recreational dive agencies. In this
view, I'm not sure how the presence of the "heads of the dive agencies"
would be be beneficial for the scientific diving community or which
standard could be proposed by this Working Group...

Just my 0,02 €


Cheers:

Pedro

[yann fontana]

Hello
the diving service of the biological station of roscoff, in Brittany, is a kind of technical platform made up of 3 divers whose main activity is. this service is equipped with all the equipment to intervene at sea: 2 boats, air compressors / nitrox / rebreathers.
We regularly welcome foreign researchers. All of the dives carried out represent between 500 and 700 dives according to the years, all of them were carried out in accordance with the professional diving regulations in force in France.

Yann Fontana

Le 09/06/2020 à 20:00, Pedro Neves a écrit :

I don't know what's the general feeling, but it is my understanding that scientific diving is a form of occupational diving and not a "diving service" and has nothing to do with recreational dive agencies. In this view, I'm not sure how the presence of the "heads of the dive agencies" would be be beneficial for the scientific diving community or which standard could be proposed by this Working Group...

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Yann Fontana
Equipe Plongée
(C.O.H./Cl2B/ APH-CHSCT) 
Service Mer & Observation
STATION BIOLOGIQUE
Place Georges Teissier 
CS 90074
29688 ROSCOFF CEDEX       
02 98 29 25 65
----------------------------------------------------------------- 

[WM]

Hi Pedro,

I understand your skepticism regarding the participation of "heads of dive agencies", in connection with the terms "recreational diving services", but I think some clarification about how ISO and its European counterpart CEN, work, and some details about TC228 WG1, should help to understand why I believe this working group would be a good place to develop standards for scientific diving.

1. It is true that scientific diving is a form of occupational diving but so are the activities of dive instructors and other professionals in the field of recreational diving. Even in the realm of dive federations where instructors, dive leaders, gas blenders, or dive boat handlers are working on a voluntary basis without financial compensation, those persons are subject to the same criminal and civil liabilities and duty of care as any other professional whose activity could impact well-being or life of people entrusted to them. And many are indeed working under regular contracts, so occupational legislation applies to them. On the other hand students even on a master or PhD program are not necessarily covered through an occupational framework although they may produce good science. Where regulations for occupational diving exist, they are more often than not oriented towards heavy work involving hazards quite different from those most scientific divers would be confronted with, and both educational and operational costs necessary to honor these regulations will impact research budgets and available manpower.

2. Scientific diving is a very broad term since there are so many different scientific disciplines and research topics which involve diving¸including many where any kind of tethered diving would be highly impractical. Many scientists working underwater have acquired their initial diving skills through recreational diving courses, and have developed methods and tools out of that experience; indeed a number of schools for scientific diving, or faculties which include scientific diving in their curriculum, require a recreational diver certificate of adequate level., and that approach is supported by the ESDP/CMAS standards.

3. CMAS scientific diver standards and ESDP standards, while identical in contents, have different and limited audiences: while CMAS is operating world-wide, their scope is CMAS member federations; ESDP instead is a geographically limited network of scientific institutions. Both are currently not politically strong enough to influence national legislation.

4. ISO standards are not laws but rather recommendations; nevertheless ISO standards are sometimes incorporated in or referenced by national laws, as are CEN (European) standards; this is true also for some of the recreational diving standards developed  by ISO TC228/WG1. In Europe, CEN standards are more influential than ISO standards but those developed by TC228 WG1 can and have been adopted by CEN (published as EN ISO) through a mechanism defined by the Vienna agreement (1991) between the two standard bodies.

5. Delegates in an ISO working group are considered experts in the field covered by the current working item, and new working items will indeed cause changes in representation. Moreover, at each step of standard development, the working documents are circulated among a larger audience for comments and change requests which will in turn be discussed in the working group. The circulation of standard drafts is handled by national standard bodies who also designate delegates to the working groups. Other delegates (without voting right) can be designated by so called liaison organizations, regional or international stake holders. CMAS is one of those; it could be worthwhile to inquire if ESDP or EMB (and similar regional bodies outside Europe) could become one. For the sake of working group operation, in WG1 voting right is of minor importance anyway since all participants can speak up and drafts are mostly created by consensus.

6. The CMAS/ESDP standards cannot just be taken and published under the CEN or ISO heading because they do not satisfy formal requirements - there are strict rules about how ISO standards must look like, how they are scrutinized and finally adopted and published, and how long they remain valid before they are considered for revision. However a scientific diving standards project could (and probably would) start with a reformatted version of the current CMAS/ESDP documents as first draft, and a final document does not necessarily deviate much from that draft. In any case an ISO standard does not aim at creating a "new animal" but rather at describing the "current state of the art", such that items and practices considered proven, safe and sound are described in terms which allow consistent application, comparison, and interoperability. For example I describe how the current work on rebreather training standards:came about:
There had been two indipendent sets of rebreather training standards developed by the Rebreather Training Council (RTC, association of diver training organizations) and the Rebreather Education and Safety Association (RESA, association of rebreather manufacturers). Both organizations agreed to harmonize their standards and to supply them as drafts to the ISO working group, and both are currently represented in WG1. While currently only two of the four envisaged standards have been discussed, the resulting documents have received the consent of all delegates including those of RESA and RTC.

7. The denomination of the working group "recreational diving services" has historical reasons, it should not be taken too strictly. So far we developed standards covering standards for generic diver training, instructor training, dive operations, snorkelling guides and excursions, nitrox diving, environmentally sustainable practices in diving, and training for environmental awareness (the latter covers also courses on marine biology and/or ecology, and on impact assessment).
There is no other ISO working group I know of, where standards about scientific diving and diver training could be reasonably accommodated; on the other hand former and current members of the working group have been or are involved in scientific diving, and a few have even been involved in the development of the CMAS/ESDP standards.

I hope to have explained why I believe that a project on scientific diving standards in ISO TC228 WG1 could help to improve the regulatory context under which scientific divers operate.

Cheers,

Wolfgang