science and religion
Vasavada, Kashyap V
Namaste Sastryji and Bob,
I did not mean investigations of higher stages of consciousness are not necessary. I meant they are not necessary for doing scientific experiments and theories. If you want to continue these investigations, surely go ahead. Why should scientists object to any of your investigations? What I was emphasizing all these years was/is that there are specific ways of doing scientific experiments and drawing conclusions. Unless they are done scientists cannot agree with your conclusions.
So that is the reason I am tired of these debates going on between us about materialization and Siddhis without any scientific verification. I would rather do something else. If there are scientific experiments agreeing with your conclusions Iet me know. But about such things written in ancient Hindu scriptures, for which I have respect for understanding spirituality,, we have discussed enough. You are mixing up spirituality and science! I do not accept mythological stories or fraudulent recent demonstrations by Sadhus without scientific investigations. I do not want to participate in such debates. You can discuss with other members for sure and I will read your correspondence for sure. But otherwise, I had enough. Thanks.
Best
kashyap
From: biological-phys...@googlegroups.com <biological-phys...@googlegroups.com>
On Behalf Of BVK Sastry (G-S-Pop)
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2023 1:48 AM
To: Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com; 'Shiva Meucci' <bme...@gmail.com>; 'Sungchul Ji' <sji.co...@gmail.com>; 'Scientific Basis of Consciousness Forum' <scientific-basis-of...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: RE: [External] Re: To all those who say physics is used only for doing evil things!!
Namaste Hal (Bob and Kashyap)
On your response point suggestion to Kashyap :
<Your theological and philosophical discussions with BVK and Bob are truly interesting, fascinating. But they do not depend on your rather silly fixation with materialization. I would suggest: forget about it!>
Thanks for taking note of the ‘interesting nature of the discussion’ which Kashyap has evaluated as ‘Once I get out of these ridiculous discussions on materialization and Siddhis..’.
Kashyap ji’s wisdom seems to ‘block and blackout’ a plausible solution to the ‘goals sought’ by ‘Siddhi- Paranormal Occult Research : For Society or Safety of Nation ! and exploration of a potential alternative for Science/ Scientific basis of Consciousness.
The shift needed is a simple yet critical one :: Periodic Table to Prakruti- Pancha Maha bhoota table:
The Switching of Patanjali Yoga-Sutra Siddhi Research program
Which may be positioned as an extension of MMY – TM(Basic) program on Yoga- Meditation,
From : Modern Science imposed alien model of Matter (No Consciousness) framework
To : Gita-Yoga-Science NATIVE FRAMEWORK CONSCIOUS MATTER (Prakruti).
I want to supplement that this observation by thetime line and monetary driving ‘interest (of Powerful nations) in exploring Patanjali Yoga- sutra: for Occult/ Siddhis’ for Militarization of Mystic / Eastern Mystic).
This ‘interest’ can be tracked in one such link: ‘U.S. and Soviet spooks studied paranormal powers to find a Cold War advantage - Scientific American Blog Network –
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/news-blog/us-and-soviet-spooks-studied-parano-2008-10-29/
[ Report copy at CIA FOIA Full Document Viewer (wired.com) https://www.wired.com/images_blogs/dangerroom/files/SovParapsych.pdf ]
Paranormal beliefs and cognitive function: A systematic review and assessment of study quality across four decades of research - PubMed (nih.gov) https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35507572/
It is a STATESMEN Recognition of the importance and research in this area of ‘SIDDHI’ for NATIONAL SECURITY / Health, Wellness and Public Health for Peace initiatives.
It is also a recognition of the Resource consuming ‘SCIENTISTS Folly’ who discarded the native right model- mensura in the source text to initiate right kind of research.
Statesmen does not dictate RESEARCH Team on choice of Science framework or Scientists understanding of the resource’s to be used for deliverables.
I place the observation of Larry Greenemeier dated - on October 29, 2008, for convenience of quick reference- reading :
The Defence Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) is well known for pushing the boundaries of science and technology in search of ways to give the U.S. military an edge—robotic pack animals, self-navigating vehicles and plant-based jet fuel, to name a few. Less well known is the agency's Cold War-era investigation into how paranormal phenomena like extrasensory perception might be used by the U.S. to get a leg up on the former Soviet Union and, perhaps more importantly, by the USSR against the United States.
Working with Washington, D.C., think tank RAND Corporation, DARPA determined that paranormal research by the Soviets focused on physical science, engineering and quantifiable results, whereas their U.S. counterparts tended to be psychologists looking instead to explore the human mind. The bottom line, according to a 1973 DARPA-commissioned study entitled "Paranormal Phenomena": "the U.S. has failed to significantly advance our understanding of paranormal phenomena."
As Halloween approaches, the report serves as a reminder of our fascination with paranormal forces (for more on this, visit Sciam.com's "Science of the Occult" in-depth report). The authors were worried that the Soviets might win the race to use the supernatural to its advantage much as they had threatened to win the space race decades earlier when they launched Sputnik. "If paranormal phenomena exist," RAND analysts P. T. Van Dyke and Mario L. Juncosa concluded, "the thrust of Soviet research appears more likely to lead to explanation, control and application than [does] U.S. research."
The authors acknowledge that the study was limited, because it was based on but a sampling of works available at the time. Among them: a decade of abstracts from the parapsychology section of Psychological Abstracts, a print version of the PsycINFO abstract database of psychological literature. They knew even less about Soviet efforts, they admitted, noting that their conclusions on that front were based on a "somewhat impressionistic" sample and "some not always reliable and frequently imprecise reports of Western visitors to the Soviet Union."
Soviet research on telepathy dates from the early 1920s when a program was established at the Institute for Brain Research at Leningrad State University. The Soviets appear to have been fascinated with telepathy, which they called "biological communication," as a ship-to-shore way of communicating with submarines without using electronic equipment. They also considered training their cosmonauts to develop and use precognitive abilities to "foresee and to avoid accidents in space."
It seems the Soviets also were quite taken with the possibility of psychokinesis (using mental imagery to move objects) as a way of "disrupting the electrical systems associated with an ICBM's [intercontinental ballistic missile] guidance program."
The Soviets were more inclined than American scientists to believe that paranormal phenomena might be the result of "bioenergetics," or the energy given off by the metabolic processes of living things. This theory stated that people exuded "bioplasma," (a theoretical energy field) that, under certain conditions, was capable of emitting charged coherent radiation beyond the body surface in the form of electrons and possibly protons.
Although the Soviets did not reach a consensus on the existence of bioplasma, RAND concluded, "the very pursuit of this theory indicates that Soviet parapsychologists were attempting to explain alleged paranormal phenomena with a greater degree of specificity than their Western counterparts."
(Images courtesy of iStockphoto; Copyright: Duncan Walker and RAND Corp.)
Regards
BVK Sastry
From:
biological-phys...@googlegroups.com [mailto:biological-phys...@googlegroups.com]
On Behalf Of Hal Cox
Sent: 18 August 2023 04:04
To: Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com; Shiva Meucci; Sungchul Ji
Subject: Re: [External] Re: To all those who say physics is used only for doing evil things!!
Thanks Kashyap,
I am much puzzled on how to evaluate Dean’s recent work we discussed.
I look forward to your assessments.
Your theological and philosophical discussions with BVK and Bob are truly interesting, fascinating.
But they do not depend on your rather silly fixation with materialization. I would suggest: forget about it!
Somehow, the challenge of statistics needs to expand to encompass more subfields within physics, and to that end I recently politick’d with you about non-extensive statistics. I hope to come back to that with you and Sung in the near future.
I have found more leads for your consideration of non-extensive statistics in high energy particle physics. Hope to share them with you soon..
Non-extensive statistics are physically important in biology when conservation laws are unavailable, as with growing and shrinking populations of molecules, cells, humans, species, and ecosystems.
For example, they are physically important for biophysically consistent measures of phenomena across scales in for biomedicine and ecology.
BTW, formal multi-scale physics needs to be rolled out in widespread application for biology. It has already had some impact in engineering and systems engineering, I reckon.
Statistics breeds metrology, people inventing statistical tests for topics of interest.
Metrology is important for all scales of scientific investigation, and scale relevant descriptions of information, energy , and entropy are needed.
The natural metrologies, and the metrologies that humans agree for ad hoc engineering and scientific purposes, involve laws of state evolution involving information, energy, and entropy and other state variable of apparent relevance.
Misapplication of the usage of such terms is risky and maybe widespread because scale irrelevant definitions of those terms are obscured by collective ignorance that needs better consideration of statistics, philosophy, etc.
Hal
On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 11:27 AM Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu> wrote:
Dear Hal,
Once I get out of these ridiculous discussions on materialization and Siddhis, I hope to go back to Dean’s papers!!! I have still not understood why it has high sigma values like in high energy physics and yet small effects. Are these equivalent? In medical science some drug which may be only effective 51% of times, is still used!! So do these paranormal small effects require changes in laws of physics which have massive amount of verification such as the internet we are using now?
Best
kashyap
From: biological-phys...@googlegroups.com <biological-phys...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Hal Cox
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 12:20 PM
To: Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com
Cc: sboc-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [External] Re: To all those who say physics is used only for doing evil things!!
Dear Kashyap,
There’s no practical way to address the reports of Sastry and Bob.
I would file them away for future reference, if anything.
On the other hand the data in the meta review is substantive and may be worthy of critical evaluation. And, conceivably, lead to open minded thinking about relevant biophysics.
This data is presumably a superset of the type of data from Dean Radin about which you commented recently vis-a-vis the necessity, I think, of evaluating statistical methodology.
Statistics is a common ground where psychology and physics are meeting!
Hal
Anomalous Cognition: An Umbrella Review of the Meta-Analytic Evidence
On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 2:17 PM Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu> wrote:
Dear Hal,
You are talking about small anomalies (perhaps in psi) and ignoring big howlers in statements by Sastry and Bob about materialization like producing ashes and necklaces and Siddhis like flying by using human consciousness. These latter ones are outrightly against current physics and will need major revision in our understanding of laws of nature. As they say extraordinary claims need extraordinary proofs. Can you address these if you believe these or want to sit on fence?!!!
Best
kashyap
From: biological-phys...@googlegroups.com <biological-phys...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Hal Cox
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 4:56 PM
To: Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [External] Re: To all those who say physics is used only for doing evil things!!
This message was sent from a non-IU address. Please exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments from external sources.
Dear Kashyap,
I hope the injections perform magic for you!
I am glad you don’t want to discuss materialization and similar Siddhi powers. It would be great not to hear from you about them. The topic is a bit tiresome and trivial the way you are obliged to tangle with it.
I’m glad because they are a distraction from discussion anomalous cognition by Tressoldi and Stone, and what physics may be relevant to the anomalies their data and meta-analysis attests to?
Don’t ge me wrong: It’s OK if physics does not address those anomalies, but I don’t understand what objections you may have to them since apparently you have ignored the challenge of evaluating their methods and therefore their data, and so have declined to even attempt to consider their phenomenology within the scope of your physical universe.
If it’s real, physics needs to help explain it. If it’s not real, someone needs prove it!
I don’t want to take your non-evaluation of Tressoldi and Stone as an act of your religious faith, but maybe that’s in your religion, somehow? Something like shut up and computer, or ignore the anomalies behind the psychical curtain.
How did the talk of crisis in physics morph into all those who say physics is used only for doing evil?
There’s a lot of evil being done by psychologists with psychological theory that eclipses bad stuff that physics do and have done. Consider the tools the behaviorists at Stanford invented for the Facebook and Tiktok addiction algorithms that distort billions of minds of youth and others.
Perhaps you are still resonating from the Oppenheimer movie experience. I found it subconsciously more disturbing that I was at first aware.
But considering the effects of media and the internet since circa 2016, driven by the behavioral psychologists and marketeers, their impact is recently much greater than that of the physicists and engineers, even those make automation for war. Robots, drone, swarms.
By the way, I hope if your docs have prescribed physical therapy that it will be interesting and suitably challenging! There’s a lot to learn about the physics of the body, not to mention the mind. You know I’m thinking about Moshe Feldenkrais!
Hal
On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 1:17 PM Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu> wrote:
Dear Hal,
In dreams all kinds of things happen which disappear when you wake up. So natural scientists right fully do not spend much time on what is happening in dreams. On the other hand , things which happen to a person during waking hours will happen most likely tomorrow and most of the things can be verified by hundreds of observers with the help of instruments, So scientists should rightfully consider these latter phenomena in formulating laws of nature. I do not know why religions and some psychologists pay attention to dreams. For judging mental status of a person it may play some role but not in finding laws of universe!!
I have mentioned the big redlines which some people cross in materialization such as ashes and necklace production and siddhis such as flying by consciousness several times. For these things the article you quoted does not seem to be relevant. Which materialization and Siddhis you believe in?
Btw today I personally saw great good use of physics on me! My doctor looking at the fluoroscopy screen, gave me steroid injections to relieve pinching of my nerve. I will find out in few week if this procedure will take care of the problem!
Best
kashyap
From: sboc-...@googlegroups.com <sboc-...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Hal Cox
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 3:18 PM
To: sboc-...@googlegroups.com
Cc: Biological Physics and Meaning <Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com>; Resplendence <resple...@googlegroups.com>; The Peace infrastructure Project <peace-infrastr...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [SBoC-F] Re: [External] Re: Talks of crisis in physics!
Dear Kashyap,
I am happy you are dismissing the parlor tricks and possibilities of materialization because they serve little purpose.
However there is a class of siddhi or exceptional powers reported on the psychical plane of human activity and behavior defined in the dreamworld that is important for collective and individual health and well being.
What is the state of knowledge in that area?
I found a quantitative review and consider it a leading research opportunity to test the bona fides of relevant siddhi powers.
ABSTRACT and links follow,
Skepticism is warrented, but needs a foundation of agreed evaluation methodologies.
I hope we are not reluctant in identifying the problem of metrology, measuring the phenomena of the six conscious states studied by Tressoldi and Storm, and agreeing on shared metrics, independent of advocacy or skepticism?
If that cannot be done, is there any sense in further discussion?
The full ranges of savant skills necessitate discussion.
Anthropology and sociology tell us a lot and leaves us with questions.
What is the depth of inspiration that Ramanujan found?
Frankly, these findings have little relevance to the crisis in physics since evidently no respectable physicists want to align their methodology to discover the biophysical basis of this phenomonology.
And except for questions about the connectomes of savants and their connection to AI and AGI, I think physics is insisting upon being useless in understanding the life sciences, at least from the skeptical perspectives that block useful biophysical investigations.
And, anyway, how does the physicist best investigate the dream space?
Hal
Anomalous Cognition:
An Umbrella Review of the Meta-Analytic Evidence
Patrizio Tressoldi, University of Padova
Lance Storm, University of Adelaide
Abstract:
Objective: The aim of this study was to assess the results of all meta-analy- ses on anomalous cognition conducted between 1989 and 2021 in order to find moder-ators associated with greater effect sizes.
Method: We included all meta-analyses of studies related to anomalous cognition published up to 2021.
Results: Our dataset, accumulated over more than 80 years of investigation, refers to 11 meta-analyses related to six different states of consciousness. The evidence clearly shows that anomalous cognition seems possible and its effects can be enhanced by using a combination of some non-ordinary or altered states of consciousness (e.g., dreaming, ganzfeld, etc.), coupled with free-response procedures, or neurophysiological dependent variables. These conditions facilitate an alternative form of cognition seemingly unconstrained by the known biological characteristics of the sense organs and the brain. Conclusion: The accumulated evidence expands our understanding of the mind-brain relation and the nature of the human mind.
Keywords: anomalous cognition; meta-analysis; free response; forced-choice; physiological responses; psi; ESP
Highlights
• State of consciousness and the type of response are strong moderators of the effect size magnitude.
• A modified state of consciousness with respect to the ordinary state, combined with a conscious free-response protocol, or a normal state of consciousness combined with an unconscious psychophysiological response protocol, are the best positive moderators.
On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 10:12:12 PM UTC+3 Vasavada, Kashyap V wrote:
Joshua,
If you are reading my arguments with Bob and Sastry (read the e-mail I just posted) there is no problem in accepting spirituality in Vedas and other Hindu Scriptures. The problem arises when their philosophical understanding of consciousness requires scientists to accept materialization like producing ashes from human body or air and Siddhis like flying by consciousness without any evidence!!!
I wish there were more biological scientists , biophysicists or neuroscientists on these forums. These fields are advancing very well in universities. Somehow these advances do not show up in these forums!
Best
kashyap
From: 'Yeshua Ben David' via Biological Physics and Meaning <Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 2:55 PM
To: Biological Physics and Meaning <Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [External] Re: Talks of crisis in physics!
This message was sent from a non-IU address. Please exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments from external sources.
It seems to me that the Crisis in Physics has to do more with the quality the physicist as an integral scholar, in terms of his or her Complementary Biological and Philosophical knowledge, and his or her spiritual development.
Compared to that, statistical accuracy in measurement is just a minor technicality.
In that respect Biological Physics and Meaning is the name of our group and it defines its purpose from the beginning.
Physics is just a flower on a tree in the forest.
Joshua 15/08/2023
__________________
The Urantia Book 102:1.1 (1118.4)
“If any man chooses to do the divine will, he shall know the way of truth. It is literally true, “Human things must be known in order to be loved, but divine things must be loved in order to be known.””
On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 2:31:17 PM UTC-4 vasavada wrote:
Dear All who are talking about crisis in physics,
Recently muon magnetic moment has been measured in Fermi lab to 9 significant figures of accuracy. This is where a showdown between theory and experiment is taking place. Instead of crisis we should be thrilled to see the advance in physics. Can any one point to any human activity , scientific or nonscientific, on earth where the debate is going on at the 9th significant place of accuracy?!!!!
Best
kashyap
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