RE: [External] Re: Standing wave memory in resonant systems: Neurophysiological experiments record synchrony and my neural models explain it
Vasavada, Kashyap V
Jo,
No! in physics wave, travelling wave, has a firm meaning. Any vibration, oscillation which goes from one space point to another is called wave. No if and but!! Standing waves are formed by two waves travelling in opposite directions. so if the point at which oscillation is measured is different from the source point it is a wave. Voltage fluctuations (AC in our houses) is a wave with frequency 60 HZ.
BEST
KASHYAP
From: biological-phys...@googlegroups.com <biological-phys...@googlegroups.com>
On Behalf Of Edwards, Jonathan
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2023 9:45 AM
To: Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [External] Re: Standing wave memory in resonant systems: Neurophysiological experiments record synchrony and my neural models explain it
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The term wave is used loosely. But a standing wave has a specific meaning – just look at what all the internet sites say.
Oscillations of potentials in brains show no interference and are not generated by interference.
A true standing wave is the result of interference.
If you want to muddle up physics so that it becomes meaningless, that’s up to you, Chris, but I don’t think it is going to help us solve consciousness. The problem we have at the moment is that muddled usage has spawned a whole range of related theories over a period of fifty years, none of which make any sense if looked at carefully. EEG patterns really have nothing much to do with consciousness. You see them all over the brain coming and going despite the fact that we are continuously conscious. They are clearly at the wrong level.
From:
cmhnunn via Biological Physics and Meaning <Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Friday, 17 February 2023 at 14:29
To: Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com <Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: RE: Standing wave memory in resonant systems: Neurophysiological experiments record synchrony and my neural models explain it
Jo
Not sure that’s the best definition. Waves of any sort, standing, travelling or skipping, are surely those variations in density, position or intensity that can be described by Fourier transformation in terms of (notional or actual) sine wave interference. They can take all sorts of weird and wonderful shapes.
ChrisN
From:
biological-phys...@googlegroups.com <biological-phys...@googlegroups.com>
On Behalf Of Edwards, Jonathan
Sent: 17 February 2023 08:44
To: biological-phys...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Standing wave memory in resonant systems: Neurophysiological experiments record synchrony and my neural models explain it
What I mean by a standing wave is what is meant by physicists as a standing wave. It is a very clear term. It implies alternations at nodes with no alternations at antinodes based on the notional interference of travelling waves with definable propagation velocities in opposite directions. It is what happens in a cello string. It is also used for stationary waves in travelling media like water under a sluice, where again there are nodes and antinodes and definable propagation velocities.
If people are going to invoke terms like resonance then they need to be based on physics. It is no use trying to do neuroscience with half-baked ideas that sound a bit like physics but aren’t.
From:
'Christopher M H Nunn' via Biological Physics and Meaning <Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Friday, 17 February 2023 at 07:53
To: biological-phys...@googlegroups.com <biological-phys...@googlegroups.com>,
biological-phys...@googlegroups.com <biological-phys...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Standing wave memory in resonant systems: Neurophysiological experiments record synchrony and my neural models explain it
Jo,
Depends what you mean by 'standing wave'. CNVs occur, but are usually not seen because of standard EEG time constant usage. Vortex and braid like patternings , like those that occur in waterfalls, happen all the time but are again hard to spot in static EEG recordings.
ChrisN
On 16 February 2023, at 16:07, "Edwards, Jonathan" <jo.ed...@ucl.ac.uk> wrote:
Thanks for the comments, Steve, but, with respect, I stick to what I said. I have been aware of Wolf Singer’s work for some twenty years and all the offshoots of that. EEG Gamma synchrony is not based on standing waves. We need to get the physics right.
None of us has the authority to say others are wrong without arguing the case on the physics. If you can provide reasons why we should consider alternations in potentials in banks of nerves as standing waves fair enough, but ‘standing wave’ is a technical term for something with a propagation velocity and both nodes and antinodes (as in a Chladni plate). Alternations in potentials are not like that.
I listened to your 2017 Tucson video, so I have a reasonably good idea of your approach. It covers some intriguing questions but I don’t think the proposals about conscious events being resonances in neural populations have any sound empirical or theoretical basis. Linking consciousness to synchronised signals has been popular but as far as I can see it cannot make sense and the empirical evidence is not consistently compatible anyway.
We all have our theories. We all have to argue our case.
From:
biological-phys...@googlegroups.com <biological-phys...@googlegroups.com>
on behalf of Grossberg, Stephen <st...@bu.edu>
Date: Thursday, 16 February 2023 at 15:26
To: biological-phys...@googlegroups.com <biological-phys...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: Grossberg, Stephen <st...@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Standing wave memory in resonant systems: Neurophysiological experiments record synchrony and my neural models explain it
Dear Jonathan,
You write below: "my view is that there are no true waves involved in synchronous alternations of potentials in brains. I certainly do not think that there are standing waves..."
You also write: "my understanding from the neuroscience literature is that as yet there are no convincing theories that link oscillations to psychological events in the sense of conscious experienced meanings."
Actually, there is direct neurobiological evidence of all these things, with some of the most interesting experiments coming from the labs of Bob Desimone and Wolf Singer.
In addition, my own neural models predicted various of these phenomena before the data were collected. My Magnum Opus
summarizes these experiments and my predictions and explanations of them.
If you have a Kindle version of my book, search for "synchron". You will find
it discussed in multiple places.
Here are some relevant experimental references to:
STANDING WAVE SYNCHRONY:
Gray, C. M., and Singer, W. (1989). Stimulus-specific neuronal oscillations in orientation columns of cat visual cortex. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 86, 1698-1702.
Gray, G. M., Engel, A. K. Konig, P., and Singer, W. (1992). Synchronization of oscillatory neuronal responses in cat striate cortex: Temporal properties. Visual Neuroscience, 8(4), 337-347.
LINKING SYNCHONOUS OSCILLATIONS TO VISUAL ATTENTION:
Fries, P., Reynolds, J. H., Rorie, A. E., and Desimone, R. (2001). Modulation of oscillatory neuronal synchronization by selective visual attention. Science, 291, 1560-1563.
Engel, A. K. Fries, P., and Singer, W. (2001). Dynamic predictions: Oscillations and synchrony in top-down processing. Nature Reviews Neuroscience, 2, 704-716.
CORTICAL SYNCHRONIZATION AND CONSCIOUS PERCEPTION:
Melloni, L., Molina, C., Pena, M., Torres, D., Singer, W., and Rodriguez, E. (2007). Synchronization of neural activity across cortical areas correlates with conscious perception. The Journal of Neuroscience, 27, 2858-2865.
Here is an early modeling article about this topic. See, in particular, Figure 15:
Grossberg, S. and Somers, D. (1991). Synchronized oscillations during cooperative feature linking in a cortical model of visual perception. Neural Networks, 4, 453-466.
For people who may be interested in how cognitive dynamics interrupt synchrony during cycles of recognition and memory search, the following early article shows how these cognitive events may be probed by event-related potentials, or ERPs:
Banquet, J.P. and Grossberg, S. (1987). Probing cognitive processes through the structure of event-related potentials during learning: An experimental and theoretical analysis. Applied Optics, 26, 4931-4946.
Best,
Steve
From:
biological-phys...@googlegroups.com <biological-phys...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Edwards,
Jonathan <jo.ed...@ucl.ac.uk>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2023 3:55 AM
To: Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com <Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Standing wave memory in resonant systems: Progress over the years in understanding several kinds of brain rhythms
It is interesting to see this discussion of waves re-appearing. As most of the group know, my view is that there are no true waves involved in synchronous alternations of potentials in brains. I certainly do not think that there are standing waves – there are no phenomena with the respective notional wavelengths and antinodes as far as I am aware. (Where are the antinodes, guys?) Moreover, my understanding from the neuroscience literature is that as yet there are no convincing theories that link oscillations to psychological events in the sense of conscious experienced meanings.
A number of workers in the past have contributed to the process of understanding brain function. Lashley is most famous for his ideas of distributed memory but I am not sure he ever produced a model that has endured. Lord Adrian (with whom I once took tea in college) contributed to the basic models we have but again, his wider ideas have been revised. Pribram and Freeman had interesting theories but in practical terms I don’t think anyone in mainstream neuroscience thinks they worked.
From my perspective the central problem with all popular approaches trying to connect neural events to experience is in trying to link cell firing (signal output) to experience rather than input (signal reception). This leads to the mistake of trying to explain events of experience over extended cortical areas rather than individual dendritic trees. As I shall be presenting again in Taormina, the distributed event model is incompatible with any form of physical science we know (including quantum theory).
From:
'Yeshua Ben David' via Biological Physics and Meaning <Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Thursday, 16 February 2023 at 01:12
To: Biological Physics and Meaning <Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Standing wave memory in resonant systems: Progress over the years in understanding several kinds of brain rhythms
⚠ Caution: External sender
Stephen, it seems that this would make a good review of Karl Pribram's work that Paul, Robert, you and I could write together one day. Perhaps, we could start from Karl Lashley and call it something like "The fruits of Lashley's School with emphasis on Pribram and Freeman".
Perhaps we could start on these two documents:
- The Representation and Processing in the Mammalian Cebral Cortex, Karl Lashley (1890-1958)
·
·
- "In 1951 Lashley published a famous paper called “The Problem of Serial Order in Behavior,” in which he pointed out that complex sequential behavior (such as playing a piece on the piano) could not be executed by one response sending a proprioceptive signal back to the brain which would then trigger the next response in the sequence – there simply wasn’t enough time for the neural signals to travel up to the brain and back down. Instead, behavior had to be controlled by a central, hierarchically organized program. This insight has guided the study of motor behavior ever since, and influenced Noam Chomsky’s critique of Skinner’s theory of language and the development of Chomsky’s theory of generative grammar.
Lashley was a pioneer of neuroscience before the term existed, and seeking to understand the connection between the physical structures of the brain and psychological processes of learning, memory, and planning. He eschewed the theoretical perspectives of his time in an attempt to avoid being hampered by a priori assumptions. He is listed as number 61 on the American Psychological Associations list of the 100 most eminent psychologists of the 20th century. "
- The search for the physical basis of memory by CHRIS WOLFGRAM and MEL YIN L. GOLDSTEIN, Bulletin of the Psychonomic Society 1987, 25(1), 65-68
- "This paper reviews, and synthesizes on a highly theoretical level, the major ideas of Lashley, Penfield, Pribram, and others in the area of the physical basis of memory. Wolfgram's conclu sions concerning this matter are that the engram is a molecular code, and that it is not a physi cal trace."
Stephen , It is always a pleasure to explore with you.
On Thursday, February 16, 2023 at 1:52:44 PM UTC+13 steve wrote:
Thanks for summarizing those titles of Karl's.
His heart may have been in the right place.
However, I am not aware of any of Karl's articles that explain specific psychological data as emergent properties of interacting brain mechanisms.
Are you?
If you are, please point to specific explanations of psychological data that Karl has developed.
Thanks!
Best again,
Steve
From: 'Yeshua Ben David' via Biological Physics and Meaning <Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2023 7:21 PM
To: Biological Physics and Meaning <Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Standing wave memory in resonant systems: Progress over the years in understanding several kinds of brain rhythms
Stephen, it seems to me that Karl did delve deeply into psychology and particularly into Freud's understanding of the links between mind, brain and behaviour. In fact, Paul Werbos has done a good deal of research on this area of Karl's work, from he was inspired to coin Back-Propagation in Neural Networks.
- Freud's Project reassessed: https://www.amazon.com/Freuds-Project-reassessed-Karl-Pribram/dp/0091249805
- TRANSCENDING THE MIND/BRAIN PROBLEM
First published: June 1979
- The cognitive revolution and mind/brain issues
Journal Article Database: APA PsycArticles
Pribram, K. H. (1986). The cognitive revolution and mind/brain issues. American Psychologist, 41(5), 507–520. https://doi.org/10.1037/0003-066X.41.5.507
- About Karl Pribram: https://www.the-ins.org/our-ins-family/karl-h-pribram/
- " In 1958-59, Pribram joined the Center for Advanced Study in the Behavioral Sciences at Stanford University in Palo Alto. During his subsequent 30 years at Stanford University (1959-1989), Pribram pioneered the field of neuropsychology (a term that he coined), leading groundbreaking research into the interrelations of the brain, behavior, and the mind."
- Mind, Brain, and Consciousness: The Organization of Competence and Conduct KARL H. PRIBRAM
- J. M. Davidson et al. (eds.), The Psychobiology of Consciousness © Plenum Press, New York 1980
On Thursday, February 16, 2023 at 12:01:57 PM UTC+13 grant.gillett wrote:
Here we have an indeterminacy between causal mechanisms and holistic complexes of interacting waves of neural flow.
From:
biological-phys...@googlegroups.com <biological-phys...@googlegroups.com>
On Behalf Of Grossberg, Stephen
Sent: Thursday, 16 February 2023 9:53 am
To: Biological Physics and Meaning <Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: Grossberg, Stephen <st...@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Standing wave memory in resonant systems: Progress over the years in understanding several kinds of brain rhythms
I agree that Karl Pribram should have been mentioned. He was a highly creative and productive pioneering scientist who I was very glad to have known.
A summary of his ideas about brain as a holographic memory system can be found at:
As with all scientific theories, one needs to ask how many facts does that theory explain.
For me, it has always been important for a theory about the brain to explain how interacting brain mechanisms give rise to emergent properties that we experience as psychological facts.
That is, one needs a linking hypothesis between brain and mind.
Without it, brain mechanisms have no functional significance, and psychological facts have no mechanistic explanation.
I do not believe that Karl's theory provides such a linking hypothesis. That omission was a topic of several of our lively discussions.
Best,
Steve
From: 'Yeshua Ben David' via Biological Physics and Meaning <Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2023 5:33 PM
To: Biological Physics and Meaning <Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Standing wave memory in resonant systems: Progress over the years in understanding several kinds of brain rhythms
Thank you Hal and Stephen, I find this conversation very valuable and on topic towards a better understanding of field-based brain dynamics. I would add to the list of pioneers we need to better understand, Karl Pribram who was a mentor to Walter.
On Thursday, February 16, 2023 at 11:18:56 AM UTC+13 steve wrote:
Dear Hal,
Thanks for mentioning my comment about standing waves. As you noted, the video was recorded when I gave plenary talk at the 2017 Science of Consciousness conference in San Diego on the topic:
Towards Solving the Hard Problem of Consciousness:
The Varieties of Brain Resonances and the Conscious Experiences that they Support
There is a long history of model development that preceded these results.
In particular, I hypothesized in the 1976 article in which I introduced Adaptive Resonance Theory, or ART, that order-preserving limit cycles are important in many brain activities.
The phase "limit cycles" just refers to a sustained oscillation. The phrase "order-preserving" refers to the fact that, if the oscillation takes place across a network of feature-selective cells (i.e., "feature detectors"), then the relative importance of a feature, in the spatial pattern of features across the network, does not change through time. This is crucial for any oscillation that represents featural spatial patterns across time.
Walter Freeman was one of the early neurophysiologists to measure such standing waves, starting in 1972. He did it in the olfactory bulb and cortex. His work was preceded by work of great pioneers like (Lord) Edgar Douglas Adrian and Hans Berger.
For anyone who may be interested in the archival modeling that supports such results, you can download around 560 articles that my colleagues and I published over the past 66 years from my web page sites.bu.edu/steveg.
The Science of Consciousness lecture was given four years before my 2021 Magnum Opus was published:
Conscious Mind, Resonant Brain: How Each Brain Makes a Mind
which reviews a lot more about the mechanisms, functions, and locations in our brains of brain rhythms, including alpha, beta, gamma, delta, and circadian rhythms, as well as the rhythm of slow-wave sleep, that had been discovered in the intervening years.
Best,
Steve
From:
biological-phys...@googlegroups.com <biological-phys...@googlegroups.com>
on behalf of Hal Cox <hkco...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2023 2:42 PM
To: Sungchul Ji <sji.co...@gmail.com>
Cc: Biological Physics and Meaning <Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com>; John Stuart Reid <jo...@sonic-age.com>
Subject: Standing wave memory in resonant systems
Hi Sung,
Steve's presentation (*) on the answer to the hard problem is followed by a short Q&A, and just after 42 minutes he mentions early hypotheses about standing waves in resonant circuits.
That early idea seems to me to have matured into many useful biological accounts, for example as sketched by you and John Stuart Reid with wonderful applications of the geometrization of wave physics in resonant systems. That resonance studies have a deep and multi-faceted connection with memory is amazing.
Hal
(*) Please see Steve's solution in his Keynote lecture at the 2017 Science of Consciousness conference, San Diego (shorter version):
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Vasavada, Kashyap V
Jo,
My arguments are only about physics. I do not know about location of source and detection points in neuroscience case.
For physics, there is an elementary expt. to show waves and resonance in strings. A string is connected to a tuning fork on one side and weights are hung on the other side which give tension and hence velocity of the waves. Velocity = frequency x wavelength always. No k. here the source is tuning fork and standing waves are produced in the string.
About electrical waves the situation is similar. The generators in power company produce alternating voltages/fields at certain frequency and they enter your house wires and move from room to room. These are periodic waves with frequency 60 HZ. The wavelength = velocity/frequency. The web/internet, TV/RADIO signals are also wave packets whether in wires , coaxial cables or air. No difference.
In physics any disturbance, oscillation which travels is called wave even if it is just a quick short pulse and then zero or a periodic vibration. I am surprised why this is controversial.
Best
kashyap
From: biological-phys...@googlegroups.com <biological-phys...@googlegroups.com>
On Behalf Of Edwards, Jonathan
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2023 11:58 AM
To: Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [External] Re: Standing wave memory in resonant systems: Neurophysiological experiments record synchrony and my neural models explain it
The difficulty comes, Kashyap, when the term wave is used for two very different sorts of dynamics – which is what I meant by loosely.
You will surely agree that there are waves that follow the rule:
Propagation velocity = k x wavelength x frequency
And that such waves can show interference and resonance effects.
But the alternating voltage in our houses has no wavelength because it is not a self-propagating oscillation in the same sense. It is an oscillation in an energy - losing process that passively follows an alternating state at the power station. It does not give rise to interference patterns along the wire if it meets another source. Because current propagation is so fast and the process is entirely dissipative you just get an average along the whole wire.
That is what EEG ‘waves’ are like. They are records of the by-product voltage shifts alongside masses of tiny ‘power inverters’ that convert ATP into alternating voltages in individual cells. Some of the cells are synchronised, some of the time, so you get net effects.
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Stanley A. KLEIN
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Vasavada, Kashyap V
STAN,
I agree we must emphasize, not just closely connected but two sides of the same coin. This is one of the problems with the Bohm picture. He thought particles are fundamental and there is a guiding wave, pilot wave associated with it. I think majority of MSP does not agree with that.
Best,
kashyap
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Stanley A. KLEIN
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Vasavada, Kashyap V
Dear Jo,
Sorry! You have to review your HS physics book!! I have taught this stuff in universities for 39 years and you may not have even taken a college physics course! Somehow you have the impression that because wavelength is extremely large, and you may not see a complete cycle in your observation area, it loses its wave character. Whatever wavelength and frequency, a travelling wave is a wave. The voltage/field alternates like displacement in a wave in string and tiny electrons are compelled to move with it. E-m waves and mechanical waves have basically same physics. Of course here the speed is huge. So it looks instantaneous as soon as switch is turned on . But there is nothing instantaneous in physics, not even gravity! Surely the time required for the wave to travel from powerhouse to your house (few miles at most ) is extremely small but there are ways even to measure small time intervals. So again e-m waves are same whether in wires in your house, web-internet, TV , RADIO coaxial cables, other wave guides, fibers or air. Velocities are somewhat different depending on media and modes but wave character does not go away. Look at solutions of Maxwell equations. An electrostatic solution has zero velocity. It cannot travel an inch. Just saying that a static electric field travels from power station to your house is total nonsense. Btw there is a magnetic field also. In a wave electric and magnetic fields induce each other. That is how they travel.
Best
kashyap
From: biological-phys...@googlegroups.com <biological-phys...@googlegroups.com>
On Behalf Of Edwards, Jonathan
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2023 3:44 PM
To: biological-phys...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [External] Re: Standing wave memory in resonant systems: Neurophysiological experiments record synchrony and my neural models explain it
Dear Kashyap,
I admire your mastery of quantum field theories but I do worry that you have forgotten some high school stuff.
This cannot be right:
K:“About electrical waves the situation is similar. The generators in power company produce alternating voltages/fields at certain frequency and they enter your house wires and move from room to room. These are periodic waves with frequency 60 HZ. The wavelength = velocity/frequency.”
There is no wavelength because there are no cyclical dynamics along the wire. In the string and tuning fork case either you have a travelling sine wave or nodes and antinodes. For the voltage in the wires to and from the power station you have neither. The situation is like a string with a man at each end lifting it up and down in opposite directions. The profile is linear with some trivial exponential terms.
I think the propagation velocity of current is in thousands of miles per second anyway, so the whole circuit would be less than a wavelength if there was one but even if the wire went to the moon and back there would never be sinusoidal profiles or antinodes of potential. Nothing to form an interference pattern or resonance. EEG ‘waves’ are like that. They reflect dissipative effects of miniature ‘power inverters’ in each cell converting ATP energy to AC voltage. Again, there is no wavelength because there is no spatial cyclicity, just temporal.
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Vasavada, Kashyap V
Yeshua, Jo
Your rewording is ok. My problem with Jo is that he wants oscillation at one place ( source?) to make a distant place oscillating and does not want to call it a wave if it is too fast. See saw at one place does not make another see saw some distance away oscillating. E-m case is even worse, because time dependent E field generates H field and time dependent H field generates
E field and the two start propagating even in a medium with no charges like vacuum.
Best
kashyap
From: 'Yeshua Ben David' via Biological Physics and Meaning <Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2023 7:47 PM
To: Biological Physics and Meaning <Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [External] Re: Standing wave memory in resonant systems: Neurophysiological experiments record synchrony and my neural models explain it
Kashap, concerning your comment "in physics any disturbance, oscillation which travels is called wave even if it is just a quick short pulse and then zero or a periodic vibration."
I would rewrite it as:
- any disturbance accompanied with an effect that travels through a medium is called a wave and the observable and measurable manifestations are oscillations.
Then, we understand that waves travel through a medium and oscillations, are the observable effect.
However, oscillations can also be observed in association with systems that lack travelling waves, for example:
These simple illustrative examples start to point out intuitively, the distinction between a wave and an oscillation.
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Vasavada, Kashyap V
Yeshua and Jo,
What Yeshua wrote is high school physics. Unfortunately, lot of people on these forums do not know that. I do not know what happens in neuroscience. But I am emphasizing that if the detector is at some distance from source and you detect oscillation at the detector, the only conclusion is that a wave is going from source to detector. In rare cases, ions travel great distance but that is unlikely.
BEST
kashyap
From: 'Yeshua Ben David' via Biological Physics and Meaning <Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2023 7:52 PM
To: Biological Physics and Meaning <Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [External] Re: Standing wave memory in resonant systems: Neurophysiological experiments record synchrony and my neural models explain it
A little bit more formal quoted from: https://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-oscillation-and-vs-wave/
-
Oscillation vs Wave
- Oscillations and waves are two major phenomena discussed in physics. The concepts of waves and oscillations are widely used in many fields and are vital in the understanding of the world. In this article, we are going to discuss what oscillations and waves are, applications of waves and oscillations, the connection between waves and oscillations, their similarities, and finally the difference between waves and oscillations.
- Oscillation
- Oscillations are a type of periodic motion. An oscillation is usually defined as a repetitive variation over time. The oscillation can occur over a middle equilibrium point or between two states. A pendulum is a good example for an oscillatory motion. The oscillations are mostly sinusoidal. An alternating current is also a good example for this. In the simple pendulum, the bob oscillates over the middle equilibrium point. In an alternating current, the electrons oscillate inside the closed circuit over an equilibrium point.
- There are three types of oscillations. The first type is the un-damped oscillations in which the internal energy of the oscillation remains a constant. The second type of oscillations is the damped oscillations. In damped oscillations, the internal energy of the oscillation decreases over time. The third type is the forced oscillations. In forced oscillations, a force is applied on the pendulum in a periodic variation to the pendulum.
- Wave
- A mechanical wave is caused by any turbulence in a medium. Simple examples for mechanical waves are sound, earthquakes, ocean waves. A wave is a method of energy propagation. The energy created in the turbulence is propagated by the waves.
- A sinusoidal wave is a wave which oscillates according to the equation y = A sin (ωt – kx). As the wave propagates through the space, energy it carries is also propagated. This energy causes the particles on its way to oscillate. It can also be interpreted the other way around as the energy is propagated through the oscillation of particles.
- There are two types of progressive waves; namely, longitudinal waves and transverse waves. In a longitudinal wave, the oscillations of particles are parallel to the direction of propagation. This does not mean the particles are moving with the wave. The particles only oscillate about fixed equilibrium point in space. In transverse waves, the oscillation of particles occurs perpendicular to the direction of propagation. Sound waves consist of only longitudinal waves, waves on a string is transverse. The ocean waves are a combination of transverse waves and longitudinal waves.
- What is the difference between Waves and Oscillations?
- Oscillation is a periodic movement of a particle or a system that can cause a wave. A wave is created by an oscillation either mechanically or electromagnetically.
- An oscillation can occur due to a wave too.
- An oscillation is a phenomenon that is localized to a certain region whereas a wave is a phenomenon that travels.
- An oscillation may or may not conserve the internal energy. A wave is created by the emitted energy from an oscillation.
On Saturday, February 18, 2023 at 1:46:38 PM UTC+13 Yeshua Ben David wrote:
Kashap, concerning your comment "in physics any disturbance, oscillation which travels is called wave even if it is just a quick short pulse and then zero or a periodic vibration."
I would rewrite it as:
- any disturbance accompanied with an effect that travels through a medium is called a wave and the observable and measurable manifestations are oscillations.
Then, we understand that waves travel through a medium and oscillations, are the observable effect.
However, oscillations can also be observed in association with systems that lack travelling waves, for example:
These simple illustrative examples start to point out intuitively, the distinction between a wave and an oscillation.
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Vasavada, Kashyap V
Yeshua and Jo,
Yes. But in that case it is clear that wall is vibrating and some wave is going from one pendulum to other. If the whole medium
Is vibrating in neuroscience case then Jo should say that.
Best
kashyap
From: 'Yeshua Ben David' via Biological Physics and Meaning <Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2023 8:21 PM
To: Biological Physics and Meaning <Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [External] Re: Standing wave memory in resonant systems: Neurophysiological experiments record synchrony and my neural models explain it
Kashyap, general speaking, from the point of view of macroscopic systems, your comment is correct to my eyes, ears and mind, it resonates, "See saw at one place does not make another see saw some distance away oscillating", apart from when I think about two clocks (pendulums) attached to the same wall, since they also resonate and eventually synchronize.
The Surprising Secret of Synchronization (min:sec, 4:50) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-_VPRCtiUg&t=8s
On Saturday, February 18, 2023 at 2:11:47 PM UTC+13 Yeshua Ben David wrote:
Grant, I wish that my last post helps clarify your feelings expressed in your comment:
- That is a masterful surview of Freeman, thanks. I find myself cast back on the apparently chaotic but actually hyper-inclusive rhythms and ‘language games’ (Wittgenstein’s meaning) of human life."
Indeed, word games are so distracting, yet, as you very well know, we still need language, and language agreements and conventions.
However, I said before and as you have written so beautifully about Rhythms and The Vibe of The Thing, they speak much louder and clearer, hence:
- The rest is vibrations and rhythms a la Bob Marley: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws6zCW6zXA
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BVK Sastry (G-S-Pop)
Namaste
1. May I seek a neurophysiological explanation of the ‘Standing Wave Memory in resonant systems’ that a good music master provides and a good audience experiences in an orchestra please ? See image below and yoga-science explanation of the same.
[Note: What happens in orchestra is multi-fold intensified in ‘Deep Meditation involving inner sounds’ where ‘Chakaras get activated’ by use of ‘Beeja – mantra sounds’, through yoga- meditation – intervention without need for any external drugs, drinks and play-instruments.
It is ‘activating ‘ inner –aakashic sounds in the subject’s psychic and neural network of brain- spine –body. The ‘resonance of body (Deha) and mind (Manas/ Chitta) of subject could result in multi-fold models of body behaviour and experience as ‘ wild dance, loud singing, uncontrolled behaviour…., heat and cold sensation and physical changes, Physical raise above earth, defying gravity ….. Energy bursts displaying mind over body ‘ Qi’- power phenomenon and the like. Some of these are advanced secrets of Buddhist Martial arts practice, Buddhist Spiritual Practices of advanced Prekshaa- Meditation, Secrets of Black-Tantra (?- in burning ghats / exotic yogi-aghori sadhus with ash all over body and going naked (?)- Violent (??) ) and ‘Yajna- Fire Ritual’ distance healing practices.
2. When modern science teams work on such ‘data-instances’- from Yoga-Science frame work, the study is placed as ‘ Scientific Research on Consciousness’ ( ??) .
The analytical tool and model outcome is called ‘Meditation-Mediation- Medium - Miracle Healing performance’s (some-times using scripture chants and the like, God, Devataa, mediums invoking and intervention as different ways of explaining yoga- intervention causing conscious-mind brain matter over ‘pancha-maha-bhoota’-body- matter explanation). The only model and tool: The hammer of Thoreau wielded by science is made of ‘ 3 PP – See saw – Matter Causes consciousness’ Model. Based on this ‘ Laws of Physical Matter- Media are unscientifically extended to Psychic matter and Conscious-Matter realms. Result: Classify Yoga-Science: Conscious-Matter Phenomenon (apples) to be studied as Matter- Minus Consciousness (Oranges). Outcome : Yogi’s studied as a special sub class under the lens and model of ‘Psychotic and Psychoneurotic’ .
This is where ‘ LANGUAGE –SEMANTIC’ is CRITICALLY IMPORTANT !
Matter Medium –Language (Resonant Frequency State) is different from MIND- MEDIUM LANGUAGE (Resonant Frequency State) .
3. Why so ?: THE INSANE PSYCHONEUROTIC | American Journal of Psychiatry (psychiatryonline.org)
Abstract
The first point of interest lies in the differentiation of psychoneurotic from psychotic states. In almost all of the cases presented the diagnosis is rather perturbing. Indeed, in some it appears rather clearly to be other than psychoneurosis. Yet in most cases the state seems to be what we call psychogenetic in origin, and there are many symptoms of a psychoneurotic nature.
It is very difficult to define simply and accurately the differences between psychoneurosis and psychosis. In both the symptoms may be of the same type—pains, somatic ideas, emotional and ideational difficulties. The great outstanding difference seems to be that the psychoneurotic resist the ideas, where the psychotic accept the ideas, incorporate them into the personality and elaborate them. There are also fatigability, sensitiveness and worrying as symptoms of the psychoneurotic state, which are not usual in the psychoses. It is readily seen that the border line is tenuous and decision often difficult. In such cases the reaction to suggestion and explanation may be very important in determining the true diagnosis. Such suggestion is often only temporarily accepted even by the psychoneurotic, so that this is not an infallible guide to correct diagnosis.
Most of these patients are obviously insane in the sense earlier given. Such patients as Case I (suicidal attempt); Case II (successful suicide) ; Case III (dementia præcox type of incorporation of ideas) ; Case IV (depression causing inability to care for self); Case VII (seclusion, suicidal attempts); Case IX (somatic delusions ?, psychosexual disturbance); Case X (attempts at suicide, agitation); are clearly in need of mental hospital care and treatment, for their own protection and in the attempt to alleviate the condition. Such cases are not suitable for out-patient treatment. Yet with the exception of Case III, Case VII and Case X, the symptoms are certainly those of a psychoneurosis.
Neurotic persons are especially likely to be thrown off balance under external stress and strain. This was true in Cases II, III (?), IV, V, VI (?), VIII, IX (?). In Case III the cause possibly lay in the distasteful work and the reaction to masturbation. In Case VI the external stress seemed to be related to a cause for depression, usually the death of a loved one—which brought up the vicious circle of ideas regarding her own death. In Case IX the cause is not quite so clear, and here, furthermore, the ideas are more incorporated into the personality. In the other cases the cause seems quite clear. In Cases I, VII and X the external cause is not so apparent. In fact, the exact cause does not always clearly appear. This, of course, is more like the origin of psychosis.
Thus, Case I seems possibly associated with alcohol (involution ?); Case VII with hypertension, and some organic brain lesion (type not clear); Case X with constitutional inferiority, hypertension and involution—all of which are factors which usually do not produce states of this sort, at least in our experience. Promptly the question is raised as to the relation between these possible causes and the observed state. But it does not seem that we have progressed far enough in etiological investigation, either psychic or organic, to do more than note the associations in these cases and to await the results of therapy. There is no a priori ground for believing that a particular cause is necessary, providing that the soil be right. We could phrase it thus: Any cause on particular soils, or particular causes on any soil— although this goes somewhat too far, it roughly approximates the truth.
Accordingly it appears that differential diagnosis of psychoneurosis versus psychosis is not always easy; that external and internal causes may produce much the same state; that some psychoneuroses (symptomatically) run a manic-depressive course; that psychoneurotic symptoms may occur as the prodromal signs of dementia præcox; that psychoneurotics not infrequently commit suicide; that many are insane; that such causes as alcohol and arteriosclerosis may operate to produce a syndrome not to be distinguished from psychoneurosis.
Regards
BVK Sastry
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Edwards, Jonathan
I am intrigued, Kashyap, that you are still getting this wrong.
Yeshua is saying the same as I am – there is an important distinction between oscillations and waves. And it is crucial to modelling brain function. If, as a group, we cannot even get this right, then we are going to have a hard time making progress.
My original point was that it is dangerous to use ‘wave’ for all cyclical perturbations that lead to cyclical perturbations further along a system. We need to distinguish a ‘true classical wave’, where second differential terms (yes, the maths is what matters) describe a local restitutive mechanism, from a situation in which this does not apply. The sources Yeshua quotes make exactly this distinction between the ‘true classical wave’ which is either travelling or standing (longitudinal, tansverse etc.) and other oscillations. Without this distinction the term wave is being used ‘loosely’ and that leads to confusions about things like interference and resonance.
The see-saw is the most beautiful irony. It is the perfect example of "See saw at one place making another see saw some distance away oscillating". When Jack goes up and down, Jill goes down and up!!! And we can do better. Take a play area with twenty see-saws all of different lengths but same height of pivot, tied end to end in a long line. At the first see-saw Jack goes up and down, gently guided by his dad holding the back of his seat. At the twentieth see-saw Melanie goes down and up. Along the way Bob and Jill and Mike go up and down. But this is an oscillation, not a classical wave. Note that there may be a frequency but there is no definable wavelength.
The situation in the house power wires is like this, as it is for brain cells (really very like the row of see-saws). Things are complicated in all cases by microscopic events that connect gross dynamics. In wires we have to think of currents and notional photons and valency electron orbital distribution shifts and yes there is waveform maths hidden deep at this level. But none of this gives us a wavelength for the gross dynamics and none of it will ever produce the sinusoidal spatial profiles or anti-nodal points you would get with a true wave. The situation for the see-saws is similar. At the nano level electrons and photons are jostling to produce deformation of the planks and they have waveforms too, but so what? The gross dynamic is an oscillation with no wavelength.
From: scientific-basis...@googlegroups.com <scientific-basis...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu>
Date: Saturday, 18 February 2023 at 01:36
To: Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com <Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: scientific-basis...@googlegroups.com <scientific-basis...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [SBoC] RE: [External] Re: Standing wave memory in resonant systems: Neurophysiological experiments record synchrony and my neural models explain it
⚠ Caution: External sender
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Vasavada, Kashyap V
Jo,
You know so little physics and persist in arguing. It is not my responsibility to teach you high school physics. Read Yeshua’s articles again. You admit that if 20 see saws in a playground start going up and down there must be a string connecting them. In physics what goes through that string, up down motion is called wave. Period. in his pendulum example, the wall starts vibrating. E-m case is much subtle. An oscillating E field induces H field and oscillating H field induces E field. the process is same whether the wave travels billion miles or few feet. the power company sends you a quick e-m field travelling at light speed. You pay for that. You are using electrons in your house which go back and forth. You are not using power company electrons!! Incidentally you keep on using the words photons without understanding them. I am not sure if these are important for neuroscience. But you should know light photons travel 1 ft per nanosecond. So house is like having to travel billions of miles for photons!! Anyway, I do not wish to continue this debate. If you have confused ideas about physics, it does not bother me. You will fail freshman physics class!!
Best
kashyap
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Edwards, Jonathan
Wrong again, Kashyap. I know all about the E-M interrelation and four-vectors and so on. Which has nothing to do with gross dynamics of the alternating current in a house. Notional wavelengths of photons at microscale have nothing to do with the gross alternation, as you know.
Yeshua’s example of clocks is true wave interference because the acoustic waves have wavelengths. Pendulums have wavelengths, velocities, displacements, second differentials and all the wave stuff. Read Feynman Volume I!
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Vasavada, Kashyap V
But the fact not under dispute is that there are small electric currents and hence electric and magnetic fields in brain. There are no mechanical rods. So we have to understand dynamics of brain by E-M. whether it is classical or quantum is a separate deeper issue.
Best
kashyap
-----Original Message-----
From: biological-phys...@googlegroups.com <biological-phys...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Cathy Reason
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2023 9:10 AM
To: Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [External] Re: Standing wave memory in resonant systems: Neurophysiological experiments record synchrony and my neural models explain it
>You [Jo] admit that if 20 see saws in a playground start going up and
>through that string, up down motion is called wave. Period.
Cathy
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Stanley A. KLEIN
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Kineman-SBOC
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Edwards, Jonathan
John,
Thanks for the comments.
I would certainly like to work towards a common understanding. The first thing, though, is to agree what we are interested in and what we know about its physics. I am pretty sure we are interested in oscillating electrical potentials in cells in cerebral cortex that often show synchrony. We are also likely interested in ‘resonance’ mechanisms that might relate to synchrony and consciousness.
Steve has agreed that the oscillating potentials are not standing waves. I don’t think anyone thinks that they arise from interference between travelling waves. Neurobiology says absolutely not. As Andrew Huxley predicted in the 1950s, they are based on reciprocal dissipative ion fluxes driven by background ATP dependent ion pumps that result in a roughly sinusoidal form. This is not harmonic oscillation in energetic terms. It is more like a combined heater and air conditioning cooler in a car with the servos set slightly too sensitive so that the temperature goes up and down, with energy lost in both halves of the cycle.
The amplitude of this oscillation is probably fairly fixed for each cell if the servo is set to do this. So an increase in amplitude of a local EEG record of an oscillation indicates more cells in synchrony rather than an increase in amplitude of a particular cell oscillation.
The next question is what drives oscillating cells into synchrony – why do they seem to behave like the pendulum clocks on the table? The current view as I read it is that cells get nudged into a particular phase of cycle by driver cells feeding them signals from thalamus. In more general terms we can be reasonably sure that the phase for each cell will be driven by the timing of its inputs at synapses. I may be wrong but I don’t think cortical cells are nudged into phase by their immediate neighbours or by potentials immediately around them. That would deny them informational independence and that must be crucial to powerful computation.
So the likely thing is that any cell in cortex joining a synchrony group is doing so because of the timing of signals it is getting from somewhere distant. That drive is completely invisible to the EEG trace. Given that this distant drive will be through fixed amplitude action potentials I think we end up with an analysis that is completely independent of energetics and rests solely on temporal entrainment patterns of elements with fixed energy usages. That could be called temporal resonance but does not involve either classical or quantum wave dynamics directly.
That is probably enough for one post except to say that with thalamic drive there is no puzzle about how you get synchrony either locally or popping up in places widely scattered over cortex. It is all just done with wires according to standard neurophysiology.
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Robert Boyer
Edwards, Jonathan
I was looking at a review of the synchrony situation from Wolf Singer from maybe 2007. It is interesting that everything is presented as compatible with known neurophysiology ‘all being just done by wires’ as below. Like von der Malsburg and Buzsaki there is actually no implication of a need for anything spooky or non-local across the cortex.
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Kineman-SBOC
So the likely thing is that any cell in cortex joining a synchrony group is doing so because of the timing of signals it is getting from somewhere distant. That drive is completely invisible to the EEG trace. Given that this distant drive will be through fixed amplitude action potentials I think we end up with an analysis that is completely independent of energetics and rests solely on temporal entrainment patterns of elements with fixed energy usages. That could be called temporal resonance but does not involve either classical or quantum wave dynamics directly.
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Kineman-SBOC
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Edwards, Jonathan
I think maybe absolutely not, John.
When I say invisible to EEG I just mean that you have no way of knowing which axons the signals are going along. But if you stick a needle in the axon there is no problem recording it. There is nothing at all mysterious or beyond any physics here. It is all very humdrum Hodgkin Huxley stuff. Very accessible to physics. Just hard to do ethically on kittens, but it has still been done. The temporal entrainment is just like pressing the replay sampling button on your keyboard. Completely described in physics.
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Edwards, Jonathan
I think the idea of measuring consciousness would be a category mistake. Experiences are what we use to measure dynamic relations. They need not in themselves be dynamic relations to be measured, although they are likely to arise from dynamic relations. I think the account we have according to Singer is fine as long as we add a domain for events of experience. If that is inside cells then the Singer account at the network level is all we need. There is absolutely no need for any other ‘binding’.
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Kineman-SBOC
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Kineman-SBOC
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Kineman-SBOC
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Grossberg, Stephen
Chris King
Second, "is the idea of measuring consciousness a category mistake?”
I think the idea of measuring consciousness would be a category mistake. Experiences are what we use to measure dynamic relations. They need not in themselves be dynamic relations to be measured, although they are likely to arise from dynamic relations.
On 19/02/2023, at 12:47 PM, Grossberg, Stephen <st...@bu.edu> wrote:
Dear SBoC colleagues,A lot of issues are raised in the discussion below. I would like to call your attention to the two of them that are summarized in the header above.First, let me mention an article that sheds some light on the issue of "what drives oscillating cells into synchrony?". Multiple factors may contribute to this. The following articles show how interactions within one part of the brain can do so:Grossberg, S. and Somers, D. (1991). Synchronized oscillations during cooperative feature linking in a cortical model of visual perception. Neural Networks, 4, 453-466.
https://sites.bu.edu/steveg/files/2016/06/GroSom1991NN.pdfLeveille, J., Versace, M., and Grossberg, S. (2010). Running as fast as it can: How spiking dynamics form object groupings in the laminar circuits of visual cortex. Journal of Computational Neuroscience, 28, 323-346.I have copied the Abstract of the latter article here. I highlighted one phrase in boldface to illustrate its relevance to the current discussion:+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++"How spiking neurons cooperate to control behavioral processes is a fundamental problem in computational neuroscience. Such cooperative dynamics are required during visual perception when spatially distributed image fragments are grouped into emergent boundary contours. Perceptual grouping is a challenge for spiking cells because its properties of collinear facilitation and analog sensitivity occur in response to binary spikes with irregular timing across many interacting cells. Some models have demonstrated spiking dynamics in recurrent laminar neocortical circuits, but not how perceptual grouping occurs. Other models have analyzed the fast speed of certain percepts in terms of a single feedforward sweep of activity, but cannot explain other percepts, such as illusory contours, wherein perceptual ambiguity can take hundreds of milliseconds to resolve by integrating multiple spikes over time. The current model reconciles fast feedforward with slower feedback processing, and binary spikes with analog network-level properties, in a laminar cortical network of spiking cells whose emergent properties quantitatively simulate parametric data from neurophysiological experiments, including the formation of illusory contours; the structure of non-classical visual receptive fields; and self-synchronizing gamma oscillations. These laminar dynamics shed new light on how the brain resolves local informational ambiguities through the use of properly designed nonlinear feedback spiking networks which run as fast as they can, given the amount of uncertainty in the data that they process."+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++Second, "is the idea of measuring consciousness a category mistake?"Various leading neuroscientists have contributed to making the link between underlying brain dynamics and conscious awareness. Here are a few examples:Logothetis, N. K., Leopold, D. A., and Sheinberg, D. L. (1996). What is rivalling during binocular rivalry?Nature, 380, 621-624.https://www.nature.com/articles/380621a0.pdf
Engel, A. K., Fries, P., Konig, P., Brecht, M., and Singer, W. (1999). Temporal binding, binocular rivalry, and consciousness.Consciousness and Cognition, 8, 128-151.
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Alex Hankey
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Alex Hankey
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Chris King
Edwards, Jonathan
Hi John,
The point I was making here was that if we are studying and measuring causal antecedents that seem to determine when conscious events occur and their content then at the network level all we need is the neuron doctrine model of cells influencing each other through synapses. We don’t need any extra smeared out processes that people hope will explain ‘binding’ when we have a perfectly adequate explanation for binding inside cells. Not a point of ‘all we need’ in metaphysics terms.
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Edwards, Jonathan
I am not sure what is being meant by resonance but if you mean synchrony then the evidence is that it is driven by signals from likely thalamic ‘timekeeper cells’ that cortical cells receive alongside ‘data’ signals and control the phase of their excitable/refractory cycles. It is all done through axonal connections.
I don’t know what an ‘EM wave’ would be here. Again, we need to be clear about rems.
I don’t know of any evidence for synchrony between brains in terms of EEG patterns. It sounds extremely implausible since in a single brain there are all sorts of rhythms going on in different places. That sounds like nonsense to me.
The propagation of EM potential shifts through skulls has nothing to do with the interactions in brain, any more than the fact that you can see a dog means that photons from a dog’s fur make it run. To make any sense of brain activity we need to have a reasonable grasp of the complex geometry of the field events. It is a waste of time talking at this level.
And none of this tells us how you ‘get to consciousness’, any more than it tells us why there is a universe. All we know is that the events we call physical are known to us because they can contribute one way or another to determining occurrence or content of conscious events. So consciousness is what physics is about. Without it there would no meaning to ‘physical’. So it seems a bit of an empty questsion?
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Edwards, Jonathan
I am trying to catch up with the threads.
Thanks to Steve for the comments below. It seems we are agreed that synchrony arises from complex network interactions based on spikes and synapses, with convergence of timing likely having complex origins.
I think we are also agree that studying the events that determine occurrence and content of conscious experience is a flourishing business. But as far as I can see we have no basis for ‘measuring’ experiences per se since they are ‘what you get here, at the end’ of a dynamic sequence and do not reveal anything about the dynamics that brought them into being other than very distant anterior events in the world through the qualia of representation.
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Stanley A. KLEIN
Vasavada, Kashyap V
ChrisK,
You are misquoting me!!
“Kashyap seems to take the simplest conclusion that classical rules unless we are doing a Bell experiment”
I never said that. I have been emphasizing that universe is QM, not just in BELL situation but everywhere. But whether you can see QM effects or not depends on the Improvement in technology of measurement. Improved technology will result in QM effects showing up in larger and larger systems. About brain I am not sure if we can see QM effects.
Btw in laser the theory is that 2 electrons are coupled momentarily while being scattered (non scattered actually by lattice!) giving zero resistance. This pair may break and may be replaced by another pair. Superconductivity is macroscopic demonstration of QM.
I do not think any interpretation OF QM is necessary. Mathematical theory and agreement is all we can ask for.
Best
kashyap
From: biological-phys...@googlegroups.com <biological-phys...@googlegroups.com>
On Behalf Of Chris King
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2023 7:06 PM
To: Biological Physics and Meaning <Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com>; Grossberg, Stephen <st...@bu.edu>; Chris Nunn <cmh...@btinternet.com>; Edwards, Jonathan <jo.ed...@ucl.ac.uk>; Hal Cox <hkco...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [External] Standing wave memory in resonant systems: Getting real about maths and physics in the brain
Dear CN, Steve, Jo, Hal, and All,
I agree with CN. I think Steve, for all his faults, has been more than patient with Jo. Steve has one great virtue. He is actually working with abstract nets which could be artificial, but tries very consistently to make his conclusions biologically meaningful and tests them carefully. He applies a rigorous feedback to his reasoning – i.e. he applies adaptive resonance to his own thinking.
I was a very funky mathematician who intended to be a medical doctor, but I find the ways in which many of you argue about mathematical concepts to be like pre-linguistic toddlers playing in a sand pit while you probably feel more like Pythagoras. I’m not trying to be mean or insulting, but I don't think analogical breaks from physical reality will further in any way towards understanding either how the brain actually works biologically or how it evokes subjective consciousness “spiritually”. You are just entertaining one another telling creation stories around the camp fire.
There is clear evidence that action potentials are in phase angle feedback with graded wave potentials in the tissue. If you can spend weeks debating whether travelling waves occur in the brain how are you ever going to deal with the real problems of complex processing? Jo seems to have a kind of intellectual death wish to dive completely off any physical or mathematical reasoning into slam dunk analogical fantasy insisting on proving to Steve that "standing waves don't exist".
Symbiotic Existential Cosmology is very vague about certain things, for example it tries to be agnostic about quantum interpretations although leaning heavily on the transactional interpretation at critical points of the discussion. But it strives not to make arbitrary assumptions and keep to the know empirical and theoretic science.
Another issue is the way the discussion about entanglement ensues and entanglement with the measurement apparatus. The universe looks to us classical at the macroscopic level but there is no resolution between interpretations of no collapse from the Everett multiverse view of completely entangled wave functions and QBism, which just collapses everything and turns it into a state of partial ignorance like super-Copenhagen.
Not everything in the universe is entanglement but there is a sense in which colliding particles and open system quantum chaos do because wave interaction even in decoherence shows features like quantum discord and recoherence. The real question is how collapsed the macroscopic universe actually is. Kashyap seems to take the simplest conclusion that classical rules unless we are doing a Bell experiment, and neuroscience tends to claim it's all classical unless proved otherwise.
Everyone in the group has this wrong in fundamental ways. The macroscopic universe in not classical it's quantum. When we use a laser pen we know that the light is coherent and millions of photons are in the same wave function caused by the standing waves of light caught between two reflecting mirrors. We see the light so we see the entangled state directly, not just through Bell correlations later. Other situations like Schrödinger cats show us that the particulate staccato of radioactivity can disrupt wave functions through particle creation and observation of the outcome has collapsed the wave function. The whole of neurobiology is a seething mass of Schrödinger cat experiments that never get a chance to converge to the probability interpretation because they are each changing the context of measurement so it’s fundamentally quantum in nature throughout.
One of the central features of Symbiotic Existential Cosmology is that it envisages a dynamic universe in which both wave function collapse and entanglement are occurring and we are in a constant state of phase transition between the two, so that consciousness itself is creating pseudo-classical history through observing and hence manifesting the universe thorough volition performing collapsing quantum measurements, but Symbiotic Existential Cosmology also allows for dynamical collapse between quanta as observers as well when a quantum particle interacts with a wave function in which conversion to a particle state occurs.
I’ll leave you all to ponder this!
CK
On 19/02/2023, at 4:18 AM, cmhnunn via Biological Physics and Meaning <Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Jo. Relative to the earth’s surface dawn is a travelling wave. Poets have found the idea useful and plants use the fact!
Cheers
ChrisN
From: biological-phys...@googlegroups.com <biological-phys...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Edwards, Jonathan
Sent: 18 February 2023 15:09
To: Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [External] Re: Standing wave memory in resonant systems: Neurophysiological experiments record synchrony and my neural models explain it
So you would regard sunrise as a travelling wave, Chris?
I don’t find that a useful description.
From: cmhnunn via Biological Physics and Meaning <Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Saturday, 18 February 2023 at 14:54
To: Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com <Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: RE: [External] Re: Standing wave memory in resonant systems: Neurophysiological experiments record synchrony and my neural models explain itHi Jo,
EEGs are travelling waves - waves of varying electric potential travelling over the scalp surface as blurred, averaged representations of periodic field variations at much smaller scales in underlying brain.
They take all sorts of shapes. Sleep delta activity is like ocean waves rolling from frontal to occipital poles. Interference effects can produce spikes, local bursts and what you might call ‘standing waves’; evoked potentials often have a similar form to Stan’s ‘wavicles’.
I should apologize by the way for wasting your time with Johnjoe MacFadden’s arguments for the functionality of large scale, wavy e-m fields. The fact that TMS (transcranial magnetic stimulation) has consequences for mental functioning dependent on placement and frequency of the applied field shows beyond reasonable doubt that they are more than epiphenomena.
Best
ChrisN
From: biological-phys...@googlegroups.com <biological-phys...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Edwards, Jonathan
Sent: 18 February 2023 14:23
To: Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [External] Re: Standing wave memory in resonant systems: Neurophysiological experiments record synchrony and my neural models explain it
Quite so, Cathy.
And Steve has agreed that he didn’t mean standing waves technically speaking and Walter clearly didn’t mean standing waves technically – in fact he specifically denied lateral propagation. So nobody actually believes that the EEG is picking up standing waves, or even travelling waves (except perhaps Chris N).
From: biological-phys...@googlegroups.com <biological-phys...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cathy Reason <cmrn...@gmail.com>
Date: Saturday, 18 February 2023 at 14:10
To: Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com <Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [External] Re: Standing wave memory in resonant systems: Neurophysiological experiments record synchrony and my neural models explain it
⚠ Caution: External sender
On 2/18/23, Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu> wrote:
>You [Jo] admit that if 20 see saws in a playground start going up and down
> there must be a string connecting them. In physics what goes through that
> string, up down motion is called wave. Period.
What if the seesaws are connected by a rigid bar? Presumably there is
still an electromagnetic wave propagating at the atomic/molecular
level. But for practical purposes, we would think of such an
arrangement of seesaws as a single rigid object, not an ensemble
connected by a wave propagating through the bar -- is that not so?
Cathy
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Alex Hankey
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Chris King
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Vasavada, Kashyap V
ChrisK,
Yes. Thanks. You caught my typo right. Laser theory was a dumb typo! In the next sentence, I used the correct word superconductivity which needs very low temperatures. Lasers also are great manifestations of QM. But they need only population inversion and stimulated photon emission, no low temperatures. Supermarkets do not need low temperatures!!
With right arm in sling and one left finger typing, I better be careful!!
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Whit Blauvelt
> RE: For anyone who may be interested in the archival modeling that supports
> such results, you can download around 560 articles that my colleagues and I
> published over the past 66 years from my web page sites.bu.edu/steveg.
> ME: Don't be so ridiculous Stephen. Why on Earth should you expect anyone to
> read 560 articles of yours and colleagues, When You Adamantly Refuse to Read a
> Single One of Anyone Else's???
By you logic then, we should never read the writings of those no longer
alive, as they cannot return the favor by reading our own? Do we often read
as a favor to the writer, or mostly for ourselves? If someone shares a feast
with you, when you subsequently invite them to dine at your house are they
obligated on account of their prior generousity? What if, at their feast,
you insulted them, blaming them it was not to your taste?
Best,
Whit
Grossberg, Stephen
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2023 1:18 PM
To: scientific-basis...@googlegroups.com <scientific-basis...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [SBoC] [External] Re: What drives oscillating cells into synchrony? Is the idea of measuring consciousness a category mistake?
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Chris King
For anyone who may be interested in the archival modeling that supports such results, you can download around 560 articles that my colleagues and I published over the past 66 years from my web page sites.bu.edu/steveg.
"Don't be so ridiculous Stephen. Why on Earth should you expect anyone to read 560 articles of yours and colleagues, When You Adamantly Refuse to Read a Single One of Anyone Else's???"
Your statement is ad hominem, false, and misleading. Capital Letters Do Not Make It True.
By you[r] logic then, we should never read the writings of those no longer alive, as they cannot return the favor by reading our own? Do we often read as a favor to the writer, or mostly for ourselves? If someone shares a feast with you, when you subsequently invite them to dine at your house are they obligated on account of their prior generousity? What if, at their feast, you insulted them, blaming them it was not to your taste?
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/scientific-basis-of-consciousness/PH0PR03MB65768A5117978409A7DE3A26C6A49%40PH0PR03MB6576.namprd03.prod.outlook.com.
Chris King
For anyone who may be interested in the archival modeling that supports such results, you can download around 560 articles that my colleagues and I published over the past 66 years from my web page sites.bu.edu/steveg.
"Don't be so ridiculous Stephen. Why on Earth should you expect anyone to read 560 articles of yours and colleagues, When You Adamantly Refuse to Read a Single One of Anyone Else's???"
Your statement is ad hominem, false, and misleading. Capital Letters Do Not Make It True.
As to being someone who would "adamantly refuse to read a single one of anyone else's", it will perhaps make you even angrier when I point out that, because I read so voraciously across multiple literatures, I was invited to join the editorial boards of 30 journals, and served as the founding Editor-in-Chief of the journal Neural Networks for 17 years, while leading it to become the archival journal of the International, European, and Japanese Neural Network societies.
By you[r] logic then, we should never read the writings of those no longer alive, as they cannot return the favor by reading our own? Do we often read as a favor to the writer, or mostly for ourselves? If someone shares a feast with you, when you subsequently invite them to dine at your house are they obligated on account of their prior generousity? What if, at their feast, you insulted them, blaming them it was not to your taste?
On 21/02/2023, at 9:05 AM, Grossberg, Stephen <st...@bu.edu> wrote:
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Alex Hankey
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Whit Blauvelt
> Dear Steve, Why did you say “around 560 articles” unless you are “advertising"
> your vast numerical output? It has zero informative value. Alex is right about
> this.
Should we take your advertising of your cosmology's bulk as having "zero
informative value"? If using numbers to refer to the extent of your work is
a sin, you're not the one to cast a stone about it.
Whit
Grossberg, Stephen
To: scientific-basis...@googlegroups.com <scientific-basis...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [SBoC] [External] Re: Capitals do not make a false statement true – In staunch defence of Alex
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Chris King
You have several times recently mentioned just how long your online book is. Should we take your advertising of your cosmology's bulk as having “zero informative value"? If using numbers to refer to the extent of your work is a sin, you're not the one to cast a stone about it.
It’s possible for Buddhist compassion to be helpful and insightful when taken metaphorically, but Buddhist doctrine is fundamentalist in claim.
Really? Look again at the "mirror" poems of the 5th and 6th Patriarchs. It’s about both the aptness and limitations of a central metaphor. The poems were written in the context of the Diamond Sutra, the primary text both Patriarchs drew from, which looks at how all concepts, however apt, are limited, not to be taken in a fundamentalist way.
It’s essentially trivial to experience mind-world unity....
Chris, please suggest a "trivial" method that a normal person can use to experience mind-world unity, short of dosing on psychedelics. It seems that most people, at least in Western culture, don't commonly experience this. Are you saying it's uncommon, yet trivial? Considering that it's generally reported as a nice state to be in, if the experience is trivially acomplished, why is it not central to our cultural practice and attitude?
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Hal Cox
Dear Hal,
I am now unsubscribed from both groups.
I will now have a lot more time to do my work in peace.
Thanks very much for your steady support. It is much appreciated!
Best,
Steve
Vasavada, Kashyap V
Sorry to know that you are leaving these groups. I was looking forward to listening to your talk on learning circle. I hope you will still consider giving a summary talk. I understand your feeling. I get this kind of feeling when some people on these groups with not even knowledge of a high school level physics make critical statements about physics. I am coming to the conclusion that one does not have to answer every criticism. Just ignore them!!!
Best
kashyap
-----Original Message-----
From: biological-phys...@googlegroups.com <biological-phys...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Bernard Baars
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2023 2:21 PM
To: Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com
Cc: Grossberg, Stephen <st...@bu.edu>; Carey <ca...@theembassyofpeace.com>; Joshua Ben <joshu...@yahoo.com>; Scientific Basis of Consciousness <scientific-basis...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [External] Re: I am now happily unsubscribed
This message was sent from a non-IU address. Please exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments from external sources.
Dear Steve,
Congratulations again on your excellent, important, and large body of work.
b:)
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Stanley A. KLEIN
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Vasavada, Kashyap V
I was not referring to debates on neuroscience or consciousness in general. Neuroscience is an emerging field. There are many unknowns. So these debates are ok with me. I was talking about some physics principles which are established for 100/300 years and are already in high school books. Some people on these forums do not understand them and then criticize my statements! Hence forth I will ignore them. That was my suggestion to Steve who was so offended with some criticisms that he has left these groups.
Best
kashyap
-----Original Message-----
From: biological-phys...@googlegroups.com <biological-phys...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Cathy Reason
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2023 12:47 AM
To: Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [External] Re: I am now happily unsubscribed
On 2/22/23, Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu> wrote:
> I get this kind of feeling
> when some people on these groups with not even knowledge of a high
> school level physics make critical statements about physics.
I posted this salutary tale to SBoC last year but I think it's worth repeating here. Maybe it will help to illustrate why biologists are generally pretty skeptical of neural network models of the brain
Some years ago, I was working on a research project at a London university. I was given the task of replicating a neural network model of cisual attention. The model was described in a published article, which also included the results of some experimental tests of the model using psychophysical methods. On analyzing the model, however, I discovered something rather disturbing. The model included components which turned out to be functionally useless, but which served to reduce the effectiveness of the model, by generating arbitrary errors. Furthermore, the errors generated by these functionally useless components turned out to be precisely the predicted effects which were subsequently supposed to have been demonstrated using psychophysical experiments. There was clearly only one reasonable explanation: somehow, the error-generating mechanisms had been "bolted on" to a functional model in order to generate experimental effects, which, supposedly, no-one knew anything about when the model was constructed.
Whether this came about as a result of deliberate fraud or by simple self-deception, I never found out. I'm inclined to think it was the latter. But it happens, I have seen it happen, and I offer it as a word of warning to anyone who feels inclined to take the predictions of neural network models at face value.
Cathy
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Bernard Baars
Congratulations again on your excellent, important, and large body of work.
b:)
On Wed, Feb 22, 2023 at 11:04 AM Hal Cox <hkco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
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Stanley A. KLEIN
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Vasavada, Kashyap V
Hi Sung,
I cannot type high school and college freshman physics books in e-mail. you have to read them! You have total misunderstanding of travelling and standing waves. Amplitude is always taken as positive. Displacement becomes positive and negative because of sin, cos and phases in them. A mechanical wave when it is reflected from a rigid support has to reverse its displacement to cancel incoming wave and keep reflection point stationary. There is 180 deg phase difference.
In your poster you say amplitude is reversed and phases of both waves are same .That is nonsense. If you do not want to believe it is ok with me! You are not going to change MSP!!! Also it is foolhardy to try to change understanding of entanglement in physics. I am not sure about biology.
Best
kashyap
From: biological-phys...@googlegroups.com <biological-phys...@googlegroups.com>
On Behalf Of Sungchul Ji
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2023 3:40 PM
To: Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Fwd: [External] Re: I am now happily unsubscribed
Hi Kashyap,
"I was talking about some physics principles which are established for 100/300 years and are already in high school books. "
What are these principles? Can you share them with us?
Thanks.
Sung
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Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal
Hi CK and Whit,
[ck] … the central tenet of Buddhism is driven by the grasping ego as Maya and all the psychology of compassion and coexistence stems from a cosmology of extinction of the cycle of birth in Nirvana which is an end game with no respite [relief, interval, break]. You can't escape it.
[rv] In all frameworks (including the Vedic system, SEC, IDAM, and science), death is inevitable; there is no escape from death, unfortunately. In SEC also, after moksha, we have to return back to where we came from. In science, once death embraces us, we are gone forever; the whole universe will eventually die. Why is death is taken so negatively in Buddhism? Yes, if we are not born we will not face duhkha/suffering, but what is new in this hypothesis? In the Vedic system, after moksha, we as eternal atmans merge with (ie., return back to) the source Brahman. This is why whatever is happening is called “Leela”/play. Enjoy it!
Rām
----------------------------------------------------------
Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.
Vision Research Institute Inc, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.
25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA
Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal
Researched at the University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
Vasavada, Kashyap V
No ! These conventions are used in thousand different equations used in theories in so many different areas of physics. Displacements add, interfere and so on. One biologist should not insist on changing conventions!!! It is more likely misunderstanding how standing waves are formed from travelling waves.
kashyap
-----Original Message-----
From: biological-phys...@googlegroups.com <biological-phys...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Cathy Reason
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2023 11:37 AM
To: Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [External] Re: I am now happily unsubscribed
> In your poster you [Sung] say amplitude is reversed and phases of both
Cathy
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Whit Blauvelt
> [ck] … the central tenet of Buddhism is driven by the grasping ego as Maya and
> all the psychology of compassion and coexistence stems from a cosmology of
> extinction of the cycle of birth in Nirvana which is an end game with no
> respite [relief, interval, break]. You can't escape it.
>
> [rv] In all frameworks (including the Vedic system, SEC, IDAM, and science),
> death is inevitable; there is no escape from death, unfortunately. In SEC also,
> after moksha, we have to return back to where we came from. In science, once
> death embraces us, we are gone forever; the whole universe will eventually die.
> Why is death is taken so negatively in Buddhism? Yes, if we are not born we
> will not face duhkha/suffering, but what is new in this hypothesis? In the
> Vedic system, after moksha, we as eternal atmans merge with (ie., return back
> to) the source Brahman. This is why whatever is happening is called “Leela”/
> play. Enjoy it!
There's a vast range within Buddhism, as within Christianity and other
widespread spiritual systems. Chris has clearly studied with different
Buddhists than I. The Buddhists I know advise that questions about the
afterlife are best left to the side, as they distract from focus on truing
the wheel. The origin of the word "dukkha" is of the axle whole being off
center. So Buddhist practice is about getting the wheel to roll more
smoothly, getting the 8 spokes into dynamic balance, into symmetry. "Dukkha"
is not well-translated as "suffering." Perhaps Christians, with our belief
in original sin, wish to see other religions as also positing some original
flaw in existence. The Dalai Lama say the concept of original sin was the
hardest thing for him to understand about Christianity; there's nothing like
it in Tibetan Buddhism. Christians also worship Christ's suffering on the
Cross. The concept doesn't fit Buddhism; it's a translation as simple as it
is wrong.
It's not about "ego." Buddhists were never Freudians. But the slight
similarity is that Buddhists hold the wheel gets out of true when we see
ourselves only as separated rather than also as whole with the world -- the
conception of the wholeness of wholeness and separation, which of course is
not unique to Buddhism. While Freud did discuss "the oceanic feeling" of
nonseparation, it was only to belittle it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oceanic_feeling.
Buddhist compassion follows from the conception -- and hopefully perception
-- of nonseparation. It's not renunciation of self, but recognition that the
other is also oneself. Jungian individuation, with it's connection to the
collective unconscious and the archetypes we share, shows a way in which
nonseparation may be detailed and complex, not just dissolve into a vague
void. Tibetan Buddhists do amazing things in ritual engagement with
archetypes -- practices certainly not about "surrender of ego" or other such
badly-translated simplifications of the Buddhist core.
Whit
Chris King
Yes, if we are not born we will not face duhkha/suffering, but what is new in this hypothesis? In the Vedic system, after moksha, we as eternal atmans merge with (ie., return backto) the source Brahman. This is why whatever is happening is called “Leela”/play. Enjoy it!
The origin of the word "dukkha" is of the axle whole being off center. So Buddhist practice is about getting the wheel to roll more
smoothly, getting the 8 spokes into dynamic balance, into symmetry. “Dukkha" is not well-translated as "suffering."
The Dalai Lama say[s] the concept of original sin was the hardest thing for him to understand about Christianity; there's nothing like it in Tibetan Buddhism.
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Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal
Rām
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Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.
Vision Research Institute Inc, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.
25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA
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Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal
Hi CK and Whit,
[1]
[rv] Yes, if we are not born we will not face duhkha/suffering, but what is new in this hypothesis? In the Vedic system, after moksha, we as eternal atmans merge with (ie., return backto) the source Brahman. This is why whatever is happening is called “Leela”/play. Enjoy it!
[ck] I think this statement of Ram is holding a deep insight which is key to the whole phenomenon of life and death. I’m beginning to understand from these discussions the extent to which our knowledge of Brahman or the cosmic mind is only beginning. That there is a huge significant reality out there and in here, that we are only scratching the surface of, even in all traditions put together. And like the scientific revolution, the answers are going to be confoundingly different from our expectations, so the vision quest is discovering that reality. This is a profound huge journey we have only just begun and it needs to be pursued as the root discovery process it is, without any prior doctrinal assumptions, but we need to approach it with joie de vivre – ecstasy even – and ride over the realities of suffering in the mortal coil.
Symbiotic Existential Cosmology introduces a novel element, in that the purpose, or meaning of existence, is not just enlightenment but the preservation and flowering of life immortal in a sentient universe pulling itself up by its bootstraps into a revelation of full cosmic consciousness. Humanity’s role on Earth is thus the protection of life and its diversity as our “sine qua non – raison d’être”. I contend this is new and is much more than just being compassionate to sentient beings. Nor is it Chardin’s Christogenic “noosphere”, but a real biological manifestation of conscious life immortal in the passage of the generations compensating for organismic mortality, because this is the only way cosmic consciousness can come alive in the physical universe of fermions and bosons and entropic thermodynamics, held back by the negentropy of life itself.
[rv] I agree, CK. What new principles you would like to propose for better/happier mundane life in addition to 8 noble paths (Right Understanding, Right Thought, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration)? We don’t need to involve controversial life-after-death, rebirth/reincarnation, &c. Yes, if we can perform good karma in our mundane lives using the simple principle of “fairness”: thinking if we are in place of our opponents (or other person) then how do we feel; if we feel bad then it is not fair, and hence we should not do that karma; otherwise, it will come back to us in one or other form and cause us to suffer.
[2]
[wb] The origin of the word "dukkha" is of the axle whole being off center. So Buddhist practice is about getting the wheel to roll more smoothly, getting the 8 spokes into dynamic balance, into symmetry. “Dukkha" is not well-translated as "suffering."
[ck] I agree with Whit about the notion of dukkha and the unbalanced wheel. This means that Buddhism is three things: (1) A practical art of balancing, to enter in to psychological balance in the world of “mundane existence” amid grasping desires. (2) A quasi-scientific cosmology which is atheistic and preaches impermanent co-arising dynamics reaching toward an enlightenment free of fixed assumptions it calls “emptiness” for want of a better word. (3) The traditional Eastern cosmology of reincarnation to tie it all into a moral framework, which I believe is a false morality, although karma is real. The difficulty I see with this is that emptiness is empty and Brahman is full to overflowing and in need of further exploration and discovery.
[rv] I agree, CK. Bob (Boyer) claims that emptiness (a glass is half-empty) is equivalent to fullness (the glass is half-full) or in your ICAM/SEC language they (emptiness and fullness) are “complementary” aspects. In my view, ethics and morality vary with individuals, but good karma based on fairness will still reduce our mundane suffering without involving controversial rebirth/reincarnationas elaborated above in [1].
[3]
[wb] The Dalai Lama say[s] the concept of original sin was the hardest thing for him to understand about Christianity; there's nothing like it in Tibetan Buddhism.
[ck] Whit also mentions Christianity and the notion of evil and original sin, so I want to explain how SEC treats sin and evil. The Western tradition tends towards a dualistic apocalyptic model of good and evil and Eastern traditions also invoke a moral causality ending in a Kali Yuga. The Western tradition pictures sin as rebellion against God’s will in an extrapolated eternal cosmology in which temptation becomes literally excruciating. There is a contradiction here in that this is a uniquely human phenomenon. Intelligent animals do not experience natural evil because each species has a role in the biospheric ecology that is held together by biospheric selection across the generations, so that carnivores actually keep the herbivores in balance form boom and bust extinction and the herbivores keep the plants in balance. Even Covid is a virus whose niche is symbiotic with bats that has been knocked off its perch and rabies and ebola are self-limiting in a diverse ecology.
Thus there is really no such thing as natural evil and this teaches us a lesson about what evil actually is – a product of humanity becoming a cultural phenomenon, giving rise to cultural forms of evil when the power of potentates extends far beyond looking after their offspring and involves destructive wats of domination and destructive social behaviour driven by forms of psychopathy which can survive only in a rapidly evolving cultural context. Basically pure evil aka original sin is a product of cultural actions which directly or indirectly predispose to the breakdown of humanity’s relationship with the biosphere as a whole in forms of exploitation that indirectly risk extinction of the human species. We all become complicit in this unless we dedicate our lives to protecting the diversity of life as a whole. We have no idea whether humanity can survive as a species and other species may need to take over the beacon of illumination. By killing off the primates, we are killing of our own prospect of collective survival.
[rv] I agree, CK. In my view, for our mundane life, evil/sin is equivalent to unfair/bad karma without involving controversial rebirth/reincarnation.
Rām
----------------------------------------------------------
Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.
Vision Research Institute Inc, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.
25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA
Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal
Researched at the University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
Yes, if we are not born we will not face duhkha/suffering, but what is new in this hypothesis? In the Vedic system, after moksha, we as eternal atmans merge with (ie., return backto) the source Brahman. This is why whatever is happening is called “Leela”/play. Enjoy it!
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Vasavada, Kashyap V
Cathy and Sung,
Ok! One last time for this nonsensical discussion! I am forwarding Sung’s e-mail which is same as his poster. Cathy, read his words. In plain ENGLISH in the table , he says amplitudes are reversed and phases are same. his standing wave (red line ) has zero amplitude! He does not understand standing has loops!!! He does not understand permanent nodes and antinodes!
Best
kashyap
From: biological-phys...@googlegroups.com <biological-phys...@googlegroups.com>
On Behalf Of Sungchul Ji
Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2023 12:31 AM
To: Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [External] Re: I am now happily unsubscribed
Hi Kashyap, Joshua, and others,
Thanks for your prompt reply.
"In your poster you say amplitude is reversed and phases (2/25/2023/1)
of both waves are same. That is nonsense."
No. It is not nonsense as explained below:
If you have any further objections to my description of standing waves which is opposite to yours, please let me know.
With all the best.
Sung
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Paul Werbos
Hi Sung,
I cannot type high school and college freshman physics books in e-mail. you have to read them! You have total misunderstanding of travelling and standing waves. Amplitude is always taken as positive. Displacement becomes positive and negative because of sin, cos and phases in them. A mechanical wave when it is reflected from a rigid support has to reverse its displacement to cancel incoming wave and keep reflection point stationary. There is 180 deg phase difference.
In your poster you say amplitude is reversed and phases of both waves are same .That is nonsense.
True. A wrong choice of words can massively reduce credibility. What you mean is coherent but needs to be expressed better.
Iff you do not want to believe it is ok with me! You are not going to change MSP!!! Also it is foolhardy to try to change understanding of entanglement in physics. I am not sure about biology.
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Vasavada, Kashyap V
Jo,
I promised myself not to do physics with people who have forgotten high school or freshman physics. but I keep violating that promise.
“ Waves of the same frequency travelling in opposite directions will always produce a standing wave with nodes and antinodes. Wave so different frequencies will produce shifting patterns.
There is no such thing as two waves going in opposite directions being in phase or out of phase.”
KV: This Is wrong and nonsense to put it mildly!! What you and Sung are missing is that reflected wave has different space dependence
+kx instead of -kx as the incoming wave in addition to phase difference of 180 deg.
BEST
kashyap
From: biological-phys...@googlegroups.com <biological-phys...@googlegroups.com>
On Behalf Of Edwards, Jonathan
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2023 4:34 PM
To: biological-phys...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [External] Re: I am now happily unsubscribed
Sung,
If you take your top picture and wait for a quarter of a cycle then the blue wave will have moved a quarter cycle to the right and the green wave a quarter cycle to the left and you have precisely the bottom picture. Now the same waves cannot produce both constructive and destructive interference so something is wrong. Moreover, since both waves have a given energy per length content they cannot cancel each other out because there is nowhere for the energy to go.
Waves of the same frequency travelling in opposite directions will always produce a standing wave with nodes and antinodes. Wave so different frequencies will produce shifting patterns.
There is no such thing as two waves going in opposite directions being in phase or out of phase.
It is true that there is a point in time when a standing wave has zero displacement all along and a point in time when it has maximum displacement at antinodes but that does not mean that the standing wave has zero amplitude.
From:
biological-phys...@googlegroups.com <biological-phys...@googlegroups.com>
on behalf of Sungchul Ji <sji.co...@gmail.com>
Date: Sunday, 26 February 2023 at 21:18
To: biological-phys...@googlegroups.com <biological-phys...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [External] Re: I am now happily unsubscribed
⚠ Caution: External sender
Hi Cathy,
Thanks for coming back to the important debate about standing waves between Kashyap and me.
"Kashyap is clearly under the impression that you have defined a
canceling wave as of the same phase as the outgoing wave but of
opposite amplitude."
No. That may be his mis-interpretation of what I meant, i.e., as shown in the second figure below, the incoming wave (blue; moving from left to right) and the outgoing wave (green;
moving from right to left) are out of phase by 180 degrees, resulting in each wave having opposite amplitudes to each other along the abscissa.
I hope this clarifies the different descriptions of standing waves attributed to Kashyap and me.
If you have any further questions or comments, please let me know.
All the best.
Sung
On Sun, Feb 26, 2023 at 8:32 AM Cathy Reason <cmrn...@gmail.com> wrote:
On 2/26/23, Sungchul Ji <sji.co...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Maybe we are talking about the same phenomenon in two different languages?
Kashyap is clearly under the impression that you have defined a
canceling wave as of the same phase as the outgoing wave but of
opposite amplitude.
Maybe you could clarify if you really did use this definition (which
would be technically right but unconventional).
Cathy
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Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal
Please read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_wave and see also “Mathematical description” especially Eq.(1).
Rām
----------------------------------------------------------
Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.
Vision Research Institute Inc, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.
25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA
Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
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Vasavada, Kashyap V
Aren't strings in string instruments tied at both ends? This will force a node at both ends and hence sin description will work. There are some extra details though. The loud sound is due to resonance with the air column and wood also in the instrument. Also when they strike a string there are harmonics. I understand that is why the sound is much more pleasing than just one frequency.
Best
kashyap
-----Original Message-----
From: biological-phys...@googlegroups.com <biological-phys...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Cathy Reason
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2023 11:55 AM
To: Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [External] Re: standing waves
This message was sent from a non-IU address. Please exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments from external sources.
-------
> But the displacement of the outgoing right hand wave is also zero at
> the boundary! Right from the start.
I had to look this up and I'm still not sure I understand it. I find it puzzling how this situation can be represented as a superpsoition of waves going in opposite directions, although the sources I've looked up insist that it can. But if the wave is not strictly a sine wave, that would indicate to me that the wave equation in such cases is not strictly linear.
This is precisely why I am so rubbish at physics.
Cathy
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Vasavada, Kashyap V
Hi RAM,
Yes. This wiki article is good and says the same thing as in my short mathematical note. It is good for people who have forgotten high school or freshman physics or never understood it in the first place.
Best
kashyap
From: scientific-basis...@googlegroups.com <scientific-basis...@googlegroups.com>
On Behalf Of Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2023 11:55 AM
To: Biological Physics and Meaning <biological-phys...@googlegroups.com>; scientific-basis...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [External] [SBoC] Standing wave
This message was sent from a non-IU address. Please exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments from external sources.
Please read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_wave and see also “Mathematical description” especially Eq.(1).
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Vasavada, Kashyap V
JO,
Sorry ! I do not need catching up!! You and Sung have to read freshman physics book. I have taught this stuff for 39 years. It seems that your knowledge of physics is derived from watching U tube videos and occasional conversations with Michael Fisher. It takes good 10 years of college study to understand physics. It is not an easy subject!!!
Best
kashyap
From: biological-phys...@googlegroups.com <biological-phys...@googlegroups.com>
On Behalf Of Edwards, Jonathan
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2023 12:14 PM
To: biological-phys...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [External] Re: standing waves
I am glad that you have caught up with us, Kashyap.
From:
biological-phys...@googlegroups.com <biological-phys...@googlegroups.com>
on behalf of Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu>
Date: Monday, 27 February 2023 at 17:05
To: biological-phys...@googlegroups.com <biological-phys...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: scientific-basis...@googlegroups.com <scientific-basis...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: RE: [External] Re: standing waves
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Edwards, Jonathan
Dear Kashyap,
My refreshed knowledge of this actually comes from spending hours pouring over Feynman’s excellent Volume 1. Moreover,
I was awarded a scholarship to attend Isaac Newton’s college in Cambridge to read physics on the basis of, so I understand, my detailed analysis of gas expansion under different conditions. The only reason I did not in the end read physics was that I thought looking after people in medicine would be more rewarding. I have also taught topics like birefringence to students for decades. I am very used to getting up to speed on other people’s disciplines when I need to. Why not get up to speed on brains, Kashyap?
You have now suddenly remembered that violin strings are fixed at the end. Which of course makes a nonsense of some earlier comments about reflexions of sine wave - as Cathy realised. You have made it very clear that while you have mastery of the maths you can make silly elementary mistakes in practical application. (Either that or your wording is seriously confusing.) We all do that. Why not admit it? I confused nodes with antinodes, probably because in medicine and botany nodes are thick bulging bits not the antinodes. But if people confuse more than just words, which seems to be the case in the dialogue between you and Sung, we end up going nowhere.
The argument from authority is always a sign of losing.
From: scientific-basis...@googlegroups.com <scientific-basis...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu>
Date: Monday, 27 February 2023 at 17:24
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Cc: scientific-basis...@googlegroups.com <scientific-basis...@googlegroups.com>
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Whit Blauvelt
> want to explain how SEC treats sin and evil. The Western tradition tends
> towards a dualistic apocalyptic model of good and evil and Eastern traditions
> also invoke a moral causality ending in a Kali Yuga.
"evil" and "original sin" -- although the sin in Genesis is eating from the
"Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil".
The usual notion of original sin is: each human being since Edin is a
sinner, so not about whether evil exists, but whether it is unavoidably in
us. In parallel, the usual notion of "suffering" as a translation of
"dukkha" is not a dispute about whether suffering exists, but about whether
all life includes such a degree of suffering that rather than truing the
wheel, our best goal should be to get off the wheel entirely.
So either there's this awful sinfulness in each of us, which we can only
escape through Jesus (and perhaps only in Resurection after an Apocalypse
destroys the Earth), or there's this awful suffering in each of us, we we
can only escape through Buddha (and perhaps may incarnation cycles of great
care to avoid karmic entailments -- emphasizing avoiding bad karma over
acquiring good).
Structurally, it's the same, the claimed inevitability of sin and suffering.
And both, taken that way, are religions of extinction. You've got a point
there. Yet neither all Christians nor all Buddhists take it that way.
As a Christian I believe in evil but not original sin; and as a Buddhist I
believe the wheel is out of true but not that it can never roll well.
Perhaps the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is not poison;
we just haven't completely digested it yet. Once we have, the wheel may roll
better.
Best,
Whit
Whit Blauvelt
> our lives. Buddhist’s 8 noble paths (Right Understanding, Right Thought, Right
> Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness and
> Right Concentration) with a chain of 12 links help us. If I break the chain
> just by ‘right thinking’, then yes my suffering is reduced immediately. You try
> and let me know if you are also able to do that.
Good point there. Do you have a favored description of "right thinking"? I
know (and value) the paths, but have never read the Dirgha-agama Sutra nor
otherwise looked closely at the 12 links.
The placement of "thinking" midway between "thought" and "speech" is
suggestive, as is having "speech" next to "action" (reference analytic
philosophy's "speech acts"). That continuous space, spanning from
understanding to action and then back around the wheel to where mindfulness
and concentration go back to understanding and thought....
My own experience may concur with yours here; of these 8 spokes of the
wheel, adjusting thought can be particularly rewarding. We might get into
what that means, and with what means. How are you working with the 12 links
in that?
Best,
Whit
Vasavada, Kashyap V
Dear Jo,
In U.S. You cannot go to medical school until you have 2 semesters of college level physics and also some math. It is understable if one forgets many details of previously studied subjects in which one did not specialize. Last time I studied Biology in college was in 1954/55. I have forgotten more biology than what I remember. But I do not engage in weeks long non sensical debate on biology with a biology or medical science professor!! Many of your arguments show zero level of knowledge of elementary physics. This current topic is a case in point.
My daughter and son-in-law are physicians. They remember fair amount of physics and math. in fact I have many discussions with them and grandchildren about physics and math puzzles. They participate quite intellectually in these.
Best
kashyap
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Vasavada, Kashyap V
Dear Jo,
OK! No more discussion of standing waves, then ceasefire is fine with me!!! There are lots of unknowns in neuroscience. So that discussion is of interest to me. I will read Travis’s paper in next few days. Dipole Dipole interaction is very common model in NMR and condense matter physics. We can discuss relation between Travis model and your model.
Best
kashyap
From: scientific-basis...@googlegroups.com <scientific-basis...@googlegroups.com>
On Behalf Of Edwards, Jonathan
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2023 12:46 PM
To: scientific-basis...@googlegroups.com
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Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal
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Vasavada, Kashyap V
Yes. It is well known that any reasonable function can be expressed as sum of sines and cosines (Fourier series). That doesn't mean very much. My point was that there are simple expressions containing sines and cosines for both travelling and standing waves which agree with experimental demonstrations. Most high school students understand this with the exception of a few people on these forums!!!
Best
kashyap
-----Original Message-----
From: cmhnunn via Biological Physics and Meaning <Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2023 4:22 AM
To: Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com
Cc: scientific-basis...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [External] Re: standing waves
You can model just about any waveform with sine wave interference. I think it was Feynman who showed that even the Dirac delta function can be modelled this way!
ChrisN
-----Original Message-----
From: biological-phys...@googlegroups.com <biological-phys...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Vasavada, Kashyap V
Sent: 27 February 2023 17:05
To: Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com
Cc: scientific-basis...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [External] Re: standing waves
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Whit Blauvelt
In my case "right thinking" is in the light of an idea I've long favored,
but which is also taking me years to more fully work out the implications
of: the idea that all talk in mind, all "inner" speech, is prospective,
never any inner homunculus speaking. Since we tend to identify with our
opinions, indeed form a "body of opinion" from them (also known as
"ideology"), this stance -- that "inner" speech is more accurately seen as
prospection, not introspection, leads to seeing that the apparent homunculus
comprised as the "body of opinion" is, to use your words "lack[ing] inherent
existence."
This decoupling from identity with opinions, of course, is also a common
experience in various meditations, such as by matra or breathing. It's also
at the core of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy's work, at least as the books
describe it. I also see it as congruent with Chuang Tzu's advice to "put the
mind out, take the world in" -- to take "inner" speech as instead forward
among the other prospects we contemplate, where we have objective distance
from it, and can align our self-continuity more with the senses -- as
meditation on breathing leads to, as can other mindfulness practices.
A lot of our society's political battles are about which planks go into
constructing the bodies of opinion which might occupy us, as if in
possession -- which mistaking bodies of opinion for ourselves enables. It's
not that bodies of opinion should be shunned. Sciences are in large part
bodies built of opinions selected for coherence -- what we're doing here.
It's rather the question of whether we should confuse any such body for our
own self, such that we're bound by its directives and limitations.
Best,
Whit
Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal
I agree, Whit. As long as our suffering is within normal range, it is fine and we don’t need to make effort to minimize it. However, if the suffering is more than the normal range, it is very useful to avoid clinging (through the right thinking) and break the chain of 12 links.
Rām
----------------------------------------------------------
Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.
Vision Research Institute Inc, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.
25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA
Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal
Researched at the University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
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Chris King
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Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal
On Feb 28, 2023, at 8:12 PM, Chris King <dhusharagmail.com> wrote:
Hi Ram and Whit,
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/scientific-basis-of-consciousness/B374DC46-A3BF-497F-8902-8B442D261FE2%40gmail.com.
Whit Blauvelt
> I agree, Whit. As long as our suffering is within normal range, it is fine and
> we don’t need to make effort to minimize it. However, if the suffering is more
> than the normal range, it is very useful to avoid clinging (through the right
> thinking) and break the chain of 12 links.
Freud advocated what you say now too. But I see there being greater purpose
to "right thinking" than minimizing the pain of suffering. Consider the bit
ChrisK quoted recently regarding the Japanese Buddhist view on the Buddha
Nature. perhaps "right thinking" at its best can enable us to align our
thoughts so that our Buddha Nature shines through.
We should want to true the Buddhist Wheel of the Law not just so that we
aren't jarred as we ride the cart, but because the cart can carry real joy.
To my mind, our moments of joy are themselves intrinsicly worth truing the
Wheel for. The whole translation of "dukkha" to "suffering" is taking a
narrow view of that. "Right thinking," we might hope, enables a wider view,
and real happiness, not just relief from sorrow.
Best,
Whit
Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal
Rām
----------------------------------------------------------
Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.
Vision Research Institute Inc, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.
25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA
Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal
Researched at the University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
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