RE: [External] What do we all agree upon?: working definition of consciousness
Vasavada, Kashyap V
Hi Ram,
I sort of agree under present level of understanding of consciousness with what you say except for
“Some mind-readers (such as Sai baba of Shirdi) are able to access this s-code by somehow converting the ns-code to s-code.”
I do not think any human being can read someone’s mind. So unless Saibaba of Shirdi was a fraud (which I have not heard about) like Satya Saibaba, most likely his disciples made up these stories of mind reading!!!
Best
kashyap
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I agree, Kashyap because the objective verification can access only 3pp-non_subjective (ns)-code but is unable to access the 1pp subjective (s) code even though the effective information (EI) is identical in both s and ns codes.
If future research is able to convert ns-code to s-code and/or allows us to read to s-code then we will able to verify consciousness objectively.
Some mind-readers (such as Sai baba of Shirdi) are able to access this s-code by somehow converting the ns-code to s-code.
The following explanation was posted before as a response to Vinod’s query.
To simplify the proposal of (Lahav and Neemeh, 2021) in <A Relativistic Theory of Consciousness>, suppose I am looking at red_rose to experience its color redness from my 1st person perspective (1pp), and you are measuring my related brain activity from my 3rd person perspective (3pp).
Let subjective (s)-aspect code as s-code and non-subjective (ns)-aspect as ns-code. In other words, for me, the same EI (effective information) is coded (i) as s-code, which I can experience from my 1pp and (ii) as ns-code, which you can measure from my 3pp using fMRI/EEG/MEG.
The s-code (my subjective experience (SE) redness of a red_rose) is not accessible to you.
You can access only ns-code (neural-physical activity (NPA) related to my SE redness) from my 3pp.
These two codes appear drastically different even though the EI is same in both codes.
Thus, you will never know my 1pp experience, my 1pp thoughts, &c. In this sense, it is private to me only. This is how we evolved for our survival.
In IDAM, we can interpret <the active dynamic self-as-subject (ADS: the “I”) experiences redness of red_rose> in terms of s-code and inseparable ns-code as follows:
The ns-aspect of EI (effective information) for <the self-related (SR) signals from CSMS (cortical and subcortical midline structures) interacting with the resultant of the interaction (matching/non-matching) between FF and FB signals> (SR*FF*FB) is coded as the ns-code.
Similarly, the s-aspect of EI for (SR*FF*FB) is coded as the s-code.
Metaphorically, the ADS reads the s-code from his/her 1pp to experience the redness of red_rose.
From (Friston, 2018) in <Am I Self-Conscious? (Or Does Self-Organization Entail Self-Consciousness?)>, one could argue that a conscious state is generated for consciousness[i] through
<the minimization of free_energy/surprises or resolving uncertainty through action>
= <(active/enactive) inference>
= <the collapse of superposed beable ontic dual-aspect states into a specific beable ontic dual-aspect state as a conscious state through the interaction/matching between stimulus-dependent feed-forward (FF) signals and cognitive memory-dependent feedback (FB) signals, in inseparable dual-aspect monism (IDAM) framework[ii]>.
[i] In IDAM (inseparable dual-aspect monism), the term “consciousness” is defined as a brain process that includes self, subjective experiences (SEs) of exogenous and endogenous stimuli, and the conscious component of cognition from the subject’s 1st-person perspective (1pp) as a subjective (s) aspect of a conscious state of a subject. Each component of consciousness has its own neural-physical basis (activity), which can be measured from the subject's 3rd-person perspective (3pp) as the inseparable non-subjective (ns) aspect of the same conscious state of the same subject. Consciousness is a latecomer in evolution.
[ii] The inseparable dual-aspect monism (IDAM or Dvi-Pakṣa Advaita) framework is a middle-way (between materialism and idealism) framework, where a state of an entity is a dual-aspect state with inseparable subjective (s) aspect and non-subjective (ns) aspect. The IDAM has five components, which are elaborated in the six articles: (Vimal, 2008b), (Vimal, 2010c), (Vimal, 2013), (Vimal, 2019b)/ (Vimal, 2022), (Vimal, 2016d), (Vimal, 2021), and summarized in (Vimal, 2022).
The IDAM (inseparable dual-aspect monism) framework is based on the two sources of highly reproducible and robust empirical and scientifically collected data related to a conscious state are:
(1) SE (subjective experience) from subject’s 1pp as the subjective (s) aspect of a conscious state of a subject and
(2) The related neural-physical activity (NPA) measured from the subject’s 3pp as the inseparable non-subjective (ns) aspect of the same conscious state of the same subject.
The NPA can be measured thru fMRI/EEG. However, none of the 100s of reported data show separability between s and ns aspects. Therefore, the inseparability between s and ns aspects is assumed. This leads to the inseparable DAM (IDAM) framework.
1pp: 1st person perspective
3pp: 3rd person perspective
In IDAM, we can logically extend the above s and ns aspects of a conscious state to all non-conscious states of all living and non-living entities including the primordial dual-aspect substrate (such as primal dual-aspect UIEF/UEIF or primal dual-aspect ZPF).
In other words, a state of such a non-conscious entity has protoconsciousness (pc) as the s-aspect and the related material/physical content as the inseparable ns-aspect.
For example, we can logically propose an electron-pc as the s-aspect of a state of an electron and MCS (mass, charge, spin) of an electron as the inseparable ns-aspect of the same state of the same electron.
What is electron-pc? We don’t know and we don’t have any empirical evidence either.
However, we argue that an electron with a negative charge metaphorically “experiences” repulsion or attraction toward the same or opposite charge, respectively. This metaphorical experience may be reflected as electron-pc.
Similarly, we can argue for pc as s-aspect in other non-conscious states of living and non-living entities.
A whole is more than the sum of its parts. So rock-pc of the whole rock may be different from its stone-pc of a part. There is well-know combination problem in panpsychism and panprotopsychims: (Wishon, 2017) in <Panpsychism, Panprotopsychism, and Neutral Monism>. To avoid this problem, I have used “emergence” in IDAM. This jargon is usually used but it needs to be unpacked, in analogy to unpacking the emergence of consciousness thru the collapse process, which is detailed in (Vimal, 2013).
We hypothesize that the emergence of consciousness as a “whole” from the complex combination of PCs as “parts” may be a viable possibility. This hypothesis may solve all three (subject, quality, and structural) subproblems of the combination problem of IDAM (Chalmers, 2016) and (Wishon, 2017); however, we need to unpack the term “emergence”.
Per (Goff et al., 2022), “Whereas panpsychists think that consciousness is fundamental and ubiquitous, panprotopsychists think that proto-consciousness is fundamental and ubiquitous.” It seems that the panpsychism framework has an explanatory gap problem: a stone does not have consciousness as we have; how can panpsychists explain it?
To address this problem, we could use panprotopsychism, which argues that “some fundamental physical entities have protophenomenal properties”. In other words, the stone might have protoconsciousness (rudimentary microconsciousness, such as microsubjects, microqualities, and microexperiential structure). However, then we have to address three aspects of the combination problem: (i) “how do microsubjects combine to yield macrosubjects?”, (ii) “how do microqualities combine to yield macroqualities?” and (iii) “how does microexperiential structure (and microphysical structure) combine to yield macroexperiential structure? To address these problems, one could use various levels of manifestations as done in the inseparable Dual-Aspect Monism (IDAM: Dvi-Pakṣa Advaita) and elaborated in (Vimal, 2021). Your comments will be highly appreciated.
It should be noted that a combination problem exists in panpsychism, panprotopsychism, neural monism, and IDAM. Strictly speaking, IDAM is neither panpsychism, panprotopsychism, nor neural monism because IDAM is inseparable dual-aspect monism, where a state of an entity has dual-aspect state with inseparable s and ns aspects and entity includes all living and non-living entity and also unmanifested state of primal entity (such as primal dual-aspect UIEF/UEIF or primal dual-aspect ZPF).
A fundamental postulate, in IDAM, is the extended superposition principle, which is based on the possibilities as in the quantum superposition principle. We use a step-by-step method for the different levels of manifestations. We will first follow (a) Bottom-up synthesis: primal level to wavicle level to nucleus level to atomic level to the molecular level to neural-network (NN) level to specific neural-physical activity (NPA) level and then (b) top-down analysis: MindBrain system Level to receptor level, primary cortical level, and association cortical level to NPA level. In addition, we use extended co-evolution, adaptation, and natural selection (ECoANs), the extended principle of superposition (EPS), the principle of interaction and emergence (PIE), and PES (principle of endosymbiosis).
Cheers!
Kind regards,
Rām
----------------------------------------------------------
Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.
Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research) and President
Vision Research Institute Inc, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.
Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal
Researched at the University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
On Wednesday, 26 July, 2023 at 01:17:52 pm GMT-4, Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu> wrote:
Hi Ram,
I believe they have all these. But there is no way to verify their self-certainty, SE, cognition etc.
Best
kashyap
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On Behalf Of Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal
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Subject: Re: [External] [SBoC-F] Re: What do we all agree upon?: working definition of consciousness
Hi Kashyap,
It includes all entities (including animals, birds, &c), which have self, SEs, and cognitions (such as thoughts, memory, attention, decision-making, &c) from their 1pp.
Cheers!
Kind regards,
Rām
----------------------------------------------------------
Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.
Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research) and President
Vision Research Institute Inc, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.
Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal
Researched at the University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
On Wednesday, 26 July, 2023 at 12:20:10 pm GMT-4, Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu> wrote:
Hi Ram,
Your definition will exclude conscious animals! There is no way to verify any of these criteria for animals whether they have or not!
Best
kashyap
From:
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On Behalf Of Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal
Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2023 12:01 PM
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Subject: [External] [SBoC-F] Re: What do we all agree upon?: working definition of consciousness
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Dear all,
Do we all agree on the following definition of consciousness?
Although there are over 40 definitions of consciousness as listed in(Vimal, 2009e), consciousness,
in general, includes self, subjective experiences (SEs) of exogenous and endogenous stimuli, and the conscious components of cognition from the subject’s 1st-person perspective (1pp).
Regards,
Ram
On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 3:21:05 PM UTC-4 Kushal Shah wrote:
Hi All, I am really tired of so much unnecessary disagreements on this group, which I think is partly a result of the email format which is not suitable for such discussions. Now while I can't redesign gmail, I think it might help to systematically collect some information to know if there is at least something that we all agree on.
So this email thread is not to start another debate, but to seek questions that I can add to a Google Form to collect information from each group member.
So if you have any suggestions for the Google Form questions, please share asap.
Thanks,
Kushal.
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Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal
Rām
----------------------------------------------------------
Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal
Researched at the University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
Hi Ram,
I sort of agree under present level of understanding of consciousness with what you say except for
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