RE: [External] [SBoC-F] Fwd: Your brain is deceiving you 🧠
Vasavada, Kashyap V
Grant,
I have mentioned perhaps hundreds of times that most important thing in physics/science is experimental, empirical observations by lots, sometimes hundreds and thousands of observers, preferably by well calibrated instruments. 1 PP thought of even Einstein is not worth a penny if it is rejected by experiments!! Although I am a theorist, I have to admit this! I think, theories of mind are not getting anywhere for thousands of years because of lack of experiments. One person’s experience is just not reliable for science. In fact there is no consensus even on little forums like these about what is mind and where it is located! Do you have answers for these questions? Luckily neuroscientists believe in experiments and they are advancing!!!
Best
kashyap
From: biological-phys...@googlegroups.com <biological-phys...@googlegroups.com>
On Behalf Of Grant Gillett
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2023 6:33 PM
To: Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [External] [SBoC-F] Fwd: Your brain is deceiving you
🧠
Yet it is mind that invents and cognitively refines the subject we call physics. Dodgson strikes again!
From:
biological-phys...@googlegroups.com <biological-phys...@googlegroups.com>
On Behalf Of Vasavada, Kashyap V
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2023 5:55 AM
To: sboc-...@googlegroups.com
Cc: Biological Physics and Meaning <Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: RE: [External] [SBoC-F] Fwd: Your brain is deceiving you
🧠
John,
NO! My assertion is that we know much more about physics than we know about “mind” ! Right now we are using physics for our discussion, not any of the thousands of vague models about “mind”!!! All of us use physics 24/7. Proof is in your house and society. Watch evening news!
Best
kashyap
From: sboc-...@googlegroups.com <sboc-...@googlegroups.com>
On Behalf Of John Kineman
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2023 3:43 PM
To: sboc-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [External] [SBoC-F] Fwd: Your brain is deceiving you
🧠
Correct, we do not know what is mind any more than we (including you) know what is physics. What we know are models, and we can model both in methodical ways that seem to increase our knowledge.
Where in this do you see criticism? Is it not a false idol that can be criticized by obvious truth?
John
On May 18, 2023, at 7:43 AM, Stanley A. KLEIN <skl...@berkeley.edu> wrote:
On the topic of "mind" it is useful to have a look at:
Stan
On Thu, May 18, 2023 at 6:01 AM Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu> wrote:
John and Avtar,
Then you admit that people do not really know what is mind!!! In that case why do you keep on criticizing physicists for dark energy concept?!
kashyap
From: sboc-...@googlegroups.com <sboc-...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of John Kineman
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2023 7:43 AM
To: sboc-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [External] [SBoC-F] Fwd: Your brain is deceiving you 🧠
Compare:
"You might say what about mind. That is a word coined by philosophers for which there is no consensus, what is it and where is it"
"You might say what about [dark energy]. That is a word coined by [physicists] for which there is no consensus, what is it and where is it"
John
On May 17, 2023, at 6:29 PM, Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu> wrote:
Avtar,
I am all for a good discussion on what is mind and where is it. In fact, in one of the Sunday learning meeting, I raised the same question. I found that no one could define what is mind or where it is. Is it inside our brain or in cosmos. So not only science and MSP but also NO ONE on this forum has any idea!!! I am prepared to be proven wrong.
Best
kashyap
From: 'Avtar Singh' via Scientific Basis of Consciousness Forum <sboc-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 7:35 PM
To: sboc-...@googlegroups.com
Cc: Biological Physics and Meaning <Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [External] [SBoC-F] Fwd: Your brain is deceiving you 🧠
Kashyap
Understanding brain may fall too short in understanding mind or consciousness that dominantly entail immeasurable phenomena.
MSP and science in general don’t even have a definition of mind or consciousness within the frameworks of the widely accepted scientific theories.
Humanity today is in dire need of understanding and improving mental health which is proven to be the root cause of the most fatal diseases. In order to progress science to help humanity, scientific methods must be extended to include the unmeasurable reality including introspection along with external material world measurements.
Science must also extend its mission to provide meaning and purpose to life and the universe. Science leading to a purposeless universe and life in it is a purposeless pursuit.
Best RegardsAvtar
Sent from my iPhone
On May 17, 2023, at 11:57 AM, Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu> wrote:
Avtar,
Deception by human brain is a very well known fact. Everyone on these forums should watch this video. But that is the only thing we have for thinking about and understanding outside world. In fact that is why scientists insist that 1 pp experiences are not reliable , even if they are from Einstein!! So we insist on averages of hundreds and thousands of observers preferably with repeatedly calibrated instruments.
You might say what about mind. That is a word coined by philosophers for which there is no consensus, what is it and where is it. At least brain you can see by cutting open or taking x ray or MRI pictures. You cannot see anything called mind! So conjectures about mind are going on for thousands of years without any verification. The fact is that neuroscientists are making some progress in understanding brain and in few years we will understand. Then all these conjectures will be trashed!!!
Best
kashyap
From: 'Avtar Singh' via Scientific Basis of Consciousness Forum <sboc-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 10:44 AM
To: Avtar Singh <sboc-...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [External] [SBoC-F] Fwd: Your brain is deceiving you 🧠
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Vasavada, Kashyap V
Brian,
Have you read Avtar’s and Sung’s papers? If you have and agree with them, let me know. Then we will discuss. Of all the people, you should know that people like Schrodinger, Heisenberg and Einstein who brought revolutions in physics were experts in classical physics. Especially Avtar’s theories violate Newton’ s third law which a high school student should know and he ignores them! His consciousness moves with v=c !! Sung’s theories also ignores well established physics. Of course if any physics Ph.D. agrees with them, I would reconsider my views. This is my challenge to them.
Best
kashyap
From: 'Brian Josephson' via Biological Physics and Meaning <Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2023 5:54 AM
To: Biological Physics and Meaning <Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [External] [SBoC-F] Fwd: Your brain is deceiving you
🧠
On Friday, 19 May 2023 at 18:27:52 UTC+1 vasavada wrote:
Hi Sung,
OK! I accept that present physics does not know everything! My only point to you and Avtar is that when you propose some new theory of biology or consciousness, make sure that it does not conflict with some very well established principles of physics for hundreds of years. So talk to some physicists to check if you are violating laws of physics!!
Best
kashyap
Let me tell you, people! If everyone followed that guidance, science would get stuck in a rut and never advance.
Brian
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