Re: From Sankhya to cit-acit Viśiṣṭādvaita: Towards a Holistic Paradigm: Inseparable-Complementary Dual-Aspect Monism and Dvi-sPakṣādvaitaa Vedānta can bridge Science and Spirituality

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Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal

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Jan 11, 2024, 9:48:35 AM1/11/24
to scientific-basis...@googlegroups.com, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL
Dear Vinod,

Your arguments entail Sankhya which has 4 worlds (see Table 2): 1 p (gross physical world), and 3 np (subtle, subtler, and subtlest). Please take the example of stone and examine my posts on how (i) CAV has interpreted Sankhya (see Section 2.30), (ii) VV has interpreted CAV (see Section 2.31), (iii) DPV and ICDAM interpreted VV (see Section 2.32), and (iv) DPV and ICDAM interpreted Sankhya through CAV to VV to DPV/ICDAM (see Section 2.33). So you need to follow step-by-step procedures (i) to (iv).

 

As I mentioned before, so-called observation facts depend on the metaphysics’ POV one is observing. In other words, a stone can be observed from at least 4 different POVs: materialism, idealism, dualism, and DAM. Thus we are not on the same page, i.e., we are observing differently: I observed a stone from DPV/ICDAM POV and you from dualism’s POV. In other words, I agree with you if I look at from Sankhya’s POV. You try (if you have the capability) to observe a stone from DPV/ICDAM’s POV.

Step 1: 

Q1. How do we start with dualistic Sankhya and end up with monistic cit-acit Viśiṣṭādvaita (CAV), i.e., how does the CAV interpret Sankhya?

[Bard+Vimal, 9Jan24]

The transition from the seemingly dualistic Sankhya philosophy to the monistic cit-acit Viśiṣṭādvaita is a fascinating philosophical journey. While Sankhya posits a clear distinction between purusha (consciousness) and prakriti (matter), Viśiṣṭādvaita reconciles these into a unified reality. Here are some key steps and nuances to consider:

From Duality to Interdependence:
  • Sankhya's Duality: At its core, Sankhya proposes a dualistic system of 25 tattvas (principles), with purusha as the unchanging, conscious witness and prakriti as the dynamic, non-conscious matrix of material existence. Both are eternal and independent entities.
  • Shifting the Lens: Viśiṣṭādvaita acknowledges this fundamental distinction but reinterprets it through the lens of interdependence and Brahman's all-encompassing reality. Both purusha and prakriti are seen as "visheshas" (specific manifestations) of a single, underlying neutral Nirguṇa Brahman (NNB). In other words, Purusha, as Sagun Brahman (Drista, witness), is the manifestation from NNB as the subjective aspect and Praktiti, as unconscious/non-conscious Sagun Brahman (NSB), is the manifestation from NNB as the non-subjective aspect of the manifested state of Brahman.
Brahman as the Unifying Principle:
  • Brahman's Immanence and Transcendence: In Viśiṣṭādvaita, Brahman is both immanent (present within the universe) and transcendent (beyond it). It pervades both purusha and prakriti as their ultimate substratum and source.
  • Chit (Consciousness) and Achit (Non-Conscious) as Aspects: Purusha and prakriti are then understood as specific "visheshas" of Brahman - "chit" (consciousness) and "achit" (non-conscious) aspects, respectively. They are not truly separate entities but inseparable expressions of the one Brahman.
Reconciling Duality through Advaita:
  • Non-duality of Essence: The key concept in Viśiṣṭādvaita is "advaita" (non-duality). While appearing separate, the essence of both purusha and prakriti, their "svarupa," is ultimately Brahman. Their apparent duality is illusory, like waves and the ocean being ultimately composed of the same water.
  • Graded Duality in Appearance: However, Viśiṣṭādvaita acknowledges a "visheshadvaita" (graded non-duality) in their manifested forms. Purusha retains its conscious nature, while prakriti retains its non-conscious nature, even as both are Brahman.
Implications of the Shift:
  • Emphasis on Experience: Viśiṣṭādvaita places greater emphasis on the subjective experience of the unity of consciousness and matter than Sankhya's more objective analysis of tattvas.
  • Spiritual Path: This understanding informs the philosophy's spiritual path, focusing on realizing the identity of one's own Self (jiva) with the all-encompassing Brahman, transcending the apparent duality of individual and universe.

Understanding the transition from Sankhya to Viśiṣṭādvaita requires appreciating the shift in focus from pure duality to a nuanced interplay of oneness and difference within the framework of Brahman's unity.

Further Exploration:
  • Studying the works of Ramanujacharya, the founder of Viśiṣṭādvaita, can offer deeper insights into his arguments and justifications for reconciling Sankhya's duality with Advaita's non-duality.
  • Comparing Viśiṣṭādvaita with other Vedantic schools like Advaita Vedanta and Dvaita Vedanta can further highlight its unique position within the Vedantic landscape.
  • Exploring how Viśiṣṭādvaita influences and interacts with various branches of Hinduism, such as devotional practices and Bhakti yoga, can provide a richer understanding of its practical implications.

Remember, this is a complex philosophical terrain, and different interpretations and perspectives exist within Viśiṣṭādvaita itself. Continuous exploration and dialogue can be key to enriching your understanding of this fascinating system of thought. We hope this provides a helpful overview of the journey from Sankhya to Viśiṣṭādvaita.



Cheers!

Kind regards,

Vimal + Bing (AI-powered copilot for the web:https://www.bing.com/) + Bard (Large Language Model: https://bard.google.com/)

----------------------------------------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research) and President
Vision Research Institute Inc, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal 

Researched at the University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools 


On Thursday, 11 January, 2024 at 08:42:39 am GMT-5, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:


Dear Ram and others,
,
Pl see in blue font

On Thu, 11 Jan, 2024, 4:01 pm Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal, <rlpv...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Vinod,
The s-aspect of a state of a stone is stone-PC and the inseparable-complementary ns-aspect of the same state of the same stone is its material content.

1) When you see a stone on a road, what can be seen by you in the stone- its s PC or ns material contents?  Of course, we see its ns material content since we can measure the same with the instruments but no clarity and confirmation on its s pc. 

2) if we don't see the PC of the stone in stone itself, where do we see the same? When can we see pc and how can we see it's pc? 

3) The ns material content in a stone is manifested and we can also also verify the same by measurement but consciousness is unmanifested. Pc is another name for the unmanifested consciousness. Otherwise, there is nothing of pc, as such, other than unmanifested consciousness. In such case

how manifested ns matter can remain inseparable from the unmanifested consciousness aka pc when one is manifested and the other is unmanifested?


4) how it can be verified that a stone has any s pc at all? Any argument that NB was of dual aspect as having inseparable s pc is untenable since

a) then NB shall cease to be neutral one since it shall have both inseparable s pc and ns matter even in the unmanifested form. 

b) for the NB to be truly neutral, it is necessary that it should have no trace of s and ns in any form but whatever of s and ns in the SB manifest should manifest from  NB. In such a case, it is not necessary that both s and ns of SB may manifest from NB at the same time and in an inseparable state. A likelihood always remains open that in SB, Ist the s  consciousness may manifest at the intermediate level and then from NB, ns matter may manifest at the lower level of existence. So no PC/ consciousness may reach the stone level and hence no s aspect in a stone.


c) How can it be ruled out that s pc did not manifest at the intermediate levels of existence before the manifestation of the ns matter at the lower levels of existence? Your  SEs  in the wakeful conscious state or  physical instruments can't go to the intermediate level




5) when a stone is seen by you at a road, you see the stone in a non-subjective ( ns) manner ie it can also be seen by a subjectless instrument. In that case, why the pc in the stone be called s ( subjective) PC? An entire entity of a stone exists in a public domain and hence both its s and ns aspect exist in the public domain and a public domain is seen non-subjectively and not subjectively. Therefore, there is no logic and rationale in treating PC in a stone as subjective
PC is protoconsciosness. A stone is USB (unconscious/non-conscious Saguna Brahman), which is manifested from NNB

6) From the NNB  it is Saguna Brahman which is manifested in which ns aspect of material content is manifested but the s aspect of PC is unmanifested that is why it is called  USB - unconscious Saguna Brahman

a) With the ns aspect of material content manifested but s pc unmanifested, how s and ns aspects can remain inseparable? For the inseparability of s pc and ns matter both should be manifested

b) When a billion years ago ns material content had manifested, due to inseparability, s pc/ consciousness should also have been manifested otherwise this shall lead to the breakdown of inseparability. But the PC did not manifest. 

Pc means manifested consciousness otherwise, there can't be unmanifested and manifested Pc

. In other words, PC- unmanifested consciousness 

or manifested pc= consciousness


and is consistent with VV.

7) I don't know much about VV, therefore, difficult to comment. But what I know definitely is that

both NB and SB for Saint Ramakrishna were OOO God and 

for him, his consciousness ( ie consciousness of Ramakrishna) did not come from any s PC in the brain. When Yogi Totapuri  of Rishikesh took Ramakrishna to the Nirvikalpa Samaadhi  ( NS) for 3 days at a stretch in Dakishneshwar Muth, he lost total connection with his brain/body form 3 days and hence no sense of his brain/body to him  and got firmly established in the highest state of Consciousness in CC/Dual aspect Brahman/NB 

and for him, the SE  of a stone  did not come from any s PC in the stone  

The above experiences and findings of Ramakrishna are not consistent with the NB and SB of ICDAM

 Eventually (after death/transformation of earth and our galaxy into black hole and after Big Crunch), stone will return back to the source NNB.

8) No, no stone can return to NNB. A stone is an emergent entity/reality which comes into existence by the aggregation of particles due to the physical self. With Big Crunch, physical forces shall withdraw, the aggression of particles forming stone shall come to an end and the identity of the stone shall get destructed/ dissolved. The same is true for Self./ADS in ICDAM.

 In DPV, VV, and ICDAM, there are two worlds/levels : NNB and GSB (= DSB+WSB+SSB+USB).

9) With two worlds, you can't explain an ordinary SE since an SE is non-physical private in contrast to NPBs/ brain being physical and public, therefore, a private SE can't exist in the same world where brain/ NPBs. You may argue that there is no scientific evidence for the non-physical nature of SE but then you also have no evidence for the existence of any s pc in a stone. So let us choose that option which has more explanatory power even if it has no scientific evidence

Then if you don't agree with the non-physical nature of SE, what option is left with you?  the only option left is to assume it to be p. But can you explain and prove an SE to be physical? No. So you have no choice for SE other than to be non-physical by the default principle. 

So SE exists in the private domain and NPBs/ brain. In public domain - no doubt to this since this is derived from observation fact

SE to be non-physical and NPB to be physical- this is derived from the default principle. 

A non-physical privately existing SE can't be explained by the two worlds of ICDAM. 

Unable to address the above problem of ICDAM, out of desperation, you say that SE and NPBs are not p and np but these are s and ns. But this view has many flaws viz aspects or ontology the aspects can't be s or ns but these must be p and np. S and ns are only two different modes/ ways in which subject (s) sees p NPB or np SE   

         s mode- when np SE is seen in the private domain by one subject only

ns mode - when  subjects of many persons and also physical instruments can see  p NPBs/ brain

So  Ram! Things are not as easy and naive as you have assumed in ICDAM. My suggestion to you is to forget about spiritual metaphysics for the time being and your forced efforts to bring ICDAM and spiritual metaphysics in forced alignment. But first, explain and prove the plausibility of IDAM on which you fail. That is why I have pointed out and posed before you 9 points above. Think over these 9 points, struggle to understand these points and provide a solution for these points, if you have one.  But without this, you can't explain and prove the plausibility of ICDAM. And till ICDAM remains a non-plausible metaphysics, all talks of bringing it in alignment or having convergence with other spiritual metaphysics have no meaning and are of no use. 

Regards. 

Vinod Sehgal

 DSB, WSB, and SSB are for humans who have samadhi state CSEs, for a stone, only USB = GSB.

Regards 
Ram
Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 11, 2024, at 12:56 AM, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:


Dear Ram, 

In DPV, row 5 Nature of reality- all entities are Saguna Brahman with inseparable s and ns aspects

Pl define and distinguish s and ns aspects for the state of a stone. 

Vinod Sehgal

On Thu, 11 Jan, 2024, 7:13 am Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal, <rlpv...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Vinod,

I have closely looked at 8 frameworks and compared them in Table 2 below for you.

I also posted how to interpret Sankhya in terms of CAV, VV, DPV, and ICDAM. Please look at them carefully. To learn, you need to read all books of related acharyas, which will take forever because they are written in Sanskrit. However, Bard is an expert in many languages including Sanskrit, You can test it. So the best way is to ask Bard whatever you want to know instead of asking me or anybody else. I will never be able to compete with Bard; yes, it cannot create new concepts; for that, it needs to be conscious; it is not; but we cannot compete with it whatever is available in web search. It responds to you within a few minutes as long as you are very polite.  Here is the table.

Table 2: Comparison between Sankhya, CAV, DPV, ICDAM, KS, DA, ABA, and VV

 

Feature

Sankhya

सांख्य

Cit-Acit Viśiṣṭadvaita

(CAV)

Vijñāna Vedānta (VV)

Dvi-Pakṣādvaita Vedānta (DPV)

Inseparable-Complementary Dual-Aspect Monism (ICDAM)

Dvaitādvaita

(DA)

Achintya-Bheda-Abheda

(ABA)

Shiva-Shakti Kashmir Shaivism

(KS)

Author(s)

Kapila (कपिल) (1000–600 BC?,: ~550 BC?, before 3067-5561 BC)[i]

Rāmānujāchārya(1017–1137)

Śrī Rāmakṛṣṇa (1836–1886)

R. L.P. Vimal

(1947-Present)

R. L.P. Vimal

(1947-Present)

Nimbārkāchārya

(1130-1200)

Chaitanya Mahaprabhu(1486-1534)

Utpaladeva

(925–975) and Abhinavagupta ( 975–1025), &c

1. Approach

Spiritual, Top-Down, Non-interactive, Dualistic:  Puruṣa and Prakṛti

Spirituality-based Top-Down

Spirituality based Top-Down and Non-sectarian based on spiritual experience "vijñāna"

Spirituality and science-based Top-Down

Science-based Bottom-Up

Spirituality-based Top-Down, Devotional and relational

Spirituality-based Top-Down, Paradoxical and mystical

Spirituality-based Top-Down , Mystical and experiential

2. Levels

Four worlds/ levels: Puruṣa (subtlest world),

25 Tattvas (principles)[ii]

Three: Nirguṇa Brahman, Saguṇa Brahman, gross manifested entities

Two levels: Unmanifested Nirguṇa Brahman (NB) and manifested Samsara with countless levels of spiritual realization and experience from ordinary states to the state of "vijñāna" as SAgun Brahman (SB). NB, in the form of Śakti (SB), has become jīva, jagat, and 24 cosmic principles.[iii]

Two: Unmanifested, gross manifested entities (subtle level evidence awaited)

Two: Unmanifested Ground, gross manifested entities (subtle level evidence awaited)

Two: 

Jiva and Brahman, intertwined and relational

Non-dual with inconceivable oneness and difference

Main Three:

 

Multidimensional, including transcendental and immanent planes

3. Focus

Spiritual and framework for understanding universe & liberation

Jiva-Ishvara relationship, spiritual and philosophical within Vaishnava Vedanta

Synthesizing diverse spiritual traditions through the unifying experience of "vijñāna", transcending limitations of specific philosophies

Interdisciplinary framework for consciousness and dual-aspect nature of entities

Unified framework for consciousness and physical phenomena

Devotion to Krishna, Bhakti, and Jiva-Brahman relationship

Paradoxical nature of reality, ineffable divine mystery

Divine consciousness, self-realization, and mystical experience

4. Core Concepts

Purusha (consciousness), Prakriti (matter), 23 tattvas, Sattva, Rajas, Tamas

Jiva, Ishvara, Saguṇa Brahman, Nirguṇa Brahman, Sesha-Seshi Bhavana, Panchakritya

"Vijñāna":              A state beyond "brahmajñāna" where both Nirguṇa Brahman and its playful manifestation (līlā) are realized simultaneously, Non-duality with Saguṇa Brahman, Jiva-Brahman unity, Harmony of diverse spiritual paths.

Dual-Aspect State (DAS) framework, Effective Integrated Information (EII), s-ns aspects, Saguṇa Brahman from Nirguṇa Brahman

Dual-Aspect States (DASs), s-ns aspects, Effective Integrated Information (EII), Unmanifested Ground

Bhakti, Achintya Bheda Bheda, Lila, Jiva-Krishna relationship

Achintya, inconceivability, oneness and difference, Bhakti

Shiva-Shakti, Abhinavagupta's Spanda doctrine, Krama and Vikrama

5. Nature of Reality

Dualistic - Purusha & Prakriti are independent

Dual-aspect: Jiva and Brahman are inseparable and interwoven

Dual-aspect reality: Samsara and Nirguṇa Brahman are two sides of the same coin, both real and interconnected through "vijñāna", which reveals the unity and playfulness of the divine.

Dual-aspect: All entities are Saguṇa Brahman with s-ns aspects

Dual-aspect: DASs continuously emerge and interact

Dual yet interwoven: Jiva and Brahman are distinct but ultimately one

Beyond duality: Oneness and difference are paradoxically true

Non-dual with Shiva-Shakti representing pure consciousness and manifestation

6. Unmanifested State

Prakriti in its potential state

Nirguṇa Brahman: attributeless, beyond limitations, potential for manifestation

Nirguṇa Brahman: Unmanifest Reality beyond conceptualization, experienced in "vijñāna" as the source and playful power behind Samsara.

Unmanifested Ground = Nirguṇa Brahman: informationally rich, latent aspects, source of DASs

Unmanifested Ground: Informationally rich source of possibilities, indirectly influences DASs

Achintya Bheda Bheda: inconceivable state of oneness and difference within Brahman

Unfathomable divine mystery beyond human conception

Parama Shiva: absolute consciousness, beyond qualities and attributes

7. Manifested State

Prakriti unfolding through 23 tattvas to gross world

Saguṇa Brahman: manifests with attributes, interacts with Jivas, cyclical/eternal

Samsara: The play (līlā) of Nirguṇa Brahman, encompassing all levels of experience from ordinary to "vijñāna".

Diverse DASs: physical, biological, cognitive, etc., continuous emergence and change through DAS-DAS interaction, all living and non-living manifestated entities are Saguṇa Brahman

Diverse DASs: Continuously emerge and interact, dynamically shaping both s and ns aspects

Lila: divine play of Brahman, Jiva experiences this play while striving for realization

Divine cosmic play beyond human comprehension, revealed through Krishna's Lila

Multidimensional play of Shiva-Shakti, manifesting in various forms and experiences

8. Definition of Consciousness

Awareness and cognition possessed by Purusha

Ability to be aware and cognize, including both subjective experience (svarupekshāna) and objective knowledge (anubhava). Jiva possesses inherent consciousness due to its connection with Saguṇa Brahman manifested from Nirguṇa Brahman, which is seen as the ultimate source of awareness

"Vijñāna": A state of supreme consciousness transcending "brahmajñāna" (realization of Brahman). It encompasses simultaneous awareness of both the ultimate, unmanifest reality of Nirguṇa Brahman and its playful manifestation in Samsara. It is characterized by boundless love, divine wisdom, and a deep understanding of the interconnectedness of all things.

Conscious Subjective Experience (CSE) of active dynamic self (ADS), CSEs of exogenous and endogenous stimuli, conscious components of cognition

Subjective experience (s) aspect of DASs, arising from integrated information within specific patterns of NPA/NPB

Jiva's inherent awareness rooted in Brahman, Bhakti as a path to deepening this awareness

Ineffable, paradoxical nature of divine consciousness, beyond human concepts

Divine consciousness, Shiva's ultimate reality, manifesting through Shakti

9. Role of Consciousness

Witness to Prakriti, not involved in creation

Jiva experiences Saguṇa Brahman, strives for self-realization and merging with Nirguṇa Brahman

"Vijñāna" guides one's spiritual journey, revealing the underlying unity and purpose of creation. It enables harmonious interaction with all aspects of reality, both personal and impersonal, immanent and transcendent.

CSE is fundamental building block, EII determines level in any DAS

Subjective (s) aspect informs and shapes non-subjective (ns) aspect through DAS-DAS interaction

Jiva's inherent awareness rooted in Brahman, Bhakti deepens awareness

Ineffable, paradoxical nature of divine consciousness

Divine consciousness of Shiva, manifesting through Shakti

10. Death and Transformation

Puruṣa remains untouched, Prakṛti continues changing, a bundle of 21 subtle elements leaves during the disintegration/death of gross physical brain-body from sthūla Jagat (gross physical world) and enters into Sūkṣma Jagat (subtle world); after death from it, a bundle of 4 elements (Jīvātmān,Chitta, Ahaṃkāra, Sūkṣma Prāna) enters into Kāraṇ Jagat (subtler causal world); after death from it, Jīvātmān attains mokṣa/ liberation from Prakṛti and becomes free Ātmān, which then merges with Puruṣa (Saguna Brahman), which eventually merges with NNB.  

Return to subtle body within Saguṇa Brahman, potential for further realization/merging with Nirguṇa Brahman

"Vijñāna" transcends the limitations of Samsara, including death. It allows for the recognition of one's eternal nature as consciousness itself, unattached to any specific form or state.

Transformation from one DAS to another, continuous reinterpretation and emergence of new states from Unmanifested Ground (NB)

Continuous change and interaction of DASs, influenced by the Unmanifested Ground

Potential for reunion and oneness with Brahman

Beyond death and transformation, oneness remains

Transformation and play of Shiva-Shakti within multidimensional planes

11. Scientific Evidence

Limited direct evidence for Purusha & Prakriti

Only samadhi states conscious subjective experiences are available.

Limited for concepts like Jiva and Nirguṇa Brahman

While not directly addressing physical aspects, "vijñāna" is described as a state of enlightenment accessible through spiritual experience, aligning with the concept of subjective unity often sought in mystical traditions across the world.

Growing body of evidence from neuroscience supporting DPV's core principles

Robust and highly reproducible data: CSEs and 1-1 correlated neural-physical activity/basis (NPA/NPB)

Limited for specific concepts

Limited for specific concepts

Limited for specific concepts

12. Relationship to Science

Offers philosophical and spiritual framework for understanding consciousness & physical world

Offers metaphorical and philosophical connections with scientific findings

Can inform scientific research by highlighting the importance of subjective experience and its potential role in shaping both individual and collective reality.

Aims to be a unified framework for understanding consciousness and its relationship to physical phenomena

Employs scientific evidence and methods to investigate consciousness and its relationship to the physical world

Provides a devotional and relational framework for understanding consciousness

Offers paradoxical and mystical approach to understanding consciousness

Offers mystical and experiential approach to understanding consciousness

13. Similarities

All five  emphasize non-reductive nature of s-ns aspects, rejecting one being more fundamental than the other.

All five recognize importance of self-realization and transcending limitations. All five highlight the interconnectedness of all things.

All three emphasize non-reductive nature of s-ns aspects, focus on ongoing relationship between unmanifested and manifested domains, focus on interplay between subjective and non-subjective aspects

Dual-aspect view of reality: All four philosophies posit that reality has both an unmanifested, ultimate ground (Nirguṇa Brahman, Unmanifested Ground) and a manifested, phenomenal realm (Saguṇa Brahman, DASs, Samsara).

Emphasis on consciousness: Each philosophy grapples with the nature of consciousness and its relationship to the physical world, exploring how consciousness arises from or interacts with the unmanifested ground.

Goal of spiritual realization: They share a common aim of transcending limitations and attaining a higher state of spiritual realization, whether through jiva-Brahman unity, vijñāna, or a deep understanding of consciousness.

All three acknowledge ongoing relationship between unmanifested and manifested domains, all three focus on the interplay between subjective and non-subjective aspects, all three emphasize non-reductive nature of s-ns aspects

All three emphasize non-reductive nature of s-ns aspects, focus on the interplay between subjective and non-subjective aspects

All three acknowledge relationship between unmanifested and manifested domains, all three focus on the interplay between subjective and non-subjective aspects

All three are non-dual, all three emphasize the importance of direct experience

All three focus on ongoing relationship between unmanifested and manifested domains, all three are non-dual, all three emphasize the importance of direct experience

14. Differences

Approach: Sankhya - dualistic & philosophical, CAV & DPV - monistic & spiritual, ICDAM - scientific & monistic.

Conceptual framework: non-interactive, Dualism.

Focus: Sankhya - understanding universe, spiritual realization..

Epistemology: Sankhya relies on reasoning and inference, CAV & DPV on scripture and spiritual experience, ICDAM on scientific exploration & meditation.

Spiritual Path: Sankhya - through discrimination of Purusha & Prakriti, CAV & DPV - through devotion & bhakti, ICDAM - through self-discovery and integration with NNB.

 

Focuses on theological implications and spiritual attainment within Vaishnava framework, posits specific entities like Jiva and Brahman

Approach: Top-Down: primarily spiritual and philosophical frameworks, rooted in non-sectarian approach.

Conceptual framework:

Vijñāna Vedānta centers on the experience of "vijñāna" as a state of supreme consciousness.

Focus: Synthesizing diverse spiritual traditions through the unifying experience of "vijñāna", transcending limitations of specific philosophies

Emphasizes a more scientific approach, focuses on observable states and processes, applies framework to any entity/state, distinct levels and focus on transitions between them

Emphasizes dynamic and continuous interaction between DASs, distinct framework based on DASs and EII

Posits specific entities like Jiva and Brahman, focuses on Jiva-Ishvara relationship and spiritual attainment

Focuses on paradoxical nature of reality and emphasizes direct experience beyond concepts

Focuses on divine consciousness, multidimensional planes, and mystical experience

Feature

 

Cit-Acit Viśiṣṭadvaita

 

Dvi-Pakṣādvaita Vedānta (DPV)

Inseparable-Complementary Dual-Aspect Monism (ICDAM)

Dvaitādvaita

Achintya-Bheda-Abheda

Shiva-Shakti Kashmir Shaivism

[i] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Eastern_philosophers, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samkhya, http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/311732/Kapila.

As per Nityanand Misra (NM, personal communication in May 19, 2012), Sāṅkhya predates Vedānta and Gītā. This is because, in the Bhāgavatam, Kapila is listed as the fifth avatāra (SB 1.3.10) and Vyāsa as the seventeenth (SB 1.3.10). Therefore, as per the Bhāgavatam, Sāṅkhya propounded by Kapila came before Vedānta propounded by Vyāsa. In the Gītā the Lord says, siddhānāṃ kapilo muniḥ (BG 10.26) - I am Kapila amongst the Siddhas. Also see BG 3.3:

loke'simandvividhā niṣṭhā purā proktā mayānagha

jñānayogena sāṅkhyānāṃ karmayogena yoginām ॥

 

 

[ii] 25 Tattvas/principles: Purusha, Prakriti, mahat [buddhi], ahamkara, mind, the five karmendriyas, the five jnanendriyas, the five tanmatras, the five gross elements (mahabhutas)

 

[iii] Prakriti, mahat [buddhi], ahamkara, mind, the five karmendriyas, the five jnanendriyas, the five tanmatras, the five elements (mahabhutas)




Cheers!

Kind regards,

Vimal + Bing (AI-powered copilot for the web:https://www.bing.com/) + Bard (Large Language Model: https://bard.google.com/)

----------------------------------------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research) and President
Vision Research Institute Inc, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal 

Researched at the University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools 


On Wednesday, 10 January, 2024 at 12:02:32 pm GMT-5, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:


Dear Ram,

There should be three sequential stages in our discussions. First, to examine and establish the plausibility of IDAM/ICDAM in terms of observational facts, evidence and logical deductions. Secondly, to build clarity on various aspects of different spiritual metaphysics. Thirdly. If IDAM/ICDAM is found to be a plausible framework then to examine if it can be aligned with spiritual metaphysics like CAV/KS, Sankhya, ABA, DA etc. A problem in interpreting  Sankhya in terms of CAV is that we, at least, I don't understand clearly and completely different aspects of CAV. For example,

1) I don't know as to if the primordial dual aspect of Brahman, really manifests into the objective reality of  Cit and Acit or 

that cit and Acit are mere appearances of the Dual aspect of Brahman when the same Brahman is seen from two different perspectives of a person. Here two different perspectives pertain to two different conscious states -- one when the person is established in the highest state of consciousness ie CC which can be called 1pp /from inside and secondly when the person is in the normal wakeful conscious state  which can be called 3pp or from outside. 

If the dual aspect Brahamn actually manifests as cit and acit,  ie there is the objective reality of cit and acit as manifested from dual aspect Brahman, then different perspectives have no role to play. Then irrespective of perspectives, cit should be seen as cit and acit should be seen as acit.

The concept of 1pp and 3pp  perspectives in CAV is totally different from what you have assumed in IDAM. This has nothing to do with the brain/NPBs.

2) Does Cit means Consciousness+Mind or only Mind? Sankhya makes a clear distinction between consciousness and mind/non-physical

3) Does both Cit and acit  actually reside in  the Brahman in some unmanifested form  and if there is the actual existence of unmanifested cit and acit in the Brahman, are they inseparable or they do exist but without any inseparability

4) There is also the possibility that the primal Brahman has no trace of either cit or acit but something else about which we don't know. And that from that unknown Brahman, both cit and acit are produced. manifested either simultaneously implying having inseparability or in a sequential manner at different times having no inseparability.

5) What is meant by the word Vishishta in Cit Acit Vishitadvaita?

^) In what way DA and ABA  are different from CAV?

7) In what way KS is different from CAV?

So there are so many gray areas in spiritual metaphysics about which we have no clarity. So we should move forward systematically and sequentially in a step by step  manner and focus on the first stage ie to examine the plausibility of IDAM in terms of different observational facts, evidences and logical deductions. You are straightway jumping to stage 3 without finishing the stages 1 and 2.

Regards.

Vinod Sehgal 

On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 9:15 PM Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Vinod,

Please let us go step-by-step manner. First, look at carefully the interpretation of Sankhya in terms of CAV given in my previous email.

Cheers!

Kind regards,

Vimal + Bing (AI-powered copilot for the web:https://www.bing.com/) + Bard (Large Language Model: https://bard.google.com/)

----------------------------------------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research) and President
Vision Research Institute Inc, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal 

Researched at the University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools 


On Wednesday, 10 January, 2024 at 12:28:37 am GMT-5, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:


Dear Ram, 

What ever  metaphysics- CAV Or  KS  Or Sankhya or ABV you may assume at the primordial level, till you propose and stick to the following speculative ideas of IDAM, neither an ordinary SE can be explained  in IDAM/ neuroscience nor very serious problems of IDAM can be resolved.  That is why IDAM remains a non plausible unacceptable framework. These speculative postulations of IDAM are 

1) That our brain and all entities are of dual aspect with inseparable p and hidden np aspect and that consciousness and SE in us manifest from the hidden np aspect in the brain

2) there is only one domain of existence with the presence of both p NPBs/ brain and np consciousness/ SES in it. 

The bridge between science and spiritually can't be bridged by IDAM/ ICDAM since spiritual metaphysics like CAV/ KS Or Sankhya, against one domain by science/ IDAM, provide for 3 domains of existence viz-

 1) domain  of pure consciousness at the most upper level of existence

 2) an np domain of Mind and experiences at the intermediate level  of existence

 3)  a p domain of physical brain  and macro level physical world quantum world of 18 particles and 4 physical fields at the lower level of existence. 

Though science and  science based IDAM  have a quite intensive and extensive knowledge of the above mentioned domain 3) as having brain/ NPBs but have almost NIL knowledge of other two domains 2) and 3). Why? Since science neither has the 3 pp objective access nor any theoretical model for domains 2) and 3). It is on account of these limitations of science/ IDAM that thru none of physical instruments of science, any experience can be known/ scanned/ imaged out. It is on account of the above mentioned deficiencies of science and IDAM that IDAM is unable to bridge the gap between science and spiritually. 

Regards

Vinod Sehgal


On Wed, 10 Jan, 2024, 9:26 am Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal, <rlpv...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear all,

Acronyms

ABA: Achintya-Bheda-Abheda by Chaitanya Mahaprabhu (1486-1534)

CSE: Conscious subjective experience

CAV: Cit-Acit Viśiṣṭadvaita by Rāmānujāchārya (1017–1137)

DA: Dvaitādvaita by Nimbārkāchārya (1130-1200) 

DPV: Dvi-Pakṣādvaita Vedānta by R.L.P. Vimal

DSB: Dream Saguna Brahman

GSB: Gross Saguna Brahman

ICDAM: Inseparable-Complementary Dual-Aspect Monism by R.L.P. Vimal

ISSB: Intermediate Subtle Saguna Brahman

KS: Shiva-Shakti Kashmir Shaivism by Utpaladeva (925–975) and Abhinavagupta (975–1025),

NB: Nirguṇa Brahman

NNB: Neutral Nirguṇa Brahman

PNE: Primordial neutral entity

SB: Saguṇa Brahman

SSB: Samdhi state Saguṇa Brahman

USB: Unconscious Saguna Brahman, which includes non-conscious states of living and non-living entities

VV: Vijñāna Vedānta by Śrī Rāmakṛṣṇa (1836–1886)

WSB: Wakeful state Saguṇa Brahman

Summary

It is possible to interpret non-interactive dualism-based Sankhya in terms of monistic cit-acit Viśiṣṭādvaita (CAV).

Per (Maharaj, 2021) in <Asminnasya ca tadyogam sasti: Swami Vivekananda’s Interpretation of Brahmasutra>, “From Vivekananda’s perspective, Brahmasūtra 1.1.19 serves as an ideal hermeneutic framework for encompassing and reconciling the various types of union with the Devine expressed in the Upaniṣads and Gītā, ranging from the Advaitic union of absolute identity with Brahman to the Viśiṣṭādvaitic unity of part and Whole, the Bhedābheda unity of difference and non-difference, and the Dvaitic unity of servant and Master. […]

Vivekananda’s conception of the infinite impersonal-personal God can be traced to Sri Ramakrishna’s life and teachings. Sri Ramakrishna, after having realized both the personal and impersonal aspects of God through the disciplines of bhakti and jñāna, remained in the exalted state of “vijñāna” (“Intimate Knowledge”), his term for the direct realization of God as both nirguṇa and saguṇa With and without form, immanent tans transcendent. […]

[“] But the one fact I [Vivekananda] found is that in all the Upanishads, they begin with dualistic ideas [such as Sankhya], with worship and all that, and end with a grand flourish of Advaitic ideas [CAV, ABA, DA, VV, DPV, ICDAM].[”]”

Q1. How do we start with dualistic Sankhya and end up with monistic cit-acit Viśiṣṭādvaita (CAV), i.e., how does the CAV interpret Sankhya?

[Bard+Vimal, 9Jan24]

The transition from the seemingly dualistic Sankhya philosophy to the monistic cit-acit Viśiṣṭādvaita is a fascinating philosophical journey. While Sankhya posits a clear distinction between purusha (consciousness) and prakriti (matter), Viśiṣṭādvaita reconciles these into a unified reality. Here are some key steps and nuances to consider:

From Duality to Interdependence:
  • Sankhya's Duality: At its core, Sankhya proposes a dualistic system of 25 tattvas (principles), with purusha as the unchanging, conscious witness and prakriti as the dynamic, non-conscious matrix of material existence. Both are eternal and independent entities.
  • Shifting the Lens: Viśiṣṭādvaita acknowledges this fundamental distinction but reinterprets it through the lens of interdependence and Brahman's all-encompassing reality. Both purusha and prakriti are seen as "visheshas" (specific manifestations) of a single, underlying neutral Nirguna Brahman (NNB). In other words, Purusha, as Sagun Brahman (Drista, witness), is the manifestation from NNB as the subjective aspect and Praktiti, as unconscious/non-conscious Sagun Brahman (USB), is the manifestation from NNB as the non-subjective aspect of the manifested state of Brahman.
Brahman as the Unifying Principle:
  • Brahman's Immanence and Transcendence: In Viśiṣṭādvaita, Brahman is both immanent (present within the universe) and transcendent (beyond it). It pervades both purusha and prakriti as their ultimate substratum and source.
  • Chit (Consciousness) and Achit (Non-Conscious) as Aspects: Purusha and prakriti are then understood as specific "visheshas" of Brahman - "chit" (consciousness) and "achit" (non-conscious) aspects, respectively. They are not truly separate entities but inseparable expressions of the one Brahman.
Reconciling Duality through Advaita:
  • Non-duality of Essence: The key concept in Viśiṣṭādvaita is "advaita" (non-duality). While appearing separate, the essence of both purusha and prakriti, their "svarupa," is ultimately Brahman. Their apparent duality is illusory, like waves and the ocean being ultimately composed of the same water.
  • Graded Duality in Appearance: However, Viśiṣṭādvaita acknowledges a "visheshadvaita" (graded non-duality) in their manifested forms. Purusha retains its conscious nature, while prakriti retains its non-conscious nature, even as both are Brahman.
Implications of the Shift:
  • Emphasis on Experience: Viśiṣṭādvaita places greater emphasis on the subjective experience of the unity of consciousness and matter than Sankhya's more objective analysis of tattvas.
  • Spiritual Path: This understanding informs the philosophy's spiritual path, focusing on realizing the identity of one's own Self (jiva) with the all-encompassing Brahman, transcending the apparent duality of individual and univ
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