RE: [External] Re: [SBoC-F] Radin's recent paper
Vasavada, Kashyap V
Hi Hal,
Present day science, quite successful may I say, is based on repeatable phenomena. If some thing is not repeatable it is filed for future if some one else finds similar phenomenon. It is not published, but occasionally people do give presentation in society meetings to establish priority claims!! Many many non-repeatable discoveries are ignored forever. Thus it is impossible to accept 1 PP experience of 1 person or even several people. Comparing experiences of 1000 people is not the same as 1000 people looking at EEG , fMRI of one person and drawing conclusions. Since human mind is notoriously unreliable (even Einstein’s!!) we have (and even judiciary and politics these days) have to rely on instruments.
Understanding statistics in paranormal experiments is quite important. At present I am somewhat uncertain whether 5 sigma in paranormal has the same significance as 5 sigma in natural sciences. I am trying to understand. If you have time and interest, I can send some papers which Dean informed me about,. Then we can discuss them further.
Physicists are quite clear about quantum entanglement in physics. Whether it can be applied to human minds or not is a big if!
Best
kashyap
From: biological-phys...@googlegroups.com <biological-phys...@googlegroups.com>
On Behalf Of Hal Cox
Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2023 11:39 AM
To: Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [External] Re: [SBoC-F] Radin's recent paper
Thanks Kashyap,
I thought I might be implying a mistaken attitude about the Bell experiments, and thank you for your comments. I do not want to confound the physics with the reported psi phenomena, but I do want to evaluate the statistical methods of analyses, both historically and prospectively.
When you are only concerned about repeatable phenomena, perhaps you should ignore the unrepeatable, non-stationary data of anecdotal reports?
This seems to be a large hangup and waste of your time in discussion with others. Why mention them?
They have no scientific value on a case by case basis.
(we can argue separately about their aggregate effects of such cases on human behavior and beliefs, but that is a task for sociology and anthropology, and any physics of those subjects that might be relevant; however they are subjects neglected in these forums. what we have is a population of causally constrained agents who do not believe their agency is causally constrained. that is strange, isn’t it?)
If you are not only concerned with repeatable phenomena, then you may seek a physically sensible treatment of experimental nonstationary events, and face the music to define tests for causality violations with your best extant theory.
If your community of experimentalists cannot do that, then there is something fishy with your theory, something incomplete or, shall we say, indeterminate(haha!)?
Hal
On Sat, May 13, 2023 at 5:17 PM Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu> wrote:
Dear Hal,
Causality violations can be very tricky to detect. I am looking at some telepathy papers suggested by Dean. So far, I am finding different conclusions from similar data in different samples. BTW I am not sure the sigma values claimed by psi data analysis can be compared to sigma values in natural science. In telepathy studies, they routinely quote sigmas of 5 to 8. Scientists should closely look into this. As I frequently say, 5 sigma is enough to give Nobel Prizes in physics. In more than 120 years, there is no case in which physics Nobel prizes were withdrawn or doubts raised about physics behind them.
Bell type experiments can be completely explained by usual QM. v<= or >c signals or causality violations are not needed. As I said several times, people misunderstand the word nonlocality. Non locality as in far away objects is ok, non-locality as in v>c is not needed.
Best
kashyap
From: biological-phys...@googlegroups.com <biological-phys...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Hal Cox
Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2023 6:35 PM
To: Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [External] Re: [SBoC-F] Radin's recent paper
Dear Kashyap,
Detection of violations of causality in biometric time series with 2 or more individuals gathered together would be the detection of paranormal phenomena, without boring repetitions.
If there is no paranormal there will be no violations in biometric time series with respect to causality.
Detecting acausal phenomena in the time series will represent detection of paranormal.
The question is what part of Bell inequality violation experiments are wrong if causality may be violated by non-local connections?
Hal
PS
It is true that mother and child have entangled electrodynamics shared between their brains by a common magnetic field generated by mother’s heart. Can non-local acausal phenomena between mother and child be detected?
Probably. You would have to go out on a limb to ignore the phenomena.
On Sat, May 13, 2023 at 12:40 PM Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu> wrote:
Dear Hal,
If the paranormal phenomena are not reproducible and not subject to 3 PP high statistics which are principal requirements for science, then they cannot be investigated by scientific method. These beliefs have been going on for hundreds of years. So, if the believers in paranormal want scientists to believe in them, they have to follow scientific methods I do not see any other choice. All the believers use science 24/7. Whether they believe in it or not. It is about time they understand scientific method. Otherwise, anecdotal stories, a woman in London knew future, someone in California could see what is going on in New York or a military installation in China, a child born in Calcutta knew his previous birth etc. etc. will continue forever!!! That is why I am quite interested in Radin’s experiments and analysis. I asked him about 5 situations in paranormal. He gave good no nonsense answers like what a scientist should do, unlike some people on these forums who pretend to be scientists!!!
Best
kashyap
From: biological-phys...@googlegroups.com <biological-phys...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Hal Cox
Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2023 12:26 PM
To: Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [External] Re: [SBoC-F] Radin's recent paper
Dear Kashyap,
The interesting problems and phenomena in paranormal reports are mostly not reproducible in general, it seems to me.
What is reproducible in Dean’s practice is a body of statistical interpretations, not physical experiments.
When humans are enlisted for boring repetitions you should only expect they will lose interest.
Consider 2 humans in their MRI scanners, with the mind reading AI watching them and prompting them with stimuli, inputs, entertainments, whatever.
Many normal (even repetitive) experiments will be of interest to a range of social psychologists.
Let them do their thing.
But please define the scientific paradigms needed for causal analysis that should be established for that research as both
a) guardrails
b) alarms
to prevent experimental errors and, if errors may be ruled out, to detect paranormal phenomena.
You do not have a statistical method for detecting paranormal in time series of data of multiple human electrodes on multiple human craniums without repetitions, and it is under those conditions that most synchronies arise.
You could usefully examine your implicit, unstated statistical assumptions for any experimental systems you might entertain.
They may include stationarity in the physical processes, since your goal is to find them. What about the non stationary process?
From of physical mathematical statistical point of view the online analysis of thIs class of experiments with the challenge to detect causal violations is rather more challenging for experimentalists to rigorously define than classical repeated experiments and of course appears to be mysteriously similar to the optical experiments that Joshua is working on in Auckland.
Hal
On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 1:39 PM Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu> wrote:
Dear Hal,
It is interesting to know that with the help of fMRI, AI is close to reading people’s mind. I do not understand how it disproves anything I said “ experience of a single human mind is unreliable to change laws of nature”. We need hundreds of observers with instruments to consider change in laws of nature! Do you disagree?
Best
kashyap
From: sboc-...@googlegroups.com <sboc-...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Hal Cox
Sent: Monday, May 8, 2023 12:50 PM
To: Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com
Cc: Scientific Basis of Consciousness Forum <sboc-...@googlegroups.com>; The Peace infrastructure Project <peace-infrastr...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [External] Re: [SBoC-F] Radin's recent paper
Dear Kashyapji,
Thank you for provoking this interesting discussion.
Tim Holborn recently made note of this as a topic of evident concern for those worried about humans re AI risks and loss of human centric philosophy in a machine based corporate age:
Better said: AI & MRI can read your thoughts.
As neuroimaging, including EEG, is applied to human interactions, it seems that your assumptions will be overturned, whether about psi or ordinary psychology, the paranormal or the normal.
For other reasons also, we can expect a paradigm change, but it will be essential for statistical physics to sort out the useful criteria to support the new paradigm.
Multi-scale entropy? Non-extensive statistics? Tsallis entropy?
Hal
On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 8:48 AM 'Dean Radin' via Biological Physics and Meaning <Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
> Science cannot do anything with personal experiences of psi such as I was thinking about my friend and he/she called or I see lakes and mountains where my friend is located or spoon bending etc.!!
Science not only can, but has done an enormous amount of systematic empirical studies on these kinds of experiences, starting formally since 1882. Studies have been published in many mainstream journals, including Nature and Science. The fact that many scientists are unaware of this literature serves to remind us that scientific and scholarly disciplines are deeply siloed, and as a result it is not possible to know everything about what other scientists are investigating. That calls for humility in the face of our ignorance.
best wishes,
Dean
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Dean Radin MS PhD DSc (h.c.) (deanradin.com)- Chief Scientist, Institute of Noetic Sciences (noetic.org)
7250 Redwood Blvd., Suite 208, Novato, CA 94945-3271 USA
- Associated Distinguished Professor, California Institute of Integral Studies (ciis.edu)- Associate Editor, Explore (www.sciencedirect.com/journal/explore)
- Chairman, Cognigenics Inc. (cognigenics.io)
On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 9:39 AM Michelle McGee <celebr...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Kashyap,
Respectfully, I disagree.
One straw man attack (Radin v du Tertre?... i have no evidence, nor intuition, that this is a necessary division)
plus double exclamation point
does not equal sound reasoning.
On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 10:50 AM Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu> wrote:
Cathy,
Thanks for linking MSE article. I do not yet understand very well Radin's paper. But such large statistics research is very important for science of consciousness. We should discuss this paper. Science cannot do anything with personal experiences of psi such as I was thinking about my friend and he/she called or I see lakes and mountains where my friend is located or spoon bending etc.!!
Best
kashyap
-----Original Message-----
From: 'Cathy Reason' via Scientific Basis of Consciousness Forum <sboc-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 8, 2023 9:26 AM
To: sboc-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [External] Re: [SBoC-F] Radin's recent paper
From: 'Dean Radin' via Biological Physics and Meaning
To: Biological-Phys...@googlegroups.com
Cc: sboc-...@googlegroups.com
<<Read the article.>>
The Multi-Scale Entropy algorithm is described here:
https://archive.physionet.org/physiotools/mse/tutorial/tutorial.pdf
Cathy
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Dean Radin
- Dean Radin MS PhD DSc (h.c.) (deanradin.com)
- Associated Distinguished Professor, California Institute of Integral Studies (ciis.edu)
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