taxpayers continue to suffer

0 views
Skip to first unread message

Bluejay

unread,
Feb 2, 2003, 11:13:34 AM2/2/03
to
To all the people who still want to explore space:

Do so with your own funds. Let private corporations come up with the
billions upon billions of dollars needed to fund and complete the ISS.
Trillions of U.S. taxpayer money has been wasted so far. Don't use the money
of hard-working Amercians to realize these extravagant utopian dreams. It is
insane to spend this kind of money with wild abandon when there are more
important problems down on Earth that need attention.
I was fascinated with the space shuttle growing up but now as an adult my
views of NASA aren't as innocent and real life problems on the ground take
far more precedence.


Dave

unread,
Feb 2, 2003, 11:19:10 AM2/2/03
to
But hang on... they have given us ballpoint pens that write upside down.


Me

unread,
Feb 2, 2003, 11:36:55 AM2/2/03
to
On Sun, 2 Feb 2003 11:13:34 -0500, "Bluejay" <bluej...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

I guess the same could be said for the utopian dreams of Social
Security and Medicare.

Don't people realize that the science and technology that comes out of
the space program makes everyone's lives better. You may not see it
directly, but it is there.

I would be more than willing to give up my so-called Social Security
benefits, take total responsibity for my own retirement and have my
funds diverted to the space program.

Chris Boyd

unread,
Feb 2, 2003, 11:31:25 AM2/2/03
to
Bluejay killed six kittens after typing this:


That's right, multitasking can only be done by computers running Linux.


-----------== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Uncensored Usenet News ==----------
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----= Over 100,000 Newsgroups - Unlimited Fast Downloads - 19 Servers =-----

Randy

unread,
Feb 2, 2003, 12:10:13 PM2/2/03
to
And what are you planning to do with all your money ???? Take it with you
???? WELL !


Steve Brown

unread,
Feb 2, 2003, 12:12:11 PM2/2/03
to
Okay, but don't spend my money on welfare. Let charities and benovolence do
it.

"Bluejay" <bluej...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Mmb%9.9351$yU6.2290@fe01...

Richard Revis

unread,
Feb 2, 2003, 12:04:53 PM2/2/03
to
Huge wrote:

> I'm not an American taxpayer, so I don't contribute to the space
> programme

You do indirectly. Your (and my) taxes are paying for the CVF programme
(£10bn in total) and 54% of BAE Systems profits are paid to American
shareholders, and taxed by the US government.

Equally, the JSF programme - £many bn from the UK - 20% BAE, the rest is US
companies, so something over 70% of the profit (plus in that case most of
the money paid in wages) will be taxed by the US government.

We all pay for it in the end :o)

--
When will men learn that all races are equally inferior to robots?
7:01:59 up 3:11, 1 user, load average: 0.11, 0.10, 0.08
RX bytes:51902820 (49.4 Mb) TX bytes:1737741 (1.6 Mb)
E-mail address munged to prevent spam.

carlos romero

unread,
Feb 2, 2003, 12:19:09 PM2/2/03
to


I really hate to fan the flame because this is really off topic.

There are more than 100 documented NASA technologies from the Space
Shuttle. That are now incorporated into the tools *you* use, the
satellites *you* use (weather, tv, etc...). the foods *you* eat, and the
medicines used to improve *your* health. This technoligies that have
come out of the space program far out way the cost. At a cost of $15
billion dollars a year the space program is a small fraction of our 3
trillion dollar budget. I think you should look at the cost of other
programs we have before you are quick to judge the space program. $396
billion dollars is going to defense this year.

"We often take for granted the returns on NASA's past investments:
Everything from global satellite telecommunications to disposable
diapers are the result of our investment in space technology," said
NASA Administrator Daniel S. Goldin.

http://nctn.hq.nasa.gov/


carlos


DaGroaner

unread,
Feb 2, 2003, 12:41:06 PM2/2/03
to
Trickle down economics? Look it's the least you can do. Your country has
reaped the benefits of American technology and face it if not for us you'd
all be speaking german.


"Richard Revis" <SPAMne...@bottest.com> wrote in message
news:b1jjog$13o1o6$1...@ID-126341.news.dfncis.de...


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.449 / Virus Database: 251 - Release Date: 1/27/2003


Kevin Hill

unread,
Feb 2, 2003, 12:42:19 PM2/2/03
to
Bluejay,

Your view is incredibly shortsighted. Some of the amazing technology we
take for granted today that serves us well is a direct result of the space
program.
The space program continues to push the bounds of science, and science
brings technology to our tables.

Some examples (Please, others fill this list out...):

Freeze Drying
Smoke Detectors
Ski Boots
Golf Balls (Space shuttle external tank materials)
Cordless Products
Bike Helmets
Quartz Clocks
"Cool" Lasers
Camera on a chip
LED's
Body Imaging

http://techtran.msfc.nasa.gov/classroom.html
http://techtran.msfc.nasa.gov/at_home/athospital.htm


Want to know what really costs us taxpayers money? Paying for broken
Social Security, Paying for Freeloading Welfare cases, paying for medicare
and medicine.

in 2000, NASA's budget was less than 1 percent of the total federal
budget. About 14 billion dollars. In 2002, they cut 1.4 billion from that.


"Bluejay" <bluej...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Mmb%9.9351$yU6.2290@fe01...

Skiller

unread,
Feb 2, 2003, 12:45:00 PM2/2/03
to
Uh, yeah... It's much more important that we spend all of our resources and
focus our attentions on building more missiles, smart bombs, super-highways,
bigger SUV's, wider video screens, weed wackers and leaf blowers, less oily
french fries, keeping the price of gasoline low, and most of all, to quarrel
over religion and politics. "

Not.

Space exploration is one of the few things that transcends the
meaninglessness of ordinary lives. Cutting edge inquiry and sacrifice are
what gives us all a sense of hope for the future.


Skler

Bluejay <bluej...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Mmb%9.9351$yU6.2290@fe01...

Skiller

unread,
Feb 2, 2003, 12:46:32 PM2/2/03
to
Footnote:


Public opinion polls for many decades have consistently show that a majority
of the people are very much in favor of making the financial commitment to
keep space exploration going.


Skler


Steve

unread,
Feb 2, 2003, 1:41:44 PM2/2/03
to

"DaGroaner" <alsra...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:SKc%9.44236$G83.407@sccrnsc04...

> Trickle down economics? Look it's the least you can do. Your country has
> reaped the benefits of American technology and face it if not for us you'd
> all be speaking german.

If you study the history, you will find Britain had fought off any German
invasion attempt before you got pissed off with Japan. You will also find
the US was happy to collect large payments for munitions in order for us to
try to kick him out of Europe.

We were fighting dictators long before you were and at great cost to us; not
for cheap oil.

Please get your facts straight before replying.

Harley Jackson

unread,
Feb 2, 2003, 1:51:28 PM2/2/03
to
I know speak for most Australians that I am in awe of the US space program.
The shuttle surely represents the pinnacle of man's technological
achievements.

It's surprising the comment below comes from an American - your predecessors
left behind the old world in order to be pioneers and build a new and better
life. The astronauts are the pioneers of the current-age, and surely the
space program is the ongoing embodiment of the American pioneering spirit.

It's great to see a nation willing to spend the megabucks required to
maintain this commitment. I mean it.
Go America!

- Harley


"Bluejay" <bluej...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Mmb%9.9351$yU6.2290@fe01...

Harley Jackson

unread,
Feb 2, 2003, 1:52:34 PM2/2/03
to

DaGroaner

unread,
Feb 2, 2003, 1:54:31 PM2/2/03
to
You mean you were dictators right? The fact is that Hitler was kicking your
asses and you know it. There is no way in hell you could have held them off
forever. If your drivel is what passes as fact in the UK it's no wonder why
you losers have yet to discover dental hygiene.


"Steve" <st...@spamtrap.org> wrote in message
news:b1jopa$143mq4$1...@ID-155449.news.dfncis.de...

Tim Kozusko

unread,
Feb 2, 2003, 1:58:47 PM2/2/03
to

Bluejay <bluej...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Mmb%9.9351$yU6.2290@fe01...

It takes a special kind of person to type something like that into a
computer and post it on the Internet. Well done; your village must be
proud.

Tim Kozusko

unread,
Feb 2, 2003, 2:03:04 PM2/2/03
to

Harley Jackson <harlsun...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:QMd%9.6691$DC6....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

> I know speak for most Australians that I am in awe of the US space
program.
> The shuttle surely represents the pinnacle of man's technological
> achievements.
>
> It's surprising the comment below comes from an American - your
predecessors
> left behind the old world in order to be pioneers and build a new and
better
> life. The astronauts are the pioneers of the current-age, and surely the
> space program is the ongoing embodiment of the American pioneering spirit.
>
> It's great to see a nation willing to spend the megabucks required to
> maintain this commitment. I mean it.
> Go America!
>
> - Harley

During Apollo my dad flew on the ARIA aircraft as a communications engineer,
and from what he told me about his times in Australia (he really liked the
country and the people), many there must share your view.
Thank you!


Richard Revis

unread,
Feb 2, 2003, 2:02:22 PM2/2/03
to
DaGroaner wrote:

> Trickle down economics?

Yep.

> Look it's the least you can do.

Yep.

> Your country has
> reaped the benefits of American technology and face it if not for us you'd
> all be speaking german.

Up until there I didn't realise you were a moron.

--
When will men learn that all races are equally inferior to robots?

9:01:37 up 5:11, 1 user, load average: 0.08, 0.06, 0.01
RX bytes:129758069 (123.7 Mb) TX bytes:6614324 (6.3 Mb)

Eric de Lange

unread,
Feb 2, 2003, 2:09:05 PM2/2/03
to
"Bluejay" <bluej...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Mmb%9.9351$yU6.2290@fe01...

Nasa budget 2002: around 15 Billion USD
US Defense total for 2002: around 320 Billion USD (50 % of gov descretionary
spending)

So, maybe it's better to have the military shoot rockets into outer space
(they have lots of them anyway) and have Nasa look for Bin Laden ?

Cal.


turista

unread,
Feb 2, 2003, 2:19:38 PM2/2/03
to
> I know speak for most Australians that I am in awe of the US space
program.
> The shuttle surely represents the pinnacle of man's technological
> achievements.
>
> It's surprising the comment below comes from an American - your
predecessors
> left behind the old world in order to be pioneers and build a new and
better
> life. The astronauts are the pioneers of the current-age, and surely the
> space program is the ongoing embodiment of the American pioneering spirit.
>

the difference being, of course, that the old world pioneers were peasants,
criminals, cultist and riff-raff from the streets of Europe...the current
pioneers, while brave, are just learning to be ship's captain's for the
billionaires of the world...you won't see any orphans colonizing the new New
World.


Courtney Mewton

unread,
Feb 2, 2003, 2:25:06 PM2/2/03
to
On Sun, 2 Feb 2003, Harley Jackson wrote:

> I know speak for most Australians that I am in awe of the US space program.
> The shuttle surely represents the pinnacle of man's technological
> achievements.
>
> It's surprising the comment below comes from an American - your predecessors
> left behind the old world in order to be pioneers and build a new and better
> life. The astronauts are the pioneers of the current-age, and surely the
> space program is the ongoing embodiment of the American pioneering spirit.
>
> It's great to see a nation willing to spend the megabucks required to
> maintain this commitment. I mean it.
> Go America!

Ditto.

Regards,
CJM

Tim Kozusko

unread,
Feb 2, 2003, 2:29:19 PM2/2/03
to

DaGroaner <alsra...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:HPd%9.143188$VU6....@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net...

> You mean you were dictators right? The fact is that Hitler was kicking
your
> asses and you know it. There is no way in hell you could have held them
off
> forever. If your drivel is what passes as fact in the UK it's no wonder
why
> you losers have yet to discover dental hygiene.

Shouldn't you be in a chat room?


Steve

unread,
Feb 2, 2003, 2:36:41 PM2/2/03
to

"DaGroaner" <alsra...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:HPd%9.143188$VU6....@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net...

> You mean you were dictators right? The fact is that Hitler was kicking
your
> asses and you know it. There is no way in hell you could have held them
off
> forever. If your drivel is what passes as fact in the UK it's no wonder
why
> you losers have yet to discover dental hygiene.

Get an education, then get a passport.

k turner

unread,
Feb 2, 2003, 3:07:34 PM2/2/03
to
To those of you who wish to promote "preemptive" war on Iraq;
do so with your own funds.

To those of you who wish to shill religious dogma
though "faith based initiatives";
do so through your own church.

To those of you who wish to subsidize procreation through child tax-credits;
get a second job.

To those of you who wish to imprison people
for actions of prostitution or drug use;
dig into your own pockets.

To those of you who wish to strip soldiers
who fought against us in Afghanistan of their rights,
via the use of the netherworld third class construct
of "illegal combatants";
they are either POWs, or criminals,
do not use my tax money for this theft of due process.

To those of you who wish to fund and support the despotic state of Pakistan;
do so with your own earnings.

To those of you who wish to use my taxes for ANYTHING that I disagree with;
give it back to me,
and I will use my returned money for investment in space.

"When liberty comes with hands dabbled in blood
it is hard to shake hands with her."

Oscar Wilde

DaGroaner

unread,
Feb 2, 2003, 3:10:13 PM2/2/03
to
Fuck off you smelly piece of eurotrash. Who wants to learn your revisionist
history?


"Steve" <st...@spamtrap.org> wrote in message

news:b1js09$13ddjd$1...@ID-155449.news.dfncis.de...

Alan Whitehouse

unread,
Feb 2, 2003, 3:08:05 PM2/2/03
to

Excellently said. And while I don't agree with some (ok, most) of
your choices listed up there you make a great point. There are tons
of government programs and actions I would kill in a heartbeat that I
don't agree with and whose funds could be better spent on space.

Alan

Tom

unread,
Feb 2, 2003, 3:18:15 PM2/2/03
to
Did you write this just before you climbed into your $35,000, 14 mpg
SUV and drove at 15 miles an hour over the speed limit to Starbucks
for your $4 cup of coffee?

Tell me about my hard working fellow american. My hard working fellow
american that paints himself silver and blue and glues horns to his
head. My hard working fellow american drinks himself into oblivion so
he can jump into his SUV and on the way home from the stadium kill
another hard working Americans 6 year old daughter and think she was a
speed bump.

About the only thing most of my hard working fellow americans will
ever do to for the good of humanity is pay their taxes.

Oh and by the way, can I see your plan on solving world hunger with
NASA's budget?

On Sun, 2 Feb 2003 11:13:34 -0500, "Bluejay" <bluej...@yahoo.com>

Tom

unread,
Feb 2, 2003, 3:19:18 PM2/2/03
to
Ditto!!!

Tom

On Sun, 02 Feb 2003 16:36:55 GMT, no...@whocares.com (Me) wrote:

>On Sun, 2 Feb 2003 11:13:34 -0500, "Bluejay" <bluej...@yahoo.com>
>wrote:
>
>>To all the people who still want to explore space:
>>
>>Do so with your own funds. Let private corporations come up with the
>>billions upon billions of dollars needed to fund and complete the ISS.
>>Trillions of U.S. taxpayer money has been wasted so far. Don't use the money
>>of hard-working Amercians to realize these extravagant utopian dreams. It is
>>insane to spend this kind of money with wild abandon when there are more
>>important problems down on Earth that need attention.
>>I was fascinated with the space shuttle growing up but now as an adult my
>>views of NASA aren't as innocent and real life problems on the ground take
>>far more precedence.
>>
>>

>I guess the same could be said for the utopian dreams of Social
>Security and Medicare.
>
>Don't people realize that the science and technology that comes out of
>the space program makes everyone's lives better. You may not see it
>directly, but it is there.
>
>I would be more than willing to give up my so-called Social Security
>benefits, take total responsibity for my own retirement and have my
>funds diverted to the space program.
>
>

ccr...@webtv.net

unread,
Feb 2, 2003, 3:31:54 PM2/2/03
to
I'd rather have my tax dollars go to the space program than continue to
support the people on the welfare system.

Steve

unread,
Feb 2, 2003, 4:02:00 PM2/2/03
to

"DaGroaner" <alsra...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:FWe%9.142849$rM2.57817@rwcrnsc53...

> Fuck off you smelly piece of eurotrash. Who wants to learn your
revisionist
> history?

Thank you for demonstrating so well how you clearly do not need an
education. Your ability to refute me with well argued points and accurate
facts astounds me.

I assume you have no need for a passport either.


Paul F. Dietz

unread,
Feb 2, 2003, 4:07:42 PM2/2/03
to
Skiller wrote:

If you ask the public 'do you support the space program?' you get positive
results. But then if you ask 'do you support X' for X = a wide variety
of other government programs, you get an even more positive result.

Space has ranked low *relative* to other things the federal government
does, below even crop subsidies. And support drops considerably if the
question is rephrased to 'would you pay higher taxes to support a larger
space program'.

Paul

Bluejay

unread,
Feb 2, 2003, 4:24:01 PM2/2/03
to
Why the intense backlash when none of you named one single benefit to
justify trillions of taxdollars spent since the 1950's? Lets see airplanes,
helicopters,semiconductors, computers, radar, lasers, radio, television were
all invented before NASA came along. What has space yielded that enhances
our lives today? All we have to show for 40 years of heroic spaceflight are
moonrocks and lunar soil. Wait a minute, NASA invented dehydrated food for
space travel and how many of you kooks eat that? I figure you all are on the
NASA payroll and/or take Star Trek way too seriously lol. In case none of
you realized it, what happened to Columbia yesterday was REAL.
You fools really think the Challenger and Columbia riders were thinking
"Well I hope man continues to pursue the stars" even as they felt the white
hot reality of burning alive.

Steve

unread,
Feb 2, 2003, 4:37:20 PM2/2/03
to
On Sun, 2 Feb 2003 11:13:34 -0500, "Bluejay" <bluej...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>To all the people who still want to explore space:
>
>Do so with your own funds. Let private corporations come up with the
>billions upon billions of dollars needed to fund and complete the ISS.
>Trillions of U.S. taxpayer money has been wasted so far. Don't use the money
>of hard-working Amercians to realize these extravagant utopian dreams. It is
>insane to spend this kind of money with wild abandon when there are more
>important problems down on Earth that need attention.
>I was fascinated with the space shuttle growing up but now as an adult my
>views of NASA aren't as innocent and real life problems on the ground take
>far more precedence.

Mmm, so little understanding you have.

www.sti.nasa.gov/tto/spinoff.html

--
Steve.

Steve Brown

unread,
Feb 2, 2003, 4:44:09 PM2/2/03
to
Simple,

Her'es one: the ability to BUILD in space. Want to explore other moons and
planets? You're going to need to build colonies.

Why don't you try justifying welfare, or the flow rate of ketchup! Justify
the damn city and local government subsidies to build new stadiums at the
taxpayers' expense. And what do we get for it? Some dumb enternatinment and
a bunch of overpaid athletic crybabies with a useful career of only a few
years.

Or try to justify a state blowing $25 billion surplus, and spending an
additional $10 billion on top of that, with absolutely NO increase in
services. Yet we have an addition 3000 government employees on the payroll
who don't need to be there. How about the beloved government who is voting,
successfully, to triple our car registration to pay for it.

Try justifying hiking our tax dollars when many inepts who cannot hold a job
in the private sector squander it away on bloating the government with
service workers who wouldn't last a day in the worst McDonalds in town.

Don't you dare call us fools without knowing who we are, what we've done in
our lives, and what we've learned and contributed to mankind. Why don't you
step up and tell the world what you've done to contribute to mankind.

Don't think for a minute that those astronauts didn't know the risks.
There's lots of soldiers who know the risks, and they sign up anyway.

You make me sick!


"Bluejay" <bluej...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:PVf%9.9886$yU6.7509@fe01...

Wally Anglesea™

unread,
Feb 2, 2003, 4:45:26 PM2/2/03
to
On Sun, 02 Feb 2003 18:51:28 GMT, "Harley Jackson"
<harlsun...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>I know speak for most Australians that I am in awe of the US space program.
>The shuttle surely represents the pinnacle of man's technological
>achievements.
>
>It's surprising the comment below comes from an American - your predecessors
>left behind the old world in order to be pioneers and build a new and better
>life. The astronauts are the pioneers of the current-age, and surely the
>space program is the ongoing embodiment of the American pioneering spirit.
>
>It's great to see a nation willing to spend the megabucks required to
>maintain this commitment. I mean it.
>Go America!

As an Aussie, I'm going to add my 2 cents worth.

After the Apollo 1 fire, there was a review, Astronauts kept going,
changes were made after a review, and NASA us to the Moon. NASA and
the US got on with it.

After Challenger, the was a review, and astronauts stepped up to fly,
and you kept going.


After Sept 11th, some American's stopped flying,but shortly afterwards
people were flying again. IOW the US kept going.


I hope, and I am sure, the same spirit will continue after this.


>
>- Harley
>
>
>"Bluejay" <bluej...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:Mmb%9.9351$yU6.2290@fe01...
>> To all the people who still want to explore space:
>>
>> Do so with your own funds. Let private corporations come up with the
>> billions upon billions of dollars needed to fund and complete the ISS.
>> Trillions of U.S. taxpayer money has been wasted so far. Don't use the
>money
>> of hard-working Amercians to realize these extravagant utopian dreams. It
>is
>> insane to spend this kind of money with wild abandon when there are more
>> important problems down on Earth that need attention.
>> I was fascinated with the space shuttle growing up but now as an adult my
>> views of NASA aren't as innocent and real life problems on the ground take
>> far more precedence.
>

--

Find out about Australia's most dangerous Doomsday Cult:
http://users.bigpond.net.au/wanglese/pebble.htm

"You can't fool me, it's turtles all the way down."

Debbie / Bob Stanley

unread,
Feb 2, 2003, 7:04:47 PM2/2/03
to
Need we remind you that the very computer on which you are writing this
reply is a spin off of the Apollo program?
"Steve" <s...@noradutr.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:so3r3v4kcbj8k3lvh...@4ax.com...

Paul F. Dietz

unread,
Feb 2, 2003, 7:25:37 PM2/2/03
to
Debbie / Bob Stanley wrote:

> Need we remind you that the very computer on which you are writing this
> reply is a spin off of the Apollo program?

It's not, unless you're using a very liberal definition of 'spinoff'.
Neither integrated circuits, nor CMOS, nor microprocessors were invented
for Apollo. At best, Apollo may have helped accelerate development
some during the early 60s, but there were other large users of ICs then
(in the military) so development would have continued anyway. By 1970
commercial uses dominated.

Paul

John Starrett

unread,
Feb 2, 2003, 7:46:44 PM2/2/03
to
DaGroaner wrote:
>
> Trickle down economics? Look it's the least you can do. Your country has

> reaped the benefits of American technology and face it if not for us you'd
> all be speaking german.
<snip>

Welcome to the kill file. KERPLO....... well, I am sure you
know the sound.

--
John Starrett

John Starrett

unread,
Feb 2, 2003, 7:43:45 PM2/2/03
to
Bluejay wrote:
>
> To all the people who still want to explore space:
>
> Do so with your own funds. Let private corporations come up with the
> billions upon billions of dollars needed to fund and complete the ISS.
> Trillions of U.S. taxpayer money has been wasted so far. Don't use the money
> of hard-working Amercians to realize these extravagant utopian dreams. It is
> insane to spend this kind of money with wild abandon when there are more
> important problems down on Earth that need attention.
> I was fascinated with the space shuttle growing up but now as an adult my
> views of NASA aren't as innocent and real life problems on the ground take
> far more precedence.

Most of the problems here on Earth cannot be solved no
matter how much money is spent on them. They are not those
kind of problems. The space program can offer a vision of
hope for mankind that enlightens, enriches and energizes our
lives. In my opinion, money spent on exploration is money
well spent for our sake here on Earth

--
John Starrett

Greetings From Earth

unread,
Feb 2, 2003, 9:10:58 PM2/2/03
to
are you telling me that cutting funding for the lowest government payout is
going to solve..............uhhh.............what?

"Bluejay" <bluej...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Mmb%9.9351$yU6.2290@fe01...

Steve Hix

unread,
Feb 3, 2003, 1:13:40 AM2/3/03
to
In article <b1js09$13ddjd$1...@ID-155449.news.dfncis.de>,
"Steve" <st...@spamtrap.org> wrote:

You *want* him to visit?

Gutsy...

The Other James

unread,
Feb 3, 2003, 1:46:03 AM2/3/03
to
Bluejay wrote:

> To all the people who still want to explore space:
>
> Do so with your own funds. Let private corporations come up with the
> billions upon billions of dollars needed to fund and complete the ISS.
> Trillions of U.S. taxpayer money has been wasted so far. Don't use the money
> of hard-working Amercians to realize these extravagant utopian dreams. It is
> insane to spend this kind of money with wild abandon when there are more
> important problems down on Earth that need attention.
> I was fascinated with the space shuttle growing up but now as an adult my
> views of NASA aren't as innocent and real life problems on the ground take
> far more precedence.

Trillions? I *wish* NASA had trillions.

It seems that we wasted quite a bit of money on your public education.


Gordon Davie

unread,
Feb 3, 2003, 5:50:33 PM2/3/03
to
DaGroaner wrote:
> You mean you were dictators right? The fact is that Hitler was
> kicking your asses and you know it. There is no way in hell you
> could have held them off forever. If your drivel is what passes as
> fact in the UK it's no wonder why you losers have yet to discover
> dental hygiene.

If by that you mean filling our mouths with several tons of metal, I'll
pass, thank you.

Here's an idea - take the money Americans spend on orthodontists each year
and give it to NASA. They could build a dozen Shuttles!
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland

"Slipped the surly bonds of Earth...to touch the face of God"


Gordon Davie

unread,
Feb 3, 2003, 5:50:33 PM2/3/03
to
Huge wrote:

> no...@whocares.com (Me) writes:
>> On Sun, 2 Feb 2003 11:13:34 -0500, "Bluejay" <bluej...@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>
> [21 lines snipped]

>
>> I would be more than willing to give up my so-called Social Security
>> benefits, take total responsibity for my own retirement and have my
>> funds diverted to the space program.
>
> Hear, hear.
>
> I'm not an American taxpayer, so I don't contribute to the space
> programme, and my Government is too (words fail me at this point
> as to how much the British Government sucks) to contribute. But
> I see every cent as money well spent, and I wish I *could* send
> some money. I'd rather it were spent on that than most of the
> crap that Governments piss it away on.

Like the Millennium Dome...

jchase

unread,
Feb 3, 2003, 9:43:20 PM2/3/03
to

Bluejay wrote:
>
> Trillions of U.S. taxpayer money has been wasted so far. Don't use the money
> of hard-working Amercians to realize these extravagant utopian dreams.
>

> <remainder edited>

What do you think happened to that money- did it get lauched into space?

NO! The "trillions wasted" were PAID to employees of NASA, or paid to
contractors and suppliers who paid their employees, etc, etc, etc. At
worst, the space program has been a huge "welfare" system for highly
educated, ambitious people. At best, its been an incubator for
technology and products now in commercial use, and a considerably better
use of money than ICBM's, nuclear aircraft carriers, and most
Presidential Libraries.

The upcoming war against Iraq (I do so hope it doesn't happen) will cost
about 7 to 14 years of the NASA budget.

Christopher P. Winter

unread,
Feb 4, 2003, 2:05:22 AM2/4/03
to
On Sun, 2 Feb 2003 11:13:34 -0500, "Bluejay" <bluej...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>To all the people who still want to explore space:
>
>Do so with your own funds. Let private corporations come up with the
>billions upon billions of dollars needed to fund and complete the ISS.

>Trillions of U.S. taxpayer money has been wasted so far. Don't use the money

>of hard-working Amercians to realize these extravagant utopian dreams. It is
>insane to spend this kind of money with wild abandon when there are more
>important problems down on Earth that need attention.
>I was fascinated with the space shuttle growing up but now as an adult my
>views of NASA aren't as innocent and real life problems on the ground take
>far more precedence.
>

Here's what would happen, Bluejay, if we took all the taxpayer money
spent on space projects and transferred it to "more important problems" on
Earth:

1. All those "more important problems" would still be with us.

2. People like you would find some other "extravagance" to complain
about.

Chris

The Other James

unread,
Feb 4, 2003, 5:35:48 AM2/4/03
to
jchase wrote:

Apparently you don't have a good grasp of what the word "trillion" means. It's
1,000 billion, in the US definition. NASA does NOT spend more than about 1.4% of
that much money in a year. Read the budget. The social programs in the US eat up
dozens of times NASA's budget every year. If you did away with NASA entirely, the
average US taxpayer probably would be able to eat at McDonalds once more per year.

Jay K

unread,
Feb 4, 2003, 8:21:09 AM2/4/03
to
I actually agree with most of what you said.

> Do so with your own funds. Let private corporations come up with the
> billions upon billions of dollars needed to fund and complete the ISS.

Private corporations would love to do just that.
A good example is at http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=4204
also, check out the business plans of the teams at www.xprize.org

> Trillions of U.S. taxpayer money has been wasted so far. Don't use the money

> of hard-working Amercians to realize these extravagant utopian dreams. >It is insane to spend this kind of money with wild abandon when there are more important problems down on Earth that need attention.

In a way, I agree with this. NASA shouldn't be a trucking company, it
should be our R&D and allow private enterprise to fairly compete.

We've been down this road before. Lewis and Clark explored the
American West, private citizens started going there, goverment add the
pony express as a support service, gold rush and other opertunities
cause private expansion and robust access to be developed (railroads)

Same for the airlines, as the goverment's airmail service was enough
support to attract private development of better airplanes.

Some of the problems are that NASA and other goverment agencies have
sabatoged private enterprise, How can a private company compete
against entrenched buracracies trying to protect their powerbase?

IGNORING spinoffs we can easily see DIRECT benifits from space, that
likely wouldn't have ever started with private industry. Weather and
communication satellites, GPS systems (although the French did blow up
Geostar, a similar private attempt at GPS), Radar and other earth
sensing systems are the most visible ones that helps you every day ON
EARTH.

Men on Mars, colonies on the Moon, homes floating in space may be
utopian dreams that the goverment should not be spending tax money to
realize.
However, paving the way to enable *us* to develop our dreams *is* an
appropriate use of tax funds.
We dream of fast travel across the US, so a highway system is built
and we supply the cars. We dream of living free of disease, so the NIH
funds basic research which private companies use to make drugs.

As a civilization, we have decided to use some of our taxes to fund
things that we don't *need* to live, but does define us as a culture.
Grants to artists of all types, museums to give us access to art,
public art on our city streets, statues and memorials to honor our
hereos, libraries to preserve and share our writings and ideas. Cities
use our funds to build sports stadiums, and to clean up after parades.
While there's no reason we need patches of green in the middle of
prime real estate, we have a parks department to care for them.
Religion is important enough to us that we forego billions of dollars
of taxes so it can florish.

While I may think spending billions on sports is insane, and you think
the same of space exploration, there are enough people who think that
sports, art, space, statues etc. are vital to our culture and deserve
our collective support.

I think that for the same reasons we support art and science and
sports etc, we should be supporting space exploration, so I support
that aspect of NASA.
The parts that are pork barrel, and exists mainly because large
goverment agencys rarely dissolve are what I don't support, and kind
of agree with you about.

Dave Tenney

unread,
Feb 4, 2003, 6:10:09 PM2/4/03
to

"Bluejay" <bluej...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Mmb%9.9351$yU6.2290@fe01...
> To all the people who still want to explore space:
>
> Do so with your own funds. Let private corporations come up with the
> billions upon billions of dollars needed to fund and complete the ISS.

Let's see, NASA's FY 2004 budget request is about $15B. (that's the whole
ball of wax, not just the ISS)
ref: http://www.nasa.gov/about/budget/content/FY_2004_Budget_Highlights.pdf
Where could corporate America come up with that kind of cash?

How about we get pharmaceutical companies to spend their money on space
exploration instead of enticing physicians to prescribe their pet pills..
ref: http://www.mercola.com/2002/mar/23/drug_companies.htm

Or we could ask the airlines to give us our money back.
ref: http://www-tech.mit.edu/V121/N47/col47torto.47c.html

Maybe Hewlett Packard would like to buy a space program instead of a
competitor...
ref: http://pcbuyersguide.com/news/talkback/999584780,74611,.shtml

> Trillions of U.S. taxpayer money has been wasted so far.

If you mean since NASA was formed in 1958, as of 1996 their total
appropriations add up to $247,438,560,000 or $0.25 trillion (rounded).
ref: http://history.nasa.gov/pocketstats/sect%20D/Fin%20Sum.pdf
I should of course include that I am not an accountant so if I am not
looking at this information correctly someone please tell me.
Also it seems that the value of trillion varies depending on which side of
the pond you are on...
ref: http://mathcentral.uregina.ca/QQ/database/QQ.09.97/gupta1.html

>Don't use the money
> of hard-working Amercians to realize these extravagant utopian dreams.

No! instead spend the money of hard-working Americans to realize other
extravagant utopian dreams like providing universal health care, guaranteed
employment, free food, free housing, etc. etc. etc.
We all know allowing local faith-based organizations to provide for the
public is a big no-no...

>It is
> insane to spend this kind of money with wild abandon when there are more
> important problems down on Earth that need attention.

Yeah! like how much beer can you buy with $15B?
ref: http://www.anheuser-busch.com/annual/2001FinancialHighlights.pdf

> I was fascinated with the space shuttle growing up but now as an adult my
> views of NASA aren't as innocent and real life problems on the ground take
> far more precedence.

I was fascinated by the Saturn V growing up and now as an adult I belive my
views of NASA are realistic. Some problems on the ground (no matter how
important) will defy solution whether we spend money in space or not. I
belive the government should fund basic scientific research in space and on
earth for the benefit all Americans, because if it is left to the private
sector no one will invest in knowledge, they will instead invest in
marketing.

You know, the real waste here is the hour I just spent looking up
information to refute your post, knowing as I do that you will probably
never read the replies.

--Dave--


The Other James

unread,
Feb 4, 2003, 10:45:02 PM2/4/03
to
Dave Tenney wrote:

Thanks for the stats, Dave. *That's* what I was looking for! There are
approximately 275 million American men, women, and children today. In if you
divide the total spent ($247B) by the number of people, you get: $899.78
approximately, *per person* expenditure, *since the beginning of NASA, not per
year*.

The other interesting factoid I've heard passed around in the last couple of
days: For each dollar the US government spends on NASA in general, the total
expectation is a return of greater than 90 cents in tax dollars and other
financial gains (not counting the hidden scientific and spinoff benefits).

I was slightly aware that other countries use another definition of trillion
than we do. Do you suppose this chap is actually British, or just another
illiterate American? If he used the British definition of trillion, he'd just
be more inaccurate, except by a factor of 10^9 instead of 10^3. <Shudder.>

I'm not usually a jerk like this... people who can't do math just tick me off.

Last factoid today: The US military spends an amount equal to NASA's annual
budget, every *week*. I'm not criticizing that - the military is a very
necessary thing - but I'm rather trying to put it into perspective for folks.
Maybe one person in particular will read my response.

--
The Other James

Dave Tenney

unread,
Feb 6, 2003, 12:42:19 AM2/6/03
to

"The Other James" <nos...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:3E40885E...@nowhere.com...
<snip>

> Thanks for the stats, Dave. *That's* what I was looking for! There are
> approximately 275 million American men, women, and children today. In if
you
> divide the total spent ($247B) by the number of people, you get: $899.78
> approximately, *per person* expenditure, *since the beginning of NASA, not
per
> year*.

You're welcome. It was an enlightening lunch break looking that stuff up. I
would caution against dividing the budget by the population though as not
everyone pays the same in taxes. At some point I'm going to work out a pie
chart on the federal budget and figure out how much of each tax dollar I pay
goes to which programs.

> The other interesting factoid I've heard passed around in the last couple
of
> days: For each dollar the US government spends on NASA in general, the
total
> expectation is a return of greater than 90 cents in tax dollars and other
> financial gains (not counting the hidden scientific and spinoff benefits).

If you locate the source on that one please let me know.

> I was slightly aware that other countries use another definition of
trillion
> than we do. Do you suppose this chap is actually British, or just another
> illiterate American? If he used the British definition of trillion, he'd
just
> be more inaccurate, except by a factor of 10^9 instead of 10^3.
<Shudder.>
>
> I'm not usually a jerk like this... people who can't do math just tick me
off.

Well, actually I'm one of those. I had the hardest time in school with
powers of ten for some reason. I looked up trillion to be sure I had the
right power of ten and found that page...

> Last factoid today: The US military spends an amount equal to NASA's
annual
> budget, every *week*. I'm not criticizing that - the military is a very
> necessary thing - but I'm rather trying to put it into perspective for
folks.
> Maybe one person in particular will read my response.
>

Agreed, the military is very necessary. Hopefully we'll reach a time when
they're not being kept so busy...

--Dave--


roy andrew crabtree

unread,
Feb 6, 2003, 2:45:47 PM2/6/03
to

Something like:

Jay K wrote:
> I actually agree with most of what you said.
>
>
>>Do so with your own funds. Let private corporations come up with the
>>billions upon billions of dollars needed to fund and complete the ISS.
>
>
> Private corporations would love to do just that.
> A good example is at http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=4204
> also, check out the business plans of the teams at www.xprize.org
>
>
>>Trillions of U.S. taxpayer money has been wasted so far. Don't use the money
>>of hard-working Amercians to realize these extravagant utopian dreams. >It is insane to spend this kind of money with wild abandon when there are more important problems down on Earth that need attention.
>
>
> In a way, I agree with this. NASA shouldn't be a trucking company, it
> should be our R&D and allow private enterprise to fairly compete.


Worldcom, Enron, or a dozen others; or

The boondoggle of The Panama Company?

As expensive and wastrel as NASA has at times been:

They do not BEGIN to be a wasteful and greedy
(much less as ineffective)
major companies in search of the profit dollar.


--
Roy A. Crabtree
USPS POB 9001 (mailing)
Chapel Hill, NC 27515-9001
919-489-1157 voicemail

roy.cr...@unc.edu
crabt...@nc.rr.com

Dan Goldin

unread,
Feb 6, 2003, 2:49:20 PM2/6/03
to
>
> They do not BEGIN to be a wasteful and greedy
> (much less as ineffective)
> major companies in search of the profit dollar.

The difference is that stockholders in these major companies had a choice in
making their investment.


roy andrew crabtree

unread,
Feb 6, 2003, 2:43:31 PM2/6/03
to
More correctly, if you took the boons NASA has given us away, we would
have had a Malthusian solution in most of the world (food production and
weather forecasting) and would be conducting this conversation via paper
mail (no computers, no web). MUCH much more than that.

So: if we stopped NASA spending now, we will lose that much again in the
future.

roy andrew crabtree

unread,
Feb 6, 2003, 2:48:38 PM2/6/03
to
Now, do the same thing and estimate all the boons from NASA and space ...

Probably about 20% of the US economy since they started ...

Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages