Re: Speaking of Henry Spencer
Eric Chomko
> Hi Everybody? Is the STICK dead yet?
>
> Just a quick update, the Fujitsu hard disk in the 'Henry Spencer' died,
> a head crash worse than I have ever before witnessed in my entire life,
> probably a result of lack of use, and so I put the SCSI disk drive back
> into the beloved Henry Spencer, and then I went out on eBay and bought a
> used AMD K6-2+ CPU for $0.25 (yes 25 cents, plus $4.00 shipping, lol)
> and reset the voltage to 2.0 volts, and the multiplier to 4.5 (450 MHz)
> and the Henry Spencer experienced an epiphany, a transformation, a real
> upgrade in performance. Plus it runs a lot cooler now, this is the chip
> with the on chip fast cache RAM and fabbed at 0.18 microns, they sell
> like hotcakes on eBay, flap jacks. The German guy who was selling K6-3+s
> for $30.00 bucks brand new just sold out, and another guy has a tray of
> 10 brand new K6-2+s already bid up to $50.00. Smaller is better, Henry.
>
> That SCSI hard disk is still cranking out a lot of heat, though.
Look here kT, we both like Henry and we both know that Henry's system
is less than he deserves. I know you're willing to donate a system,
but so am I. I live in a college town (University of Maryland, College
Park). That said, I recently acquired a 2.6 GHz E-Systems computer
complete with Windows XP, that I am willing to donate to a useful
cause. E-Systems is not a top of the line system, however, it is
better than what you are trying to send to Henry and better than what
he has now.
I'll donate what I have, but I want to make sure it gets into good
hands...
Eric
Eric Chomko
>
> I only run the 'Henry Spencer' because I am a 'computer enthusiast'.
> I needed to prove to myself that I've still got the 'right stuff'.
> Besides, it's a K6-2+, those chips are still selling for $20.00.
>
> I suggest you check out the trade in old and obsolete CPUs.
> People all over the world are doing this, it's fun as hell!
> That being said, I still draw the line at K6-3+s and PIIIs.
The whole "Classic Computer" (see my collection here:
http://home.comcast.net/~pne.chomko/comp_list.htm) thing has gone into
a case where the older systems cutoff point from a timeline
perspective is not moving forward. What this means is that unless you
have something from before mid 1980s and earlier, you have nothing
from a collectable computer perspective. Everything in the past 20+
years is NOT collectable with few exceptions such as the NeXT
computer. Basically there exists three categories of home computer/PCs
that exist. The early stuff that is collectable, a bunch of stuff that
is too old to use and is not collectable and newer stuff that people
use. The earliest category grows very slowly. The middle category
grows very rapidly. And the last category is basically the computer
market as we know it today of which most people use daily. When
something is no longer usable it goes into the ever growing middle
category.
>
> In other words, I only run the PIIs until I can find a PIII to put in
> them, although I still have a few legacy A440LXs which I run for fun.
All of which, though fun, will never have any resale value to anyone.
More people would rather have the Pentium 1 chip that had the floating
point error, as a novelty, rather than a PII or a PIII system.
> The driving factor here is power and heat, not functionality or speed.
Too slow and nobody will use it.
>
> Here is the link, only seven of them left now, get them while you can :
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/K6-III-450-ACZ-K6-3-2-0V-100-WORKING_W0QQitemZ260...
I collect chips as others do and have a few K6s. I like them.
>
> Only 14 SSMEs left! The aftermarket for those things is gonna be HUGE!
Ah....no... Think middle category of ever growing stuff. Supply and
demand. The supply will outpace demand for a long long time.
Eric
jonathan
"Eric Chomko" <pne.c...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:fe3a91ed-3713-413a...@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 23, 11:36 am, kT <cos...@lifeform.org> wrote:
>Look here kT, we both like Henry and we both know that Henry's system
>is less than he deserves. I know you're willing to donate a system,
>but so am I. I live in a college town (University of Maryland, College
>Park).
Before moving to Miami, DC was my long time stomping grounds.
Used to live just around the corner from UM, in Riverdale near
Rt 1 and 410. And in nearby Greenbelt, one of the nicer areas
in the DC suburbs imo.
Pat Flannery
Henry likes his old system; that's why he stuck with it.
He could have easily replaced it on his budget, but is pretty much a
reactionary when it comes right down to it.
The hair and beard straight out of the late 60's - early 70's should
have clued you into that immediately.
COMRADE!
He fails Lenin's test - he does not "dare to be as revolutionary as
reality itself".
I think it's time that he be sent to a "Space Re-Education Camp", don't
you? ;-)
Pat
Rick Jones
As someone born and raised in the District of Columbia I feel
compelled to dispute that any of those areas are "DC" :)
rick jones
--
web2.0 n, the dot.com reunion tour...
these opinions are mine, all mine; HP might not want them anyway... :)
feel free to post, OR email to rick.jones2 in hp.com but NOT BOTH...
Eric Chomko
> "Eric Chomko" <pne.cho...@comcast.net> wrote in message
Riverdale and Hyattsville are still a tad run down, though they are
trying to boost Hyattsville. College Park is still nice, and Greenbelt
expecially around the lake is nice as well. The latest is that they
want to tear down Spring Hill Lake (fire hazards) and rebuild it with
business condo units. We'll see. The Metro nearby is the big draw.
Eric
Eric Chomko
> In sci.space.history jonathan <H...@write.instead.net> wrote:
>
> > "Eric Chomko" <pne.cho...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> >news:fe3a91ed-3713-413a...@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> > On Jul 23, 11:36 am, kT <cos...@lifeform.org> wrote:
> > >Look here kT, we both like Henry and we both know that Henry's
> > >system is less than he deserves. I know you're willing to donate a
> > >system, but so am I. I live in a college town (University of
> > >Maryland, College Park).
> > Before moving to Miami, DC was my long time stomping grounds. Used
> > to live just around the corner from UM, in Riverdale near Rt 1 and
> > 410. And in nearby Greenbelt, one of the nicer areas in the DC
> > suburbs imo.
>
> As someone born and raised in the District of Columbia I feel
> compelled to dispute that any of those areas are "DC" :)
Well, they aren't Baltimore or Columbia either!
He did state "DC suburbs" too, BTW.
Okay, since you are a DCer, can I blame you for the Nationals' lousy
record?
Eric
David Lesher
>> Used to live just around the corner from UM, in Riverdale near
>> Rt 1 and 410. =A0And in nearby Greenbelt, one of the nicer areas
>> in the DC suburbs imo.
>Riverdale and Hyattsville are still a tad run down, though they are
>trying to boost Hyattsville. College Park is still nice, and Greenbelt
>expecially around the lake is nice as well. The latest is that they
>want to tear down Spring Hill Lake (fire hazards) and rebuild it with
>business condo units. We'll see. The Metro nearby is the big draw.
And the PG Police Dept. is the big minus, but let's just leave it at that.
--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
Rick Jones
> Okay, since you are a DCer, can I blame you for the Nationals' lousy
> record?
Former DCer, when I was young, DC still had the Senators (not sure if
that was the MkI or the MkII team, and I left years the Nationals.
When I was a resident the basketball team was still called the Bullets.
rick jones
--
The computing industry isn't as much a game of "Follow The Leader" as
it is one of "Ring Around the Rosy" or perhaps "Duck Duck Goose."
- Rick Jones
Bill Davidsen
I guess my "War Games" IMSAIs still have some value, then. And maybe my
Radio Shack "Pocket PC."
--
Bill Davidsen
Eric Chomko
Sure both of them. The Pocket PC as long as the keys' letters haven't
been worn off from lots of use. Both sell on eBay. I have been trying
to actually get the Pocket computer from RS for awhile.
Eric Chomko
>
> http://www.imsai.net/
>
> That was nothing, we always had a couple of Sinclair ZX-80s in the
> drawer, and does anybody remember the Texas Instruments TI-99/4A?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TI-99
The TI 99/8 which was never released but still made in small quantity
is thr real collectors item.
http://www.old-computers.com/MUSEUM/computer.asp?c=268
Also the TI/4 rather than the TI/4A is the rarer of those two. Try and
find the former.
>
> If you could make that work, you knew you were great. And people did.
>
> I actually ran across the Editor Assembler for that P.O.S. in a discount
> bin at K-Mart, which saved me, because I was pretty damn well pissed off
> at that thing at that point, and had it disemboweled and mounted on the
> side of a desk in the shop. So I actually did get it going for a while.
Yes the TI 99/4A was more or less a toy.
>
> That and the VIC 20 were the only machines I ever used tape drives with.
> My hydrodynamics adviser and I used to laugh about the IBM punchcards.
>
> Once I got into the Apple ][ and Commodore it was heaven, because they
> were superbly documented with schematics and source code for everything.
>
> Our astrodynamics professor challenged us to write an orbiter simulator
> for it. That was way back in 1980. He laughed out load when he said it.
>
> The first thing I did was cross compile and hand assemble polyFORTH II
> onto them, and nothing else mattered at that point anymore, I was set.
> What happened was that I ended up smoking disk drives left and right.
>
> The first laptop I got was a Toshiba T-100. We were buying them through
> mail order houses, and running them on solar panels with no hard drive.
> I decided to pass on the Radio Shack Model 100, it just wasn't up to my
> standards, but I was intensely curious about those things nevertheless.
>
> The first modern hard disk I ever got my hands on, beyond old eight inch
> platters, was a Maxtor SCSI 170 MB, this was right around the time this
> neat new company appeared on the scene; Adaptec (SCSI controllers). Soon
> it was just a matter of how many top of the line software titles that
> you could cram into a 200 MB disk with Windows 3.1, and then 500 MB with
> Windows 95, then you could barely get Windows 98 to run on 500 MB disks.
Windows 3.1 was not worth running and 98 was an improvement over 95. I
don't recall having trouble running Win95 or Win98 in 100MB.
>
> For a long time I was running telephony applications on old Seagate 20
> MB disks that had to be 'spinrited' periodically to realign the head.
Are you talking about lower-level formatting the HD? That just made
disk access more efficient and really didn't "fix" anyting in
hardware. Oh, it did mark bad sectors and removed fragmentation, thus
reducing disk thrashing.
> The rest is history. It will be interesting to see what happens next.
>
> The 'Henry Spencer' is still an awesome computer. I'm gonna upgrade it
> to a K6-3+ as soon as I can get another one of those remarkable chips.
> And an old girlfriend is giving me yet another 'Henry Spencer', so soon
> there will be two of them (assuming I can find some more chips for it).
>
> It's still the slowest computer in the shop, but it's the most beloved.
>
> The next version of Orbiter Space Flight Simulator is going to be great,
> although I'm still working through a lot of bugs in the current version.
I have been meaning to look at that orbital space flight simulator. In
what manner does it simulate orbital spaceflight?
Eric
Eric Chomko
>
> What was left of it when you were finished? How much did you cut out?
According to this I couldn't have done it!
http://members.iquest.net/~tbennett/samples/31235-2/01/01.html
>
> >> For a long time I was running telephony applications on old Seagate 20
> >> MB disks that had to be 'spinrited' periodically to realign the head.
>
> > Are you talking about lower-level formatting the HD? That just made
> > disk access more efficient and really didn't "fix" anyting in
> > hardware.
>
> No, it fixed things in magnetism.
Show me from the FAQ: http://www.grc.com/sr/faq.htm
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpinRite
>
> > Oh, it did mark bad sectors and removed fragmentation, thus
> > reducing disk thrashing.
>
> I see, and you disassembled Steve's spin code, rite?
>
> Dude, you have no idea who you are talking to.
And you do?! At least my antiques have value. Your middle-of-the-road
systems lost their values years ago and will NEVER be collectros items
in your lifetime!
>
> Stick with the antique computers.
>
> I'm the guy who fixes them.
Any damn fool can replace one old board with another old board. When
was the last time you used a soldering iron?
Oh, and as much time as you're spending fixing those bugs in your
orbital simulator I would have written it right the first time. ;)
Eric
Eric Chomko
> network on laptops with no CDs, and still had trouble getting any amount
> of software on top of it. It can be done with 500 MB, but it's a hassle.
>
> >>>> For a long time I was running telephony applications on old Seagate 20
> >>>> MB disks that had to be 'spinrited' periodically to realign the head.
> >>> Are you talking about lower-level formatting the HD? That just made
> >>> disk access more efficient and really didn't "fix" anyting in
> >>> hardware.
> >> No, it fixed things in magnetism.
>
> > Show me from the FAQ:http://www.grc.com/sr/faq.htm
>
> drives with capacities up to a few hundred megabytes."
>
> Like I said, old Seagate 20 MB hard drives. We ran these things for a
> decade, all they required was periodic spinriting with *Spinrite 4.0*
I have several Seagate 20 MB (ST-225) including a SCSI version instead
of the MFM version. They are very relaible. One just sold on eBay for ~
$24.
>
> >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpinRite
>
> >>> Oh, it did mark bad sectors and removed fragmentation, thus
> >>> reducing disk thrashing.
> >> I see, and you disassembled Steve's spin code, rite?
>
> >> Dude, you have no idea who you are talking to.
>
> > And you do?! At least my antiques have value. Your middle-of-the-road
> > systems lost their values years ago and will NEVER be collectros items
> > in your lifetime!
>
> But they will fly Orbiter Space Flight Simulator at high fidelity.
What does the simulator do? Provide telemetry numbers? Show an orbit
using graphics?
> I threw away the Commodore 64s and Apple IIs years ago.
Sorry to hear that. I suspect that I have picked a few up in thrift
stores from folks like you
that threw them away.
> >> Stick with the antique computers.
>
> >> I'm the guy who fixes them.
>
> > Any damn fool can replace one old board with another old board. When
> > was the last time you used a soldering iron?
>
> Yesterday. It's still early, I'm still drinking coffee, and I have an
> important 1:00 PM meeting today :
>
> http://www.wid.wisc.edu/research/themes-competition.html
>
> When was the last time you fried a boot ROM or BIOS?
Fried or burned? Frying means made unusable due to shorting out the
PROM. Like most electronic components there usually is a nasty burnt
odor. Burning means transferring a software program to an EPROM via an
EPROM burner to create a piece of firmware that gets placed into a
socket to execute low-level code usually during power on boot up or
reset.
I have fried many electronic components but never a PROM. The last
PROM I burned was a copy of S-Bug in my SWTPC 6809 system (circa 1979)
as a backup. The chip was a 2716 EPROM.
Ever build a prototype board? I have. I made a 32 KB RAM card using a
single 32 KB by 8 bit SRAM chip, some 7400 series glue logic, 8 bit
latch, 7805 voltage regulator all on a SS-50 prototype board. Soldered
every joint and it worked! I am actually in the process of building a
similar PROM board.
> > Oh, and as much time as you're spending fixing those bugs in your
> > orbital simulator I would have written it right the first time. ;)
>
> Wow, you have the coding equivalent of hundreds of thousands of highly
> paid programmers? That too would be a neat trick :
No, more like 3-5. How many programmer hours does it take to write
your orbital simulator?
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DLL_hell
>
> I'm sure Dr. Schweiger wants to talk to you right away.
>
> Just take an old ME computer with an AGP slot, put a 32 MB AGP graphics
> card in it, and load up Orbiter with all the med res stuff you can find.
>
> You'll be greatly surprised. I'm surprised you haven't done it yet.
>
> To answer your previous question, it does it in a DX7 sort of way.
>
> Since you are such a hotshot programmer, get onto Sourceforge and
> download the beta and start writing DX10 code for it right away!
Let me run the thing first and see if it has any value for me.
> The Orbiter community is anxiously awaiting your arrival!
I'm busy with CCSDS stuff right now. Frames and packets.
> You ain't got nothin on Henry Spencer, Eric.
I never claimed to. In fact that is about as goofy as me telling you
that you have nothing on Steve Wozniack.
> Here are the 'Henry Spencer' specs :
>
> An eMachines 300 with a Trigem Delhi III motherboard, updated with Jan
> Jan Steunebrink's BIOS (it takes two BIOS updates from the original) and
> then upgraded to a 1.6 Volt AMD K6-3+ overclocked and overvolted to run
> at 600 MHz (I haven't actually done that yet) with a 10 Mbit ISA network
> card, an a PCI nVidia GeForce 4 MX-400 and Adaptec SCSI bus controller,
> and all the K6-2 and VIA or ALI utilities (depending on whatever board).
Sounds lile a $50 system from a thrift store. LOL!!
(No offense, Henry).
I know and like the AMD K6 series. I own a few chips myself and my
Linux box has one in it. You'll like this. My Linux box has an Asus MB
(forget spec #) that has the orginal AT KB connector, but it runs at
over 500 MHz, using a AMD K6 processor. I'm pretty sure it has an AGP
slot as well. It has been awhile since I have been inside the thing.
I am thinking about upgrading to a dual 1 GHz Intel MB for my Linux
box. But all my time these days is being taken up by my Sun Blade
2000: http://www.sun.com/desktop/workstation/sunblade2000/
(Sorry, didn't mean to brag so loudly. <BSEG>)
> http://compatlist.k6plus.com/
>
> http://web.inter.nl.net/hcc/J.Steunebrink/k6plus.htm
>
> http://www.e4allupgraders.info/dir1/motherboards/socket7/delhi3.shtml
Socket 7 was cool. I have since gone on...
> Like I said, this is the slowest computer in my shop, but the most
> collectable, useful and beloved computer around. I'm building another.
Put Linux on the damn thing! At least people will WANT to use the
thing in years to come.
> There are lots of ways to do this with an old super socket seven board
> with an AGP slot, but it wouldn't be as cute or elegant as the Henry.
>
> I am so very grateful to Henry Spencer for bringing to my attention the
> 'Henry Spencer Effect', the analysis of which resulted in this machine.
>
> I also just refurbished an eMachines EOne. Anybody remember that baby?
eMachines? Isn't that one of the cheapest and least reliable
systems?!
> Apple Computer was so threatened by that, they sued eMachines and won!
Why did Apple sue?
Eric Chomko
> Eric Chomko wrote:
[...]
> >> When was the last time you fried a boot ROM or BIOS?
>
> > Fried or burned? Frying means made unusable due to shorting out the
> > PROM. Like most electronic components there usually is a nasty burnt
> > odor. Burning means transferring a software program to an EPROM via an
> > EPROM burner to create a piece of firmware that gets placed into a
> > socket to execute low-level code usually during power on boot up or
> > reset.
>
> Ever use your tongue as a capacitance tester?
Nope, I know who to read the farad values on a capacitor.
> > I have fried many electronic components but never a PROM. The last
> > PROM I burned was a copy of S-Bug in my SWTPC 6809 system (circa 1979)
> > as a backup. The chip was a 2716 EPROM.
>
> > Ever build a prototype board? I have. I made a 32 KB RAM card using a
> > single 32 KB by 8 bit SRAM chip, some 7400 series glue logic, 8 bit
> > latch, 7805 voltage regulator all on a SS-50 prototype board. Soldered
> > every joint and it worked! I am actually in the process of building a
> > similar PROM board.
>
> Dude, that is so mid 70s. Get yourself a good programmer.
For what I need it for my ISA-8 EPROM burner works just fine. It was
made in the 80s after the IBM PC came out. In fact, why do you need
one, don't you use flash EPROMS these days? Isn't your burner obsolete
too? Just less obsolete. :)
> >>> Oh, and as much time as you're spending fixing those bugs in your
> >>> orbital simulator I would have written it right the first time. ;)
> >> Wow, you have the coding equivalent of hundreds of thousands of highly
> >> paid programmers? That too would be a neat trick :
>
> > No, more like 3-5. How many programmer hours does it take to write
> > your orbital simulator?
>
> Let's see, his first release was 2000, he probably had a year or two
> into it at that point, let's call it 10 man years. And he claimed it
> didn't take off until he opened up the API and brought everyone else on
> board, that was at the five year mark or so, and now he's planning on
> opening up the DX graphics so that he can concentrate on the physics.
>
> So let's say 50 man years.
Big project. How come it isn't as good as Carina Software's Voyager
program?
http://www.carinasoft.com/
>
> That's your challenge, bring that number down.
No thanks. I saw the program and it isn't a lot of fun to use. Don't
get me wrong, it is cool and all,
but I'd rather spend $200 on the Voyager (4.5) program. I used a
Voyager II program back in the early 90s and it was
a great program back then. They have only added to it over the years.
>
> Or alternatively, try 8 core implementations using the Orbiter model.
>
> Remember, something like this barely flies on the Henry Spencer.
>
> This thing will maximally work any CPU you feed it to.
You mean after you port it. You are aware that at the machine code
level all processors are different, right?
> >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DLL_hell
>
> >> I'm sure Dr. Schweiger wants to talk to you right away.
>
> >> Just take an old ME computer with an AGP slot, put a 32 MB AGP graphics
> >> card in it, and load up Orbiter with all the med res stuff you can find.
>
> >> You'll be greatly surprised. I'm surprised you haven't done it yet.
>
> >> To answer your previous question, it does it in a DX7 sort of way.
>
> >> Since you are such a hotshot programmer, get onto Sourceforge and
> >> download the beta and start writing DX10 code for it right away!
>
> > Let me run the thing first and see if it has any value for me.
>
> Go for it. Soon. You won't be disappointed.
I wasn't overly impressed either. Download Voyager 4 demo and check it
out as a comparison.
> >> The Orbiter community is anxiously awaiting your arrival!
>
> > I'm busy with CCSDS stuff right now. Frames and packets.
>
> Too busy to fly orbiter? Even I took the time to sort it out.
I downloaded the base version and the SDK as well. It wasn't something
I had to have.
> Here is the frankencoder :
>
> http://www.orbithangar.com/searchid.php?ID=2210
>
> >> You ain't got nothin on Henry Spencer, Eric.
>
> > I never claimed to. In fact that is about as goofy as me telling you
> > that you have nothing on Steve Wozniack.
>
> Of course not, I didn't turn my frequency counter into a 500 million
> dollar business. I only claim to vaguely remember being there.
Same here. I used to sell Apple IIs and Commodore PETs and Sol-20s.
> I'll admit it, I didn't even invest in Intel when I saw RAM chips
> exponentially growing in size in the backs of electronics magazines.
>
> Didn't I tell you? I'm originally an RF guy.
>
> Motorola! That's my problem.
What that they sold their semiconductor business to Freescale?
> Surely you know about Nicolet Instruments.
Nope. What do they make?
>
> We had an entirely different mindset back then, it was geographical.
> It's nice to see RF making a bit of resurgence nowadays.
As wireless.
> We don't build our own SSB transceivers anymore.
Or computers.
> >> Here are the 'Henry Spencer' specs :
>
> >> An eMachines 300 with a Trigem Delhi III motherboard, updated with Jan
> >> Jan Steunebrink's BIOS (it takes two BIOS updates from the original) and
> >> then upgraded to a 1.6 Volt AMD K6-3+ overclocked and overvolted to run
> >> at 600 MHz (I haven't actually done that yet) with a 10 Mbit ISA network
> >> card, an a PCI nVidia GeForce 4 MX-400 and Adaptec SCSI bus controller,
> >> and all the K6-2 and VIA or ALI utilities (depending on whatever board).
>
> > Sounds lile a $50 system from a thrift store. LOL!!
>
> Five bucks. All the cards I either got for free or a buck.
Impressive.
> The computer I found sitting in the rain and mud just over a year ago.
>
> > (No offense, Henry).
>
> >>http://www.k6plus.com/
>
> > I know and like the AMD K6 series. I own a few chips myself and my
> > Linux box has one in it. You'll like this. My Linux box has an Asus MB
> > (forget spec #) that has the orginal AT KB connector, but it runs at
> > over 500 MHz, using a AMD K6 processor. I'm pretty sure it has an AGP
> > slot as well. It has been awhile since I have been inside the thing.
>
> Look it up on the list. Update the BIOS and put an AMD k6-2+ in it.
Why? Will it make the Linux work better?
> With the AGP slot even a Pentium II will fly like crazy.
It does okay.
> Actually, that's my second favorite computer, but it's a hair faster
> than the Spencer. It's collectability derives from the Ultra Cool
> Computer City Logo Case. That's an underclocked 450 Pentium II running
> at 66 MHz in an original Intel AL440LX, overclocked to 360 with SoftFSB.
> That has a small case fan but no processor fan, just the big heat sink.
>
> I had great luck with a GTS Pro, 30 FPS.
>
> > I am thinking about upgrading to a dual 1 GHz Intel MB for my Linux
> > box. But all my time these days is being taken up by my Sun Blade
> > 2000:http://www.sun.com/desktop/workstation/sunblade2000/
>
> > (Sorry, didn't mean to brag so loudly. <BSEG>)
>
> Retro is cool, people all over the world are doing this.
My Sun Blade really isn't retro, though it is about 6 years old now.
I'm running Solaris 9 on it,
but plan to upgrade to Solaris 10, as I just received the DVD in the
mail.
> >>http://compatlist.k6plus.com/
>
> >>http://web.inter.nl.net/hcc/J.Steunebrink/k6plus.htm
>
> >>http://www.e4allupgraders.info/dir1/motherboards/socket7/delhi3.shtml
>
> > Socket 7 was cool. I have since gone on...
>
> Super socket seven was even cooler. I've moved on as well, tracking down
> the Henry Spencer effect was the last thing I did in this area, after
> that I took the whole pile of socket 7 boards and a bunch of peripherals
> and gave them to an artist to make some sort of sculpture.
>
> Back then you couldn't get much cooler than 0.18 microns at 1.6 volts.
>
> >> Like I said, this is the slowest computer in my shop, but the most
> >> collectable, useful and beloved computer around. I'm building another.
>
> > Put Linux on the damn thing! At least people will WANT to use the
> > thing in years to come.
>
> Write a linux orbiter and I will.
You mean no one has ported the Windows version over to Linux yet?! I
bet you could do that!
> >> There are lots of ways to do this with an old super socket seven board
> >> with an AGP slot, but it wouldn't be as cute or elegant as the Henry.
>
> >> I am so very grateful to Henry Spencer for bringing to my attention the
> >> 'Henry Spencer Effect', the analysis of which resulted in this machine.
>
> >> I also just refurbished an eMachines EOne. Anybody remember that baby?
>
> > eMachines? Isn't that one of the cheapest and least reliable
> > systems?!
>
> >> Apple Computer was so threatened by that, they sued eMachines and won!
>
> > Why did Apple sue?
>
> Because it vaguely looked like an IMac, except faster and cheaper and
> cooler all around, plus it ran Windows. It's really a cool computer :
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EOne
>
> Anyways, Eric, your computers will be worth more than my computers, but
> my computers will minimally fly orbiter and stream jazz and crunch text
> and wiki and google for many years to come. The trick is a quiet fan, or
> even better, no fan at all.
>
> Before you know it, another 10 years will have passed you by.
Sounds like a Pink Floyd lyric.
> Ten years Eric, and you too could be another Google.
I'd be happy with just more than I have now.
> Think it through, Eric, you can do it!
>
> How much will your computers be worth in ten years?
More than they are right now. :)
Eric Chomko
> Eric Chomko wrote:
> > On Sep 8, 8:55 pm, kT <cos...@lifeform.org> wrote:
> >> Eric Chomko wrote:
>
> > [...]
>
> >>>> When was the last time you fried a boot ROM or BIOS?
> >>> Fried or burned? Frying means made unusable due to shorting out the
> >>> PROM. Like most electronic components there usually is a nasty burnt
> >>> odor. Burning means transferring a software program to an EPROM via an
> >>> EPROM burner to create a piece of firmware that gets placed into a
> >>> socket to execute low-level code usually during power on boot up or
> >>> reset.
> >> Ever use your tongue as a capacitance tester?
>
> > Nope, I know who to read the farad values on a capacitor.
>
Designed and built. I took a more modern version of memory and made a
replacement of an older board which required 64 chips instead of the 1
I used. It works!
>
> Download Orbiter.
>
> I can help, to get started properly you'll need :
>
> Orbiter
> Orbiter SDK
> Earth Level 10
> KSC Medium Resolution
> Hires Map MFD
> Launch MFD
> OrbiterSound
> A simple SSTO addon with Spacecraft3 and a custom dll.
>
> Here is mine :
>
> http://webpages.charter.net/tsiolkovsky/http://webpages.charter.net/tsiolkovsky/DeltaV.zip
>
> All the instructions are in there, plus a soundtrack for the flight.
Soundtrack?! Surely this is a groupup's toy?
Check out Voyager 4 demo. It even has a solar neighborhood of stars
where you can rotate and spin in 3D and zoom in and out between 6 and
1500 parsecs. Try THAT with Orbiter.
> If you just want to read about a typical flight :
>
> http://webpages.charter.net/tsiolkovsky/DeltaV_Flight_Instructions.doc
>
> Unfortunately, this doesn't run on Windows XP yet due to the recently
> discovered DLL Hell problem, but I'll surely fix that problem shortly.
>
> http://orbiter-forum.com/showthread.php?p=26977
>
> That's been bothering me for a year and a half now, but I just haven't
> had the time to look into it, and I rarely use Windows XP, obviously.
XP is probably more statble that any Windows OS at this point.
> The DLL problem has been around for a long time, but I didn't understand
> how it was causing this Windows XP problem. It's much easier solved in
> Windows ME by just loading the VC++ redistributables, or by physically
> inserting these two dll files into the Orbiter subdirectory :
>
> mscvp71.dll and mscvr71.dll
>
> The problem appears to be generic to VC++ 2005 Express running on older
> computers. Everything is much faster and smoother on Windows ME anyways.
ME is the last of the line of non-NT based Windows. It is a dead-end.
Fat32 sucks and NTFS is barely better.
> Here is the C++ Compiler Wiki :
>
> http://www.orbiterwiki.org/wiki/Free_Compiler_Setup
>
> Good luck! Get back to me when you get it all sorted out.
I try and avoid Windows programming if I can help it. DOS and Perl are
exceptions.
I'll check out your Orbiter customizations, but if I want to play
spaceman I really don't need a craft per se and would simply just want
to check out the view, if you know what I mean.
Eric Chomko
> Eric Chomko wrote:
> > On Sep 9, 11:57 am, kT <cos...@lifeform.org> wrote:
> >> Eric Chomko wrote:
> >>> On Sep 8, 8:55 pm, kT <cos...@lifeform.org> wrote:
> >>>> Eric Chomko wrote:
> >>> [...]
> >>>>>> When was the last time you fried a boot ROM or BIOS?
> >>>>> Fried or burned? Frying means made unusable due to shorting out the
> >>>>> PROM. Like most electronic components there usually is a nasty burnt
> >>>>> odor. Burning means transferring a software program to an EPROM via an
> >>>>> EPROM burner to create a piece of firmware that gets placed into a
> >>>>> socket to execute low-level code usually during power on boot up or
> >>>>> reset.
> >>>> Ever use your tongue as a capacitance tester?
> >>> Nope, I know who to read the farad values on a capacitor.
> >> So you've never actually designed a circuit then.
>
> > Designed and built. I took a more modern version of memory and made a
> > replacement of an older board which required 64 chips instead of the 1
> > I used. It works!
>
>
> I usually just pull them out of the trash, but whatever.
>
You aren't going to pull a memory board which uses the SS-50 bus out
of the trash unless you get really, really lucky.
>
>
> >> Download Orbiter.
>
> >> I can help, to get started properly you'll need :
>
> >> Orbiter
> >> Orbiter SDK
> >> Earth Level 10
> >> KSC Medium Resolution
> >> Hires Map MFD
> >> Launch MFD
> >> OrbiterSound
> >> A simple SSTO addon with Spacecraft3 and a custom dll.
>
> >> Here is mine :
>
> >>http://webpages.charter.net/tsiolkovsky/http://webpages.charter.net/t...
>
> >> All the instructions are in there, plus a soundtrack for the flight.
>
> > Soundtrack?! Surely this is a groupup's toy?
>
> Who want to fly without music?
>
> You really are a square.
I can listen to music and play the simulator without the simulator
playing the music. I don't want a warp maneuver to warp the quality of
the music.
>
> > Check out Voyager 4 demo. It even has a solar neighborhood of stars
> > where you can rotate and spin in 3D and zoom in and out between 6 and
> > 1500 parsecs. Try THAT with Orbiter.
>
> You just don't get it.
>
> Oh, I get it. You can't get it, because you haven't even tried.
I downloaded Orbiter and flip through a few views.
> >> If you just want to read about a typical flight :
>
> >>http://webpages.charter.net/tsiolkovsky/DeltaV_Flight_Instructions.doc
>
> >> Unfortunately, this doesn't run on Windows XP yet due to the recently
> >> discovered DLL Hell problem, but I'll surely fix that problem shortly.
>
> >>http://orbiter-forum.com/showthread.php?p=26977
>
> >> That's been bothering me for a year and a half now, but I just haven't
> >> had the time to look into it, and I rarely use Windows XP, obviously.
>
> > XP is probably more statble that any Windows OS at this point.
>
> Actually, no, it isn't.
>
> Apparently you are not bootlegging it correctly.
>
Actually, I should have said XP is probably the most supported Windows
OS. 98 is too old and Vista doesn't have a large enough following yet.
> >> The DLL problem has been around for a long time, but I didn't understand
> >> how it was causing this Windows XP problem. It's much easier solved in
> >> Windows ME by just loading the VC++ redistributables, or by physically
> >> inserting these two dll files into the Orbiter subdirectory :
>
> >> mscvp71.dll and mscvr71.dll
>
> >> The problem appears to be generic to VC++ 2005 Express running on older
> >> computers. Everything is much faster and smoother on Windows ME anyways.
>
> > ME is the last of the line of non-NT based Windows. It is a dead-end.
> > Fat32 sucks and NTFS is barely better.
>
> True, but Orbiter is written using C++ and the Windows API, and Orbiter
> is not a dead end, Until you write an interface, that's what you have.
I am always leary of a system that is strictly Windows-based. At least
Voyager started on a Mac and PC port was done later to make more
money.
> >> Here is the C++ Compiler Wiki :
>
> >>http://www.orbiterwiki.org/wiki/Free_Compiler_Setup
>
> >> Good luck! Get back to me when you get it all sorted out.
>
> > I try and avoid Windows programming if I can help it. DOS and Perl are
> > exceptions.
>
> Then just fly the DeltaGlider IV.
>
> Trying to talk to you is like bashing my head against the wall.
Dude, you're the one that is tied to Windows. You try and create a
sort of maverick/renagade persona, but then are tied to Windows
instead of Mac and/or Unix, Linux, any damn thing other than Windows!
But noooooooo, you think yourself a decent techno-geek and you don't
even know or use Unix as far as I can tell. Sad, really...
> > I'll check out your Orbiter customizations, but if I want to play
> > spaceman I really don't need a craft per se and would simply just want
> > to check out the view, if you know what I mean.
>
> Fine then, the standard installation comes with a whole bunch of
> spacecraft and scenarios, you can view space till the cows come home.
>
> The trick to this whole business is to open your eyes, look at the
> screen and read the words. I admit that is a formidable barrier.
Finding the exit key easily would be a start.
Eric Chomko
>
> It will save you a trip to the dumpster.
Donate the locally. I'm sure someone in the Bahamas will want them.
> >>>> Download Orbiter.
> >>>> I can help, to get started properly you'll need :
> >>>> Orbiter
> >>>> Orbiter SDK
> >>>> Earth Level 10
> >>>> KSC Medium Resolution
> >>>> Hires Map MFD
> >>>> Launch MFD
> >>>> OrbiterSound
> >>>> A simple SSTO addon with Spacecraft3 and a custom dll.
> >>>> Here is mine :
> >>>>http://webpages.charter.net/tsiolkovsky/http://webpages.charter.net/t...
> >>>> All the instructions are in there, plus a soundtrack for the flight.
> >>> Soundtrack?! Surely this is a groupup's toy?
> >> Who want to fly without music?
>
> >> You really are a square.
>
> > I can listen to music and play the simulator without the simulator
> > playing the music. I don't want a warp maneuver to warp the quality of
> > the music.
>
> Fine then, play the music with your preferred media player in the
> background, that works as well. I just prefer OrbiterSound because that
> happens to synch up the preferred music with the preferred flight.
>
> Whatever trips your trigger, Eric, there are more than one way to build
> a RAM array.
Not using a single chip, tho. Pretty much as simple as you can get.
> >>> Check out Voyager 4 demo. It even has a solar neighborhood of stars
> >>> where you can rotate and spin in 3D and zoom in and out between 6 and
> >>> 1500 parsecs. Try THAT with Orbiter.
> >> You just don't get it.
>
> >> Oh, I get it. You can't get it, because you haven't even tried.
>
> > I downloaded Orbiter and flip through a few views.
>
> Good for you then. My work is finished here.
> Then recompile it.
>
> Dr. Schweiger is busy rewriting it to bring it up to more modern
> graphics, POST and flight profile optimization standards. It's a closed
> system Eric, if you can convince him to open it up, go for it, otherwise
> you'll jut have to write your own. That should be easy, right?
>
> >>>> Here is the C++ Compiler Wiki :
> >>>>http://www.orbiterwiki.org/wiki/Free_Compiler_Setup
> >>>> Good luck! Get back to me when you get it all sorted out.
> >>> I try and avoid Windows programming if I can help it. DOS and Perl are
> >>> exceptions.
> >> Then just fly the DeltaGlider IV.
>
> >> Trying to talk to you is like bashing my head against the wall.
>
> > Dude, you're the one that is tied to Windows. You try and create a
> > sort of maverick/renagade persona, but then are tied to Windows
> > instead of Mac and/or Unix, Linux, any damn thing other than Windows!
>
> I didn't do it, the author of the program did it. Take it up with him.
>
I wasn't speaking about Orbiter per se.
> > But noooooooo, you think yourself a decent techno-geek and you don't
> > even know or use Unix as far as I can tell. Sad, really...
>
> That's because Unix sucks as well. I thought perhaps you knew that.
>
No, Unix is much better programming environment than is Windows.
> I write my own programming languages and operating systems, Eric.
You do?! Not THAT I'd like to see.
> >>> I'll check out your Orbiter customizations, but if I want to play
> >>> spaceman I really don't need a craft per se and would simply just want
> >>> to check out the view, if you know what I mean.
> >> Fine then, the standard installation comes with a whole bunch of
> >> spacecraft and scenarios, you can view space till the cows come home.
>
> >> The trick to this whole business is to open your eyes, look at the
> >> screen and read the words. I admit that is a formidable barrier.
>
> > Finding the exit key easily would be a start.
>
> Ok, then, I'm gone. Good luck!
I was speaking about on the Orbiter program.
Eric Chomko
>
> > Dude, you're the one that is tied to Windows. You try and create a
> > sort of maverick/renagade persona, but then are tied to Windows
> > instead of Mac and/or Unix, Linux, any damn thing other than Windows!
>
>
> > even know or use Unix as far as I can tell. Sad, really...
>
Wait, you claim to be inspired by Henry Spencer and yet you claim Unix
sucks. According to wiki's entry on Henry he is quite knowledgable in
Unix and C as well. How can you claim to have a Henry Spencer machine
that runs just Windows?! No dude, it would at least have a duel boot
and one of the OS's would be a Unix variant (Linux perhaps?). And you
would have a decent C complier as well.
> I write my own programming languages and operating systems, Eric.
>
I'd rather look as those than Orbiter. Let's have a look at Elifritz
Works(TM).
kT
CNTL-Q, same as Stellarium. Read the docs.
It's not in keymap.cfg because it is hard coded I suppose.
Eric Chomko
> Eric Chomko wrote:
> > On Sep 10, 1:03 pm, kT <cos...@lifeform.org> wrote:
> >> Eric Chomko wrote:
> > [...]
> >>>> Trying to talk to you is like bashing my head against the wall.
> >>> Dude, you're the one that is tied to Windows. You try and create a
> >>> sort of maverick/renagade persona, but then are tied to Windows
> >>> instead of Mac and/or Unix, Linux, any damn thing other than Windows!
> >> I didn't do it, the author of the program did it. Take it up with him.
>
> >>> But noooooooo, you think yourself a decent techno-geek and you don't
> >>> even know or use Unix as far as I can tell. Sad, really...
> >> That's because Unix sucks as well. I thought perhaps you knew that.
>
> > Wait, you claim to be inspired by Henry Spencer
>
>
> I WAS inspired by Henry with regards to his AMD K6 SCSI UNIX NTTP
> problem. Why would I want to implement something that doesn't work?
Unix works fine, Windows is borken.
>
> > and yet you claim Unix
> > sucks. According to wiki's entry on Henry he is quite knowledgable in
> > Unix and C as well.
>
> Henry claims to be knowledgeable about a lot of stuff.
Actually wiki made the claim.
> > How can you claim to have a Henry Spencer machine
> > that runs just Windows?!
>
> It's an improvement. His previous machine was no longer working.
>
> > No dude, it would at least have a duel boot
> > and one of the OS's would be a Unix variant (Linux perhaps?). And you
> > would have a decent C complier as well.
>
> That would be a waste of time. Even tracking down Henry's problem was a
> waste of time. The only reason I did it was that I had a stack of old
> Socket 7 boards and CPUs with which to experiment with, and I was
> feeling in an experimental mood in the middle of the winter.
>
> >> I write my own programming languages and operating systems, Eric.
> > I'd rather look as those than Orbiter. Let's have a look at Elifritz
> > Works(TM).
>
> Usually when somebody asks that I just post a copy of my 6502 assembler.
>
> I recall the entire system recompiled itself from 256 - 256 byte blocks
> into an 8K nucleus, in roughly a minute or so on the Woz's 8 bit floppy
> disk, but took several minutes on the serial VIC-1541. As with any 16
> bit Forth, the entire recompilable operating system fits into 16 KBytes.
>
> : AS ( n) CONSTANT DOES> @ ;
> : IS ( n) CONSTANT DOES> @ C, ;
> : TO ( n) CONSTANT DOES> @ C, , ;
>
> HEX ( Were these some page zero tricks?)
>
> D0 AS U D1 AS U' ( User)
> D2 AS S D3 AS S' ( Data Stack)
> D4 AS R D5 AS R' ( Return Stack)
> D6 AS I D7 AS I' ( Instruction Pointer)
> D8 AS W D9 AS W' ( Word Pointer)
> DA AS C DB AS C' ( Code Pointer)
> DC AS N DD AS N' ( Number Pointer?)
> DE AS Y DF AS Y' ( Indirect Pointer?)
>
> HEX ( Refer to the 6502 technical reference manuals.)
>
> 08 IS PHP 28 IS PLP 48 IS PHA 68 IS PLA
> A8 IS TAY 98 IS TYA AA IS TAX 8A IS TXA
> 88 IS DEY C8 IS INY CA IS DEX E8 IS INX
> BA IS TSX 9A IS TXS
> 18 IS CLC 38 IS SEC 58 IS CLI 78 IS SEI
> B8 IS CLV D8 IS CLD F8 IS SED EA IS NOP
> 40 IS RTI 60 IS RTS 00 IS BRK
> 09 AS A 09 AS # ( make sure HEX 0A is written as such.)
> 05 AS Z 15 AS Z) ( page zero tricks)
>
> 0D AS AB ( Be careful here, this could be misinterpreted as HEX.)
> 1D AS +X 19 AS +Y
> 01 AS X) 11 AS Y)
>
> DECIMAL ( The following definition demonstrates uncarefulness.)
>
> : CW, ( n n) DUP 15 AND AB = SWAP +Y = OR IF , ELSE C, THEN ;
> : AW, ( n) DUP A = IF DROP ELSE CW, THEN ;
> : /# ( n - n) DUP # = IF 8 - THEN ;
>
> : EIGHT ( n) CONSTANT DOES> @ OVER + C, CW, ;
> : FIVE ( n) CONSTANT DOES> @ OVER 1+ + C, AW, ;
> : FOUR ( n) CONSTANT DOES> @ OVER /# 1+ + C, CW, ;
> : THREE ( n) CONSTANT DOES> @ OVER /# 1- + C, CW, ;
>
> HEX ( Refer to the 6502 technical reference manuals.)
>
> 00 EIGHT ORA 20 EIGHT AND 40 EIGHT EOR 60 EIGHT ADC
> 80 EIGHT STA A0 EIGHT LDA C0 EIGHT CMP E0 EIGHT SBC
> 00 FIVE ASL 20 FIVE ROL 40 FIVE LSR 60 FIVE ROR
> 80 FOUR STX A0 FOUR LDX C0 FOUR DEC E0 FOUR INC
> 80 THREE STY A0 THREE LDY C0 THREE CPY E0 THREE CPX
> 20 THREE BIT ( The Cosmic Opcode, which I never used once.)
>
> 20 TO JSR 4C TO JMP 6C TO JMPI
>
> 10 AS 0< 50 AS VS 90 AS CS D0 AS 0=
>
> : NOT ( n - n) 20 + ;
> : BEGIN ( - a) HERE ;
> : UNTIL ( a n) C, HERE 1+ - C, ;
> : IF ( n - a) C, HERE 0 C, ;
> : THEN ( a) HERE OVER 1+ - SWAP C! ;
> : ELSE ( a - a) 4C C, HERE 0 , SWAP THEN ;
> : ELSETHEN ( a) HERE SWAP ! ; ( Stupid, but it worked.)
>
> ( Inner Interpreter)
>
> CODE EXIT 0 # LDY R Y) LDA I Z STA INY
> R Y) LDA I' Z STA R Z INC R Z INC
>
> LABEL NEXT 0 # LDY I Y) LDA W Z STA INY
> I Y) LDA W' Z STA I Z LDA CLC 2 # ADC
> I Z STA I' Z LDA 0 # ADC I' Z STA
>
> LABEL RUN 0 # LDY W Y) LDA C Z STA INY
> W Y) LDA C' Z STA C JMPI
>
> You'll just have to trust me that this sets the bar for retro cool.
>
> I've already shipped (donated) the whole box of this stuff to Germany,
> to some very interested retro 6502 enthusiasts many years ago, Eric.
I remember the 6502. I designed a 6502 and 6800 dual CPU single board
computer. I got an A on the project.
I recall how the X and Y registers were used for the memory-mapped
video and how simliar the 6501 was to the 6800. In fact I used the
6800 back in those days. Oh and the base page 0 stuff to make the code
smaller. I also recall how the 6809 allowed you to move the base page
through memory and allowed you to address beyond the 64KB memory map
area.